Re: USA: An Occupied Country (Howard Zinn)

Discussion in 'Computer Support' started by Baron Maximillian von Schtuldeworfshiseundurheimh, Oct 15, 2003.

  1. Sir Arthur C.B.E. Wholeflaffers A.S.A. wrote:
    > In article <bmepsa$1q6b$>,
    > says...
    >>
    >> "Then there is the occupation of the United States. I wake up in the
    >> morning, read the newspaper, and feel that we are an occupied
    >> country,
    >> that some alien group has taken over. Those Mexican workers trying to
    >> cross the border--dying in the attempt to evade immigration officials
    >> (ironically, trying to cross into land taken from Mexico by the
    >> United States in 1848)--those Mexican workers are not alien to me.
    >>
    >> "Those millions of people in this country who are not citizens and
    >> therefore, by the Patriot Act, are subject to being pulled out of
    >> their homes and held indefinitely by the FBI, with no constitutional
    >> rights--those people are not alien to me. But this small group of men
    >> who have taken power in Washington, they are alien to me."
    >>
    >> October 2003 Issue
    >>
    >> It Seems to Me Howard Zinn
    >>
    >> An Occupied Country
    >>
    >> It has become clear, very quickly, that Iraq is not a liberated
    >> country, but an occupied country. We became familiar with the term
    >> "occupied country" during World War II. We talked of German-occupied
    >> France, German-occupied Europe. And after the war we spoke of
    >> Soviet-occupied Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Eastern Europe. It was the
    >> Nazis, the Soviets, who occupied other countries.
    >>
    >> Now we are the occupiers. True, we liberated Iraq from Saddam
    >> Hussein,
    >> but not from us. Just as in 1898 we liberated Cuba from Spain, but
    >> not
    >> from us. Spanish tyranny was overthrown, but the United States
    >> established a military base in Cuba, as we are doing in Iraq. U.S.
    >> corporations moved in to Cuba, just as Bechtel and Halliburton and
    >> the
    >> oil corporations are moving into Iraq. The United States was deciding
    >> what kind of constitution Cuba would have, just as our government is
    >> now forming a constitution for Iraq. Not a liberation, an occupation.
    >>
    >> And it is an ugly occupation. On August 7, The New York Times
    >> reported
    >> that U.S. General Ricardo Sanchez in Baghdad was worried about Iraqi
    >> reaction to the occupation. Iraqi leaders who were pro-American were
    >> giving him a message, as he put it: "When you take a father in front
    >> of his family and put a bag over his head and put him on the ground
    >> you have had a significant adverse effect on his dignity and respect
    >> in the eyes of his family." (That's very perceptive.)
    >>
    >> CBS News reported on July 19 that Amnesty International is looking
    >> into a number of cases of suspected torture in Iraq by American
    >> authorities. One such case involves Khraisan al-Aballi, CBS said.
    >> "When American soldiers raided the al-Aballi house, they came in
    >> shooting. . . . They shot and wounded his brother Dureid." U.S.
    >> soldiers took Khraisan, his 80-year-old father, and his brother away.
    >> "Khraisan says his interrogators stripped him naked and kept him
    >> awake
    >> for more than a week, either standing or on his knees, bound hand and
    >> foot, with a bag over his head," CBS reported. Khraisan told CBS he
    >> informed his captors, "I don't know what you want. I don't know what
    >> you want. I have nothing." At one point, "I asked them to kill me,"
    >> Khraisan said. After eight days, they let him and his father go. Paul
    >> Bremer, the U.S. administrator of Iraq, responded, "We are, in fact,
    >> carrying out our international obligations."
    >>
    >> On June 17, two reporters for the Knight Ridder chain wrote about the
    >> Falluja area: "In dozens of interviews during the past five days,
    >> most residents across the area said there was no Ba'athist or Sunni
    >> conspiracy against U.S. soldiers, there were only people ready to
    >> fight because their relatives had been hurt or killed, or they
    >> themselves had been humiliated by home searches and road stops." One
    >> woman said, after her husband was taken from their home because of
    >> empty wooden crates, which they had bought for firewood, that the
    >> United States is guilty of terrorism. "If I find any American
    >> soldiers, I will cut their heads off," she said. According to the
    >> reporters, "Residents in At Agilia--a village north of Baghdad--said
    >> two of their farmers and five others from another village were killed
    >> when U.S. soldiers shot them while they were watering their fields of
    >> sunflowers, tomatoes, and cucumbers."
    >>
    >> Soldiers who are set down in a country where they were told they
    >> would
    >> be welcomed as liberators only to find they are surrounded by a
    >> hostile population become fearful, trigger-happy, and unhappy. We've
    >> been reading the reports of GIs angry at their being kept in Iraq. In
    >> mid-July, an ABC News reporter in Iraq told of being pulled aside by
    >> a sergeant who said to him: "I've got my own 'Most Wanted List.' " He
    >> was referring to the deck of cards the U.S. government published,
    >> featuring Saddam Hussein, his sons, and other wanted members of the
    >> former Iraqi regime. "The aces in my deck are Paul Bremer, Donald
    >> Rumsfeld, George Bush, and Paul Wolfowitz," the sergeant said.
    >>
    >> Such sentiments are becoming known to the American public. In May, a
    >> Gallup Poll reported that only 13 percent of the American public
    >> thought the war was going badly. By July 4, the figure was 42
    >> percent.
    >> By late August, it was 49 percent.
    >>
    >> Then there is the occupation of the United States. I wake up in the
    >> morning, read the newspaper, and feel that we are an occupied
    >> country,
    >> that some alien group has taken over. Those Mexican workers trying to
    >> cross the border--dying in the attempt to evade immigration officials
    >> (ironically, trying to cross into land taken from Mexico by the
    >> United States in 1848)--those Mexican workers are not alien to me.
    >> Those
    >> millions of people in this country who are not citizens and
    >> therefore,
    >> by the Patriot Act, are subject to being pulled out of their homes
    >> and
    >> held indefinitely by the FBI, with no constitutional rights--those
    >> people are not alien to me. But this small group of men who have
    >> taken
    >> power in Washington, they are alien to me.
    >>
    >> I wake up thinking this country is in the grip of a President who was
    >> not elected, who has surrounded himself with thugs in suits who care
    >> nothing about human life abroad or here, who care nothing about
    >> freedom abroad or here, who care nothing about what happens to the
    >> earth, the water, the air. And I wonder what kind of world our
    >> children and grandchildren will inherit. More Americans are beginning
    >> to feel, like the soldiers in Iraq, that something is terribly wrong,
    >> that this is not what we want our country to be.
    >>
    >> More and more every day, the lies are being exposed. And then there
    >> is
    >> the largest lie: that everything the United States does is to be
    >> pardoned because we are engaged in a "war on terrorism." This ignores
    >> the fact that war is itself terrorism, that the barging into people's
    >> homes and taking away family members and subjecting them to torture,
    >> that is terrorism, that invading and bombing other countries does not
    >> give us more security but less security.
    >>
    >> You get some sense of what this government means by the "war on
    >> terrorism" when you examine what Rumsfeld said a year ago when he was
    >> addressing the NATO ministers in Brussels. "There are things that we
    >> know," he said. "And then there are known unknowns. That is to say,
    >> there are things that we now know that we don't know. But there are
    >> also unknown unknowns. There are things we do not know we don't know.
    >> . . . That is, the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. .
    >> . . Simply because you do not have evidence that something exists
    >> does
    >> not mean that you have evidence that it doesn't exist."
    >>
    >> Well, Rumsfeld has clarified things for us.
    >>
    >> That explains why this government, not knowing exactly where to find
    >> the criminals of September 11, will just go ahead and invade and bomb
    >> Afghanistan, killing thousands of people, driving hundreds of
    >> thousands from their homes, and still not know where the criminals
    >> are.
    >>
    >> That explains why the government, not really knowing what weapons
    >> Saddam Hussein is hiding, will invade and bomb Iraq, to the horror of
    >> most of the world, killing thousands of civilians and soldiers and
    >> terrorizing the population.
    >>
    >> That explains why the government, not knowing who are terrorists and
    >> who are not, will put hundreds of people in confinement at Guantanamo
    >> under such conditions that twenty have tried to commit suicide.
    >>
    >> That explains why, not knowing which noncitizens are terrorists, the
    >> Attorney General will take away the constitutional rights of twenty
    >> million of them.
    >>
    >> The so-called war on terrorism is not only a war on innocent people
    >> in
    >> other countries, but it is also a war on the people of the United
    >> States: a war on our liberties, a war on our standard of living. The
    >> wealth of the country is being stolen from the people and handed over
    >> to the super-rich. The lives of our young are being stolen. And the
    >> thieves are in the White House.
    >>
    >> It's interesting to me that polls taken among African Americans have
    >> shown consistently 60 percent opposition to the war in Iraq. Shortly
    >> after Colin Powell made his report to the United Nations on "Weapons
    >> of Mass Destruction," I did a phone interview with an African
    >> American
    >> radio station in Washington, D.C., a program called "GW on the Hill."
    >> After I talked with the host there were eight call-ins. I took notes
    >> on what the callers said:
    >>
    >> John: "What Powell said was political garbage."
    >>
    >> Another caller: "Powell was just playing the game. That's what
    >> happens
    >> when people get into high office."
    >>
    >> Robert: "If we go to war, innocent people will die for no good
    >> reason."
    >>
    >> Kareen: "What Powell said was hogwash. War will not be good for this
    >> country."
    >>
    >> Susan: "What is so good about being a powerful country?"
    >>
    >> Terry: "It's all about oil."
    >>
    >> Another caller: "The U.S. is in search of an empire and it will fall
    >> as the Romans did. Remember when Ali fought Foreman. He seemed asleep
    >> but when he woke up he was ferocious. So will the people wake up."
    >>
    >> It is often said that this Administration can get away with war
    >> because unlike Vietnam, the casualties are few. True, only a few
    >> hundred battle casualties, unlike Vietnam. But battle casualties are
    >> not all. When wars end, the casualties keep mounting up--sickness,
    >> trauma. After the Vietnam War, veterans reported birth defects in
    >> their families due to the Agent Orange spraying in Vietnam. In the
    >> first Gulf War there were only a few hundred battle casualties, but
    >> the Veterans Administration reported recently that in the ten years
    >> following the Gulf War, 8,000 veterans died. About 200,000 of the
    >> 600,000 veterans of the Gulf War filed complaints about illnesses
    >> incurred from the weapons our government used in the war. In the
    >> current war, how many young men and women sent by Bush to liberate
    >> Iraq will come home with related illnesses?
    >>
    >> What is our job? To point all this out.
    >>
    >> Human beings do not naturally support violence and terror. They do so
    >> only when they believe their lives or country are at stake. These
    >> were
    >> not at stake in the Iraq War. Bush lied to the American people about
    >> Saddam and his weapons. And when people learn the truth--as happened
    >> in the course of the Vietnam War--they will turn against the
    >> government. We who are for peace have the support of the rest of the
    >> world. The United States cannot indefinitely ignore the ten million
    >> people who protested around the world on February 15. The power of
    >> government--whatever weapons it possesses, whatever money it has at
    >> its disposal--is fragile. When it loses its legitimacy in the eyes of
    >> its people, its days are numbered.
    >>
    >> We need to engage in whatever nonviolent actions appeal to us. There
    >> is no act too small, no act too bold. The history of social change is
    >> the history of millions of actions, small and large, coming together
    >> at critical points to create a power that governments cannot
    >> suppress.
    >> We find ourselves today at one of those critical points.
    >> Howard Zinn, the author of "A People's History of the United States,"
    >> is a columnist for The Progressive.
    >>
    >> http://www.progressive.org/oct03/zinn1003.html
    >>
    >> Take action: Support http://www.BringThemHomeNow.org
    >> Families of our men and women sent by Bush for his oil war,
    >> who we need to support by sending them back to their home country,
    >> the
    >> USA.
    >>
    >> = = = =
    >> STILL FEELING LIKE THE MAINSTREAM U.S. CORPORATE MEDIA
    >> IS GIVING A FULL HONEST PICTURE OF WHAT'S GOING ON?
    >> = = = =
    >>
    >> Daily online radio show, news reporting: www.DemocracyNow.org
    >>
    >> = = = =
    >>
    >> Sorry we cannot read/reply to most usenet posts but welcome email
    >>
    >> For more information: http://EconomicDemocracy.org/wtc/ (peace)
    >> And http://EconomicDemocracy.org/ (general)
    >>
    >> ANTI-SPAM EMAIL NOTE: For email "info" and "map" don't work. Email
    >> instead to m-a-i-l-m-a-i-l (without the dashes) at
    >> economicdemocracy.org


    ?
    Baron Maximillian von Schtuldeworfshiseundurheimh, Oct 15, 2003
    #1
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  2. Baron  Maximillian von Schtuldeworfshiseundurheimh

    chrisrobin Guest

    dont you mean taken from the over 1 million native indians. they where here
    long before any mexican.

    "Baron Maximillian von Schtuldeworfshiseundurheimhoppen"
    <> wrote in message
    news:wX2jb.613$...
    > Sir Arthur C.B.E. Wholeflaffers A.S.A. wrote:
    > > In article <bmepsa$1q6b$>,
    > > says...
    > >>
    > >> "Then there is the occupation of the United States. I wake up in the
    > >> morning, read the newspaper, and feel that we are an occupied
    > >> country,
    > >> that some alien group has taken over. Those Mexican workers trying to
    > >> cross the border--dying in the attempt to evade immigration officials
    > >> (ironically, trying to cross into land taken from Mexico by the
    > >> United States in 1848)--those Mexican workers are not alien to me.
    > >>
    > >> "Those millions of people in this country who are not citizens and
    > >> therefore, by the Patriot Act, are subject to being pulled out of
    > >> their homes and held indefinitely by the FBI, with no constitutional
    > >> rights--those people are not alien to me. But this small group of men
    > >> who have taken power in Washington, they are alien to me."
    > >>
    > >> October 2003 Issue
    > >>
    > >> It Seems to Me Howard Zinn
    > >>
    > >> An Occupied Country
    > >>
    > >> It has become clear, very quickly, that Iraq is not a liberated
    > >> country, but an occupied country. We became familiar with the term
    > >> "occupied country" during World War II. We talked of German-occupied
    > >> France, German-occupied Europe. And after the war we spoke of
    > >> Soviet-occupied Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Eastern Europe. It was the
    > >> Nazis, the Soviets, who occupied other countries.
    > >>
    > >> Now we are the occupiers. True, we liberated Iraq from Saddam
    > >> Hussein,
    > >> but not from us. Just as in 1898 we liberated Cuba from Spain, but
    > >> not
    > >> from us. Spanish tyranny was overthrown, but the United States
    > >> established a military base in Cuba, as we are doing in Iraq. U.S.
    > >> corporations moved in to Cuba, just as Bechtel and Halliburton and
    > >> the
    > >> oil corporations are moving into Iraq. The United States was deciding
    > >> what kind of constitution Cuba would have, just as our government is
    > >> now forming a constitution for Iraq. Not a liberation, an occupation.
    > >>
    > >> And it is an ugly occupation. On August 7, The New York Times
    > >> reported
    > >> that U.S. General Ricardo Sanchez in Baghdad was worried about Iraqi
    > >> reaction to the occupation. Iraqi leaders who were pro-American were
    > >> giving him a message, as he put it: "When you take a father in front
    > >> of his family and put a bag over his head and put him on the ground
    > >> you have had a significant adverse effect on his dignity and respect
    > >> in the eyes of his family." (That's very perceptive.)
    > >>
    > >> CBS News reported on July 19 that Amnesty International is looking
    > >> into a number of cases of suspected torture in Iraq by American
    > >> authorities. One such case involves Khraisan al-Aballi, CBS said.
    > >> "When American soldiers raided the al-Aballi house, they came in
    > >> shooting. . . . They shot and wounded his brother Dureid." U.S.
    > >> soldiers took Khraisan, his 80-year-old father, and his brother away.
    > >> "Khraisan says his interrogators stripped him naked and kept him
    > >> awake
    > >> for more than a week, either standing or on his knees, bound hand and
    > >> foot, with a bag over his head," CBS reported. Khraisan told CBS he
    > >> informed his captors, "I don't know what you want. I don't know what
    > >> you want. I have nothing." At one point, "I asked them to kill me,"
    > >> Khraisan said. After eight days, they let him and his father go. Paul
    > >> Bremer, the U.S. administrator of Iraq, responded, "We are, in fact,
    > >> carrying out our international obligations."
    > >>
    > >> On June 17, two reporters for the Knight Ridder chain wrote about the
    > >> Falluja area: "In dozens of interviews during the past five days,
    > >> most residents across the area said there was no Ba'athist or Sunni
    > >> conspiracy against U.S. soldiers, there were only people ready to
    > >> fight because their relatives had been hurt or killed, or they
    > >> themselves had been humiliated by home searches and road stops." One
    > >> woman said, after her husband was taken from their home because of
    > >> empty wooden crates, which they had bought for firewood, that the
    > >> United States is guilty of terrorism. "If I find any American
    > >> soldiers, I will cut their heads off," she said. According to the
    > >> reporters, "Residents in At Agilia--a village north of Baghdad--said
    > >> two of their farmers and five others from another village were killed
    > >> when U.S. soldiers shot them while they were watering their fields of
    > >> sunflowers, tomatoes, and cucumbers."
    > >>
    > >> Soldiers who are set down in a country where they were told they
    > >> would
    > >> be welcomed as liberators only to find they are surrounded by a
    > >> hostile population become fearful, trigger-happy, and unhappy. We've
    > >> been reading the reports of GIs angry at their being kept in Iraq. In
    > >> mid-July, an ABC News reporter in Iraq told of being pulled aside by
    > >> a sergeant who said to him: "I've got my own 'Most Wanted List.' " He
    > >> was referring to the deck of cards the U.S. government published,
    > >> featuring Saddam Hussein, his sons, and other wanted members of the
    > >> former Iraqi regime. "The aces in my deck are Paul Bremer, Donald
    > >> Rumsfeld, George Bush, and Paul Wolfowitz," the sergeant said.
    > >>
    > >> Such sentiments are becoming known to the American public. In May, a
    > >> Gallup Poll reported that only 13 percent of the American public
    > >> thought the war was going badly. By July 4, the figure was 42
    > >> percent.
    > >> By late August, it was 49 percent.
    > >>
    > >> Then there is the occupation of the United States. I wake up in the
    > >> morning, read the newspaper, and feel that we are an occupied
    > >> country,
    > >> that some alien group has taken over. Those Mexican workers trying to
    > >> cross the border--dying in the attempt to evade immigration officials
    > >> (ironically, trying to cross into land taken from Mexico by the
    > >> United States in 1848)--those Mexican workers are not alien to me.
    > >> Those
    > >> millions of people in this country who are not citizens and
    > >> therefore,
    > >> by the Patriot Act, are subject to being pulled out of their homes
    > >> and
    > >> held indefinitely by the FBI, with no constitutional rights--those
    > >> people are not alien to me. But this small group of men who have
    > >> taken
    > >> power in Washington, they are alien to me.
    > >>
    > >> I wake up thinking this country is in the grip of a President who was
    > >> not elected, who has surrounded himself with thugs in suits who care
    > >> nothing about human life abroad or here, who care nothing about
    > >> freedom abroad or here, who care nothing about what happens to the
    > >> earth, the water, the air. And I wonder what kind of world our
    > >> children and grandchildren will inherit. More Americans are beginning
    > >> to feel, like the soldiers in Iraq, that something is terribly wrong,
    > >> that this is not what we want our country to be.
    > >>
    > >> More and more every day, the lies are being exposed. And then there
    > >> is
    > >> the largest lie: that everything the United States does is to be
    > >> pardoned because we are engaged in a "war on terrorism." This ignores
    > >> the fact that war is itself terrorism, that the barging into people's
    > >> homes and taking away family members and subjecting them to torture,
    > >> that is terrorism, that invading and bombing other countries does not
    > >> give us more security but less security.
    > >>
    > >> You get some sense of what this government means by the "war on
    > >> terrorism" when you examine what Rumsfeld said a year ago when he was
    > >> addressing the NATO ministers in Brussels. "There are things that we
    > >> know," he said. "And then there are known unknowns. That is to say,
    > >> there are things that we now know that we don't know. But there are
    > >> also unknown unknowns. There are things we do not know we don't know.
    > >> . . . That is, the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. .
    > >> . . Simply because you do not have evidence that something exists
    > >> does
    > >> not mean that you have evidence that it doesn't exist."
    > >>
    > >> Well, Rumsfeld has clarified things for us.
    > >>
    > >> That explains why this government, not knowing exactly where to find
    > >> the criminals of September 11, will just go ahead and invade and bomb
    > >> Afghanistan, killing thousands of people, driving hundreds of
    > >> thousands from their homes, and still not know where the criminals
    > >> are.
    > >>
    > >> That explains why the government, not really knowing what weapons
    > >> Saddam Hussein is hiding, will invade and bomb Iraq, to the horror of
    > >> most of the world, killing thousands of civilians and soldiers and
    > >> terrorizing the population.
    > >>
    > >> That explains why the government, not knowing who are terrorists and
    > >> who are not, will put hundreds of people in confinement at Guantanamo
    > >> under such conditions that twenty have tried to commit suicide.
    > >>
    > >> That explains why, not knowing which noncitizens are terrorists, the
    > >> Attorney General will take away the constitutional rights of twenty
    > >> million of them.
    > >>
    > >> The so-called war on terrorism is not only a war on innocent people
    > >> in
    > >> other countries, but it is also a war on the people of the United
    > >> States: a war on our liberties, a war on our standard of living. The
    > >> wealth of the country is being stolen from the people and handed over
    > >> to the super-rich. The lives of our young are being stolen. And the
    > >> thieves are in the White House.
    > >>
    > >> It's interesting to me that polls taken among African Americans have
    > >> shown consistently 60 percent opposition to the war in Iraq. Shortly
    > >> after Colin Powell made his report to the United Nations on "Weapons
    > >> of Mass Destruction," I did a phone interview with an African
    > >> American
    > >> radio station in Washington, D.C., a program called "GW on the Hill."
    > >> After I talked with the host there were eight call-ins. I took notes
    > >> on what the callers said:
    > >>
    > >> John: "What Powell said was political garbage."
    > >>
    > >> Another caller: "Powell was just playing the game. That's what
    > >> happens
    > >> when people get into high office."
    > >>
    > >> Robert: "If we go to war, innocent people will die for no good
    > >> reason."
    > >>
    > >> Kareen: "What Powell said was hogwash. War will not be good for this
    > >> country."
    > >>
    > >> Susan: "What is so good about being a powerful country?"
    > >>
    > >> Terry: "It's all about oil."
    > >>
    > >> Another caller: "The U.S. is in search of an empire and it will fall
    > >> as the Romans did. Remember when Ali fought Foreman. He seemed asleep
    > >> but when he woke up he was ferocious. So will the people wake up."
    > >>
    > >> It is often said that this Administration can get away with war
    > >> because unlike Vietnam, the casualties are few. True, only a few
    > >> hundred battle casualties, unlike Vietnam. But battle casualties are
    > >> not all. When wars end, the casualties keep mounting up--sickness,
    > >> trauma. After the Vietnam War, veterans reported birth defects in
    > >> their families due to the Agent Orange spraying in Vietnam. In the
    > >> first Gulf War there were only a few hundred battle casualties, but
    > >> the Veterans Administration reported recently that in the ten years
    > >> following the Gulf War, 8,000 veterans died. About 200,000 of the
    > >> 600,000 veterans of the Gulf War filed complaints about illnesses
    > >> incurred from the weapons our government used in the war. In the
    > >> current war, how many young men and women sent by Bush to liberate
    > >> Iraq will come home with related illnesses?
    > >>
    > >> What is our job? To point all this out.
    > >>
    > >> Human beings do not naturally support violence and terror. They do so
    > >> only when they believe their lives or country are at stake. These
    > >> were
    > >> not at stake in the Iraq War. Bush lied to the American people about
    > >> Saddam and his weapons. And when people learn the truth--as happened
    > >> in the course of the Vietnam War--they will turn against the
    > >> government. We who are for peace have the support of the rest of the
    > >> world. The United States cannot indefinitely ignore the ten million
    > >> people who protested around the world on February 15. The power of
    > >> government--whatever weapons it possesses, whatever money it has at
    > >> its disposal--is fragile. When it loses its legitimacy in the eyes of
    > >> its people, its days are numbered.
    > >>
    > >> We need to engage in whatever nonviolent actions appeal to us. There
    > >> is no act too small, no act too bold. The history of social change is
    > >> the history of millions of actions, small and large, coming together
    > >> at critical points to create a power that governments cannot
    > >> suppress.
    > >> We find ourselves today at one of those critical points.
    > >> Howard Zinn, the author of "A People's History of the United States,"
    > >> is a columnist for The Progressive.
    > >>
    > >> http://www.progressive.org/oct03/zinn1003.html
    > >>
    > >> Take action: Support http://www.BringThemHomeNow.org
    > >> Families of our men and women sent by Bush for his oil war,
    > >> who we need to support by sending them back to their home country,
    > >> the
    > >> USA.
    > >>
    > >> = = = =
    > >> STILL FEELING LIKE THE MAINSTREAM U.S. CORPORATE MEDIA
    > >> IS GIVING A FULL HONEST PICTURE OF WHAT'S GOING ON?
    > >> = = = =
    > >>
    > >> Daily online radio show, news reporting: www.DemocracyNow.org
    > >>
    > >> = = = =
    > >>
    > >> Sorry we cannot read/reply to most usenet posts but welcome email
    > >>
    > >> For more information: http://EconomicDemocracy.org/wtc/ (peace)
    > >> And http://EconomicDemocracy.org/ (general)
    > >>
    > >> ANTI-SPAM EMAIL NOTE: For email "info" and "map" don't work. Email
    > >> instead to m-a-i-l-m-a-i-l (without the dashes) at
    > >> economicdemocracy.org

    >
    > ?
    >
    >
    chrisrobin, Oct 15, 2003
    #2
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  3. Baron  Maximillian von Schtuldeworfshiseundurheimh

    2560 Guest

    So now do you really believe that Columbus discovered America? How do you
    discover a country where people are already living? Simple, distort the
    history, LOL



    "chrisrobin" <> wrote in message
    news:bmio6t$mpodh$-berlin.de...
    | dont you mean taken from the over 1 million native indians. they where
    here
    | long before any mexican.
    |
    | "Baron Maximillian von Schtuldeworfshiseundurheimhoppen"
    | <> wrote in message
    | news:wX2jb.613$...
    | > Sir Arthur C.B.E. Wholeflaffers A.S.A. wrote:
    | > > In article <bmepsa$1q6b$>,
    | > > says...
    | > >>
    | > >> "Then there is the occupation of the United States. I wake up in the
    | > >> morning, read the newspaper, and feel that we are an occupied
    | > >> country,
    | > >> that some alien group has taken over. Those Mexican workers trying to
    | > >> cross the border--dying in the attempt to evade immigration officials
    | > >> (ironically, trying to cross into land taken from Mexico by the
    | > >> United States in 1848)--those Mexican workers are not alien to me.
    | > >>
    | > >> "Those millions of people in this country who are not citizens and
    | > >> therefore, by the Patriot Act, are subject to being pulled out of
    | > >> their homes and held indefinitely by the FBI, with no constitutional
    | > >> rights--those people are not alien to me. But this small group of men
    | > >> who have taken power in Washington, they are alien to me."
    | > >>
    | > >> October 2003 Issue
    | > >>
    | > >> It Seems to Me Howard Zinn
    | > >>
    | > >> An Occupied Country
    | > >>
    | > >> It has become clear, very quickly, that Iraq is not a liberated
    | > >> country, but an occupied country. We became familiar with the term
    | > >> "occupied country" during World War II. We talked of German-occupied
    | > >> France, German-occupied Europe. And after the war we spoke of
    | > >> Soviet-occupied Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Eastern Europe. It was the
    | > >> Nazis, the Soviets, who occupied other countries.
    | > >>
    | > >> Now we are the occupiers. True, we liberated Iraq from Saddam
    | > >> Hussein,
    | > >> but not from us. Just as in 1898 we liberated Cuba from Spain, but
    | > >> not
    | > >> from us. Spanish tyranny was overthrown, but the United States
    | > >> established a military base in Cuba, as we are doing in Iraq. U.S.
    | > >> corporations moved in to Cuba, just as Bechtel and Halliburton and
    | > >> the
    | > >> oil corporations are moving into Iraq. The United States was deciding
    | > >> what kind of constitution Cuba would have, just as our government is
    | > >> now forming a constitution for Iraq. Not a liberation, an occupation.
    | > >>
    | > >> And it is an ugly occupation. On August 7, The New York Times
    | > >> reported
    | > >> that U.S. General Ricardo Sanchez in Baghdad was worried about Iraqi
    | > >> reaction to the occupation. Iraqi leaders who were pro-American were
    | > >> giving him a message, as he put it: "When you take a father in front
    | > >> of his family and put a bag over his head and put him on the ground
    | > >> you have had a significant adverse effect on his dignity and respect
    | > >> in the eyes of his family." (That's very perceptive.)
    | > >>
    | > >> CBS News reported on July 19 that Amnesty International is looking
    | > >> into a number of cases of suspected torture in Iraq by American
    | > >> authorities. One such case involves Khraisan al-Aballi, CBS said.
    | > >> "When American soldiers raided the al-Aballi house, they came in
    | > >> shooting. . . . They shot and wounded his brother Dureid." U.S.
    | > >> soldiers took Khraisan, his 80-year-old father, and his brother away.
    | > >> "Khraisan says his interrogators stripped him naked and kept him
    | > >> awake
    | > >> for more than a week, either standing or on his knees, bound hand and
    | > >> foot, with a bag over his head," CBS reported. Khraisan told CBS he
    | > >> informed his captors, "I don't know what you want. I don't know what
    | > >> you want. I have nothing." At one point, "I asked them to kill me,"
    | > >> Khraisan said. After eight days, they let him and his father go. Paul
    | > >> Bremer, the U.S. administrator of Iraq, responded, "We are, in fact,
    | > >> carrying out our international obligations."
    | > >>
    | > >> On June 17, two reporters for the Knight Ridder chain wrote about the
    | > >> Falluja area: "In dozens of interviews during the past five days,
    | > >> most residents across the area said there was no Ba'athist or Sunni
    | > >> conspiracy against U.S. soldiers, there were only people ready to
    | > >> fight because their relatives had been hurt or killed, or they
    | > >> themselves had been humiliated by home searches and road stops." One
    | > >> woman said, after her husband was taken from their home because of
    | > >> empty wooden crates, which they had bought for firewood, that the
    | > >> United States is guilty of terrorism. "If I find any American
    | > >> soldiers, I will cut their heads off," she said. According to the
    | > >> reporters, "Residents in At Agilia--a village north of Baghdad--said
    | > >> two of their farmers and five others from another village were killed
    | > >> when U.S. soldiers shot them while they were watering their fields of
    | > >> sunflowers, tomatoes, and cucumbers."
    | > >>
    | > >> Soldiers who are set down in a country where they were told they
    | > >> would
    | > >> be welcomed as liberators only to find they are surrounded by a
    | > >> hostile population become fearful, trigger-happy, and unhappy. We've
    | > >> been reading the reports of GIs angry at their being kept in Iraq. In
    | > >> mid-July, an ABC News reporter in Iraq told of being pulled aside by
    | > >> a sergeant who said to him: "I've got my own 'Most Wanted List.' " He
    | > >> was referring to the deck of cards the U.S. government published,
    | > >> featuring Saddam Hussein, his sons, and other wanted members of the
    | > >> former Iraqi regime. "The aces in my deck are Paul Bremer, Donald
    | > >> Rumsfeld, George Bush, and Paul Wolfowitz," the sergeant said.
    | > >>
    | > >> Such sentiments are becoming known to the American public. In May, a
    | > >> Gallup Poll reported that only 13 percent of the American public
    | > >> thought the war was going badly. By July 4, the figure was 42
    | > >> percent.
    | > >> By late August, it was 49 percent.
    | > >>
    | > >> Then there is the occupation of the United States. I wake up in the
    | > >> morning, read the newspaper, and feel that we are an occupied
    | > >> country,
    | > >> that some alien group has taken over. Those Mexican workers trying to
    | > >> cross the border--dying in the attempt to evade immigration officials
    | > >> (ironically, trying to cross into land taken from Mexico by the
    | > >> United States in 1848)--those Mexican workers are not alien to me.
    | > >> Those
    | > >> millions of people in this country who are not citizens and
    | > >> therefore,
    | > >> by the Patriot Act, are subject to being pulled out of their homes
    | > >> and
    | > >> held indefinitely by the FBI, with no constitutional rights--those
    | > >> people are not alien to me. But this small group of men who have
    | > >> taken
    | > >> power in Washington, they are alien to me.
    | > >>
    | > >> I wake up thinking this country is in the grip of a President who was
    | > >> not elected, who has surrounded himself with thugs in suits who care
    | > >> nothing about human life abroad or here, who care nothing about
    | > >> freedom abroad or here, who care nothing about what happens to the
    | > >> earth, the water, the air. And I wonder what kind of world our
    | > >> children and grandchildren will inherit. More Americans are beginning
    | > >> to feel, like the soldiers in Iraq, that something is terribly wrong,
    | > >> that this is not what we want our country to be.
    | > >>
    | > >> More and more every day, the lies are being exposed. And then there
    | > >> is
    | > >> the largest lie: that everything the United States does is to be
    | > >> pardoned because we are engaged in a "war on terrorism." This ignores
    | > >> the fact that war is itself terrorism, that the barging into people's
    | > >> homes and taking away family members and subjecting them to torture,
    | > >> that is terrorism, that invading and bombing other countries does not
    | > >> give us more security but less security.
    | > >>
    | > >> You get some sense of what this government means by the "war on
    | > >> terrorism" when you examine what Rumsfeld said a year ago when he was
    | > >> addressing the NATO ministers in Brussels. "There are things that we
    | > >> know," he said. "And then there are known unknowns. That is to say,
    | > >> there are things that we now know that we don't know. But there are
    | > >> also unknown unknowns. There are things we do not know we don't know.
    | > >> . . . That is, the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. .
    | > >> . . Simply because you do not have evidence that something exists
    | > >> does
    | > >> not mean that you have evidence that it doesn't exist."
    | > >>
    | > >> Well, Rumsfeld has clarified things for us.
    | > >>
    | > >> That explains why this government, not knowing exactly where to find
    | > >> the criminals of September 11, will just go ahead and invade and bomb
    | > >> Afghanistan, killing thousands of people, driving hundreds of
    | > >> thousands from their homes, and still not know where the criminals
    | > >> are.
    | > >>
    | > >> That explains why the government, not really knowing what weapons
    | > >> Saddam Hussein is hiding, will invade and bomb Iraq, to the horror of
    | > >> most of the world, killing thousands of civilians and soldiers and
    | > >> terrorizing the population.
    | > >>
    | > >> That explains why the government, not knowing who are terrorists and
    | > >> who are not, will put hundreds of people in confinement at Guantanamo
    | > >> under such conditions that twenty have tried to commit suicide.
    | > >>
    | > >> That explains why, not knowing which noncitizens are terrorists, the
    | > >> Attorney General will take away the constitutional rights of twenty
    | > >> million of them.
    | > >>
    | > >> The so-called war on terrorism is not only a war on innocent people
    | > >> in
    | > >> other countries, but it is also a war on the people of the United
    | > >> States: a war on our liberties, a war on our standard of living. The
    | > >> wealth of the country is being stolen from the people and handed over
    | > >> to the super-rich. The lives of our young are being stolen. And the
    | > >> thieves are in the White House.
    | > >>
    | > >> It's interesting to me that polls taken among African Americans have
    | > >> shown consistently 60 percent opposition to the war in Iraq. Shortly
    | > >> after Colin Powell made his report to the United Nations on "Weapons
    | > >> of Mass Destruction," I did a phone interview with an African
    | > >> American
    | > >> radio station in Washington, D.C., a program called "GW on the Hill."
    | > >> After I talked with the host there were eight call-ins. I took notes
    | > >> on what the callers said:
    | > >>
    | > >> John: "What Powell said was political garbage."
    | > >>
    | > >> Another caller: "Powell was just playing the game. That's what
    | > >> happens
    | > >> when people get into high office."
    | > >>
    | > >> Robert: "If we go to war, innocent people will die for no good
    | > >> reason."
    | > >>
    | > >> Kareen: "What Powell said was hogwash. War will not be good for this
    | > >> country."
    | > >>
    | > >> Susan: "What is so good about being a powerful country?"
    | > >>
    | > >> Terry: "It's all about oil."
    | > >>
    | > >> Another caller: "The U.S. is in search of an empire and it will fall
    | > >> as the Romans did. Remember when Ali fought Foreman. He seemed asleep
    | > >> but when he woke up he was ferocious. So will the people wake up."
    | > >>
    | > >> It is often said that this Administration can get away with war
    | > >> because unlike Vietnam, the casualties are few. True, only a few
    | > >> hundred battle casualties, unlike Vietnam. But battle casualties are
    | > >> not all. When wars end, the casualties keep mounting up--sickness,
    | > >> trauma. After the Vietnam War, veterans reported birth defects in
    | > >> their families due to the Agent Orange spraying in Vietnam. In the
    | > >> first Gulf War there were only a few hundred battle casualties, but
    | > >> the Veterans Administration reported recently that in the ten years
    | > >> following the Gulf War, 8,000 veterans died. About 200,000 of the
    | > >> 600,000 veterans of the Gulf War filed complaints about illnesses
    | > >> incurred from the weapons our government used in the war. In the
    | > >> current war, how many young men and women sent by Bush to liberate
    | > >> Iraq will come home with related illnesses?
    | > >>
    | > >> What is our job? To point all this out.
    | > >>
    | > >> Human beings do not naturally support violence and terror. They do so
    | > >> only when they believe their lives or country are at stake. These
    | > >> were
    | > >> not at stake in the Iraq War. Bush lied to the American people about
    | > >> Saddam and his weapons. And when people learn the truth--as happened
    | > >> in the course of the Vietnam War--they will turn against the
    | > >> government. We who are for peace have the support of the rest of the
    | > >> world. The United States cannot indefinitely ignore the ten million
    | > >> people who protested around the world on February 15. The power of
    | > >> government--whatever weapons it possesses, whatever money it has at
    | > >> its disposal--is fragile. When it loses its legitimacy in the eyes of
    | > >> its people, its days are numbered.
    | > >>
    | > >> We need to engage in whatever nonviolent actions appeal to us. There
    | > >> is no act too small, no act too bold. The history of social change is
    | > >> the history of millions of actions, small and large, coming together
    | > >> at critical points to create a power that governments cannot
    | > >> suppress.
    | > >> We find ourselves today at one of those critical points.
    | > >> Howard Zinn, the author of "A People's History of the United States,"
    | > >> is a columnist for The Progressive.
    | > >>
    | > >> http://www.progressive.org/oct03/zinn1003.html
    | > >>
    | > >> Take action: Support http://www.BringThemHomeNow.org
    | > >> Families of our men and women sent by Bush for his oil war,
    | > >> who we need to support by sending them back to their home country,
    | > >> the
    | > >> USA.
    | > >>
    | > >> = = = =
    | > >> STILL FEELING LIKE THE MAINSTREAM U.S. CORPORATE MEDIA
    | > >> IS GIVING A FULL HONEST PICTURE OF WHAT'S GOING ON?
    | > >> = = = =
    | > >>
    | > >> Daily online radio show, news reporting: www.DemocracyNow.org
    | > >>
    | > >> = = = =
    | > >>
    | > >> Sorry we cannot read/reply to most usenet posts but welcome email
    | > >>
    | > >> For more information: http://EconomicDemocracy.org/wtc/ (peace)
    | > >> And http://EconomicDemocracy.org/ (general)
    | > >>
    | > >> ANTI-SPAM EMAIL NOTE: For email "info" and "map" don't work. Email
    | > >> instead to m-a-i-l-m-a-i-l (without the dashes) at
    | > >> economicdemocracy.org
    | >
    | > ?
    | >
    | >
    |
    |
    2560, Oct 15, 2003
    #3
  4. 2560 wrote:
    > So now do you really believe that Columbus discovered America? How do
    > you discover a country where people are already living? Simple,
    > distort the history, LOL
    >
    >


    Of course he discovered it you pillock - Europeans had no idea of its
    existence until Columbus saw it. The ingdgenous peoples couldn't discover it
    could they because they already lived there.

    Gravity has existed since the formation of the earth - no-one KNEW about it
    until Newton "discovered" it.

    Prat.
    Gordon Burgess-Parker, Oct 15, 2003
    #4
  5. Baron  Maximillian von Schtuldeworfshiseundurheimh

    Paul Brewer Guest

    Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:

    >
    > Of course he discovered it you pillock - Europeans had no idea of its
    > existence until Columbus saw it. The ingdgenous peoples couldn't
    > discover it could they because they already lived there.
    >

    Where d'ja think they came from? The "ingdgenous" <sic> people had to
    discover it before they inhabited it. Actually probably walked to it
    across the land-bridge which existed at that time, from Asia.

    > Gravity has existed since the formation of the earth - no-one KNEW
    > about it until Newton "discovered" it.
    >

    Europeans "discovered" the Continent of America *long* before Columbus
    did. To be exact,Norse expeditions to North America, starting with
    Bjarni Herjolfsson in 986AD are well-established historically.

    > Prat.


    It appears you are, absolutely!

    --
    Paul-B Reply-to address is spamtrap... use paul @ streetka dot biz
    without the spaces
    Paul Brewer, Oct 15, 2003
    #5
  6. Paul Brewer wrote:
    > Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:
    >
    >>
    >> Of course he discovered it you pillock - Europeans had no idea of its
    >> existence until Columbus saw it. The ingdgenous peoples couldn't
    >> discover it could they because they already lived there.
    >>

    > Where d'ja think they came from? The "ingdgenous" <sic> people had to
    > discover it before they inhabited it. Actually probably walked to it
    > across the land-bridge which existed at that time, from Asia.


    The fact that they were already living there doesn't mean that Columbus
    didn't discover it for himself, did it?

    >
    >> Gravity has existed since the formation of the earth - no-one KNEW
    >> about it until Newton "discovered" it.
    >>

    > Europeans "discovered" the Continent of America *long* before Columbus
    > did. To be exact,Norse expeditions to North America, starting with
    > Bjarni Herjolfsson in 986AD are well-established historically.



    So why was most of WESTERN Europe ignorant of it then?

    >
    >> Prat.

    >
    > It appears you are, absolutely!
    Gordon Burgess-Parker, Oct 15, 2003
    #6
  7. Baron  Maximillian von Schtuldeworfshiseundurheimh

    Bruno Guest

    "Gordon Burgess-Parker" <> wrote in message
    news:bmkha6$mb3c6$-berlin.de...
    > Paul Brewer wrote:
    > > Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:
    > >
    > >>
    > >> Of course he discovered it you pillock - Europeans had no idea of its
    > >> existence until Columbus saw it. The ingdgenous peoples couldn't
    > >> discover it could they because they already lived there.
    > >>

    > > Where d'ja think they came from? The "ingdgenous" <sic> people had to
    > > discover it before they inhabited it. Actually probably walked to it
    > > across the land-bridge which existed at that time, from Asia.

    >
    > The fact that they were already living there doesn't mean that Columbus
    > didn't discover it for himself, did it?
    >
    > >
    > >> Gravity has existed since the formation of the earth - no-one KNEW
    > >> about it until Newton "discovered" it.
    > >>

    > > Europeans "discovered" the Continent of America *long* before Columbus
    > > did. To be exact,Norse expeditions to North America, starting with
    > > Bjarni Herjolfsson in 986AD are well-established historically.

    >
    >
    > So why was most of WESTERN Europe ignorant of it then?
    >
    > >
    > >> Prat.

    > >
    > > It appears you are, absolutely!

    >
    >

    So Dan Quale *did* discover the Internet!
    Bruno, Oct 15, 2003
    #7
  8. Baron  Maximillian von Schtuldeworfshiseundurheimh

    Paul Brewer Guest

    Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:

    >
    > So why was most of WESTERN Europe ignorant of it then?


    Actually most of *Western* Europe wasn't ignorant of it... the
    existance of a large land-mass to the West of Europe had been
    well-documented for many years, from the tenth century until Columbus'
    voyage in the fifteenth.

    The myth that the Continent of America was "discovered" by Columbus was
    just that... a myth.

    Just to flavour the pot still further, there is significant evidence
    that an Irish monk, Brendan, who was born around 484AD in county Kerry,
    discovered America and established a community in West Virginia. A
    leading scholar, Tim Severin, wrote, in 1979:

    "More conclusive evidence of Irish exploration of North America has
    come to the fore in West Virginia. There, stone carvings have been
    discovered that have been dated between 500 and 1000 A.D. Analysis by
    archaeologist Dr. Robert Pyle and a leading language expert Dr. Barry
    Fell indicate that they are written in Old Irish using the Ogham
    alphabet. According to Dr. Fell, "the West Virginia Ogham texts are the
    oldest Ogham inscriptions from anywhere in the world. They exhibit the
    grammar and vocabulary of Old Irish in a manner previously unknown in
    such early rock-cut inscriptions in any Celtic language." Dr. Fell goes
    on to speculate that, "It seems possible that the scribes that cut the
    West Virginia inscriptions may have been Irish missionaries in the wake
    of Brendan's voyage, for these inscriptions are Christian. The early
    Christian symbols of piety, such as the various Chi-Rho monograms (Name
    of Christ) and the Dextra Dei (Right Hand of God) appear at the sites
    together with the Ogham texts."

    So there you go.

    Columbus's claim to fame was that he was the first person to establish
    a regular pattern of trading between the Old World and the New.

    --
    Paul-B Reply-to address is spamtrap... use paul @ streetka dot biz
    without the spaces
    Paul Brewer, Oct 15, 2003
    #8
  9. As you said... Until the Europeans discovered it, it was ALWAYS
    there, so how do you discover something that's already there ?
    ..
    On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 21:20:07 +0100, "Gordon Burgess-Parker"
    <> wrote:

    >2560 wrote:
    >> So now do you really believe that Columbus discovered America? How do
    >> you discover a country where people are already living? Simple,
    >> distort the history, LOL
    >>
    >>

    >
    >Of course he discovered it you pillock - Europeans had no idea of its
    >existence until Columbus saw it. The ingdgenous peoples couldn't discover it
    >could they because they already lived there.
    >
    >Gravity has existed since the formation of the earth - no-one KNEW about it
    >until Newton "discovered" it.
    >
    >Prat.
    >
    This is Rip Off UK, Oct 16, 2003
    #9
  10. Baron  Maximillian von Schtuldeworfshiseundurheimh

    Liz Guest

    Absolutely, using Intel's new POTATOE chip.


    "Bruno" <> wrote

    > So Dan Quale *did* discover the Internet!



    8< - - - - -
    Liz, Oct 16, 2003
    #10
  11. This is Rip Off UK wrote:
    > As you said... Until the Europeans discovered it, it was ALWAYS
    > there, so how do you discover something that's already there ?
    > .
    > On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 21:20:07 +0100, "Gordon Burgess-Parker"
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >> 2560 wrote:
    >>> So now do you really believe that Columbus discovered America? How
    >>> do
    >>> you discover a country where people are already living? Simple,
    >>> distort the history, LOL
    >>>
    >>>

    >>
    >> Of course he discovered it you pillock - Europeans had no idea of its
    >> existence until Columbus saw it. The ingdgenous peoples couldn't
    >> discover it could they because they already lived there.
    >>
    >> Gravity has existed since the formation of the earth - no-one KNEW
    >> about it until Newton "discovered" it.
    >>
    >> Prat.
    Baron Maximillian von Schtuldeworfshiseundurheimh, Oct 16, 2003
    #11
  12. Baron  Maximillian von Schtuldeworfshiseundurheimh

    MrMel Guest

    "Gordon Burgess-Parker" <> wrote in message
    news:bmka5s$nn0o7$-berlin.de...
    > 2560 wrote:
    > > So now do you really believe that Columbus discovered America? How do
    > > you discover a country where people are already living? Simple,
    > > distort the history, LOL
    > >
    > >

    >
    > Of course he discovered it you pillock - Europeans had no idea of its
    > existence until Columbus saw it. The ingdgenous peoples couldn't discover

    it
    > could they because they already lived there.
    >
    > Gravity has existed since the formation of the earth - no-one KNEW about

    it
    > until Newton "discovered" it.
    >
    > Prat



    Does that mean that Newton owns it because he discovered it?

    MrMel
    MrMel, Oct 16, 2003
    #12
  13. Baron  Maximillian von Schtuldeworfshiseundurheimh

    MrMel Guest

    That is kind of a silly question, we 'discover' everything we know, ( with
    the exception 'sic', of a few,)
    we learn everyday, new discoverys of marvelous attributes of our world, our
    universe, our existense.
    There is nothing that, 'in time', will not be discovered. We are not ''all
    knowing yet", and it may be
    500 million hundred years,(dumb quess), before we even begin to to
    understanding our purpose in this existense, providing of coarse, we
    survive. Look at all the critters and creatures that have supposedly
    over the past millions and billions of years that have died out. Do you
    really think that you are the
    dominant life-form that will survive in this universe? If you want to be
    honest with yourself, you don't
    know either. There may be higher levels of exsistence that we do not even
    comprehend yet. But, I believe
    that we will, when it's time.

    MrMel






    <This is Rip Off UK> wrote in message
    news:...
    > As you said... Until the Europeans discovered it, it was ALWAYS
    > there, so how do you discover something that's already there ?
    > .
    > On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 21:20:07 +0100, "Gordon Burgess-Parker"
    > <> wrote:
    >
    > >2560 wrote:
    > >> So now do you really believe that Columbus discovered America? How do
    > >> you discover a country where people are already living? Simple,
    > >> distort the history, LOL
    > >>
    > >>

    > >
    > >Of course he discovered it you pillock - Europeans had no idea of its
    > >existence until Columbus saw it. The ingdgenous peoples couldn't discover

    it
    > >could they because they already lived there.
    > >
    > >Gravity has existed since the formation of the earth - no-one KNEW about

    it
    > >until Newton "discovered" it.
    > >
    > >Prat.
    > >

    >
    MrMel, Oct 16, 2003
    #13
  14. Baron  Maximillian von Schtuldeworfshiseundurheimh

    Bluejay Guest

    Re: USA: An Occupied Country - TROLL!!

    On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 21:20:07 +0100, "Gordon Burgess-Parker"
    <> wrote:

    >2560 wrote:
    >> So now do you really believe that Columbus discovered America? How do
    >> you discover a country where people are already living? Simple,
    >> distort the history, LOL
    >>
    >>

    >
    >Of course he discovered it you pillock - Europeans had no idea of its
    >existence until Columbus saw it. The ingdgenous peoples couldn't discover

    it
    >could they because they already lived there.
    >
    >Gravity has existed since the formation of the earth - no-one KNEW about

    it
    >until Newton "discovered" it.
    >
    >Prat.
    >

    You people are being trolled by an asshole named averergejoe.

    His story is here:

    http://www.cotse.net/users/bluejay/averagejoe/averagejoe.html


    --
    * Bluejay *

    Here is where to get help setting up QuickSilver
    http://www.cotse.net/users/bluejay/qs/menu.html

    Read About The Frog Who Would Be King
    http://www.cotse.net/users/bluejay/frog/declaration.html

    To use apas during the floods, you need a newsreader with filtering
    capability. Here is a link to a freebie, plus how to setup and use it.
    http://www.cotse.net/users/bluejay/frog/kill-frog-the-punk.html

    alt.privacy.anon-server FAQ
    http://www.cotse.net/users/bluejay/qs/part1.html
    Bluejay, Oct 16, 2003
    #14
  15. Baron  Maximillian von Schtuldeworfshiseundurheimh

    Pepys Guest

    "Gordon Burgess-Parker" <> wrote in message
    news:bmkha6$mb3c6$-berlin.de...

    >
    >
    > So why was most of WESTERN Europe ignorant of it then?
    >


    Choice?

    Most of the world at the moment would prefer to be ignorant of the top half
    of the continent.

    Sam
    Pepys, Oct 16, 2003
    #15
    1. Advertising

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