Re: Sigma's new 45MP camera

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Pete Stavrakoglou, May 20, 2011.

  1. "Alfred Molon" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > "Only" $9700, but at least now they have a model with a competitive
    > resolution (15MP full colour, which should be on par with 22MP Bayer
    > cameras).
    > --


    More likely on par with a 30MP Bayer. The Foveon has consistenly resolved about
    twice it's actual MP measurement compared to a Bayer. But at $ 9,700.00, Sigma
    is insane. Even if this is an MSRP and the street price is lower like their
    lenses, how much lower can it actually be? Their cameras have sold for MSRP
    when released. I can't see anyone buying this. It was stated that this would
    cost in the range of a Canon 7D although that claim was never official. Now
    comes this announcement and it's simply insane. I've seen large prints from
    this and handled the camera. IT's a very nice body and the prints are fantastic
    but $ 9,700.00? No way, not when the feature set is lacking compared to cheap
    DSLRs. Features were never improtant to me. I like the simplicity of the SD14.
    But when my Canon 7D betters the SD1 in everything other than resolution (body
    construction seems to be on a par), I just scratch my balding head at Sigma's
    decision to price it this way. Maybe the yield on the sensor is so low that
    it's not price-efficient to produce. Still, I just can't believe how they've
    priced this. I was planning to buy one anticipating a competitive price but
    even at 1/3 the price, it's far too much.
     
    Pete Stavrakoglou, May 20, 2011
    #1
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  2. Pete Stavrakoglou

    nospam Guest

    In article <ir6fq8$m91$>, Pete Stavrakoglou
    <> wrote:

    > > "Only" $9700, but at least now they have a model with a competitive
    > > resolution (15MP full colour, which should be on par with 22MP Bayer
    > > cameras).

    >
    > More likely on par with a 30MP Bayer. The Foveon has consistenly resolved
    > about twice it's actual MP measurement compared to a Bayer.


    not in any objective test it hasn't.

    > But at $ 9,700.00, Sigma
    > is insane.


    what were they thinking? it's priced in the range of pentax, mamiya and
    hasselblad medium format cameras, which have vastly larger sensors and
    therefore much higher image quality.

    > Even if this is an MSRP and the street price is lower like their
    > lenses, how much lower can it actually be? Their cameras have sold for MSRP
    > when released.


    i think you mean they sold for less than msrp, generally *much* less.
    the sd14's msrp was $2000. it initially sold for $1600 street and
    dropped to $400 or so.

    > I can't see anyone buying this. It was stated that this
    > would cost in the range of a Canon 7D although that claim was never official.


    the top dog of sigma said it in an interview, it doesn't get more
    official than that.
     
    nospam, May 20, 2011
    #2
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  3. "nospam" <> wrote in message
    news:200520111630424576%...
    > In article <ir6fq8$m91$>, Pete Stavrakoglou
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >> > "Only" $9700, but at least now they have a model with a competitive
    >> > resolution (15MP full colour, which should be on par with 22MP Bayer
    >> > cameras).

    >>
    >> More likely on par with a 30MP Bayer. The Foveon has consistenly resolved
    >> about twice it's actual MP measurement compared to a Bayer.

    >
    > not in any objective test it hasn't.


    There haven't been any tests yet but every Foveon sensor has done so, wait until
    you see some real testing, then you'll see.

    >> But at $ 9,700.00, Sigma
    >> is insane.

    >
    > what were they thinking? it's priced in the range of pentax, mamiya and
    > hasselblad medium format cameras, which have vastly larger sensors and
    > therefore much higher image quality.
    >
    >> Even if this is an MSRP and the street price is lower like their
    >> lenses, how much lower can it actually be? Their cameras have sold for MSRP
    >> when released.

    >
    > i think you mean they sold for less than msrp, generally *much* less.
    > the sd14's msrp was $2000. it initially sold for $1600 street and
    > dropped to $400 or so.


    You are incorrect. The MSRP of the SD14 was $ 1,600.00 US and £ 1099.99 and it
    sold for that for some time.

    >
    >> I can't see anyone buying this. It was stated that this
    >> would cost in the range of a Canon 7D although that claim was never official.

    >
    > the top dog of sigma said it in an interview, it doesn't get more
    > official than that.


    No he didn't. "7D pricing" was attributed to a Sigma rep but never
    substantiated.
     
    Pete Stavrakoglou, May 20, 2011
    #3
  4. Pete Stavrakoglou

    RichA Guest

    On May 20, 4:55 pm, "Pete Stavrakoglou" <> wrote:
    > "nospam" <> wrote in message
    >


    >
    > No he didn't.  "7D pricing" was attributed to a Sigma rep but never
    > substantiated.


    It does seem like an error. There is nothing that would require a
    $9700 price for that thing. $1600 is likely. $900 three months after
    launch!
     
    RichA, May 20, 2011
    #4
  5. Pete Stavrakoglou

    nospam Guest

    In article <ir6kg8$ltp$>, Pete Stavrakoglou
    <> wrote:

    > >> > "Only" $9700, but at least now they have a model with a competitive
    > >> > resolution (15MP full colour, which should be on par with 22MP Bayer
    > >> > cameras).
    > >>
    > >> More likely on par with a 30MP Bayer. The Foveon has consistenly resolved
    > >> about twice it's actual MP measurement compared to a Bayer.

    > >
    > > not in any objective test it hasn't.

    >
    > There haven't been any tests yet


    not of the sd1, but there have been many, many tests for the 4.7mp
    sd14/dp1 sensor (used in all of their recent models), and according to
    dpreview, it is 'not competitive with 10mp nikon d60.'

    > but every Foveon sensor has done so,


    no it hasn't. see above.

    > wait until you see some real testing, then you'll see.


    see what? what if it doesn't live up to the hype? do you think dpreview
    is going to review this, especially when they haven't reviewed the sd14
    or sd15?

    > >> Even if this is an MSRP and the street price is lower like their
    > >> lenses, how much lower can it actually be? Their cameras have sold for
    > >> MSRP when released.

    > >
    > > i think you mean they sold for less than msrp, generally *much* less.
    > > the sd14's msrp was $2000. it initially sold for $1600 street and
    > > dropped to $400 or so.

    >
    > You are incorrect. The MSRP of the SD14 was $ 1,600.00 US and £ 1099.99 and
    > it sold for that for some time.


    nope. it was $1999. i probably still have the flyer from the photo plus
    expo that says that, but this is all i can find right now:

    http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1027&message=20244779

    Available November 25th for $1999.99.

    <http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1027&message=20421552

    I just received an email from Sigma USA announcing the SD14 camera
    with a MSRP of $1999.

    initial street price was $1599, then the price was cut to $1200 about
    2-3 months later, which started its plummet to $400 or so. there's no
    way in hell they were making any money blowing them out at $400 each.

    wait a little while, the sd1 will drop to $970.00 :)

    > >> I can't see anyone buying this. It was stated that this
    > >> would cost in the range of a Canon 7D although that claim was never
    > >> official.

    > >
    > > the top dog of sigma said it in an interview, it doesn't get more
    > > official than that.

    >
    > No he didn't. "7D pricing" was attributed to a Sigma rep but never
    > substantiated.


    you're right, it looks like it was the general manger of sigma usa, not
    yamaki himself, so #2 dog.

    <http://news.cnet.com/8301-30685_3-20017073-264.html>

    Sigma didn't announce prices, but Amir-Hamzeh said it would be "very
    competitive" and in the neighborhood of Canon's higher-end EOS 7D,
    which costs about $1,500 with no lens and $1,700 with a 28-135mm kit
    lens.
     
    nospam, May 20, 2011
    #5
  6. $ 900.00, no. $ 1,600.00, yes, that's more like it. Maybe the cost of
    fabricating the sensor turned out to be so darn high that they abandoned any
    plans to sell it as a competitor to the 7D.

    "RichA" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    On May 20, 4:55 pm, "Pete Stavrakoglou" <> wrote:
    > "nospam" <> wrote in message
    >


    >
    > No he didn't. "7D pricing" was attributed to a Sigma rep but never
    > substantiated.


    It does seem like an error. There is nothing that would require a
    $9700 price for that thing. $1600 is likely. $900 three months after
    launch!
     
    Pete Stavrakoglou, May 23, 2011
    #6
  7. "nospam" <> wrote in message
    news:200520111847598759%...
    > In article <ir6kg8$ltp$>, Pete Stavrakoglou
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >> >> > "Only" $9700, but at least now they have a model with a competitive
    >> >> > resolution (15MP full colour, which should be on par with 22MP Bayer
    >> >> > cameras).
    >> >>
    >> >> More likely on par with a 30MP Bayer. The Foveon has consistenly resolved
    >> >> about twice it's actual MP measurement compared to a Bayer.
    >> >
    >> > not in any objective test it hasn't.

    >>
    >> There haven't been any tests yet

    >
    > not of the sd1, but there have been many, many tests for the 4.7mp
    > sd14/dp1 sensor (used in all of their recent models), and according to
    > dpreview, it is 'not competitive with 10mp nikon d60.'
    >
    >> but every Foveon sensor has done so,

    >
    > no it hasn't. see above.
    >
    >> wait until you see some real testing, then you'll see.

    >
    > see what? what if it doesn't live up to the hype? do you think dpreview
    > is going to review this, especially when they haven't reviewed the sd14
    > or sd15?


    Yes, they'll review it, they already have done their preview.

    >> >> Even if this is an MSRP and the street price is lower like their
    >> >> lenses, how much lower can it actually be? Their cameras have sold for
    >> >> MSRP when released.
    >> >
    >> > i think you mean they sold for less than msrp, generally *much* less.
    >> > the sd14's msrp was $2000. it initially sold for $1600 street and
    >> > dropped to $400 or so.

    >>
    >> You are incorrect. The MSRP of the SD14 was $ 1,600.00 US and £ 1099.99 and
    >> it sold for that for some time.

    >
    > nope. it was $1999. i probably still have the flyer from the photo plus
    > expo that says that, but this is all i can find right now:
    >
    > http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1027&message=20244779
    >
    > Available November 25th for $1999.99.
    >
    > <http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1027&message=20421552


    You're citing an Amazon pre-release price as accurate? It's not. The announced
    MSRP was $ 1600.00

    http://khuong.com/journal/?p=264

    http://www.dpreview.com/news/0609/06092605sigmasd14.asp#specs

    It's not hard to find this information.

    >
    > I just received an email from Sigma USA announcing the SD14 camera
    > with a MSRP of $1999.


    > initial street price was $1599, then the price was cut to $1200 about
    > 2-3 months later, which started its plummet to $400 or so. there's no
    > way in hell they were making any money blowing them out at $400 each.
    >
    > wait a little while, the sd1 will drop to $970.00 :)
    >
    >> >> I can't see anyone buying this. It was stated that this
    >> >> would cost in the range of a Canon 7D although that claim was never
    >> >> official.
    >> >
    >> > the top dog of sigma said it in an interview, it doesn't get more
    >> > official than that.

    >>
    >> No he didn't. "7D pricing" was attributed to a Sigma rep but never
    >> substantiated.

    >
    > you're right, it looks like it was the general manger of sigma usa, not
    > yamaki himself, so #2 dog.


    To set the record straight, Mark Amir-Hamzeh is not #2 dog. Yamaki the elder is
    #1, his son is #2. Mark is the GM at Sigma USA and there is someone over him
    there.

    >
    > <http://news.cnet.com/8301-30685_3-20017073-264.html>
    >
    > Sigma didn't announce prices, but Amir-Hamzeh said it would be "very
    > competitive" and in the neighborhood of Canon's higher-end EOS 7D,
    > which costs about $1,500 with no lens and $1,700 with a 28-135mm kit
    > lens.
     
    Pete Stavrakoglou, May 23, 2011
    #7
  8. Pete Stavrakoglou

    nospam Guest

    In article <irdjva$rhk$>, Pete Stavrakoglou
    <> wrote:

    > > see what? what if it doesn't live up to the hype? do you think dpreview
    > > is going to review this, especially when they haven't reviewed the sd14
    > > or sd15?

    >
    > Yes, they'll review it, they already have done their preview.


    so they have. that was just posted this morning. a preview is a lot
    less work than a full review. be careful for what you wish for, because
    based on the samples sigma posted, it is not going to fare all that
    well and its price already makes it non-competitive so it could never
    get a top rating even if the images didn't have issues.

    > >> >> Even if this is an MSRP and the street price is lower like their
    > >> >> lenses, how much lower can it actually be? Their cameras have sold for
    > >> >> MSRP when released.
    > >> >
    > >> > i think you mean they sold for less than msrp, generally *much* less.
    > >> > the sd14's msrp was $2000. it initially sold for $1600 street and
    > >> > dropped to $400 or so.
    > >>
    > >> You are incorrect. The MSRP of the SD14 was $ 1,600.00 US and £ 1099.99
    > >> and it sold for that for some time.

    > >
    > > nope. it was $1999. i probably still have the flyer from the photo plus
    > > expo that says that, but this is all i can find right now:
    > >
    > > http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1027&message=20244779
    > >
    > > Available November 25th for $1999.99.
    > >
    > > <http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1027&message=20421552

    >
    > You're citing an Amazon pre-release price as accurate?


    i'm citing two people who received direct information about its price,
    one of which was amazon and the other was an email from sigma
    themselves. certainly you consider sigma to be an authoritative source,
    do you not?

    > It's not. The announced MSRP was $ 1600.00


    the announced *street price* was $1600.

    the msrp was $1999, and i distinctly remember seeing that. it's hard to
    find anything about the msrp online now because the camera is long
    discontinued and was heavily discounted shortly after launch.

    > http://khuong.com/journal/?p=264


    that doesn't say the msrp was $1600, only that it sold for $1600 which
    it did, initially.

    > http://www.dpreview.com/news/0609/06092605sigmasd14.asp#specs


    that says £1099.99, and according to today's currency conversion (using
    google), is $1773.63, which is clearly higher than the $1600 you claim
    it was.

    > It's not hard to find this information.


    you're right, it isn't.

    looking at the historical conversion rates for 2006, £1099.99 was
    approximately $2000 (actually slightly higher).

    the press release was dated september 26, 2006 and the conversion rate
    for that month was 1.88711, so the msrp would have been $2075.80 with a
    direct conversion. sigma just rounded down to $1999 for the official
    msrp.

    <http://www.gocurrency.com/v2/historic-exchange-rates.php?ccode2=GBP&cco
    de=USD&frMonth=8&frDay=26&frYear=2006>

    > >> >> I can't see anyone buying this. It was stated that this
    > >> >> would cost in the range of a Canon 7D although that claim was never
    > >> >> official.
    > >> >
    > >> > the top dog of sigma said it in an interview, it doesn't get more
    > >> > official than that.
    > >>
    > >> No he didn't. "7D pricing" was attributed to a Sigma rep but never
    > >> substantiated.

    > >
    > > you're right, it looks like it was the general manger of sigma usa, not
    > > yamaki himself, so #2 dog.

    >
    > To set the record straight, Mark Amir-Hamzeh is not #2 dog. Yamaki the elder
    > is #1, his son is #2. Mark is the GM at Sigma USA and there is someone over him
    > there.


    ok, call him #4 but it doesn't really matter. mark amir-hamzeh is not a
    random sigma employee who has no idea what's going on and spouts a
    random price. he's the general manager of sigma usa and he's
    responsible for what sigma does here. anything he says carries a lot of
    weight. also from what i read on the sigma forum, the '7d price' was
    backed up by yamaki as well.

    in any event, sigma never said that they were trying to make the worlds
    most expensive 1.5x crop sensor dslr, and not just by a little, but by
    a lot. that's why people are pissed.
     
    nospam, May 23, 2011
    #8
  9. "nospam" <> wrote in message
    news:230520110835509472%...
    > In article <irdjva$rhk$>, Pete Stavrakoglou
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >> > see what? what if it doesn't live up to the hype? do you think dpreview
    >> > is going to review this, especially when they haven't reviewed the sd14
    >> > or sd15?

    >>
    >> Yes, they'll review it, they already have done their preview.

    >
    > so they have. that was just posted this morning. a preview is a lot
    > less work than a full review. be careful for what you wish for, because
    > based on the samples sigma posted, it is not going to fare all that
    > well and its price already makes it non-competitive so it could never
    > get a top rating even if the images didn't have issues.
    >
    >> >> >> Even if this is an MSRP and the street price is lower like their
    >> >> >> lenses, how much lower can it actually be? Their cameras have sold for
    >> >> >> MSRP when released.
    >> >> >
    >> >> > i think you mean they sold for less than msrp, generally *much* less.
    >> >> > the sd14's msrp was $2000. it initially sold for $1600 street and
    >> >> > dropped to $400 or so.
    >> >>
    >> >> You are incorrect. The MSRP of the SD14 was $ 1,600.00 US and £ 1099.99
    >> >> and it sold for that for some time.
    >> >
    >> > nope. it was $1999. i probably still have the flyer from the photo plus
    >> > expo that says that, but this is all i can find right now:
    >> >
    >> > http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1027&message=20244779
    >> >
    >> > Available November 25th for $1999.99.
    >> >
    >> > <http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1027&message=20421552

    >>
    >> You're citing an Amazon pre-release price as accurate?

    >
    > i'm citing two people who received direct information about its price,
    > one of which was amazon and the other was an email from sigma
    > themselves. certainly you consider sigma to be an authoritative source,
    > do you not?
    >
    >> It's not. The announced MSRP was $ 1600.00

    >
    > the announced *street price* was $1600.
    >
    > the msrp was $1999, and i distinctly remember seeing that. it's hard to
    > find anything about the msrp online now because the camera is long
    > discontinued and was heavily discounted shortly after launch.
    >
    >> http://khuong.com/journal/?p=264

    >
    > that doesn't say the msrp was $1600, only that it sold for $1600 which
    > it did, initially.
    >
    >> http://www.dpreview.com/news/0609/06092605sigmasd14.asp#specs

    >
    > that says £1099.99, and according to today's currency conversion (using
    > google), is $1773.63, which is clearly higher than the $1600 you claim
    > it was.
    >
    >> It's not hard to find this information.

    >
    > you're right, it isn't.
    >
    > looking at the historical conversion rates for 2006, £1099.99 was
    > approximately $2000 (actually slightly higher).


    The pricing doesn't work that way. UK pricing when converted has always been
    higher than US pricing, that's why the Brits are always complaining about how
    much they pay for gear and it's true. You don't take the UK price and convert
    it and say that is the US price. Never has been the case.

    > the press release was dated september 26, 2006 and the conversion rate
    > for that month was 1.88711, so the msrp would have been $2075.80 with a
    > direct conversion. sigma just rounded down to $1999 for the official
    > msrp.


    Conversion rate means nothing, see above.

    > <http://www.gocurrency.com/v2/historic-exchange-rates.php?ccode2=GBP&cco
    > de=USD&frMonth=8&frDay=26&frYear=2006>
    >
    >> >> >> I can't see anyone buying this. It was stated that this
    >> >> >> would cost in the range of a Canon 7D although that claim was never
    >> >> >> official.
    >> >> >
    >> >> > the top dog of sigma said it in an interview, it doesn't get more
    >> >> > official than that.
    >> >>
    >> >> No he didn't. "7D pricing" was attributed to a Sigma rep but never
    >> >> substantiated.
    >> >
    >> > you're right, it looks like it was the general manger of sigma usa, not
    >> > yamaki himself, so #2 dog.

    >>
    >> To set the record straight, Mark Amir-Hamzeh is not #2 dog. Yamaki the elder
    >> is #1, his son is #2. Mark is the GM at Sigma USA and there is someone over
    >> him
    >> there.

    >
    > ok, call him #4 but it doesn't really matter. mark amir-hamzeh is not a
    > random sigma employee who has no idea what's going on and spouts a
    > random price. he's the general manager of sigma usa and he's
    > responsible for what sigma does here. anything he says carries a lot of
    > weight. also from what i read on the sigma forum, the '7d price' was
    > backed up by yamaki as well.
    >
    > in any event, sigma never said that they were trying to make the worlds
    > most expensive 1.5x crop sensor dslr, and not just by a little, but by
    > a lot. that's why people are pissed.
     
    Pete Stavrakoglou, May 23, 2011
    #9
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