Re: Truly Trulymail

Discussion in 'Computer Security' started by Ari Silverstein, Aug 31, 2010.

  1. On Mon, 30 Aug 2010 21:50:58 -0700 (PDT), TrulyMail Support wrote:

    >> Looks fairly interesting, but I'd like a lot more info on who they are....

    >
    > I'm John from TrulyMail Support. What would you like to know about us?
    >
    > The short version is that we are a Chilean company and we offer a
    > secure, powerful, easy-to-use, email client which includes
    > automatically encrypted messages between TrulyMail users (and optional
    > encryption between email users) along with many other features. Our
    > system is quite rich and you can read more about it here:
    > http://trulymail.com/Features.aspx


    Thanks for the info, John.

    What is you and your companies background in delivering and
    implementing encryption?

    Who is "John", who are the investors, management and directors of
    Trulymail?
    --
    ´Looking Above and Beyond the Ramp: A Study of Buffalo Studentsÿ
    Attitudes toward Alternative Modes of Transportation"
    Ari Silverstein, Aug 31, 2010
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. On Aug 31, 12:10 pm, Ari Silverstein <> wrote:

    > Thanks for the info, John.
    >
    > What is you and your companies background in delivering and
    > implementing encryption?


    TrulyMail (the company) has been around a short time (two years). Our
    products include the TrulyMail Client and related TrulyMail services
    (encrypted, private messaging, for example). We have been offering
    these products for about two years now.

    > Who is "John", who are the investors, management and directors ofTrulymail?


    I am John (though, I am not the only one here named John). The
    identities of our investors is not public information. Is this
    something that is important for you to know? If so, may I ask why?
    TrulyMail Support, Aug 31, 2010
    #2
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  3. Ari Silverstein

    Mr. B Guest

    Ari Silverstein wrote:

    > On Mon, 30 Aug 2010 21:50:58 -0700 (PDT), TrulyMail Support wrote:
    >
    >>> Looks fairly interesting, but I'd like a lot more info on who they
    >>> are....

    >>
    >> I'm John from TrulyMail Support. What would you like to know about us?
    >>
    >> The short version is that we are a Chilean company and we offer a
    >> secure, powerful, easy-to-use, email client which includes
    >> automatically encrypted messages between TrulyMail users (and optional
    >> encryption between email users) along with many other features. Our
    >> system is quite rich and you can read more about it here:
    >> http://trulymail.com/Features.aspx


    1. Where is the source code? It would be nice if we could see what you mean
    when you say "strong key encryption."
    2. Why should we use this when we can already send encrypted email, and when
    we have been doing so for a long time now? What exactly does your software
    bring to the table, and why should we sacrifice compatibility with existing
    cryptosystems?

    -- B
    Mr. B, Aug 31, 2010
    #3
  4. Ari Silverstein

    Nomen Nescio Guest

    > On Mon, 30 Aug 2010 21:50:58 -0700 (PDT), TrulyMail Support wrote:


    > Looks fairly interesting, but I'd like a lot more info on who they are....


    > I'm John from TrulyMail Support. What would you like to know about us?


    > The short version is that we are a Chilean company and we offer a
    > secure, powerful, easy-to-use, email client which includes
    > automatically encrypted messages between TrulyMail users (and optional
    > encryption between email users) along with many other features. Our
    > system is quite rich and you can read more about it here:
    > http://trulymail.com/Features.aspx


    > Thanks for the info, John.


    > What is you and your companies background in delivering and
    > implementing encryption?


    > Who is "John", who are the investors, management and directors of
    > Trulymail?


    > --
    > “Looking Above and Beyond the Ramp: A Study of Buffalo Students’
    > Attitudes toward Alternative Modes of Transportation"


    Some additional questions (you know how suspecious we are in this
    group:)).
    1. Is the service free? I can't see anything about cost. If free,
    do you intend to start charging in the future?
    2. Your website is in English only. Seems strange for a company
    located in Chile.
    3. What is the encryption you are using?
    Nomen Nescio, Aug 31, 2010
    #4
  5. >   Some additional questions (you know how suspecious we are in this
    > group:)).


    You are always welcome to ask. I will answer what I can.

    > 1. Is the service free?  I can't see anything about cost.  


    Yes, all existing TrulyMail services are free. Our TrulyMail Client is
    also free.

    > If free,
    > do you intend to start charging in the future?


    We will not charge for what we currently give away for free. However,
    we will be offering additional services which will require a small fee
    to use. Think of it like Skype: You get some services for free and
    some you pay for.

    > 2. Your website is in English only.  Seems strange for a company
    > located in Chile.


    This is not a question.

    > 3. What is the encryption you are using?


    We use both synchronous and asynchronous encryption. We use 4096 bit
    keys which we feel is strong enough for now.
    TrulyMail Support, Aug 31, 2010
    #5
  6. On Tue, 31 Aug 2010 01:42:07 -0700 (PDT), TrulyMail Support wrote:

    > On Aug 31, 12:10 pm, Ari Silverstein <> wrote:
    >
    >> Thanks for the info, John.
    >>
    >> What is you and your companies background in delivering and
    >> implementing encryption?

    >
    > TrulyMail (the company) has been around a short time (two years). Our
    > products include the TrulyMail Client and related TrulyMail services
    > (encrypted, private messaging, for example). We have been offering
    > these products for about two years now.
    >
    >> Who is "John", who are the investors, management and directors ofTrulymail?

    >
    > I am John (though, I am not the only one here named John). The
    > identities of our investors is not public information. Is this
    > something that is important for you to know? If so, may I ask why?


    If you're dealing with security products, especially without open
    source coding, /who/ you are and your background is extremely
    important.

    The fact that you ask this question is startling.

    And informative.
    --
    Talk about F-Cars - www.ferrarichat.com/forum/member.php?u=89702
    Ari Silverstein, Aug 31, 2010
    #6
  7. On Tue, 31 Aug 2010 06:17:30 -0700 (PDT), TrulyMail Support wrote:

    >> 2. Your website is in English only.  Seems strange for a company
    >> located in Chile.

    >
    > This is not a question.


    And your answer is not an answer.

    Clue: If you are going to be a serious player in encrypted
    technologies, acting in seclusion and secrecy is going to run against
    any hopes for respectability and credibility.

    Only buffoons and morons will be your clientele.
    --
    9ec4c12949a4f31474f299058ce2b22a
    Ari Silverstein, Aug 31, 2010
    #7
  8. <<< my apologies if this post gets repeated, the reply function was
    not working as I expected >>>

    > 1. Where is the source code? It would be nice if we could see what you mean
    > when you say "strong key encryption."


    TrulyMail is not open-source (at least not at this time). Accordingly,
    our source code is not available to the public. If you would like to
    audit our source code, we would be happy to show you some key parts of
    it if you are ever in Santiago.

    For us, strong-key means 4096-bit keys. That's quite a bit higher than
    what is offered by PGP and others.

    > 2. Why should we use this when we can already send encrypted email, and when
    > we have been doing so for a long time now?


    If you have a system you like, keep using it. We feel there are plenty
    of users who do not encrypt now who should and will, if we make it
    easy enough for them.

    > What exactly does your software
    > bring to the table, and why should we sacrifice compatibility with existing
    > cryptosystems?


    While we think we bring a lot to the table (see our features page on
    our website: http://trulymail.com/Features.aspx) we also understand
    that there are users who prefer to stick to the systems they already
    know.

    You have a choice. We think we are a great choice but it all depends
    on your needs.
    TrulyMail Support, Aug 31, 2010
    #8
  9. On Tue, 31 Aug 2010 07:07:27 -0700 (PDT), TrulyMail Support wrote:

    > <<< my apologies if this post gets repeated, the reply function was
    > not working as I expected >>>
    >
    >> 1. Where is the source code? It would be nice if we could see what you mean
    >> when you say "strong key encryption."

    >
    > TrulyMail is not open-source (at least not at this time). Accordingly,
    > our source code is not available to the public. If you would like to
    > audit our source code, we would be happy to show you some key parts of
    > it if you are ever in Santiago.


    *LOL*

    What a crock.

    > For us, strong-key means 4096-bit keys. That's quite a bit higher than
    > what is offered by PGP and others.


    If your implementation sucks, it doesn't matter if you have 400,096
    megabit keys.

    >> 2. Why should we use this when we can already send encrypted email, and when
    >> we have been doing so for a long time now?

    >
    > If you have a system you like, keep using it. We feel there are plenty
    > of users who do not encrypt now who should and will, if we make it
    > easy enough for them.


    > You have a choice. We think we are a great choice but it all depends
    > on your needs.


    I chose to pass.

    Quickly, completely and what may be forever.
    --
    "You can't trust code that you did not totally create yourself"
    Ken Thompson "Reflections on Trusting Trust"
    Ari Silverstein, Aug 31, 2010
    #9
  10. On Aug 31, 8:44 pm, Ari Silverstein <> wrote:
    > On Tue, 31 Aug 2010 06:17:30 -0700 (PDT),TrulyMailSupport wrote:
    > >> 2. Your website is in English only. Seems strange for a company
    > >> located in Chile.

    >
    > > This is not a question.

    >
    > And your answer is not an answer.
    >
    > Clue: If you are going to be a serious player in encrypted
    > technologies, acting in seclusion and secrecy is going to run against
    > any hopes for respectability and credibility.
    >
    > Only buffoons and morons will be your clientele.


    I had in no way intended to hide anything in my response. I think open
    conversations are great. That said, one cannot answer a statement. I
    could guess at what the real question is (are we really in Chile; why
    is our website in English; is our use of English-only accidental;
    etc.) but that would be me putting my questions into your mouth and
    that just doesn't seem appropriate to me.

    I do feel your response was a bit harsh but this is not a place to
    critique communication style.

    I will list what you might have intended to ask and if I get it right,
    great. If not, I hope you will ask a clear question.

    a) We are really in Chile.
    b) We did choose English on purpose.
    c) If we were targeting only Spanish speakers, then we would have
    created everything in Spanish. However, we recognize that English is
    the main international language and that is what we use here. English
    is quite common here in Chile amongst the highly educated. Since we
    are targeting the people of the world, English seems a more reasonable
    language than Spanish.

    There are plenty of companies based in countries where English is not
    the official (Switzerland, Germany, etc.) who focus their
    communications on English for the same reasons we do.

    Now, if I may, why does it seem strange to you that our website is in
    English? It helped you to learn more about us, did it not? If it did,
    then it has served us well.
    TrulyMail Support, Aug 31, 2010
    #10
  11. > If you're dealing with security products, especially without open
    > source coding, /who/ you are and your background is extremely
    > important.


    I guess it all depends on who we are targeting as our customer. For
    John Q. Public to choose a system to keep his private messages
    private, does he care about who made Thunderbird+GPG+Enigmail or who
    made TrulyMail?

    I believe he does not. I believe his primary concern is how to keep
    his private communications private without spending a day getting
    three pieces of software installed, setup, and configured to
    interoperate. Of course, the easier path for him is to use TrulyMail,
    click the Next button a few times, and have everything done
    automatically.

    You are clearly a very detail-oriented person. You want to know
    everything about whatever topic you dig into. There is nothing wrong
    with that. There are many open source systems out there which allow
    you to go through the code line-by-line and you can see everything it
    does.

    We are not that kind of company. We are a 'bring secure, convenient
    communications to the masses' kind of company.

    Different fits for different people.
    TrulyMail Support, Aug 31, 2010
    #11
  12. Ari Silverstein

    Nomen Nescio Guest

    > On Tue, 31 Aug 2010 06:17:30 -0700 (PDT), TrulyMail Support wrote:


    > 2. Your website is in English only. Seems strange for a company
    > located in Chile.


    > This is not a question.


    > And your answer is not an answer.


    You just beat me in making this reply! If this was a reply from
    a salesman to me, he would have just sealed the loss of the sale.

    > Clue: If you are going to be a serious player in encrypted
    > technologies, acting in seclusion and secrecy is going to run against
    > any hopes for respectability and credibility.


    > Only buffoons and morons will be your clientele.


    > --
    > 9ec4c12949a4f31474f299058ce2b22a
    Nomen Nescio, Aug 31, 2010
    #12
  13. > > ...we would be happy to show you some key parts of
    > > it if you are ever in Santiago.

    >
    > *LOL*
    >
    > What a crock.


    It is clear that you would be best served by an open-source solution.
    If you believe everyone is best served by the same thing, you should
    hear some horror stories of our users about trying to get encrypted
    email to work when they used GPG and their broker used PGP. The short
    version is that in the end, they gave up and used clear-text email -
    far less than ideal.

    > If your implementation sucks, it doesn't matter if you have 400,096
    > megabit keys.


    You're welcome to try to decrypt our messages. I'll buy you a nice
    dinner if you can do it.

    > I chose to pass.


    You get to. Good luck to you, sir.
    TrulyMail Support, Aug 31, 2010
    #13
  14. Ari Silverstein

    Mr. B Guest

    TrulyMail Support wrote:
    >> 3. What is the encryption you are using?

    >
    > We use both synchronous and asynchronous encryption. We use 4096 bit
    > keys which we feel is strong enough for now.


    Perhaps you could shed some light on which ciphers you use? The more I read
    your posts, the more I think you are another snake-oil salesman.

    -- B
    Mr. B, Aug 31, 2010
    #14
  15. On Tue, 31 Aug 2010 07:48:47 -0700 (PDT), TrulyMail Support wrote:

    >> If you're dealing with security products, especially without open
    >> source coding, /who/ you are and your background is extremely
    >> important.

    >
    > I guess it all depends on who we are targeting as our customer. For
    > John Q. Public to choose a system to keep his private messages
    > private, does he care about who made Thunderbird+GPG+Enigmail or who
    > made TrulyMail?
    >
    > I believe he does not. I believe his primary concern is how to keep
    > his private communications private without spending a day getting
    > three pieces of software installed, setup, and configured to
    > interoperate. Of course, the easier path for him is to use TrulyMail,
    > click the Next button a few times, and have everything done
    > automatically.


    Let me translate. You want newbies, dumbasses and those with no
    education in anything cryptology to guy into your product.

    OK, at least we have your marketing plan down.

    > You are clearly a very detail-oriented person. You want to know
    > everything about whatever topic you dig into. There is nothing wrong
    > with that. There are many open source systems out there which allow
    > you to go through the code line-by-line and you can see everything it
    > does.


    Hardly detail oriented. Examining open source code isn't my cop of tea
    either.

    But I do believe in peer review and your rather flippant attitude "see
    you in Santiagoe" toward your code is utter bullshit.

    But, hey, there is a large market for morons who will trust their
    privacy with people like you so have at it. Expect to get zero
    credibility from anyone has any teensy bit of workable knowledge
    regarding encryption.

    > We are not that kind of company. We are a 'bring secure, convenient
    > communications to the masses' kind of company.


    You're a bring the bucks to John kinda company who hides behind single
    names and averts the honest intentions of prying eyes.

    > Different fits for different people.


    Most certainly but you can have your profits and your credibility as
    well. For whatever reason, none of which I can think of that is either
    honest or straightforward, Trulymail has decided to take the lowest of
    low roads.

    The only reasons you would do so are:

    1) Trulymail is comprised of a set of waffling imbeciles.
    2) You're crooked

    You see, transparency is the lifeblood of professional cryptology. The
    breast that feeds its reliability and innocence. You guys are as
    valuable as a tit on a boy pig.

    Now you are exposed which is a good thing for everyone including you.
    Repent. Turn away from the Dark Side.

    This "trust us, we're really good guys" is a bunch of hocus-pocus BS,
    it demeans you and it demeans your products.

    Remember Allende.
    --
    Ari's Fun Times!
    http://tr.im/hrFG
    Motto: Run, rabbit, Run!
    Ari Silverstein, Aug 31, 2010
    #15
  16. On Tue, 31 Aug 2010 07:39:38 -0700 (PDT), TrulyMail Support wrote:

    > On Aug 31, 8:44 pm, Ari Silverstein <> wrote:
    >> On Tue, 31 Aug 2010 06:17:30 -0700 (PDT),TrulyMailSupport wrote:
    >>>> 2. Your website is in English only. Seems strange for a company
    >>>> located in Chile.

    >>
    >>> This is not a question.

    >>
    >> And your answer is not an answer.
    >>
    >> Clue: If you are going to be a serious player in encrypted
    >> technologies, acting in seclusion and secrecy is going to run against
    >> any hopes for respectability and credibility.
    >>
    >> Only buffoons and morons will be your clientele.

    >
    > I had in no way intended to hide anything in my response. I think open
    > conversations are great. That said, one cannot answer a statement. I
    > could guess at what the real question is (are we really in Chile; why
    > is our website in English; is our use of English-only accidental;
    > etc.) but that would be me putting my questions into your mouth and
    > that just doesn't seem appropriate to me.


    It's Usenet.

    What is appropriate is this discussion. Or lack of one. You want to
    dance around direct questions or offer flippant responses to
    professional inquiry. Yes, that is tissue paper hanging from your
    shoe.

    > I do feel your response was a bit harsh but this is not a place to
    > critique communication style.


    Harsh it was an intended to be. I get my knickers in a wad anytime I
    see people who want to play at privacy, make ostentatious claims about
    their products and refuse to offer any reasonable details as to basis
    for those claims. Call me old fashioned. Call me an asshole. I could
    care less.

    It's not me who is hiding behind a Harry Potter Invisibility Cloak and
    shouting "No problems, trust me."

    > I will list what you might have intended to ask and if I get it right,
    > great. If not, I hope you will ask a clear question.
    >
    > a) We are really in Chile.


    How do we know? Because you say so? Ain't flying.

    > b) We did choose English on purpose.
    > c) If we were targeting only Spanish speakers, then we would have
    > created everything in Spanish. However, we recognize that English is
    > the main international language and that is what we use here. English
    > is quite common here in Chile amongst the highly educated. Since we
    > are targeting the people of the world, English seems a more reasonable
    > language than Spanish.
    >
    > There are plenty of companies based in countries where English is not
    > the official (Switzerland, Germany, etc.) who focus their
    > communications on English for the same reasons we do.
    >
    > Now, if I may, why does it seem strange to you that our website is in
    > English? It helped you to learn more about us, did it not? If it did,
    > then it has served us well.


    Blitherings aside, it might as well be in Yiddish except of course
    that Jews don't trust much of anyone.

    Certainly not those with Harry Potter Syndrome.

    Picking this issue (English v.s Yiddish) is a nice dodge but the
    bottom line is this.

    Maybe you will make money, maybe you won't. But until you come clean,
    you will *never* have the credibility that an honest, open and
    concerned cryptology company would desire.

    I suggest that you could care less.

    P.S. Don't even think about trying to sell to the US Gov't, DoD or any
    of the intertwined military-intelligence agencies. They /really/ frown
    on foreign nationals who play at such serious business.
    --
    9ec4c12949a4f31474f299058ce2b22a
    Ari Silverstein, Aug 31, 2010
    #16
  17. On Tue, 31 Aug 2010 07:58:02 -0700 (PDT), TrulyMail Support wrote:

    >>> ...we would be happy to show you some key parts of
    >>> it if you are ever in Santiago.

    >>
    >> *LOL*
    >>
    >> What a crock.

    >
    > It is clear that you would be best served by an open-source solution.
    > If you believe everyone is best served by the same thing, you should
    > hear some horror stories of our users about trying to get encrypted
    > email to work when they used GPG and their broker used PGP. The short
    > version is that in the end, they gave up and used clear-text email -
    > far less than ideal.


    Oh I see so the alternative is to "trust you" and your Wizard of Oz
    act behind your curtain?

    Har.

    You could be a honeypot, a NSA/CIA front company, a terrorist node and
    a whole lot of other much nastier things than a clear text email
    provider.

    >> If your implementation sucks, it doesn't matter if you have 400,096
    >> megabit keys.

    >
    > You're welcome to try to decrypt our messages. I'll buy you a nice
    > dinner if you can do it.


    I won't be in Santiago anytime soon. Offer rings as hollow as your
    unknown implementation of this "encryption" you have.

    >> I chose to pass.

    >
    > You get to. Good luck to you, sir.


    None to you.
    --
    Just Say Now!
    http://firedoglake.com/justsaynow
    Ari Silverstein, Aug 31, 2010
    #17
  18. On Aug 31, 9:57 pm, Nomen Nescio <> wrote:
    > > On Tue, 31 Aug 2010 06:17:30 -0700 (PDT),TrulyMailSupport wrote:
    > > 2. Your website is in English only.  Seems strange for a company
    > > located in Chile.
    > > This is not a question.
    > > And your answer is not an answer.

    >
    >   You just beat me in making this reply!  If this was a reply from
    > a salesman to me, he would have just sealed the loss of the sale.


    OK, please let me publicly apologize. It was never my intention to
    snub anyone here. My point was simply that it is easier to answer
    clear questions. Clearly I was inappropriate in my response and I hope
    you will forgive me.
    TrulyMail Support, Aug 31, 2010
    #18
  19. Ari Silverstein

    Mr. B Guest

    TrulyMail Support wrote:
    > OK, please let me publicly apologize. It was never my intention to
    > snub anyone here. My point was simply that it is easier to answer
    > clear questions. Clearly I was inappropriate in my response and I hope
    > you will forgive me.


    OK, here is a clear question for you, which you keep avoiding: which
    ciphers does your software use?

    -- B
    Mr. B, Aug 31, 2010
    #19

  20. > > It is clear that you would be best served by an open-source solution.
    > > If you believe everyone is best served by the same thing, you should
    > > hear some horror stories of our users about trying to get encrypted
    > > email to work when they used GPG and their broker used PGP. The short
    > > version is that in the end, they gave up and used clear-text email -
    > > far less than ideal.

    >
    > Oh I see so the alternative is to "trust you" and your Wizard of Oz
    > act behind your curtain?
    >
    > Har.
    >
    > You could be a honeypot, a NSA/CIA front company, a terrorist node and
    > a whole lot of other much nastier things than a clear text email
    > provider.


    Like my earlier post, clearly another apology is in order. My
    intention was certainly not to offend (although, offending you is
    likely impossible so I'll say my intetion was not to anger you). My
    point was not that you can either trust us or go away. My point was
    that any startup (I admit we are very new at only two years old) is
    naturally protective of what they have. I know of firms who have had
    Chinese hackers literally simply rebrand something which took a
    significant amount of energy (and money) to produce. So, now there is
    a competitor there with zero development costs (save the hacking
    costs). That's tough (and a reminder to be cautious).

    It is important to us that we don't end up down that road. Handing out
    source code for everyone to see, rebrand, recompile, and redistribute
    on a whim seems not to be the best way to ensure a company has a
    future. That said, we do understand the need for others to see what we
    are doing in order to be confident enough to trust out products.

    We have chosen to err on the side of caution but if someone wants to
    see, they are welcome.

    My saying that we would expose key parts was not intended to convey
    that we will keep some parts secret. The intention was that we will
    expose whatever you want to see about the encryption, if you are
    concerned about the encryption.

    >
    > >> If your implementation sucks, it doesn't matter if you have 400,096
    > >> megabit keys.

    >


    While I, personally, don't have a background in cryptography, I do
    understand software. Our software is built on components, like most
    software today. Our TrulyMail client is built using Microsoft's .Net
    and our encryption uses their cryptographic library using the Rijndael
    algorithm (PROV_RSA_AES cryptographic service provider). We use a 4096-
    bit key, as mentioned earlier.

    Since we did not write the encryption algorithm, it didn't seem
    relevant to give names and cryptographic backgrounds of everyone at
    the company.

    I don't believe you asked for my last name but if I misread your
    question, here is the answer. My name is John Andre. I have two
    decades experience in developing software using Microsoft technologies
    for various companies around the world (including in the Chile, US,
    Austria, Switzerland, and others).

    I might be new to cryptography (and out of touch with the culture of
    extreme openness) but I do understand the need for privacy in an easy-
    to-use manner. I don't believe that only people who can configure
    complex software have the right to privacy. I believe that everyone
    deserves it and we're producing software to give that to them.

    We're now getting into personal philosophies and that was clearly not
    asked about so I will try to restrict this tangent.

    Again, to summarize, I apologize for my erring on the side of secrecy.
    TrulyMail was created because of the basic belief that freedom goes
    hand in hand with privacy.

    Now, feel free to rip into it.
    TrulyMail Support, Aug 31, 2010
    #20
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