Re: Sony offers Compact Flash -- HELL JUST FROZE OVER!

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Charlie Self, Aug 19, 2003.

  1. Charlie Self

    Charlie Self Guest

    Max Burke writes:

    >
    >How many sets of AA batteries would you have had to buy in the last five
    >years?
    >
    >I fully expect the two proprietary batteries that I use with my '717
    >will last just as long; So far the batteries last about a 5-7 days
    >before needing a recharge in the '717 ......


    Utterly meaningless. How long the batteries work on a single charge depends
    almost totally on the type of photography you do. No flash, no preview, no
    review, and the batteries last a good long time. Use all of those, and your
    batteries last much less time. Most people use a highly variable mix of the
    features, so determining battery life in days of shooting requires set
    standards going.

    But it's nice you're happy with your battery life.


    Charlie Self

    "A low voter turnout is an indication of fewer people going to the polls."
    Dan Quayle
     
    Charlie Self, Aug 19, 2003
    #1
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  2. Charlie Self

    Max Burke Guest

    > Charlie Self scribbled:

    >> Max Burke writes:


    >> How many sets of AA batteries would you have had to buy in the last
    >> five years?
    >> I fully expect the two proprietary batteries that I use with my '717
    >> will last just as long; So far the batteries last about a 5-7 days
    >> before needing a recharge in the '717 ......


    > Utterly meaningless.


    No it isn't.

    > How long the batteries work on a single charge
    > depends almost totally on the type of photography you do. No flash,
    > no preview, no review, and the batteries last a good long time.


    Which is why knowing how long a single battery charge will last for is a
    good thing to know when using your camera as you normally do.....
    But hey the did I mention the batteries I use tell me *accurately* right
    down to the minute how long I can use them for. Cant do that with
    AA's....

    > Use all of those, and your batteries last much less time.


    Which is why you DO need to know how long they'll last for before
    they'll need recharging OR replacing if you're using non rechargable
    AA's...
    It saves you running out of [charged] batteries in the middle of a
    session.....

    > Most people use
    > a highly variable mix of the features, so determining battery life in
    > days of shooting requires set standards going.


    All the more reason to know *EXACT^LY* how your batteries perform. AA's
    are notoriously unreliable in that respect. Sometimes they last for as
    long as required, other times they're flat in half the time......

    > But it's nice you're happy with your battery life.


    That's because I know how long they'll last for down to the minute and
    they are long lasting both in terms of available charge, and in lifetime
    usage.....
    No surprises, no disappointments due to the batteries going flat at the
    wrong time.....

    --
    mlvburke@#%&*.net.nz
    Replace the obvious with paradise to email me.
    See Found Images at:
    http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~mlvburke
     
    Max Burke, Aug 19, 2003
    #2
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  3. "Charlie Self" <> wrote:
    > >
    > >Which is why you DO need to know how long they'll last for before
    > >they'll need recharging OR replacing if you're using non rechargable
    > >AA's...
    > >It saves you running out of [charged] batteries in the middle of a
    > >session.....

    >
    > Nonsense. I've got 4-5 sets of NiMh, so don't worry at all about running

    out of
    > batteries in the middle of a session.


    I've _never_ had to change batteries in the middle of a session with a Sony
    camera. (That's because I can check the charge level of the battery in the
    camera before heading out and switch to a full battery if needed. (Although
    I've never had to switch batteries.))

    Lugging 16 NiMh batteries around sounds a lot less convenient than not
    lugging any.

    It sounds to me that it's NiMh that are nonsense.

    > How many people have you even heard of who are using non-rechargeable AAs

    in
    > cameras?


    I see people ("non-photographer" P&S types) doing it all the time. There's
    something about the convenience of not having to bother with an AA charger
    that causes people to want to use disposables.

    > >All the more reason to know *EXACT^LY* how your batteries perform. AA's
    > >are notoriously unreliable in that respect. Sometimes they last for as
    > >long as required, other times they're flat in half the time......

    >
    > Say what? You seem to have had some really bad experiences with AAs...or

    little
    > experience at all with them.


    Knowing how much time you've got before your batteries are going to die is
    really really useful. You AA types just don't understand that.

    David J. Littleboy
    Tokyo, Japan
     
    David J. Littleboy, Aug 19, 2003
    #3
  4. Charlie Self

    JK Guest

    "David J. Littleboy" wrote:

    > "Charlie Self" <> wrote:
    > > >
    > > >Which is why you DO need to know how long they'll last for before
    > > >they'll need recharging OR replacing if you're using non rechargable
    > > >AA's...
    > > >It saves you running out of [charged] batteries in the middle of a
    > > >session.....

    > >
    > > Nonsense. I've got 4-5 sets of NiMh, so don't worry at all about running

    > out of
    > > batteries in the middle of a session.

    >
    > I've _never_ had to change batteries in the middle of a session with a Sony
    > camera. (That's because I can check the charge level of the battery in the
    > camera before heading out and switch to a full battery if needed. (Although
    > I've never had to switch batteries.))
    >
    > Lugging 16 NiMh batteries around sounds a lot less convenient than not
    > lugging any.


    16 nimh AA batteries fit comfortably in my pants back pockets(in battery
    cases) Will 4 Sony proprietary batteries fit in my back pockets? I doubt it.

    >
    >
    > It sounds to me that it's NiMh that are nonsense.


    LOL!

    >
    >
    > > How many people have you even heard of who are using non-rechargeable AAs

    > in
    > > cameras?

    >
    > I see people ("non-photographer" P&S types) doing it all the time. There's
    > something about the convenience of not having to bother with an AA charger
    > that causes people to want to use disposables.


    Many people don't know much about rechargeable batteries. I have nothing
    against rechargeable lithium batteries except for their high price. When
    the price becomes competative with nimh batteries (when measured
    by price per watt hour of power, and not someone's account of how many
    hours their battery lasted), and the price for chargers also becomes
    competative with nimh chargers, I will probably embrace rechargeable
    lithiums. Until then, I will try to avoid them.

    >
    >
    > > >All the more reason to know *EXACT^LY* how your batteries perform. AA's
    > > >are notoriously unreliable in that respect. Sometimes they last for as
    > > >long as required, other times they're flat in half the time......


    Time? It depends on the how you are draining them. Batteries hold
    a certain amount of watt hours of power, not a certain amount of time.

    >
    > >
    > > Say what? You seem to have had some really bad experiences with AAs...or

    > little
    > > experience at all with them.

    >
    > Knowing how much time you've got before your batteries are going to die is
    > really really useful.


    Why is that? Who cares how long the battery will last when I have more
    charged sets. Having a few sets of AAs frees me from worrying about
    how much power is left in the batteries in the camera.

    > You AA types just don't understand that.


    You don't understand.

    >
    >
    > David J. Littleboy
    > Tokyo, Japan
     
    JK, Aug 19, 2003
    #4
  5. "JK" <> wrote:
    > >
    > > I've _never_ had to change batteries in the middle of a session
    > > with a Sony
    > > camera. (That's because I can check the charge level of the
    > > battery in the
    > > camera before heading out and switch to a full battery if needed.
    > > (Although I've never had to switch batteries.))
    > >
    > > Lugging 16 NiMh batteries around sounds a lot less convenient than not
    > > lugging any.

    >
    > 16 nimh AA batteries fit comfortably in my pants back pockets(in battery
    > cases) Will 4 Sony proprietary batteries fit in my back pockets? I doubt
    > it.


    You've got amazing pockets. Four AAs won't fit comfortably in any pocket I
    own. But why the hell are you carrying four sets? One charged Sony battery
    lasts longer than I do for an afternoon (afternoons walks being my longest
    sessions) of shooting.

    Of course one proprietary battery is smaller and lighter than 4 AAs.

    Since the proprietary batteries report accurately how much charge they
    have left, you only need to carry the batteries you actually need. Putting
    16 batteries in a pocket when the one in the camera is adequately charged
    seems pretty stupid to me, but that's what you AA types _have to_ do.

    > Many people don't know much about rechargeable batteries. I have nothing
    > against rechargeable lithium batteries except for their high price.


    Since I've never needed a spare battery with a Sony camera, my cost for AAs
    was _infinitely_ higher than my cost for Sony batteries. (Well, I bought an
    extra Sony battery and then never used it. Oops.)

    > When
    > the price becomes competative with nimh batteries (when measured
    > by price per watt hour of power, and not someone's account of how many
    > hours their battery lasted),


    It's not watt hours that's of concern, but the actual battery life.

    > and the price for chargers also becomes
    > competative with nimh chargers,


    Sony batteries charge in the camera. Your charger costs are infinitely
    higher than mine.

    > I will probably embrace rechargeable
    > lithiums. Until then, I will try to avoid them.
    >
    > >
    > > Knowing how much time you've got before your batteries are going to die

    is
    > > really really useful.

    >
    > Why is that? Who cares how long the battery will last when I have more
    > charged sets.


    Lets see, (a) anyone who doesn't want to miss shots changing batteries, (b)
    anyone who wants to travel light, (c) anyone who'd rather carry something
    useful than something unnecessary.

    And for folks shooting fast continuous action that they want to catch, a
    single proprietary battery changes a lot faster than 4 AAs. And the time
    left readout allows them to schedule a battery change at breaks in the
    action, either optimizing the shoot, or optimizing not wasting charge.
    Having to switch out a mostly charged set because you don't know when it's
    going to crap out on you reduces the effective charge per set something
    fierce.

    > Having a few sets of AAs frees me from worrying about
    > how much power is left in the batteries in the camera.


    You don't "worry" about the remaining power, you _know_. It's the unknown
    remaining charge with AAs that makes you worry and carry unnecessary spares,
    worry that your shoot is going to be interrupted, worry that none of the
    spares are actually fully charged.

    David J. Littleboy
    Tokyo, Japan
     
    David J. Littleboy, Aug 19, 2003
    #5
  6. Charlie Self

    nospam Guest

    JK <> wrote:

    >Many people don't know much about rechargeable batteries.


    You can say that again.

    >I have nothing
    >against rechargeable lithium batteries except for their high price. When
    >the price becomes competative with nimh batteries (when measured
    >by price per watt hour of power, and not someone's account of how many
    >hours their battery lasted).


    But price per watt hour isn't everything, in the real world rechargeable
    lithiums are already competitive which is why they are so widely used.
     
    nospam, Aug 20, 2003
    #6
  7. Charlie Self

    JK Guest

    "David J. Littleboy" wrote:

    > "JK" <> wrote:
    > > >
    > > > I've _never_ had to change batteries in the middle of a session
    > > > with a Sony
    > > > camera. (That's because I can check the charge level of the
    > > > battery in the
    > > > camera before heading out and switch to a full battery if needed.
    > > > (Although I've never had to switch batteries.))
    > > >
    > > > Lugging 16 NiMh batteries around sounds a lot less convenient than not
    > > > lugging any.

    > >
    > > 16 nimh AA batteries fit comfortably in my pants back pockets(in battery
    > > cases) Will 4 Sony proprietary batteries fit in my back pockets? I doubt
    > > it.

    >
    > You've got amazing pockets. Four AAs won't fit comfortably in any pocket I
    > own. But why the hell are you carrying four sets?


    I use the display often. At times I leave the display on for long periods.
    I can take hundreds of images in a day, also reviewing them on the
    lcd and discarding many of them between shooting. I usually don't
    need to change the batteries more than twice in a long day of shooting,
    however once in a while having four spare sets does come in handy.

    > One charged Sony battery
    > lasts longer than I do for an afternoon (afternoons walks being my longest
    > sessions) of shooting.
    >
    > Of course one proprietary battery is smaller and lighter than 4 AAs.


    >
    >
    > Since the proprietary batteries report accurately how much charge they
    > have left, you only need to carry the batteries you actually need.


    How do I know ahead of time how many photos I will will take that day,
    and how long I will spend reviewing them on the lcd?

    > Putting
    > 16 batteries in a pocket


    Two pockets.

    > when the one in the camera is adequately charged
    > seems pretty stupid to me, but that's what you AA types _have to_ do.


    It isn't bad at all. Yes, I could usually be okay with only 8 spare AAs,
    however I always like to have more than enough power.

    >
    >
    > > Many people don't know much about rechargeable batteries. I have nothing
    > > against rechargeable lithium batteries except for their high price.

    >
    > Since I've never needed a spare battery with a Sony camera, my cost for AAs
    > was _infinitely_ higher than my cost for Sony batteries. (Well, I bought an
    > extra Sony battery and then never used it. Oops.)
    >
    > > When
    > > the price becomes competative with nimh batteries (when measured
    > > by price per watt hour of power, and not someone's account of how many
    > > hours their battery lasted),

    >
    > It's not watt hours that's of concern, but the actual battery life.


    LOL! Watt hours are a measure of power. Some cameras are more power
    efficient than others, however those that are power efficient would be
    power efficient whether the use AAs of proprietary batteries.

    >
    >
    > > and the price for chargers also becomes
    > > competative with nimh chargers,

    >
    > Sony batteries charge in the camera.


    UGH! Who wants all that heat generated inside the camera. I also want
    to charge a few sets of batteries at the same time.

    > Your charger costs are infinitely
    > higher than mine.


    I don't like the idea of charging batteries within a camera. That seems
    like a major design flaw just to save the manufacturer a small amount
    of money.

    >
    >
    > > I will probably embrace rechargeable
    > > lithiums. Until then, I will try to avoid them.
    > >
    > > >
    > > > Knowing how much time you've got before your batteries are going to die

    > is
    > > > really really useful.

    > >
    > > Why is that? Who cares how long the battery will last when I have more
    > > charged sets.

    >
    > Lets see, (a) anyone who doesn't want to miss shots changing batteries, (b)
    > anyone who wants to travel light, (c) anyone who'd rather carry something
    > useful than something unnecessary.


    Considering that the Sony proprietary battery for the f717 only has 8.5 watt
    hours of power, which is only around the same as 4 AA nimh batteries, it
    is not such a great thing. If they made that battery slightly larger, and had it

    store double the amount of power, it would be easier to convince people
    that it might really be worth $40 or more.


    >
    >
    > And for folks shooting fast continuous action that they want to catch, a
    > single proprietary battery changes a lot faster than 4 AAs. And the time
    > left readout allows them to schedule a battery change at breaks in the
    > action, either optimizing the shoot, or optimizing not wasting charge.


    I would use a high capacity external battery pack for that.

    >
    > Having to switch out a mostly charged set because you don't know when it's
    > going to crap out on you reduces the effective charge per set something
    > fierce.


    Not really, as each set lasts quite a long time.

    >
    >
    > > Having a few sets of AAs frees me from worrying about
    > > how much power is left in the batteries in the camera.

    >
    > You don't "worry" about the remaining power, you _know_. It's the unknown
    > remaining charge with AAs that makes you worry and carry unnecessary spares,


    LOL! What is unknown is how much I will use the camera. Having
    a battery meter on the camera will tell me how much I will use the camera,
    how long I will have the lcd on for, and how many images I will take
    using the flash.

    >
    > worry that your shoot is going to be interrupted, worry that none of the
    > spares are actually fully charged.


    That is not a worry.

    >
    >
    > David J. Littleboy
    > Tokyo, Japan
     
    JK, Aug 20, 2003
    #7
  8. 3 Sony batteries for my F717 fit nicely in my back pocket (levis 501s). I
    think I could fit six more if I wanted. At 350 exposures per battery on
    average, 3 batteries is over a thousand pictures.. I've almost never carried
    more than one spare battery, and I've *never* run out of power in the field.

    Godfrey


    On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:48:55 -0400, JK wrote
    (in message <>):

    > 16 nimh AA batteries fit comfortably in my pants back pockets(in battery
    > cases) Will 4 Sony proprietary batteries fit in my back pockets? I doubt it.
     
    Godfrey DiGiorgi, Aug 20, 2003
    #8
  9. I like AA batteries for compatibility and cost mainly, but there
    is really nothing wrong with either format.

    I have 3 sets of AA's. One in the camera, two in the front pouch
    of my small camera bag and just in case something goes wrong
    (like the batteries are charged down, lost, etc) I can jam into a
    store pick up some regular AA's in a pinch if I have to.

    If certain Lithium batteries become standard, perhaps they too
    can be purchased in common stores, thus giving users more
    flexibility.

    > 3 Sony batteries for my F717 fit nicely in my back pocket
    > (levis 501s). I think I could fit six more if I wanted. At 350
    > exposures per battery on average, 3 batteries is over a
    > thousand pictures.. I've almost never carried more than one
    > spare battery, and I've *never* run out of power in the field.
    >
    > Godfrey
    >
    >
    > On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:48:55 -0400, JK wrote
    > (in message <>):
    >
    >> 16 nimh AA batteries fit comfortably in my pants back
    >> pockets(in battery cases) Will 4 Sony proprietary batteries
    >> fit in my back pockets? I doubt it.
     
    Paul D. Sullivan, Aug 20, 2003
    #9
  10. >> I like AA batteries for compatibility and cost mainly, but
    >> there is really nothing wrong with either format.

    >
    > So why don't camera makers give the consumer the choice, by
    > including a AA battery case that attaches to the camera with
    > the camera?


    I dunno - I would think that would get in the way.
    My camera came with a plastic case that holds 4 AA cells and fits
    neatly into a pocket or the pouch in my carrying case. Seems
    good enough to me.
     
    Paul D. Sullivan, Aug 20, 2003
    #10
  11. "Trevor S" <> wrote:
    > "David J. Littleboy" <> wrote in


    > <snip>
    >
    > > Lets see, (a) anyone who doesn't want to miss shots changing
    > > batteries, (b) anyone who wants to travel light, (c) anyone who'd
    > > rather carry something useful than something unnecessary.

    >
    > This a is a wee bit hypocritical when I used the same arguments against
    > memorystick :)


    But memory sticks (a) change faster than CF, (b) are lighter than CF, and
    (c) provided added functionality and performance (MS Pro is faster than CF
    and comes in versions that support Sony's copyright protection scheme (not
    that anyone here (myself included) thinks that that's an advantage<g>)).<g>

    However, MS does have the problem that it doesn't support microdrive, which
    is important now that the F828 has a RAW format. Good thing the F828 has
    both: you can get MS Pro speeds for your jpegs for fast shooting and
    microdrive capacities for your RAW shots at the flick of a switch.

    > That aside, I agree, the SONY batteries are good, they offer improveents
    > over AA rechargebale NiMH's, I bough one extralong life one for my '99
    > vintage TRV900 mini dv camcorder (whch takes CF ;) ) that is _still_

    going
    > strong, m.stick on the other hand never did offer advantages :)


    Other than speed, size, weight, and a mechanically better connector. Just as
    AA battery compartment doors involve excessive force on the hinges, CF cards
    require excessive force for insertion/removal.

    (If the above seems silly, that's only because it is: imaging performance is
    far more important than battery or media type...)

    David J. Littleboy
    Tokyo, Japan
     
    David J. Littleboy, Aug 20, 2003
    #11
  12. Charlie Self

    Trevor S Guest

    "David J. Littleboy" <> wrote in
    news:bhv3nv$ro0$:

    <snip>

    > (If the above seems silly, that's only because it is:


    I'll leave it at that :)


    --
    Trevor S


    "Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
    -Albert Einstein
     
    Trevor S, Aug 20, 2003
    #12
  13. Charlie Self

    Max Burke Guest

    > JK scribbled:

    >> "David J. Littleboy" wrote:
    >> I've _never_ had to change batteries in the middle of a session with
    >> a Sony camera. (That's because I can check the charge level of the
    >> battery in the camera before heading out and switch to a full
    >> battery if needed. (Although I've never had to switch batteries.))
    >> Lugging 16 NiMh batteries around sounds a lot less convenient than
    >> not lugging any.


    > 16 nimh AA batteries fit comfortably in my pants back pockets(in
    > battery cases) Will 4 Sony proprietary batteries fit in my back
    > pockets? I doubt it.


    I dont know about you JK but I have one battery in my camera, and the
    spare one(s) in the camera case along with the various filters, extra
    memory sticks, etc.....
    BTW one or two spare batteries that are the size and weight of three AA
    batteries sure as hell a lot less to carry around than 16 AA batteries;
    They take a lot less time to recharge, and oh did I mention that they
    have a lifetime that is in *YEARS* not months that you can expect from
    AA's....

    >> It sounds to me that it's NiMh that are nonsense.


    > LOL!



    They have their uses sure; I use them in the Flash I use with my
    camera's. I have two sets of four......
    How ever I'm looking at changing to using one of Sony's Video
    Light/Flash combinations that (you guessed it) use Sony proprietary
    batteries......

    >>> How many people have you even heard of who are using
    >>> non-rechargeable Alas in cameras?


    >> I see people ("non-photographer" P&S types) doing it all the time.
    >> There's something about the convenience of not having to bother with
    >> an AA charger that causes people to want to use disposables.


    > Many people don't know much about rechargeable batteries.


    DUUUH!

    > I have
    > nothing against rechargeable lithium batteries except for their high
    > price.


    Their high price is negligible when they have a lifetime of
    *years*......

    Heres a comparison.
    The Sony Batteries I use cost $139 each where I live (RRP)

    However 4 rechargeable NiMH AA's cost anything from $31 to $42 for
    *four* AA's (RRP)
    Do the math JK; 16 would be anything from $124 to $168....
    Given that they usually only last a year or so (depending on usage) then
    in 5 years I would have to spend from $620 to $840....

    Compare that to spending $139 for ONE proprietary battery that is STILL
    fully charging to 180 minutes after five years of near daily usage....

    Yeah, yeah I know you can get them far cheaper than that, but then *you*
    don't live where I live. Where you live you can get Sony batteries that
    are far cheaper than where I live so their cost still is better than
    AA's ($29 for a Sony battery that lasts that still works after 5 years
    is a real barging no matter how you look at it)
    http://www.epinions.com/elec-Photo-...Y_NP-F550_NP-F330_EQUIVALENT_BATTERY_IN_STOCK

    Alternatively I could also buy 4 packs of ordinary AA's at a $2 shop for
    $2 and replace them every other day. But think how many I would have to
    buy over five years......

    > When
    > the price becomes competative with nimh batteries (when measured
    > by price per watt hour of power, and not someone's account of how many
    > hours their battery lasted), and the price for chargers also becomes
    > competative with nimh chargers, I will probably embrace rechargeable
    > lithiums. Until then, I will try to avoid them.


    >>>> All the more reason to know *EXACT^LY* how your batteries perform.
    >>>> AA's are notoriously unreliable in that respect. Sometimes they
    >>>> last for as long as required, other times they're flat in half the
    >>>> time......


    > Time? It depends on the how you are draining them. Batteries hold
    > a certain amount of watt hours of power, not a certain amount of time.


    My camera tells me TO THE MINUTE how long the battery will last. Doesn't
    your camera tell you that?

    >>> Say what? You seem to have had some really bad experiences with
    >>> AAs...or little experience at all with them.


    >> Knowing how much time you've got before your batteries are going to
    >> die is really really useful.


    > Why is that?


    DUH.....
    So you *know* to avoid missing a photo, so you know that you wont run
    out of 'battery' in the middle of a session.......

    > Who cares how long the battery will last when I have more
    > charged sets.


    *I* do. I like the fact that I know *exactly* how long the battery will
    last. You dont.

    > Having a few sets of AAs frees me from worrying about
    > how much power is left in the batteries in the camera.


    Even when they die just before a 'perfect photograph opportunity
    presents it's self.....

    >> You AA types just don't understand that.


    > You don't understand.


    We understand that cost/usage wise the batteries we use are much more
    useful and that they are one of the BIG selling points for Sony
    cameras.....

    --
    mlvburke@#%&*.net.nz
    Replace the obvious with paradise to email me.
    See Found Images at:
    http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~mlvburke
     
    Max Burke, Aug 20, 2003
    #13
  14. Charlie Self

    Max Burke Guest

    > Charlie Self scribbled:

    >> Max Burke responds:
    >> Which is why you DO need to know how long they'll last for before
    >> they'll need recharging OR replacing if you're using non rechargable
    >> AA's...
    >> It saves you running out of [charged] batteries in the middle of a
    >> session.....


    > Nonsense.


    No it isn't, not if you're using Sony batteries....

    > I've got 4-5 sets of NiMh, so don't worry at all about
    > running out of batteries in the middle of a session.


    So you have to carry around 16 - 20 batteries....
    I only need one, but carry a spare one that are only the size and weight
    of *THREE* AA's....

    > How many people have you even heard of who are using non-rechargeable
    > AAs in cameras?


    Most people that use digital cameras, until they find out that they dont
    last very long; Then they find out they have to buy 16 - 20 rechargables
    to carry around with them, unless they have a Sony camera that uses Sony
    batteries. Then that 'situation' just doesn't figure in how we use our
    cameras.....

    >> All the more reason to know *EXACT^LY* how your batteries perform.
    >> AA's are notoriously unreliable in that respect. Sometimes they last
    >> for as long as required, other times they're flat in half the
    >> time......


    > Say what? You seem to have had some really bad experiences with
    > AAs...or little experience at all with them.


    Not at all, I use them all they time in things like TV/Video/DVD/Stereo
    remotes, torches, and believe it or not, in the Soligor flash I use with
    my FD91 and DSC F717.
    But one of the big selling points of Sony digital cameras is their
    proprietary batteries for me and others who choose to buy Sony....


    --
    mlvburke@#%&*.net.nz
    Replace the obvious with paradise to email me.
    See Found Images at:
    http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~mlvburke
     
    Max Burke, Aug 20, 2003
    #14
  15. The NiMH chargers that let you recondition your AA's can help
    extend charge capacity and life significantly.

    As for knowing time down to the minute, I don't see that as
    something that would be so severely needed for the average
    person. My camera (Olympus C5050) has a warning when nearing the
    end of the capacity. You can take the time to change batteries
    right there, or at a convenient point a few shots down the road,
    or keep shooting until the camera detects that there is not
    enough juice left for a shot, at which point the camera does a
    soft shut-down and you can change the batteries.

    Simply because you have a preference for your particular
    brand/type of battery does not negate the fact that there are
    many other very good options out there for others, including a
    very large market for NiMH AA batteries.

    As to cost, I purchased a 10 pack of 1700mA's for $16.99, and
    they have been doing wonderfully for me so far. :)

    >> JK scribbled:

    >
    >>> "David J. Littleboy" wrote:
    >>> I've _never_ had to change batteries in the middle of a
    >>> session with
    >>> a Sony camera. (That's because I can check the charge level
    >>> of the
    >>> battery in the camera before heading out and switch to a full
    >>> battery if needed. (Although I've never had to switch
    >>> batteries.))
    >>> Lugging 16 NiMh batteries around sounds a lot less
    >>> convenient than
    >>> not lugging any.

    >
    >> 16 nimh AA batteries fit comfortably in my pants back
    >> pockets(in
    >> battery cases) Will 4 Sony proprietary batteries fit in my
    >> back
    >> pockets? I doubt it.

    >
    > I dont know about you JK but I have one battery in my camera,
    > and the
    > spare one(s) in the camera case along with the various
    > filters, extra
    > memory sticks, etc.....
    > BTW one or two spare batteries that are the size and weight of
    > three AA
    > batteries sure as hell a lot less to carry around than 16 AA
    > batteries;
    > They take a lot less time to recharge, and oh did I mention
    > that they
    > have a lifetime that is in *YEARS* not months that you can
    > expect from
    > AA's....
    >
    >>> It sounds to me that it's NiMh that are nonsense.

    >
    >> LOL!

    >
    >
    > They have their uses sure; I use them in the Flash I use with
    > my
    > camera's. I have two sets of four......
    > How ever I'm looking at changing to using one of Sony's Video
    > Light/Flash combinations that (you guessed it) use Sony
    > proprietary
    > batteries......
    >
    >>>> How many people have you even heard of who are using
    >>>> non-rechargeable Alas in cameras?

    >
    >>> I see people ("non-photographer" P&S types) doing it all the
    >>> time.
    >>> There's something about the convenience of not having to
    >>> bother with
    >>> an AA charger that causes people to want to use disposables.

    >
    >> Many people don't know much about rechargeable batteries.

    >
    > DUUUH!
    >
    >> I have
    >> nothing against rechargeable lithium batteries except for
    >> their high
    >> price.

    >
    > Their high price is negligible when they have a lifetime of
    > *years*......
    >
    > Heres a comparison.
    > The Sony Batteries I use cost $139 each where I live (RRP)
    >
    > However 4 rechargeable NiMH AA's cost anything from $31 to $42
    > for *four* AA's (RRP)
    > Do the math JK; 16 would be anything from $124 to $168....
    > Given that they usually only last a year or so (depending on
    > usage) then
    > in 5 years I would have to spend from $620 to $840....
    >
    > Compare that to spending $139 for ONE proprietary battery that
    > is STILL
    > fully charging to 180 minutes after five years of near daily
    > usage....
    >
    > Yeah, yeah I know you can get them far cheaper than that, but
    > then *you*
    > don't live where I live. Where you live you can get Sony
    > batteries that
    > are far cheaper than where I live so their cost still is
    > better than
    > AA's ($29 for a Sony battery that lasts that still works after
    > 5 years
    > is a real barging no matter how you look at it)
    >

    http://www.epinions.com/elec-Photo-...Y_NP-F550_NP-F330_EQUIVALENT_BATTERY_IN_STOCK
    >
    > Alternatively I could also buy 4 packs of ordinary AA's at a
    > $2 shop for $2 and replace them every other day. But think
    > how many I would have to
    > buy over five years......
    >
    >> When
    >> the price becomes competative with nimh batteries (when
    >> measured
    >> by price per watt hour of power, and not someone's account of
    >> how many
    >> hours their battery lasted), and the price for chargers also
    >> becomes
    >> competative with nimh chargers, I will probably embrace
    >> rechargeable
    >> lithiums. Until then, I will try to avoid them.

    >
    >>>>> All the more reason to know *EXACT^LY* how your batteries
    >>>>> perform.
    >>>>> AA's are notoriously unreliable in that respect. Sometimes
    >>>>> they
    >>>>> last for as long as required, other times they're flat in
    >>>>> half the
    >>>>> time......

    >
    >> Time? It depends on the how you are draining them. Batteries
    >> hold
    >> a certain amount of watt hours of power, not a certain amount
    >> of time.

    >
    > My camera tells me TO THE MINUTE how long the battery will
    > last. Doesn't
    > your camera tell you that?
    >
    >>>> Say what? You seem to have had some really bad experiences
    >>>> with
    >>>> AAs...or little experience at all with them.

    >
    >>> Knowing how much time you've got before your batteries are
    >>> going to
    >>> die is really really useful.

    >
    >> Why is that?

    >
    > DUH.....
    > So you *know* to avoid missing a photo, so you know that you
    > wont run
    > out of 'battery' in the middle of a session.......
    >
    >> Who cares how long the battery will last when I have more
    >> charged sets.

    >
    > *I* do. I like the fact that I know *exactly* how long the
    > battery will
    > last. You dont.
    >
    >> Having a few sets of AAs frees me from worrying about
    >> how much power is left in the batteries in the camera.

    >
    > Even when they die just before a 'perfect photograph
    > opportunity
    > presents it's self.....
    >
    >>> You AA types just don't understand that.

    >
    >> You don't understand.

    >
    > We understand that cost/usage wise the batteries we use are
    > much more
    > useful and that they are one of the BIG selling points for Sony
    > cameras.....
     
    Paul D. Sullivan, Aug 20, 2003
    #15
  16. Charlie Self

    Charlie Self Guest

    Max Burke responds:

    > I've got 4-5 sets of NiMh, so don't worry at all about
    >> running out of batteries in the middle of a session.

    >
    >So you have to carry around 16 - 20 batteries....
    >I only need one, but carry a spare one that are only the size and weight
    >of *THREE* AA's....


    98% of my shooting is done in my workshop. I don't carry ANYTHING.

    >> How many people have you even heard of who are using non-rechargeable
    >> AAs in cameras?

    >
    >Most people that use digital cameras, until they find out that they dont
    >last very long; Then they find out they have to buy 16 - 20 rechargables
    >to carry around with them, unless they have a Sony camera that uses Sony
    >batteries. Then that 'situation' just doesn't figure in how we use our
    >cameras.....


    Oh, nonsense. Most people who use digital cameras, at least the few dozen I
    know, do NOT use non-rechargeables. Those that do seem to take the
    manufacturer's inclusion of batteries as a marker for what's needed, without
    ever reading the manual.

    If Sony offered a camera that would work in a way that I needed it, I'd have
    bought one way back when. But the F717 is limited in lighting selection in
    studio and close up work, so I didn't.

    I still feel that anyone who lets the battery be the arbiter in any decision to
    buy a camera, whether selecting for proprietary or AA, is foolish. I bought my
    camera for other reasons. It takes AA. I find AA absolutely no inconvenience.

    But, hey, as True Believer, you are doing fine.



    Charlie Self

    "A low voter turnout is an indication of fewer people going to the polls."
    Dan Quayle
     
    Charlie Self, Aug 20, 2003
    #16
  17. On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 15:15:16 +0900, "David J. Littleboy" <>
    wrote:

    >
    >"Trevor S" <> wrote:
    >> "David J. Littleboy" <> wrote in

    >
    >> <snip>
    >>
    >> > Lets see, (a) anyone who doesn't want to miss shots changing
    >> > batteries, (b) anyone who wants to travel light, (c) anyone who'd
    >> > rather carry something useful than something unnecessary.

    >>
    >> This a is a wee bit hypocritical when I used the same arguments against
    >> memorystick :)

    >
    >But memory sticks (a) change faster than CF, (b) are lighter than CF, and
    >(c) provided added functionality and performance (MS Pro is faster than CF
    >and comes in versions that support Sony's copyright protection scheme (not
    >that anyone here (myself included) thinks that that's an advantage<g>)).<g>
    >
    >However, MS does have the problem that it doesn't support microdrive, which
    >is important now that the F828 has a RAW format. Good thing the F828 has
    >both: you can get MS Pro speeds for your jpegs for fast shooting and
    >microdrive capacities for your RAW shots at the flick of a switch.





    But do we need Micro Drives now..?

    I here that they are not to reliable..


    >> That aside, I agree, the SONY batteries are good, they offer improveents
    >> over AA rechargebale NiMH's, I bough one extralong life one for my '99
    >> vintage TRV900 mini dv camcorder (whch takes CF ;) ) that is _still_

    >going
    >> strong, m.stick on the other hand never did offer advantages :)

    >
    >Other than speed, size, weight, and a mechanically better connector. Just as
    >AA battery compartment doors involve excessive force on the hinges, CF cards
    >require excessive force for insertion/removal.
    >
    >(If the above seems silly, that's only because it is: imaging performance is
    >far more important than battery or media type...)
    >
    >David J. Littleboy
    >Tokyo, Japan
    >
    >
     
    Robert Mathews, Aug 20, 2003
    #17
  18. On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 1:22:31 -0400, JK wrote
    (in message <>):

    >>> 3 Sony batteries for my F717 fit nicely in my back pocket
    >>> (levis 501s). I think I could fit six more if I wanted. At 350
    >>> exposures per battery on average, 3 batteries is over a
    >>> thousand pictures..

    >
    > Not if you use the display for long periods.


    You don't understand, do you? A Sony F717 has TWO electronic displays. You
    are ALWAYS running a display whenever you've got the camera turned on, either
    the LCD or the EVF. There is no optical viewfinder.

    When in recording mode, the camera runs up to 235 minutes continuously, when
    in playback mode, 400 plus minutes, per full charge. Each full charge is good
    for about 350 exposures used normally.

    Godfrey
     
    Godfrey DiGiorgi, Aug 20, 2003
    #18
  19. Charlie Self

    JK Guest

    I guess you don't know anyone who has thrown out electronic items since
    they either couldn't find a replacement proprietary battery, or its cost was
    prohibitive? One of my friends threw out a working laser printer since he could
    only get the cartidges from the manufacturer, and the cost was unreasonable.


    Charlie Self wrote:

    > Max Burke responds:
    >
    > > I've got 4-5 sets of NiMh, so don't worry at all about
    > >> running out of batteries in the middle of a session.

    > >
    > >So you have to carry around 16 - 20 batteries....
    > >I only need one, but carry a spare one that are only the size and weight
    > >of *THREE* AA's....

    >
    > 98% of my shooting is done in my workshop. I don't carry ANYTHING.
    >
    > >> How many people have you even heard of who are using non-rechargeable
    > >> AAs in cameras?

    > >
    > >Most people that use digital cameras, until they find out that they dont
    > >last very long; Then they find out they have to buy 16 - 20 rechargables
    > >to carry around with them, unless they have a Sony camera that uses Sony
    > >batteries. Then that 'situation' just doesn't figure in how we use our
    > >cameras.....

    >
    > Oh, nonsense. Most people who use digital cameras, at least the few dozen I
    > know, do NOT use non-rechargeables. Those that do seem to take the
    > manufacturer's inclusion of batteries as a marker for what's needed, without
    > ever reading the manual.
    >
    > If Sony offered a camera that would work in a way that I needed it, I'd have
    > bought one way back when. But the F717 is limited in lighting selection in
    > studio and close up work, so I didn't.
    >
    > I still feel that anyone who lets the battery be the arbiter in any decision to
    > buy a camera, whether selecting for proprietary or AA, is foolish. I bought my
    > camera for other reasons. It takes AA. I find AA absolutely no inconvenience.
    >
    > But, hey, as True Believer, you are doing fine.
    >
    > Charlie Self
    >
    > "A low voter turnout is an indication of fewer people going to the polls."
    > Dan Quayle
    >
    >
     
    JK, Aug 20, 2003
    #19
  20. The Memory Stick PRO basics on <http://www.memorystick.com/> states:

    "In addition to serial transfer, Memory Stick PRO media supports parallel
    transfer to enable simultaneous transmission/reception of multiple data. In
    the parallel mode, data is transferred at speeds up to 160Mbps (theoretical
    value), making it possible to record DVD-quality moving images in real time*.
    With this high speed, Memory Stick PRO media also supports the advanced
    solutions that will be brought about in the coming broadband era.

    * When Memory Stick PRO media is used in a product that supports parallel
    transfer.

    ....
    To meet the requirement of high-quality video recording, the minimum write
    speed has been standardized at 15Mbps. When used with an optimized Memory
    Stick PRO-compatible product*, Memory Stick PRO media can write at speeds of
    15Mbps or higher -- fast enough to record DVD-quality video, which is
    recorded at 9Mbps. Even if power is interrupted during recording due to
    battery depletion, etc., data recorded up to that moment is not lost. With
    this media, users can efficiently and smoothly record massive volumes of
    data.
    * When the write speed of the compatible product is also more than 15Mbps. "
    ----
    Sandisk says this about their fastest CF cards, the Ultra CompactFlash, at
    <http://www.sandisk.com/consumer/ultra.asp>:

    "Advanced Features:
    Highest transfer rate for fast copy/download; up to 2.8 MB per second or more
    than twice the sustained write speed of SanDisk's standard products."
    ----

    Based on these statements, the Memory Stick PRO standardized minimum write
    speed is 15Mbps with a potential of greater than 10x that, in fast devices,
    where only the top of the line CF cards achieve up to 2.8MB/sec (or 22Mbps),
    where most are under 10Mbps.

    Godfrey

    On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 12:40:17 -0400, Bill Frank wrote
    (in message <>):

    > While the theoretical maximum transfer speed is 20MB/sec for the Memory
    > Stick PRO, the spec for the Memory Stick PRO write transfer speed is 15Mbps
    > (15Mbits/sec or about 2MB/sec).with optimized Memory Stick PRO format
    > compatible devices. Almost all CompactFlash cards shipping today have
    > sustained write data rates of 2-6MB/sec. So, it seems that the Memory Stick
    > PRO is slower than most CF cards.
    >
    > Bill Frank
    > CompactFlash Association
     
    Godfrey DiGiorgi, Aug 20, 2003
    #20
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