Re: Some interesting WWII images from The Atlantic

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Higgs Boson, Oct 22, 2011.

  1. Higgs Boson

    Higgs Boson Guest

    On Oct 17, 10:37 pm, Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com>
    wrote:
    > On 2011-10-17 22:29:55 -0700, Savageduck said:
    >
    > > <
    > >http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2011/10/world-war-ii-the-fall-of-n...

    >
    > Here is the main page for the series, there are two more to be published.
    >
    > <http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/ww2.html>
    >
    > --
    > Regards,
    >
    > Savageduck


    First one I clicked on was Operation Barbarossa. The Atlantic
    subtitle was: ""The Soviets were unprepared for the sudden blitzkreig
    (misspelled; should be blitzkrieg) attacks across a border that
    spanned nearly 2,900 km (1,800 mi), and suffered horrible losses."

    Misleading, big time! The Soviet ARMY and generals were prepared!
    They warned Stalin over & over about the Germans massing at the
    border. Stalin stubbornly refused to believe his German allies would
    turn on him. Up to the last minute, the Soviet generals were begging
    Stalin to take action, but he was the dictator
    so nothing was done to stop the German attack. When they entered
    Soviet territory, Stalin became near-catatonic with fear and anguish;
    for TWO WEEKS he refused to emerge from his funk and order counter-
    action. Had this bloody dictator listened to the professional
    military men who desperately wanted to protect their country,
    Operation Barbarossa might have fizzled. The irony is that not too
    much later Stalin ordered the execution of these very same brave
    officers.
    Higgs Boson, Oct 22, 2011
    #1
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  2. Higgs Boson

    Bruce Guest

    Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
    >
    >The British had been leaking information to the Soviets for weeks
    >before the start of Barbarossa, all of which told of the German build
    >up and impending operations to the East. This information had been
    >filtered through different agents in Switzerland & Eastern Europe so as
    >not to reveal the source at Bletchley Park and the breach of the
    >"Enigma" codes. Stalin in his paranoia refused to accept any of this
    >intelligence from the West.



    Operation Barbarossa started in December 1940. But the following
    reference suggests that "Only in 1941 did Enigma decrypts pay
    dividends." If that was true, how could Enigma decrypts at Bletchley
    Park have contributed to prior warnings of Barbarossa?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/enigma_01.shtml

    (reference is about half way down that page)
    Bruce, Oct 22, 2011
    #2
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  3. Higgs Boson

    Bruce Guest

    Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
    >On 2011-10-22 15:08:35 -0700, Bruce <> said:
    >> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
    >>> The British had been leaking information to the Soviets for weeks
    >>> before the start of Barbarossa, all of which told of the German build
    >>> up and impending operations to the East. This information had been
    >>> filtered through different agents in Switzerland & Eastern Europe so as
    >>> not to reveal the source at Bletchley Park and the breach of the
    >>> "Enigma" codes. Stalin in his paranoia refused to accept any of this
    >>> intelligence from the West.

    >>
    >>
    >> Operation Barbarossa started in December 1940. But the following
    >> reference suggests that "Only in 1941 did Enigma decrypts pay
    >> dividends." If that was true, how could Enigma decrypts at Bletchley
    >> Park have contributed to prior warnings of Barbarossa?
    >>
    >> http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/enigma_01.shtml
    >>
    >> (reference is about half way down that page)

    >
    >I might have overstated the total Enigma influence, and while your
    >statement is correct, particularly with regard to the North Atlantic
    >Campaign and the anti-UBoat operations, there were different versions
    >of enigma used by German navy, army, and command.
    >
    >The decoders at Bletchley Park were already using 3 & 4 wheel enigma
    >machines built & provided by Polish intelligence in 1939, and this was
    >the key to much of the initial Bletchley Park product not related to
    >naval operations. This included intelligence on Barbarossa and much of
    >the North African operations. All of the product of the decoders at
    >Bletchley Park and ultimately the US decoding teams was termed "Ultra"
    >to obscure allied knowledge of Enigma, which was an actual brand name
    >attached to the machines, and the existence of "Colossus" which only
    >became fully operational in 1944.
    >
    >So there was "Enigma" derived intelligence obtained early in the war,
    >and that included British awareness of Barbarossa, and an ignored
    >attempt to warn Stalin, prior to the dividends gained after 1941.
    >
    >As early as August 1940, British Intelligence had some information
    >regarding Hitler's approval of plans for Barbarossa, and warnings were
    >transmitted to the Soviets. However Stalin distrusted the British,
    >believing this was a British trick to bring Russia into the war, and so
    >he ignored the warnings. He still trusted the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.
    >In the Spring of 1941 there were further warnings from US, British, and
    >Stalin's own Intelligence services. He chose to ignore these warnings.
    >He still believed this was a British plot to trigger a USSR-German war
    >and issued orders to Soviet border troops were not to be placed on
    >alert and they were forbidden from returning fire without permission if
    >attacked.



    Thanks. You clearly put your spare time to very good use. ;-)
    Bruce, Oct 23, 2011
    #3
  4. Higgs Boson

    Bruce Guest

    Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
    >On 2011-10-23 10:01:41 -0700, Bruce <> said:
    >> Thanks. You clearly put your spare time to very good use. ;-)

    >
    >Absolutely!
    >Retirement is a fine thing for the obsessive researcher. You should try
    >it some day.



    Retirement or obsessive searching? I am already planning the former,
    not sure about the latter. ;-)
    Bruce, Oct 23, 2011
    #4
  5. Higgs Boson

    Pete A Guest

    On 2011-10-23 19:13:45 +0100, Bruce said:

    > Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
    >> On 2011-10-23 10:01:41 -0700, Bruce <> said:
    >>> Thanks. You clearly put your spare time to very good use. ;-)

    >>
    >> Absolutely!
    >> Retirement is a fine thing for the obsessive researcher. You should try
    >> it some day.

    >
    >
    > Retirement or obsessive searching? I am already planning the former,
    > not sure about the latter. ;-)


    I've done the former and do the latter. I would not recommend the latter ;-)
    Pete A, Oct 23, 2011
    #5
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