Re: Scenic areas in England

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Mike, May 16, 2009.

  1. Mike

    Mike Guest

    On Fri, 15 May 2009 19:29:10 +0100, Chris H <>
    wrote:

    >It is not the guns but the Bozos that want them.


    Up to a point. In UK we have stopped categories of gun being available
    as a bit of a knee jerk reaction to a single case, it might have been
    better to make sure credentials were better or better enforced rather
    than change the categories available to bone fide shooters.

    My main objection is to the falsified logic rather than to guns per
    se. Two lobbies, quite disparate, start from the answer they want and
    reverse engineer their logic to get the question they want. Both have
    to rely on a false definition of "dangerous".
    They are road safety and pro gun.
    One wants drivers to be the focus of blame for accidents (they also
    try to redefine "accident" as "avoidable incident" rather than
    "unintentional incident") so they discount the inherent danger in an
    unguarded cliff or icy bend and insist "all danger lies with drivers",
    instead of the logical "(nearly) all *blame* lies with drivers"
    They use the gun lobby equivalent of "no gun jumped out a box and shot
    somebody" of "no bend ever jumped out in front of a car".
    They choose to try and blur "danger" into "harm", when in fact
    "danger" is the "potential for harm". The risk in this is that it
    ignores both the safety gain available by crash barriers, anti skid
    surfaces, locked away guns etc. If you try to tell them a howitzer is
    more dangerous than a popgun you get the usual rehearsed nonsense that
    makes them sound like Homer Simpson. I don't know if they actually
    know its rubbish or not. But I once spend days pinning down a road
    safety advocate, who eventually pleaded "but don't you want safer
    roads?" so I assume these lies are known to be lies deep down.

    Both court unforeseeable problems when these wooly lies get taken over
    by groups with objectives they do not approve of. The road safety
    people should just say instead "99% of accidents are the
    responsibility(blame) of drivers"
    --
    Mike
     
    Mike, May 16, 2009
    #1
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  2. "Mike" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Fri, 15 May 2009 19:29:10 +0100, Chris H <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >>It is not the guns but the Bozos that want them.

    >
    > Up to a point. In UK we have stopped categories of gun being available
    > as a bit of a knee jerk reaction to a single case, it might have been
    > better to make sure credentials were better or better enforced rather
    > than change the categories available to bone fide shooters.
    >


    Unfortunately it wasnt a single case or had you forgotten Hungerford ?
    They assured everyone they had strenghtened the rules on gun licensing
    after that incident. Then came Dunblane.

    Keith
     
    Keith Willshaw, May 16, 2009
    #2
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  3. Mike

    Chris H Guest

    In message <BcCPl.22298$2>, Keith Willshaw
    <> writes
    >
    >"Mike" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> On Fri, 15 May 2009 19:29:10 +0100, Chris H <>
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >>>It is not the guns but the Bozos that want them.

    >>
    >> Up to a point. In UK we have stopped categories of gun being available
    >> as a bit of a knee jerk reaction to a single case, it might have been
    >> better to make sure credentials were better or better enforced rather
    >> than change the categories available to bone fide shooters.
    >>

    >
    >Unfortunately it wasnt a single case or had you forgotten Hungerford ?
    >They assured everyone they had strenghtened the rules on gun licensing
    >after that incident. Then came Dunblane.


    They had strengthened the rules on gun ownership and banned many guns
    (and lost track of over 100,000 pump and semi auto shotguns*)

    The rules had already stopped Hamilton... the gun clubs had already
    alerted the Police to Hamilton several times in the preceding years and
    the local Police did not want to renew his FAC. This would have avoided
    the tragedy

    --
    \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
    \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
    \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
     
    Chris H, May 16, 2009
    #3
  4. "Chris H" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > In message <BcCPl.22298$2>, Keith Willshaw
    > <> writes
    >>
    >>"Mike" <> wrote in message
    >>news:...
    >>> On Fri, 15 May 2009 19:29:10 +0100, Chris H <>
    >>> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>It is not the guns but the Bozos that want them.
    >>>
    >>> Up to a point. In UK we have stopped categories of gun being available
    >>> as a bit of a knee jerk reaction to a single case, it might have been
    >>> better to make sure credentials were better or better enforced rather
    >>> than change the categories available to bone fide shooters.
    >>>

    >>
    >>Unfortunately it wasnt a single case or had you forgotten Hungerford ?
    >>They assured everyone they had strenghtened the rules on gun licensing
    >>after that incident. Then came Dunblane.

    >
    > They had strengthened the rules on gun ownership and banned many guns
    > (and lost track of over 100,000 pump and semi auto shotguns*)
    >
    > The rules had already stopped Hamilton... the gun clubs had already
    > alerted the Police to Hamilton several times in the preceding years and
    > the local Police did not want to renew his FAC. This would have avoided
    > the tragedy
    >


    But they did, the police did NOT oppose the revocation, some junior
    officers thought it was a bad idea and even submitted memoranda stating
    it but in the end his firearms certificate was renewed as senior officers
    felt there was insufficient evidence to oppose the renewal.

    The critical factor was that the system supposed to protect the public
    had tragically failed for a second time. In a country where shooting
    was very much a minority interest it was politically impossible
    for an elected government to ignore the public outcry that ensued.

    Personally I dont think it was justified but I know dammed well that
    all the people I worked with as well as family and friends did.

    Keith
     
    Keith Willshaw, May 16, 2009
    #4
  5. Mike

    Chris H Guest

    In message <VWEPl.154186$2>, Keith Willshaw
    <> writes
    >
    >"Chris H" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> In message <BcCPl.22298$2>, Keith Willshaw
    >> <> writes
    >>>
    >>>"Mike" <> wrote in message
    >>>news:...
    >>>> On Fri, 15 May 2009 19:29:10 +0100, Chris H <>
    >>>> wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>>It is not the guns but the Bozos that want them.
    >>>>
    >>>> Up to a point. In UK we have stopped categories of gun being available
    >>>> as a bit of a knee jerk reaction to a single case, it might have been
    >>>> better to make sure credentials were better or better enforced rather
    >>>> than change the categories available to bone fide shooters.
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>>Unfortunately it wasnt a single case or had you forgotten Hungerford ?
    >>>They assured everyone they had strenghtened the rules on gun licensing
    >>>after that incident. Then came Dunblane.

    >>
    >> They had strengthened the rules on gun ownership and banned many guns
    >> (and lost track of over 100,000 pump and semi auto shotguns*)
    >>
    >> The rules had already stopped Hamilton... the gun clubs had already
    >> alerted the Police to Hamilton several times in the preceding years and
    >> the local Police did not want to renew his FAC. This would have avoided
    >> the tragedy
    >>

    >
    >But they did, the police did NOT oppose the revocation, some junior
    >officers thought it was a bad idea and even submitted memoranda stating
    >it


    SO the firearms team did not want to renew.

    > but in the end his firearms certificate was renewed as senior officers
    >felt there was insufficient evidence to oppose the renewal.


    This is back to front. For a shot gun certificate they had to issue
    unless there was good reason not to. For an FAC they the reverse was
    true. You had to show good cause.

    >The critical factor was that the system supposed to protect the public
    >had tragically failed for a second time.


    No. The Police failed us.

    > In a country where shooting
    >was very much a minority interest it was politically impossible
    >for an elected government to ignore the public outcry that ensued.


    So you are saying the Government reacted to ill informed knee jerk
    reactions that were plain wrong?

    >Personally I dont think it was justified but I know dammed well that
    >all the people I worked with as well as family and friends did.


    The masses are seldom right when led by tabloids.
    --
    \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
    \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
    \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
     
    Chris H, May 17, 2009
    #5
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