Re: Sony develops back-illuminated CMOS sensor, with twofold sensitivityand low noise

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Don Stauffer, Jul 11, 2009.

  1. Don Stauffer

    Don Stauffer Guest

    Alfred Molon wrote:
    > Seems to be old news, but I can't remember having seen this posted here:
    >
    > http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/200806/08-069E/index.html
    >
    > "The newly developed CMOS image sensor achieves a signal-to-noise ratio
    > of +8dB(+6dB sensitivity, -2dB noise) in comparison to existing Sony
    > CMOS image sensors of the same pixel size. Sony will apply this back-
    > illuminated CMOS technology in consumer digital video camcorders and
    > digital still cameras to deliver an even higher quality image
    > experience."
    >
    > Pixel pitch 1.75 µ, 5MP
    >
    > In any case, this technology has no reached the consumer sector.



    Something seems not quite right. 8db is not a great SNR in my book.
    Don Stauffer, Jul 11, 2009
    #1
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  2. Don Stauffer

    TheRealSteve Guest

    Re: Sony develops back-illuminated CMOS sensor, with twofold sensitivity and low noise

    On Sat, 11 Jul 2009 09:04:28 -0500, Don Stauffer
    <> wrote:

    >Alfred Molon wrote:
    >> Seems to be old news, but I can't remember having seen this posted here:
    >>
    >> http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/200806/08-069E/index.html
    >>
    >> "The newly developed CMOS image sensor achieves a signal-to-noise ratio
    >> of +8dB(+6dB sensitivity, -2dB noise) in comparison to existing Sony
    >> CMOS image sensors of the same pixel size. Sony will apply this back-
    >> illuminated CMOS technology in consumer digital video camcorders and
    >> digital still cameras to deliver an even higher quality image
    >> experience."
    >>
    >> Pixel pitch 1.75 µ, 5MP
    >>
    >> In any case, this technology has no reached the consumer sector.

    >
    >
    >Something seems not quite right. 8db is not a great SNR in my book.


    Sounds like it's saying that it's 8db *better* than existing Sony CMOS
    sensors of the same pixel size. 8db *better* SNR is huge in the world
    of signal processing.

    Steve
    TheRealSteve, Jul 11, 2009
    #2
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  3. Don Stauffer

    SMS Guest

    Don Stauffer wrote:
    > Alfred Molon wrote:
    >> Seems to be old news, but I can't remember having seen this posted here:
    >>
    >> http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/200806/08-069E/index.html
    >>
    >> "The newly developed CMOS image sensor achieves a signal-to-noise
    >> ratio of +8dB(+6dB sensitivity, -2dB noise) in comparison to existing
    >> Sony CMOS image sensors of the same pixel size. Sony will apply this
    >> back-
    >> illuminated CMOS technology in consumer digital video camcorders and
    >> digital still cameras to deliver an even higher quality image
    >> experience."
    >>
    >> Pixel pitch 1.75 µ, 5MP
    >>
    >> In any case, this technology has no reached the consumer sector.

    >
    >
    > Something seems not quite right. 8db is not a great SNR in my book.


    You're right, but remember these are small sensors with a small pixel
    pitch. A full frame sensor will typically have a SNR of over 35dB, and a
    pixel pitch 4-5 times larger. A typical professional video camera will
    have an SNR of over 60db.

    Maybe 8dB is an improvement in the consumer market.
    SMS, Jul 11, 2009
    #3
  4. Don Stauffer

    SMS Guest

    Alfred Molon wrote:
    > In article <Dz16m.15258$>, SMS says...
    >
    >> Maybe 8dB is an improvement in the consumer market.

    >
    > An increment of 8dB is an increase by a factor of 2.5. Very significant
    > in any sector - both consumer and professional.


    That article didn't say "an increment".
    SMS, Jul 11, 2009
    #4
  5. Don Stauffer

    Paul Furman Guest

    Alfred Molon wrote:
    > SMS says...
    >> Alfred Molon wrote:
    >>> SMS says...
    >>>
    >>>> You're right, but remember these are small sensors with a small pixel pitch. A full frame sensor will typically have a SNR of over 35dB, and a pixel pitch 4-5 times larger. A typical professional video camera will have an SNR of over 60db.
    >>>>
    >>>> Maybe 8dB is an improvement in the consumer market.
    >>>
    >>> An increment of 8dB is an increase by a factor of 2.5.


    So it was 12dB, now 20dB?

    >>> Very significant
    >>> in any sector - both consumer and professional.

    >>
    >> That article didn't say "an increment".

    >
    > It says "Signal-to-noise ratio improvement of +8dB", i.e. 8dB more = an
    > increment of 8 dB.



    --
    Paul Furman
    www.edgehill.net
    www.baynatives.com

    all google groups messages filtered due to spam
    Paul Furman, Jul 11, 2009
    #5
  6. Re: Sony develops back-illuminated CMOS sensor, with twofold sensitivity and low noise

    wrote:
    > On Sat, 11 Jul 2009 09:04:28 -0500, Don Stauffer
    > <> wrote:


    >>Alfred Molon wrote:
    >>> Seems to be old news, but I can't remember having seen this posted here:
    >>>
    >>> http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/200806/08-069E/index.html
    >>>
    >>> "The newly developed CMOS image sensor achieves a signal-to-noise ratio
    >>> of +8dB(+6dB sensitivity, -2dB noise) in comparison to existing Sony
    >>> CMOS image sensors of the same pixel size. Sony will apply this back-
    >>> illuminated CMOS technology in consumer digital video camcorders and
    >>> digital still cameras to deliver an even higher quality image
    >>> experience."
    >>>
    >>> Pixel pitch 1.75 ?, 5MP
    >>>
    >>> In any case, this technology has no reached the consumer sector.

    >>
    >>
    >>Something seems not quite right. 8db is not a great SNR in my book.


    > It doesn't say that. It says "in comparison"


    It says +8db, not 8, and what is more specifies that the +8 is made up
    of +6 sensitivity and -2 noise. None of that makes any sense at all
    except in terms of comparative differences. Numerical db differentials
    are usually how engineers make these comparisons.

    --
    Chris Malcolm
    Chris Malcolm, Jul 11, 2009
    #6
  7. Don Stauffer

    ASAAR Guest

    Re: Sony develops back-illuminated CMOS sensor, with twofold sensitivity and low noise

    On Sat, 11 Jul 2009 09:04:28 -0500, Don Stauffer wrote:

    >> "The newly developed CMOS image sensor achieves a signal-to-noise ratio
    >> of +8dB(+6dB sensitivity, -2dB noise) in comparison to existing Sony
    >> CMOS image sensors of the same pixel size. Sony will apply this back-
    >> illuminated CMOS technology in consumer digital video camcorders and
    >> digital still cameras to deliver an even higher quality image
    >> experience."
    >>
    >> Pixel pitch 1.75 µ, 5MP
    >>
    >> In any case, this technology has no reached the consumer sector.

    >
    >
    > Something seems not quite right. 8db is not a great SNR in my book.


    I've seen a couple of posts in the DPR forums by those who seem to
    be quite knowledgeable claiming that backlighting does work, but
    that the larger the pixel size, the less effective it becomes. Have
    you heard anything like this?
    ASAAR, Jul 11, 2009
    #7
  8. Don Stauffer

    ASAAR Guest

    Re: Sony develops back-illuminated CMOS sensor, with twofold sensitivity and low noise

    On Sat, 11 Jul 2009 16:01:00 -0500, Idiots R US wrote:

    >> I've seen a couple of posts in the DPR forums by those who seem to
    >> be quite knowledgeable claiming that backlighting does work, but
    >> that the larger the pixel size, the less effective it becomes. Have
    >> you heard anything like this?

    >
    > Well duh, ASSAR, one only has to see the kindergartner's graphics on that
    > page to see why.
    >
    > Holy **** are you ever an idiot troll. Not even a half-assed one.


    Must be, since I didn't explicitly point out that this useful new
    sensor design would obviously be more beneficial for your teeny
    pixel P&S buddies and less useful for the DSLRs that you loathe. You
    seem to be devolving by the hour. Is there anything we can do to
    help?


    . . .

    Speed up the process, that is. :)
    ASAAR, Jul 11, 2009
    #8
  9. Don Stauffer

    ASAAR Guest

    Re: Sony develops back-illuminated CMOS sensor, with twofold sensitivity and low noise

    On Sun, 12 Jul 2009 00:45:53 +0200, Alfred Molon wrote:

    > The problem with front-illumination is among others the wiring
    > obstructing the image sensitive area.
    >
    > With huge pixels the percentage of pixel area covered by wiring is
    > probably smaller than with small pixelsand this could be a factor.


    Sounds reasonable, but then other than the placement of the wires,
    is there any significant difference between front and rear
    illumination sensels and possibly the semiconductor's type (such as
    P vs. N) first exposed to photons?
    ASAAR, Jul 12, 2009
    #9
  10. Re: Sony develops back-illuminated CMOS sensor, with twofold sensitivity and low noise

    ? "ASAAR" <> ?????? ??? ??????
    news:...
    > On Sun, 12 Jul 2009 00:45:53 +0200, Alfred Molon wrote:
    >
    >> The problem with front-illumination is among others the wiring
    >> obstructing the image sensitive area.
    >>
    >> With huge pixels the percentage of pixel area covered by wiring is
    >> probably smaller than with small pixelsand this could be a factor.

    >
    > Sounds reasonable, but then other than the placement of the wires,
    > is there any significant difference between front and rear
    > illumination sensels and possibly the semiconductor's type (such as
    > P vs. N) first exposed to photons?
    >

    I think greater quantum efficiency.


    --
    Tzortzakakis Dimitris
    major in electrical engineering
    mechanized infantry reservist
    hordad AT otenet DOT gr
    Tzortzakakis Dimitrios, Jul 12, 2009
    #10
  11. Don Stauffer

    Paul Furman Guest

    Alfred Molon wrote:
    > In article <h3ap2a$m7q$-september.org>, Paul Furman
    > says...
    >> Alfred Molon wrote:
    >>> SMS says...
    >>>> Alfred Molon wrote:
    >>>>> SMS says...
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> You're right, but remember these are small sensors with a small pixel pitch. A full frame sensor will typically have a SNR of over 35dB, and a pixel pitch 4-5 times larger. A typical professional video camera will have an SNR of over 60db.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Maybe 8dB is an improvement in the consumer market.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> An increment of 8dB is an increase by a factor of 2.5.

    >> So it was 12dB, now 20dB?

    >
    > What was 12 dB?


    Whatever increased by 8 dB, I don't know.

    --
    Paul Furman
    www.edgehill.net
    www.baynatives.com

    all google groups messages filtered due to spam
    Paul Furman, Jul 14, 2009
    #11
  12. Don Stauffer

    Paul Furman Guest

    ASAAR wrote:
    > Is there anything we can do to help?


    use the term:
    "CROP FACTOR"!!


    > . . .
    >
    > Speed up the process, that is. :)
    Paul Furman, Jul 14, 2009
    #12
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