Re: Two Towers Defective on PS2!!

Discussion in 'DVD Video' started by Black Locust, Sep 1, 2003.

  1. Black Locust

    Black Locust Guest

    In article <>,
    (LASERandDVDfan) wrote:

    > And have you any experience doing work on videogame consoles?
    >
    > If not, then you are not really an authority.


    No of course not. But when you hear the same complaints from hundreds of
    different people, it doesn't really require you to be an authority on
    the matter. Just check the stats on how many people have had to return
    deffective PS2's to Sony. It's a very common and widespread problem.

    > As for cheap drives in the PS-2, it's not really the drive that's problem,
    > but
    > how it's not effectively being isolated from the airflow.


    I never said the drive was a problem for playing games. Only playing
    DVD's do you usually experience trouble with it. Whether this is the
    result of how the data is read from a CD/DVD-Rom disc vs. a DVD
    disc(which is constantly reading the data), I don't know. What I do know
    is everyone would be better off buying a dedicated DVD player instead of
    using a video game console to play DVD's.

    > Of course, if you are really concerned about dust, put a thin layer of foam
    > in
    > front of the front vent openings.


    Why go to such an extreme and silly measure when I can just buy a
    system(Gamecube or Xbox) that simply doesn't have such a major design
    flaw?

    > If the scratch is perpendicular to the track path, then you will likely not
    > have a read problem. However, if the scratch travels parallel, then you are
    > going to have read problems.


    Indeed it was perpendicular. I don't believe I've ever encountered a
    disc that had any sort of significant scratches that traveled parallel.

    > Also, if the scratch is on the lacquer side instead of the irridescent side,
    > the disc is permanently damaged.


    What? Now that's a new one. How could a scratch on the laquer side cause
    read errors of any type? The laser never actually reads from that side
    of the disc.

    > Not really unusual, as Panasonic players usually have excellent defect
    > tracking. My only gripe with Panasonic players is that they tend to have
    > slow
    > layer change intervals.


    That's true. My old player would take anywhere from 2-4 seconds to
    change layers. However my new Panasonic S35 is pretty seamless with it's
    transitions. You know, I've never understood peoples complaints about
    layer changes though. So there's a slight pause. Big fucking deal. If
    the pause lasted 30 seconds I could understand the complaints, but at a
    maximum of 3 or 4 seconds who gives a crap... I swear, some people are
    just too damn picky.

    > Which is what exactly?


    I take a clean rag or t-shirt and dampen it with warm water. I then wrap
    the disc around both sides of the disc(just for good measure - cleaner
    the better!) and pull from the inside out. I do this several times over
    until I get the disc as clean as it was the day it left the factory.

    > Also, the examination of discs before rental began when my brother, father,
    > and
    > sister had rented discs which were scratched enough to the point where none
    > of
    > the players could read them. My fahter's Panasonic DVD-RV41 couldn't read,
    > my
    > Panasonic DVD-A110 couldn't read, my Sony DVP-S360 couldn't read, my Pioneer
    > DVL-700 couldn't read, and my Lite-On 16X DVD-ROM drive with Hollywood Plus
    > couldn't read. I also even purchased a new shrinkwrapped DVD, "Star Trek 2:
    > The Wrath of Khan Directors Edition," and the disc had a scratch on it that
    > kept the TOC from being read on my Sony, Pioneer, and Panasonic A110, and
    > totally froze on the "Paramount" graphic on the Panasonic RV41.


    Damn. You must have rented some horribly damaged discs. I've never seen
    a disc that had taken so much punishment it wouldn't even load up.

    > For the rental discs, that's what I get for renting from a Blockbuster whose
    > main clientele include beatniks wanting butchered fullscreen movies on their
    > "taevae." (zip 32796 / 32780)


    I agree about the beatnik remark, but it should be noted that
    Blockbuster only stocks widescreen versions of their rentals now. Go see
    for yourself.

    > To make matters worse, while adults typically rent DVD Video, adolescents and
    > 20-somethings typically rent games and most don't have any idea what a
    > scratch
    > can do to disrupt the gameplay. Many tend to cause more damage to game discs
    > than videodiscs and it is a problem that is more widespread on all consoles
    > than you think, which was the real question I was asking to begin with.


    That's a good point and a very valid one. I've seen some pretty trashed
    game discs though I've never had any trouble with my rental Gamecube
    discs after cleaning them. One thing to keep in mind is that the market
    for DVD's is MUCH larger than the one for games so generally speaking a
    DVD is going to go through the rounds a lot more than a game ever will.

    > As for optical discs in my personal library, they are all mint. My DVDs
    > (Video
    > and ROM), CDs (Audio and ROM), and LaserDiscs. I have confidence in the
    > defect
    > tracking of my players, but I always place priority to keeping my discs
    > pristine so I wouldn't need extensive error correction and to guarantee that
    > they will read without any issues.


    Likewise. While I haven't experienced any significant problems with
    scratched discs, I still do my best to keep my own personal discs in the
    best condition possible. Always hold them by the sides, never leave them
    lying around out of their cases, etc. For this reason I now have CD's
    that are well over 10 years old and play without a hitch. Hell, I'm so
    anal about it I even try to keep the jewel cases from getting beat up.

    > - Reinhart

    --
    BL
     
    Black Locust, Sep 1, 2003
    #1
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  2. Black Locust

    Jeeters Guest


    > > Also, if the scratch is on the lacquer side instead of the irridescent

    side,
    > > the disc is permanently damaged.

    >
    > What? Now that's a new one. How could a scratch on the laquer side cause
    > read errors of any type? The laser never actually reads from that side
    > of the disc.


    Because the encoded layer that the laser is reading is just under the
    surface of the top laquered side. Just a small gouge throught the laquered
    label side will rip right into the encoding.
    It's the same reason some people recommend not using permantant markers to
    write on burned CDs or DVDs - because some say that the chemicals in the
    marker can sometimes eat through the top layer of the disk right into the
    encoding layer.
     
    Jeeters, Sep 1, 2003
    #2
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  3. >I never said the drive was a problem for playing games. Only playing
    >DVD's do you usually experience trouble with it.


    Then, because the PS-2 isn't the best thing for playing movies, it's a bad
    choice for games?

    >Whether this is the
    >result of how the data is read from a CD/DVD-Rom disc vs. a DVD
    >disc(which is constantly reading the data), I don't know. What I do know is

    everyone would be better off buying a dedicated DVD player instead of
    >using a video game console to play DVD's.
    >


    The problem with playing DVDs with a PS-2 is more in terms of how the DVD Video
    is authored as opposed to being a bad disc drive design. There will be discs
    that have incompatibility issues with the PS-2, and for that matter, even
    regular DVD players. In fact, this has been a problem with many older players
    (Anyone remember problems with the Samsung 709 when playing "The Matrix?") and
    even continues to persist to this day with various modern players (Quite a few
    Disney DVDs being a notable example.).

    However, as you've reiterated before and I agree, a sure way to counter almost
    any compatibility problem with a DVD is to buy a decent stand-alone player,
    preferrably from a reputable Japanese brand.

    >Why go to such an extreme and silly measure when I can just buy a
    >system(Gamecube or Xbox) that simply doesn't have such a major design
    >flaw?


    If you buy an X-Box, be sure to look for a console that uses the Samsung drive.
    The ones that use a Philips drive and a Thomson drive are problematic.

    >What? Now that's a new one. How could a scratch on the laquer side cause
    >read errors of any type? The laser never actually reads from that side
    >of the disc.


    It never reads there, but the lacquer is composed of an acrylic layer that is
    thinner than a stand of human hair. That is all that's there, plus any
    silkscreen printing, to protect this layer from oxidation and physical damage
    to the actual track. Damaging this layer can actually destroy a disc by:

    1. Breeching the seal of the reflective layer, exposing it to the outside air
    which results in oxidation. This can also result in actual delamination of the
    layers in an RSDL dual layer DVD. The seal can be breeched from scratching the
    label side (scraping the lacquer away) to bending the disc (creating hairline
    fractures of the lacquer and even displacing the evaporated metal which
    composes the reflective layer).

    2. Obliteration of portions of the track written on the disc. Take a disc,
    and then take a needle. Run it across the label side. You can actually scrape
    away pieces of the reflective layer!

    Or, push the tip of your fingernail against the label side and move your
    fingertip while pressing. On the irridescent side, you can see the indent from
    the tip of your fingnernail moving across the reflective layer.

    Or, put a piece of scotch tape on the label, and then take the tape off
    quickly. The tape will peel the lacquer layer away.

    >That's true. My old player would take anywhere from 2-4 seconds to
    >change layers. However my new Panasonic S35 is pretty seamless with it's
    >transitions. You know, I've never understood peoples complaints about
    >layer changes though. So there's a slight pause. Big fucking deal.


    Same here. Ironically, one of the worst players I've seen also has some of the
    best layer transition times: Samsung-built players. However, Samsung has
    improved on their quality. Hitachi, Sharp, and even Magnavox either has select
    models or all of their players OEMed by Samsung at this time.

    >If
    >the pause lasted 30 seconds I could understand the complaints, but at a
    >maximum of 3 or 4 seconds who gives a crap... I swear, some people are
    >just too damn picky.


    Sometimes, however, you can have a disc which has a layer transition placed on
    a very bad spot, like during an action sequence.

    >I agree about the beatnik remark, but it should be noted that
    >Blockbuster only stocks widescreen versions of their rentals now. Go see
    >for yourself.


    Yeah, fortunately now. Although, I wouldn't buy my DVDs from my local
    supermarkets. Nothing but fullscreen versions of "Harry Potter" and "Chicago."

    Hopefully, the local Wal-Mart here will keep widescreen titles in stock. They
    still do, fortunately.



    > One thing to keep in mind is that the market
    >for DVD's is MUCH larger than the one for games so generally speaking a
    >DVD is going to go through the rounds a lot more than a game ever will.
    >


    Then again, it's kids who are more likely to handle game discs than DVD Videos.

    >For this reason I now have CD's
    >that are well over 10 years old and play without a hitch. Hell, I'm so
    >anal about it I even try to keep the jewel cases from getting beat up.


    That's good. I also like CD-Rs. I can make backups of any of my prized CDs,
    and play the copies while storing my originals. - Reinhart
     
    LASERandDVDfan, Sep 1, 2003
    #3
  4. Black Locust

    Black Locust Guest

    In article <>,
    (LASERandDVDfan) wrote:

    > Then, because the PS-2 isn't the best thing for playing movies, it's a bad
    > choice for games?


    It's a matter of preference. As I've stated several times before, I feel
    the PS2 is a badly designed system because it was rushed. But it's
    certainly better at playing games than DVD's.

    > The problem with playing DVDs with a PS-2 is more in terms of how the DVD
    > Video
    > is authored as opposed to being a bad disc drive design. There will be discs
    > that have incompatibility issues with the PS-2, and for that matter, even
    > regular DVD players. In fact, this has been a problem with many older
    > players
    > (Anyone remember problems with the Samsung 709 when playing "The Matrix?")
    > and
    > even continues to persist to this day with various modern players (Quite a
    > few
    > Disney DVDs being a notable example.).


    I've heard the horror stories about Disney's The Kid. I can't really
    sympathize as I've never had compatibility problems with my Panasonic's.
    Then again, I don't watch too many Disney DVD's... :)

    > If you buy an X-Box, be sure to look for a console that uses the Samsung
    > drive.
    > The ones that use a Philips drive and a Thomson drive are problematic.


    How can you find out what drive is in the system? Is it listed somewhere
    on the box?

    > It never reads there, but the lacquer is composed of an acrylic layer that is
    > thinner than a stand of human hair. That is all that's there, plus any
    > silkscreen printing, to protect this layer from oxidation and physical damage
    > to the actual track. Damaging this layer can actually destroy a disc by:


    Interesting. I never knew that. What about discs that don't have a layer
    of lacquer on the face side though? By that, I mean discs that just have
    some cheap text written on the disc.

    > Hopefully, the local Wal-Mart here will keep widescreen titles in stock.
    > They
    > still do, fortunately.


    I never shop at Walmart because of their penchant for "fullscreen"
    DVD's. I just buy all of my DVD's at Best Buy. They have a better
    selection and have prices just as good as Walmart's, if not better.

    > Then again, it's kids who are more likely to handle game discs than DVD
    > Videos.


    Just use simple mathematics here. If a game disc is rented 10 times and
    a DVD is rented a 100 times, which one is likely to be in the worst
    condition?
    --
    BL
     
    Black Locust, Sep 2, 2003
    #4
  5. >
    >How can you find out what drive is in the system? Is it listed somewhere
    >on the box?


    Try looking for a system that is version 1.3. I don't know if Microsoft still
    uses the Samsung drive, although from what I've learned from an X-Box
    enthusiast, you'll have to look around for a used X-Box that is version 1.3.

    The advantage of the Samsung drive is the ability to read just about anything,
    including recordable DVD and CD media. The Philips and Thomson drives
    apparently lack such capability. In addition, reliability is a problem.
    Thomson is notorious of manufacturing cheap drives, as their RCA line of
    products have a tendency to suggest. Philips seems to make optical pickups
    which like to drop like flies.

    >Interesting. I never knew that. What about discs that don't have a layer
    >of lacquer on the face side though?


    Then it's not a functional disc. Without the lacquer, there's nothing to keep
    the reflective layer from being oxidized or even kept on the disc. All discs
    must have a lacquer layer to seal the reflective layer.

    >I never shop at Walmart because of their penchant for "fullscreen"
    >DVD's. I just buy all of my DVD's at Best Buy. They have a better
    >selection and have prices just as good as Walmart's, if not better.


    I couldn't agree more, but the nearest Best Buy is about 40 miles west of where
    I live. Talk about living in a small town!

    >Just use simple mathematics here. If a game disc is rented 10 times and
    >a DVD is rented a 100 times, which one is likely to be in the worst
    >condition?


    There is a difference between theory and practice. In theory, your idea makes
    sense. In practice, I still see more rental games that are screwed up by
    damage than rental DVDs, or at least at my local Blockbuster location. -
    Reinhart
     
    LASERandDVDfan, Sep 2, 2003
    #5
  6. Black Locust

    Black Locust Guest

    In article <>,
    (LASERandDVDfan) wrote:

    > Try looking for a system that is version 1.3. I don't know if Microsoft
    > still
    > uses the Samsung drive, although from what I've learned from an X-Box
    > enthusiast, you'll have to look around for a used X-Box that is version 1.3.


    Hmmm. Do you know what's in the 1.4 model?

    > The advantage of the Samsung drive is the ability to read just about
    > anything,
    > including recordable DVD and CD media. The Philips and Thomson drives
    > apparently lack such capability. In addition, reliability is a problem.
    > Thomson is notorious of manufacturing cheap drives, as their RCA line of
    > products have a tendency to suggest. Philips seems to make optical pickups
    > which like to drop like flies.


    Philips drives are shit as well? I don't have much experience, but I was
    always told Philips were pretty good players.

    > There is a difference between theory and practice. In theory, your idea
    > makes
    > sense. In practice, I still see more rental games that are screwed up by
    > damage than rental DVDs, or at least at my local Blockbuster location. -
    > Reinhart


    Well, you might just have an abnormal amount of game renters in your
    area. Around here the DVD's definitely seem to get it worse.
    --
    BL
     
    Black Locust, Sep 3, 2003
    #6
  7. >Hmmm. Do you know what's in the 1.4 model?

    I think the latest version of the X-Box is still 1.3. Of course, this is
    subject to change at any time and might have already.

    >Philips drives are shit as well? I don't have much experience, but I was
    >always told Philips were pretty good players.


    Yep, and their DVD players aren't so hot, either.

    >Well, you might just have an abnormal amount of game renters in your
    >area. Around here the DVD's definitely seem to get it worse.


    True, too. I guess it depends on the location's demographics and what they
    would rent. - Reinhart
     
    LASERandDVDfan, Sep 3, 2003
    #7
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