Re: UPS goes crazy for a few minutes every night at 11pm

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by steve, May 31, 2009.

  1. steve

    steve Guest

    On Fri, 29 May 2009 23:02:45 +1200, ofn01 wrote:

    > I have two UPS's - both APC and both bought brand new. THe first one, a
    > Smart UPS model I've had for quite a while with no issues.
    >
    > The second, I bought just this week seems to have the wierdest quirk.
    >
    > Every night at 11pm it starts flicking between battery and power for
    > about 5 minutes.
    >
    > I have tried it on two different sockets and still get the same issue.
    >
    > Any idea what could cause this?
    >
    > APC have suggested lowering the sensitivity but lowering it from the
    > factory default is not recommended for computer use in the manual?


    Although it's almost certainly ripple control, as others have mentioned,
    there is another possibility. There are plenty of places which assume
    exactly 50Hz for timing purposes. Is the power company is a few cycles
    behind, it speecs things up a bit to ensure exactly the right number of
    cycles per day so the clocks are right. This may also trip UPSes if it's
    way out.

    Well, this is true of the UK, anyway: don't see why it'd be different
    here.

    Steve
    steve, May 31, 2009
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. In message <gvsk0o$9j3$>, steve wrote:

    > There are plenty of places which assume exactly 50Hz for timing purposes.
    > Is the power company is a few cycles behind, it speecs things up a bit to
    > ensure exactly the right number of cycles per day so the clocks are right.


    I've never heard of anybody stupid enough to make such an assumption. Cheap
    quartz-crystal oscillators have only been available for, how long is it,
    half a century ...
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, May 31, 2009
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. steve

    Richard Guest

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    > In message <gvsk0o$9j3$>, steve wrote:
    >
    >> There are plenty of places which assume exactly 50Hz for timing purposes.
    >> Is the power company is a few cycles behind, it speecs things up a bit to
    >> ensure exactly the right number of cycles per day so the clocks are right.

    >
    > I've never heard of anybody stupid enough to make such an assumption. Cheap
    > quartz-crystal oscillators have only been available for, how long is it,
    > half a century ...


    Almost all clock radios count cycles - cheaper then an accurate quartz
    oscilator to just use one of the lines from the transformer to count.

    Also mains powered analog clocks have also done this for years and years.
    Richard, May 31, 2009
    #3
  4. In message <gvsuic$4n9$>, Richard wrote:

    > Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >
    >> In message <gvsk0o$9j3$>, steve wrote:
    >>
    >>> There are plenty of places which assume exactly 50Hz for timing
    >>> purposes. Is the power company is a few cycles behind, it speecs things
    >>> up a bit to ensure exactly the right number of cycles per day so the
    >>> clocks are right.

    >>
    >> I've never heard of anybody stupid enough to make such an assumption.
    >> Cheap quartz-crystal oscillators have only been available for, how long
    >> is it, half a century ...

    >
    > Almost all clock radios count cycles - cheaper then an accurate quartz
    > oscilator to just use one of the lines from the transformer to count.


    Bit difficult to do that on batteries, or through a DC adaptor.

    > Also mains powered analog clocks have also done this for years and years.


    But since when have the power companies been obligated to provide an
    accurate frequency reference?
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, May 31, 2009
    #4
  5. steve

    Richard Guest

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    > In message <gvsuic$4n9$>, Richard wrote:
    >
    >> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>
    >>> In message <gvsk0o$9j3$>, steve wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> There are plenty of places which assume exactly 50Hz for timing
    >>>> purposes. Is the power company is a few cycles behind, it speecs things
    >>>> up a bit to ensure exactly the right number of cycles per day so the
    >>>> clocks are right.
    >>> I've never heard of anybody stupid enough to make such an assumption.
    >>> Cheap quartz-crystal oscillators have only been available for, how long
    >>> is it, half a century ...

    >> Almost all clock radios count cycles - cheaper then an accurate quartz
    >> oscilator to just use one of the lines from the transformer to count.

    >
    > Bit difficult to do that on batteries, or through a DC adaptor.


    Good thing that most cheap clock radios are mains powered then.

    >> Also mains powered analog clocks have also done this for years and years.

    >
    > But since when have the power companies been obligated to provide an
    > accurate frequency reference?


    Its part of the standards for the power supplied.
    Richard, May 31, 2009
    #5
  6. In message <gvt1ee$8d7$>, Richard wrote:

    > Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >
    >> But since when have the power companies been obligated to provide an
    >> accurate frequency reference?

    >
    > Its part of the standards for the power supplied.


    Could you cite a site on which you sighted this ... shite?
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, May 31, 2009
    #6
  7. steve

    greg Guest

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    > But since when have the power companies been obligated to provide an
    > accurate frequency reference?
    >



    It's in the electrical regulations
    greg, May 31, 2009
    #7
  8. steve

    greg Guest

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    > In message <gvt1ee$8d7$>, Richard wrote:
    >
    >> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>
    >>> But since when have the power companies been obligated to provide an
    >>> accurate frequency reference?

    >> Its part of the standards for the power supplied.

    >
    > Could you cite a site on which you sighted this ... shite?
    >


    www.standards.co.nz

    Electricity Regulations 1997,

    55 Frequency
    (1) The frequency of electricity supplied by any person must be
    maintained within 1.5% of 50 hertz, except for momentary
    fluctuations.


    sounds like your the one full of shite now!!
    greg, May 31, 2009
    #8
  9. On Sun, 31 May 2009 19:40:01 +1200, greg <> wrote in
    <news:gvtc8t$r1h$>:

    > Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >> In message <gvt1ee$8d7$>, Richard wrote:
    >>
    >>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> But since when have the power companies been obligated to provide an
    >>>> accurate frequency reference?
    >>> Its part of the standards for the power supplied.

    >>
    >> Could you cite a site on which you sighted this ... shite?
    >>

    >
    > www.standards.co.nz
    >
    > Electricity Regulations 1997,
    >
    > 55 Frequency
    > (1) The frequency of electricity supplied by any person must be
    > maintained within 1.5% of 50 hertz, except for momentary
    > fluctuations.
    >
    > sounds like your the one full of shite now!!


    Hardly news. 'twas ever thus.

    --
    - Nicolaas
    Nicolaas Hawkins, May 31, 2009
    #9
  10. steve

    greg Guest

    Nicolaas Hawkins wrote:
    > On Sun, 31 May 2009 19:40:01 +1200, greg <> wrote in
    > <news:gvtc8t$r1h$>:
    >
    >> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>> In message <gvt1ee$8d7$>, Richard wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> But since when have the power companies been obligated to provide an
    >>>>> accurate frequency reference?
    >>>> Its part of the standards for the power supplied.
    >>> Could you cite a site on which you sighted this ... shite?
    >>>

    >> www.standards.co.nz
    >>
    >> Electricity Regulations 1997,
    >>
    >> 55 Frequency
    >> (1) The frequency of electricity supplied by any person must be
    >> maintained within 1.5% of 50 hertz, except for momentary
    >> fluctuations.
    >>
    >> sounds like your the one full of shite now!!

    >
    > Hardly news. 'twas ever thus.
    >



    gotta agree, wouldn't ever want to be his doctor, imagine the shite
    explosion when the dr. sticks him with a needle!!
    greg, May 31, 2009
    #10
  11. On Sun, 31 May 2009 20:32:40 +1200, greg <> wrote in
    <news:gvtfbl$sot$>:

    > Nicolaas Hawkins wrote:
    >> On Sun, 31 May 2009 19:40:01 +1200, greg <> wrote in
    >> <news:gvtc8t$r1h$>:
    >>
    >>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>>> In message <gvt1ee$8d7$>, Richard wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> But since when have the power companies been obligated to provide an
    >>>>>> accurate frequency reference?
    >>>>> Its part of the standards for the power supplied.
    >>>> Could you cite a site on which you sighted this ... shite?
    >>>>
    >>> www.standards.co.nz
    >>>
    >>> Electricity Regulations 1997,
    >>>
    >>> 55 Frequency
    >>> (1) The frequency of electricity supplied by any person must be
    >>> maintained within 1.5% of 50 hertz, except for momentary
    >>> fluctuations.
    >>>
    >>> sounds like your the one full of shite now!!

    >>
    >> Hardly news. 'twas ever thus.
    >>

    >
    > gotta agree, wouldn't ever want to be his doctor, imagine the shite
    > explosion when the dr. sticks him with a needle!!


    Gee, thanks, Greg. NOT a mental image I need so soon after dinner!

    --
    - Nicolaas
    Nicolaas Hawkins, May 31, 2009
    #11
  12. In message <>, Tim Lawson wrote:

    > On Sun, 31 May 2009 16:31:52 +1200, Lawrence D'Oliveiro
    > <_zealand> wrote:
    >
    >>In message <gvsuic$4n9$>, Richard wrote:
    >>
    >>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> In message <gvsk0o$9j3$>, steve wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> There are plenty of places which assume exactly 50Hz for timing
    >>>>> purposes. Is the power company is a few cycles behind, it speecs
    >>>>> things up a bit to ensure exactly the right number of cycles per day
    >>>>> so the clocks are right.
    >>>>
    >>>> I've never heard of anybody stupid enough to make such an assumption.
    >>>> Cheap quartz-crystal oscillators have only been available for, how long
    >>>> is it, half a century ...
    >>>
    >>> Almost all clock radios count cycles - cheaper then an accurate quartz
    >>> oscilator to just use one of the lines from the transformer to count.

    >>
    >>Bit difficult to do that on batteries, or through a DC adaptor.
    >>
    >>> Also mains powered analog clocks have also done this for years and
    >>> years.

    >>
    >>But since when have the power companies been obligated to provide an
    >>accurate frequency reference?

    >
    > Try Electricity Regulations 1997, regulation 55, subclause 1:
    >
    > "The frequency of electricity supplied by any person must be
    > maintained within 1.5% of 50 hertz, except for momentary
    > fluctuations."


    1) What is 1.5% of 24 hours?
    2) Is there any possible way to stretch the meaning of "exactly 50Hz" to
    include such a discrepancy, that would be usable in a clock radio that
    normal people might be expected to use to wake up for work in the morning?
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, May 31, 2009
    #12
  13. steve

    greg Guest

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    > In message <>, Tim Lawson wrote:
    >
    >> On Sun, 31 May 2009 16:31:52 +1200, Lawrence D'Oliveiro
    >> <_zealand> wrote:
    >>
    >>> In message <gvsuic$4n9$>, Richard wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> In message <gvsk0o$9j3$>, steve wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> There are plenty of places which assume exactly 50Hz for timing
    >>>>>> purposes. Is the power company is a few cycles behind, it speecs
    >>>>>> things up a bit to ensure exactly the right number of cycles per day
    >>>>>> so the clocks are right.
    >>>>> I've never heard of anybody stupid enough to make such an assumption.
    >>>>> Cheap quartz-crystal oscillators have only been available for, how long
    >>>>> is it, half a century ...
    >>>> Almost all clock radios count cycles - cheaper then an accurate quartz
    >>>> oscilator to just use one of the lines from the transformer to count.
    >>> Bit difficult to do that on batteries, or through a DC adaptor.
    >>>
    >>>> Also mains powered analog clocks have also done this for years and
    >>>> years.
    >>> But since when have the power companies been obligated to provide an
    >>> accurate frequency reference?

    >> Try Electricity Regulations 1997, regulation 55, subclause 1:
    >>
    >> "The frequency of electricity supplied by any person must be
    >> maintained within 1.5% of 50 hertz, except for momentary
    >> fluctuations."

    >
    > 1) What is 1.5% of 24 hours?


    hertz means cycles per seconds dumb ****, 50 cycles per second

    > 2) Is there any possible way to stretch the meaning of "exactly 50Hz" to
    > include such a discrepancy, that would be usable in a clock radio that
    > normal people might be expected to use to wake up for work in the morning?
    >


    **** off and get a life moron
    greg, May 31, 2009
    #13
  14. steve

    Enkidu Guest

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    > In message <gvt1ee$8d7$>, Richard wrote:
    >
    >> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>
    >>> But since when have the power companies been obligated to provide an
    >>> accurate frequency reference?

    >> Its part of the standards for the power supplied.

    >
    > Could you cite a site on which you sighted this ... shite?
    >

    See below. I did have a more explicit document but I couldn't find it.

    Cheers,

    Cliff

    http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Utility_frequency

    ----------Quote---------------------
    Long-term stability and clock synchronization

    Regulation of power system frequency for timekeeping accuracy was not
    commonplace until after 1926 and the invention of the electric clock.
    An electric clock is a clock that is powered by electricity instead of
    powered manually or by other sources of energy, specifically in order to
    wind the mainspring or to drive the pendulum or oscillator....
    driven by a synchronous motor. Network operators will regulate the
    daily average frequency so that clocks stay within a few seconds of
    correct time. In practice the nominal frequency is raised or lowered by
    a specific percentage to maintain synchronization. Over the course of a
    day, the average frequency is maintained at the nominal value within a
    few hundred parts per million. In the continental Europe, also referred
    to as mainland Europe or simply the Continent, is the continent of
    Europe, explicitly excluding European islands and, at times, peninsulas....
    an UCTE grid, the deviation between network phase time and UTC is
    calculated at 08:00 each day in a control center in Switzerland
    Switzerland

    Switzerland is a landlocked Swiss Alps country of roughly 7.7 million
    people in Western Europe with an area of 41,285 km?. Switzerland is a
    federal republic consisting of 26 states called Cantons of Switzerland....
    , and the target frequency is then adjusted by up to ±0.02% from 50 Hz
    as needed, to ensure a long-term frequency average of exactly 3600×24×50
    cycles per day is maintained. In North America, whenever the error
    exceeds 2 seconds for the east, 3 seconds for Texas, or 10 seconds for
    the west, a correction of ±0.02 Hz (0.033%) is applied. Time error
    corrections start and end either on the hour or on the half hour. A
    real-time frequency meter for power generation in the United Kingdom
    United Kingdom

    The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, commonly known
    as the United Kingdom , the UK or Britain,is a sovereign state located
    off the northwestern coast of continental Europe....
    is available online.(*) Smaller power systems may not maintain
    frequency with the same degree of accuracy.


    --

    The Internet is interesting in that although the nicknames may change,
    the same old personalities show through.
    Enkidu, Jun 1, 2009
    #14
  15. steve

    Enkidu Guest

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    > In message <>, Tim Lawson
    > wrote:
    >
    >> On Sun, 31 May 2009 16:31:52 +1200, Lawrence D'Oliveiro
    >> <_zealand> wrote:
    >>
    >>> In message <gvsuic$4n9$>, Richard wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> In message <gvsk0o$9j3$>, steve wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> There are plenty of places which assume exactly 50Hz for
    >>>>>> timing purposes. Is the power company is a few cycles
    >>>>>> behind, it speecs things up a bit to ensure exactly the
    >>>>>> right number of cycles per day so the clocks are right.
    >>>>> I've never heard of anybody stupid enough to make such an
    >>>>> assumption. Cheap quartz-crystal oscillators have only been
    >>>>> available for, how long is it, half a century ...
    >>>> Almost all clock radios count cycles - cheaper then an accurate
    >>>> quartz oscilator to just use one of the lines from the
    >>>> transformer to count.
    >>> Bit difficult to do that on batteries, or through a DC adaptor.
    >>>
    >>>> Also mains powered analog clocks have also done this for years
    >>>> and years.
    >>> But since when have the power companies been obligated to provide
    >>> an accurate frequency reference?

    >> Try Electricity Regulations 1997, regulation 55, subclause 1:
    >>
    >> "The frequency of electricity supplied by any person must be
    >> maintained within 1.5% of 50 hertz, except for momentary
    >> fluctuations."

    >
    > 1) What is 1.5% of 24 hours? 2) Is there any possible way to stretch
    > the meaning of "exactly 50Hz" to include such a discrepancy, that
    > would be usable in a clock radio that normal people might be expected
    > to use to wake up for work in the morning?
    >

    That's for people connecting generators to the national grid. The actual
    regulations are in fact much tougher than that, which is merely a
    standard, not a regulation.

    Cheers,

    Cliff

    --

    The Internet is interesting in that although the nicknames may change,
    the same old personalities show through.
    Enkidu, Jun 1, 2009
    #15
  16. On Sun, 31 May 2009 19:11:13 +1200, Lawrence D'Oliveiro
    <_zealand> wrote:

    >In message <gvt1ee$8d7$>, Richard wrote:
    >
    >> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>
    >>> But since when have the power companies been obligated to provide an
    >>> accurate frequency reference?

    >>
    >> Its part of the standards for the power supplied.

    >
    >Could you cite a site on which you sighted this ... shite?


    It's one of the Electricity Commision's functions.

    Look at
    <http://www.electricitycommission.govt.nz/rulesandregs/rules>

    Part C Common Quality contains the following.

    <begin quote>

    2.2.5
    Manage time error
    Act as a reasonable and prudent system operator with the objective of
    ensuring frequency time error is not greater than five seconds of New
    Zealand standard time; and
    2.2.6
    Eliminate time error once a day
    Act as a reasonable and prudent system operator operator with the
    objective of ensuring that at least once every day the frequency time
    error is eliminated.

    <end quote>

    --
    Regards
    Malcolm
    Remove sharp objects to get a valid e-mail address
    Malcolm Moore, Jun 1, 2009
    #16
  17. steve

    greg Guest

    Enkidu wrote:
    > Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >> In message <>, Tim Lawson
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >>> On Sun, 31 May 2009 16:31:52 +1200, Lawrence D'Oliveiro
    >>> <_zealand> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> In message <gvsuic$4n9$>, Richard wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> In message <gvsk0o$9j3$>, steve wrote:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>> There are plenty of places which assume exactly 50Hz for
    >>>>>>> timing purposes. Is the power company is a few cycles
    >>>>>>> behind, it speecs things up a bit to ensure exactly the
    >>>>>>> right number of cycles per day so the clocks are right.
    >>>>>> I've never heard of anybody stupid enough to make such an
    >>>>>> assumption. Cheap quartz-crystal oscillators have only been
    >>>>>> available for, how long is it, half a century ...
    >>>>> Almost all clock radios count cycles - cheaper then an accurate
    >>>>> quartz oscilator to just use one of the lines from the
    >>>>> transformer to count.
    >>>> Bit difficult to do that on batteries, or through a DC adaptor.
    >>>>
    >>>>> Also mains powered analog clocks have also done this for years
    >>>>> and years.
    >>>> But since when have the power companies been obligated to provide
    >>>> an accurate frequency reference?
    >>> Try Electricity Regulations 1997, regulation 55, subclause 1:
    >>>
    >>> "The frequency of electricity supplied by any person must be
    >>> maintained within 1.5% of 50 hertz, except for momentary fluctuations."

    >>
    >> 1) What is 1.5% of 24 hours? 2) Is there any possible way to stretch
    >> the meaning of "exactly 50Hz" to include such a discrepancy, that
    >> would be usable in a clock radio that normal people might be expected
    >> to use to wake up for work in the morning?
    >>

    > That's for people connecting generators to the national grid. The actual
    > regulations are in fact much tougher than that, which is merely a
    > standard, not a regulation.
    >
    > Cheers,
    >
    > Cliff
    >

    at least the tosser lawrence (doesn't that name sound gay?) has shut up
    on the topic.
    greg, Jun 1, 2009
    #17
  18. steve

    greg Guest

    Tim Lawson wrote:
    > On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 18:18:31 +1200, Tim Lawson
    > <tlawson@remove_this.xtra.co.nz> wrote:
    >
    >> On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 11:28:34 +1200, Enkidu <>
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>>> In message <>, Tim Lawson
    >>>> wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> On Sun, 31 May 2009 16:31:52 +1200, Lawrence D'Oliveiro
    >>>>> <_zealand> wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> In message <gvsuic$4n9$>, Richard wrote:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> In message <gvsk0o$9j3$>, steve wrote:
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> There are plenty of places which assume exactly 50Hz for
    >>>>>>>>> timing purposes. Is the power company is a few cycles
    >>>>>>>>> behind, it speecs things up a bit to ensure exactly the
    >>>>>>>>> right number of cycles per day so the clocks are right.
    >>>>>>>> I've never heard of anybody stupid enough to make such an
    >>>>>>>> assumption. Cheap quartz-crystal oscillators have only been
    >>>>>>>> available for, how long is it, half a century ...
    >>>>>>> Almost all clock radios count cycles - cheaper then an accurate
    >>>>>>> quartz oscilator to just use one of the lines from the
    >>>>>>> transformer to count.
    >>>>>> Bit difficult to do that on batteries, or through a DC adaptor.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Also mains powered analog clocks have also done this for years
    >>>>>>> and years.
    >>>>>> But since when have the power companies been obligated to provide
    >>>>>> an accurate frequency reference?
    >>>>> Try Electricity Regulations 1997, regulation 55, subclause 1:
    >>>>>
    >>>>> "The frequency of electricity supplied by any person must be
    >>>>> maintained within 1.5% of 50 hertz, except for momentary
    >>>>> fluctuations."
    >>>> 1) What is 1.5% of 24 hours? 2) Is there any possible way to stretch
    >>>> the meaning of "exactly 50Hz" to include such a discrepancy, that
    >>>> would be usable in a clock radio that normal people might be expected
    >>>> to use to wake up for work in the morning?
    >>>>
    >>> That's for people connecting generators to the national grid. The actual
    >>> regulations are in fact much tougher than that, which is merely a
    >>> standard, not a regulation.
    >>>
    >>> Cheers,
    >>>
    >>> Cliff

    >> Hi:
    >>
    >> Funny that it's called a standard, when it's merely a regulation.
    >>
    >> Where would I find the statutory regulations (they don't seem obvious
    >> with Google searches) and any idea where I'd find indications of what
    >> accuracy is actually achieved?
    >>
    >> As a matter of interest, this link shows the Vector performance for
    >> commercail and industrial customers - their guaranteed frequency
    >> accuracy also appears to be +- 1.5%, which is apparently the required
    >> standard for power utilities in NZ.
    >>
    >> http://www.vectorelectricity.co.nz/...dards/for-commercial-and-industrial-customers
    >>
    >>
    >>

    > Whoops, should have said:
    >
    > Funny that it's called a regulation, when it's merely a standard



    The electrical regulations are legislation, and defined in law, just as
    the traffic regulations are part of the law. The standards are based on
    the law, where the standards are unclear or in conflict the regulations
    take prescient over the standards.
    greg, Jun 1, 2009
    #18
  19. steve

    ~misfit~ Guest

    Somewhere on teh intarwebs greg wrote:
    > Tim Lawson wrote:
    >> On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 18:18:31 +1200, Tim Lawson
    >> <tlawson@remove_this.xtra.co.nz> wrote:
    >>
    >>> On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 11:28:34 +1200, Enkidu
    >>> <> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>>>> In message <>, Tim
    >>>>> Lawson wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> On Sun, 31 May 2009 16:31:52 +1200, Lawrence D'Oliveiro
    >>>>>> <_zealand> wrote:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>> In message <gvsuic$4n9$>, Richard wrote:
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> In message <gvsk0o$9j3$>, steve wrote:
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> There are plenty of places which assume exactly 50Hz for
    >>>>>>>>>> timing purposes. Is the power company is a few cycles
    >>>>>>>>>> behind, it speecs things up a bit to ensure exactly the
    >>>>>>>>>> right number of cycles per day so the clocks are right.
    >>>>>>>>> I've never heard of anybody stupid enough to make such an
    >>>>>>>>> assumption. Cheap quartz-crystal oscillators have only been
    >>>>>>>>> available for, how long is it, half a century ...
    >>>>>>>> Almost all clock radios count cycles - cheaper then an accurate
    >>>>>>>> quartz oscilator to just use one of the lines from the
    >>>>>>>> transformer to count.
    >>>>>>> Bit difficult to do that on batteries, or through a DC adaptor.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> Also mains powered analog clocks have also done this for years
    >>>>>>>> and years.
    >>>>>>> But since when have the power companies been obligated to
    >>>>>>> provide an accurate frequency reference?
    >>>>>> Try Electricity Regulations 1997, regulation 55, subclause 1:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> "The frequency of electricity supplied by any person must be
    >>>>>> maintained within 1.5% of 50 hertz, except for momentary
    >>>>>> fluctuations."
    >>>>> 1) What is 1.5% of 24 hours? 2) Is there any possible way to
    >>>>> stretch the meaning of "exactly 50Hz" to include such a
    >>>>> discrepancy, that would be usable in a clock radio that normal
    >>>>> people might be expected to use to wake up for work in the
    >>>>> morning?
    >>>> That's for people connecting generators to the national grid. The
    >>>> actual regulations are in fact much tougher than that, which is
    >>>> merely a standard, not a regulation.
    >>>>
    >>>> Cheers,
    >>>>
    >>>> Cliff
    >>> Hi:
    >>>
    >>> Funny that it's called a standard, when it's merely a regulation.
    >>>
    >>> Where would I find the statutory regulations (they don't seem
    >>> obvious with Google searches) and any idea where I'd find
    >>> indications of what accuracy is actually achieved?
    >>>
    >>> As a matter of interest, this link shows the Vector performance for
    >>> commercail and industrial customers - their guaranteed frequency
    >>> accuracy also appears to be +- 1.5%, which is apparently the
    >>> required standard for power utilities in NZ.
    >>>
    >>> http://www.vectorelectricity.co.nz/...dards/for-commercial-and-industrial-customers
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>

    >> Whoops, should have said:
    >>
    >> Funny that it's called a regulation, when it's merely a standard

    >
    >
    > The electrical regulations are legislation, and defined in law, just
    > as the traffic regulations are part of the law. The standards are
    > based on the law, where the standards are unclear or in conflict the
    > regulations take prescient over the standards.


    "prescient"? I knew you were going to say that. It sets a new PRECEDENT for
    my ESP.

    That's the trouble with spell-checkers, you need to have some idea of how a
    word is spelled before you run them.
    --
    Shaun.

    "Build a man a fire, and he`ll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and
    he`ll be warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchett, Jingo.
    ~misfit~, Jun 2, 2009
    #19
  20. steve

    greg Guest

    ~misfit~ wrote:
    > Somewhere on teh intarwebs greg wrote:
    >> Tim Lawson wrote:
    >>> On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 18:18:31 +1200, Tim Lawson
    >>> <tlawson@remove_this.xtra.co.nz> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 11:28:34 +1200, Enkidu
    >>>> <> wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>>>>> In message <>, Tim
    >>>>>> Lawson wrote:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>> On Sun, 31 May 2009 16:31:52 +1200, Lawrence D'Oliveiro
    >>>>>>> <_zealand> wrote:
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> In message <gvsuic$4n9$>, Richard wrote:
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> In message <gvsk0o$9j3$>, steve wrote:
    >>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>> There are plenty of places which assume exactly 50Hz for
    >>>>>>>>>>> timing purposes. Is the power company is a few cycles
    >>>>>>>>>>> behind, it speecs things up a bit to ensure exactly the
    >>>>>>>>>>> right number of cycles per day so the clocks are right.
    >>>>>>>>>> I've never heard of anybody stupid enough to make such an
    >>>>>>>>>> assumption. Cheap quartz-crystal oscillators have only been
    >>>>>>>>>> available for, how long is it, half a century ...
    >>>>>>>>> Almost all clock radios count cycles - cheaper then an accurate
    >>>>>>>>> quartz oscilator to just use one of the lines from the
    >>>>>>>>> transformer to count.
    >>>>>>>> Bit difficult to do that on batteries, or through a DC adaptor.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> Also mains powered analog clocks have also done this for years
    >>>>>>>>> and years.
    >>>>>>>> But since when have the power companies been obligated to
    >>>>>>>> provide an accurate frequency reference?
    >>>>>>> Try Electricity Regulations 1997, regulation 55, subclause 1:
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> "The frequency of electricity supplied by any person must be
    >>>>>>> maintained within 1.5% of 50 hertz, except for momentary
    >>>>>>> fluctuations."
    >>>>>> 1) What is 1.5% of 24 hours? 2) Is there any possible way to
    >>>>>> stretch the meaning of "exactly 50Hz" to include such a
    >>>>>> discrepancy, that would be usable in a clock radio that normal
    >>>>>> people might be expected to use to wake up for work in the
    >>>>>> morning?
    >>>>> That's for people connecting generators to the national grid. The
    >>>>> actual regulations are in fact much tougher than that, which is
    >>>>> merely a standard, not a regulation.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Cheers,
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Cliff
    >>>> Hi:
    >>>>
    >>>> Funny that it's called a standard, when it's merely a regulation.
    >>>>
    >>>> Where would I find the statutory regulations (they don't seem
    >>>> obvious with Google searches) and any idea where I'd find
    >>>> indications of what accuracy is actually achieved?
    >>>>
    >>>> As a matter of interest, this link shows the Vector performance for
    >>>> commercail and industrial customers - their guaranteed frequency
    >>>> accuracy also appears to be +- 1.5%, which is apparently the
    >>>> required standard for power utilities in NZ.
    >>>>
    >>>> http://www.vectorelectricity.co.nz/...dards/for-commercial-and-industrial-customers
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>> Whoops, should have said:
    >>>
    >>> Funny that it's called a regulation, when it's merely a standard

    >>
    >> The electrical regulations are legislation, and defined in law, just
    >> as the traffic regulations are part of the law. The standards are
    >> based on the law, where the standards are unclear or in conflict the
    >> regulations take prescient over the standards.

    >
    > "prescient"? I knew you were going to say that. It sets a new PRECEDENT for
    > my ESP.
    >
    > That's the trouble with spell-checkers, you need to have some idea of how a
    > word is spelled before you run them.



    Ok my spel chequer is not very god, ;)
    greg, Jun 2, 2009
    #20
    1. Advertising

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

It takes just 2 minutes to sign up (and it's free!). Just click the sign up button to choose a username and then you can ask your own questions on the forum.
Similar Threads
  1. Replies:
    0
    Views:
    955
  2. Omar
    Replies:
    5
    Views:
    1,047
  3. markm75
    Replies:
    1
    Views:
    403
    Jack \(MVP-Networking\).
    Oct 31, 2007
  4. Richard
    Replies:
    14
    Views:
    585
    Richard Savage
    Jun 1, 2009
  5. Enkidu
    Replies:
    6
    Views:
    596
    Enkidu
    May 31, 2009
Loading...

Share This Page