Re: scanning black and white negs

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Georges Preddivous, Jul 21, 2004.

  1. "mark kinder" <> wrote in message news:<cd8e4u$mhk$>...

    > can anyone give any tips or recommed a website/book with advice on scanning
    > black and white negs. I'm using a minolta scan dual III on a range of fp4,
    > hp5 etc but am invariably getting poor results (eg poor tonal range, image
    > looks like a photocopy) on negs that I can get a reasonable wet print from.
    > I've tried scanning in colour and converting, changing contrast, exposure
    > etc, but am still a long way from getting a reasonable scan in most cases.
    >
    > thanks in advance
    > mark


    Salutations Mark.

    The digital era is here, and Sigma is taking the lead. Sigma digital
    SLR cameras use the Foveon sensor, which is the only image sensor that
    records colours in 3 layers like film. The Foveon sensor is also the
    only sensor that can capture a true black and white image like B&W
    film. Lose the dinosaur film gear and join this century......buy a
    Sigma SD10 and some Sigma lenses and you will never need to scan
    again.
    Georges Preddivous, Jul 21, 2004
    #1
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  2. Georges Preddivous

    Toralf Lund Guest

    Georges Preddivous wrote:
    > "mark kinder" <> wrote in message news:<cd8e4u$mhk$>...
    >
    >
    >>can anyone give any tips or recommed a website/book with advice on scanning
    >>black and white negs. I'm using a minolta scan dual III on a range of fp4,
    >>hp5 etc but am invariably getting poor results (eg poor tonal range, image
    >>looks like a photocopy) on negs that I can get a reasonable wet print from.
    >>I've tried scanning in colour and converting, changing contrast, exposure
    >>etc, but am still a long way from getting a reasonable scan in most cases.
    >>
    >>thanks in advance
    >>mark

    >
    >
    > Salutations Mark.
    >
    > The digital era is here, and Sigma is taking the lead. Sigma digital
    > SLR cameras use the Foveon sensor, which is the only image sensor that
    > records colours in 3 layers like film. The Foveon sensor is also the
    > only sensor that can capture a true black and white image like B&W
    > film.

    Hmmm. Not strictly speaking true. The Foevon will as far as I know
    *still* decompose the beam into red, green and blue channels, which have
    to be re-composed/"averaged out" for B&W data. That's not quite the same
    thing as using a B&W sensor - you'll probably looe something on the way,
    although perhaps not as much as with other types of RGB sensors, where
    there is all sorts of interpolation that you have to try to cancel out
    the effect of as well...

    The fact of the matter is, CCDs are originally black&white, or
    grayscale, if you like, so it's in a sense a shame that nobody offers a
    camera with a sensor that without all the trickerly used to produce
    colour. Actually, what I'm dreaming of is a digital camera with
    replacable sensors - so you could have one for colour, one for black and
    white, stick in a lower resolution one to get higher sensitivity,
    upgrade when something new comes along... Would be a bit like the
    vapourware digital film, I guess, only I don't really want something
    that will convert a film camera into digital, but rather more
    flexibility for cameras originally designed as digital.


    > Lose the dinosaur film gear and join this century......buy a
    > Sigma SD10 and some Sigma lenses and you will never need to scan
    > again.

    But this was perhas just as off-topic as the original response, which I
    meant to criticise. I think we should try to answer the question asked,
    or not answer at all... Also, save us from (non-)arguments like the ones
    just above. Personally I'll bye a digital camera as and when truely
    makes life easier and/or is more cost effective, compared to a film one.
    I won't do it because "this is the 21st century" or simply "because it's
    digital"...

    As for the original question, if at all possible, try a different
    scanner and see if the results are better. Also, and maybe someone else
    can tell us more about this, try to find out if there is a film scanner
    that scans in *true* black&white, as opposed to scanning RGB and
    converting to black&white.
    Toralf Lund, Jul 21, 2004
    #2
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  3. Georges Preddivous

    Tom Ellliott Guest

    Or, you can still be a dinosaur like me, make the perfect print and then
    scan that. Yes it is work around, but at least you have the silver based BW
    neg and the print, as an archive. One of the drawbacks I can see is that the
    digital technology changes from every 90 days(shelf life of new stuff) to
    three years. Who now still have 5 1/2 floppies or even a drive to read
    them - I do.
    My BW go back to 1958! May of 1989 is when I did my first digital retouch
    for a client on a 4MB 386 machine. The now common 3.5 disks were JUST
    entering the marketplace.
    Yours,
    Tom
    "Georges Preddivous" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > "mark kinder" <> wrote in message

    news:<cd8e4u$mhk$>...
    >
    > > can anyone give any tips or recommed a website/book with advice on

    scanning
    > > black and white negs. I'm using a minolta scan dual III on a range of

    fp4,
    > > hp5 etc but am invariably getting poor results (eg poor tonal range,

    image
    > > looks like a photocopy) on negs that I can get a reasonable wet print

    from.
    > > I've tried scanning in colour and converting, changing contrast,

    exposure
    > > etc, but am still a long way from getting a reasonable scan in most

    cases.
    > >
    > > thanks in advance
    > > mark

    >
    > Salutations Mark.
    >
    > The digital era is here, and Sigma is taking the lead. Sigma digital
    > SLR cameras use the Foveon sensor, which is the only image sensor that
    > records colours in 3 layers like film. The Foveon sensor is also the
    > only sensor that can capture a true black and white image like B&W
    > film. Lose the dinosaur film gear and join this century......buy a
    > Sigma SD10 and some Sigma lenses and you will never need to scan
    > again.
    Tom Ellliott, Jul 21, 2004
    #3
  4. Georges Preddivous wrote:
    >
    > The digital era is here, and Sigma is taking the lead. Sigma digital
    > SLR cameras use the Foveon sensor, which is the only image sensor that
    > records colours in 3 layers like film. The Foveon sensor is also the
    > only sensor that can capture a true black and white image like B&W
    > film. Lose the dinosaur film gear and join this century......buy a
    > Sigma SD10 and some Sigma lenses and you will never need to scan
    > again.


    This message brought to you by Georges Preddivous, Sales rep for Sigma
    aka Junk.

    --
    Joseph E. Meehan

    26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math
    Joseph Meehan, Jul 21, 2004
    #4
  5. Georges Preddivous

    J. A. Mc. Guest

    On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:40:51 -0400, "Tom Ellliott" <>
    found these unused words floating about:

    >Or, you can still be a dinosaur like me, make the perfect print and then
    >scan that. Yes it is work around, but at least you have the silver based BW
    >neg and the print, as an archive. One of the drawbacks I can see is that the
    >digital technology changes from every 90 days(shelf life of new stuff) to
    >three years. Who now still have 5 1/2 floppies or even a drive to read
    >them - I do.
    >Yours,
    >Tom


    Consider yourself unique - AFAIK no one else ever had them ...! <G>

    That gaffe aside, ever use hard sectored 5 1/4" floppies?
    J. A. Mc., Jul 21, 2004
    #5
  6. "J. A. Mc." <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:40:51 -0400, "Tom Ellliott" <>
    > found these unused words floating about:
    >
    > >Or, you can still be a dinosaur like me, make the perfect print and then
    > >scan that. Yes it is work around, but at least you have the silver based

    BW
    > >neg and the print, as an archive. One of the drawbacks I can see is that

    the
    > >digital technology changes from every 90 days(shelf life of new stuff) to
    > >three years. Who now still have 5 1/2 floppies or even a drive to read
    > >them - I do.
    > >Yours,
    > >Tom

    >
    > Consider yourself unique - AFAIK no one else ever had them ...! <G>
    >
    > That gaffe aside, ever use hard sectored 5 1/4" floppies?


    Still have one ...
    www.ekuk.fsnet.co.uk/floppy.jpg
    This is the original copy of Turbo Basic I bought back in 1989. Although
    I no longer have equipment that can read the original, I transferred it to
    3.5 Diskette before disposing of the 5.25 drive. The old 5.25 original is
    kept as proof of licence ownership.

    Now, I wonder......will it fit in the CD-ROM drive ? :)

    Another question....can anyone remember using 8.5 inch floppies
    Dennis
    Dennis Bradley, Jul 21, 2004
    #6
  7. Georges Preddivous

    Edge Guest

    WILL YOU STOP FEEDING THE FUCKING TROLL .. OR AT LEAST CULL THE
    MULTITUDE OF NEWSGROUPS?
    Edge, Jul 21, 2004
    #7
  8. Georges Preddivous

    Hecate Guest

    On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:43:08 +0100, "Dennis Bradley"
    <dennis@no_spam_please_dbradley.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:


    >Another question....can anyone remember using 8.5 inch floppies
    >Dennis


    Sonny, I can remember using punch cards ;-)

    --

    Hecate

    veni, vidi, reliqui
    Hecate, Jul 22, 2004
    #8
  9. Georges Preddivous

    JJ Guest

    Hecate wrote:
    >
    > On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:43:08 +0100, "Dennis Bradley"
    > <dennis@no_spam_please_dbradley.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
    >
    > >Another question....can anyone remember using 8.5 inch floppies
    > >Dennis

    >
    > Sonny, I can remember using punch cards ;-)


    Little boy, I still have a paper tape of a program
    I wrote :)
    JJ, Jul 22, 2004
    #9
  10. Georges Preddivous

    Geoff Guest

    Gone are the days when I had to program by pushing jumpers into plug boards!
    You know you are old when you find computers you used to work on in the
    museum.

    "JJ" <> wrote in message news:...
    > Hecate wrote:
    > >
    > > On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:43:08 +0100, "Dennis Bradley"
    > > <dennis@no_spam_please_dbradley.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
    > >
    > > >Another question....can anyone remember using 8.5 inch floppies
    > > >Dennis

    > >
    > > Sonny, I can remember using punch cards ;-)

    >
    > Little boy, I still have a paper tape of a program
    > I wrote :)
    Geoff, Jul 22, 2004
    #10
  11. Dennis Bradley wrote:
    > Still have one ...
    > www.ekuk.fsnet.co.uk/floppy.jpg
    > This is the original copy of Turbo Basic I bought back in 1989.
    > Although I no longer have equipment that can read the original, I
    > transferred it to
    > 3.5 Diskette before disposing of the 5.25 drive. The old 5.25 original
    > is kept as proof of licence ownership.
    >
    > Now, I wonder......will it fit in the CD-ROM drive ? :)
    >
    > Another question....can anyone remember using 8.5 inch floppies
    > Dennis


    Yup... used to program CP/M on an NEC PABX minicomputer - it used the 8"
    floppies...

    Cheers,
    Richard
    Richard Stewart, Jul 22, 2004
    #11
  12. Georges Preddivous

    Toralf Lund Guest

    Edge wrote:
    > WILL YOU STOP FEEDING THE FUCKING TROLL .. OR AT LEAST CULL THE
    > MULTITUDE OF NEWSGROUPS?

    Whoops. Sorry. I didn't notice at first that this guy has about 498
    other posts with the same kind of idiotic remarks. I thought he was
    someone you could actually reason with...

    - Toralf
    Toralf Lund, Jul 22, 2004
    #12
  13. Georges Preddivous

    Sander Vesik Guest

    In rec.photo.equipment.35mm Dennis Bradley <dennis@no_spam_please_dbradley.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
    >
    > "J. A. Mc." <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:40:51 -0400, "Tom Ellliott" <>
    > > found these unused words floating about:
    > >
    > > >Or, you can still be a dinosaur like me, make the perfect print and then
    > > >scan that. Yes it is work around, but at least you have the silver based

    > BW
    > > >neg and the print, as an archive. One of the drawbacks I can see is that

    > the
    > > >digital technology changes from every 90 days(shelf life of new stuff) to
    > > >three years. Who now still have 5 1/2 floppies or even a drive to read
    > > >them - I do.
    > > >Yours,
    > > >Tom

    > >
    > > Consider yourself unique - AFAIK no one else ever had them ...! <G>
    > >
    > > That gaffe aside, ever use hard sectored 5 1/4" floppies?

    >
    > Still have one ...
    > www.ekuk.fsnet.co.uk/floppy.jpg
    > This is the original copy of Turbo Basic I bought back in 1989. Although
    > I no longer have equipment that can read the original, I transferred it to
    > 3.5 Diskette before disposing of the 5.25 drive. The old 5.25 original is
    > kept as proof of licence ownership.
    >
    > Now, I wonder......will it fit in the CD-ROM drive ? :)
    >
    > Another question....can anyone remember using 8.5 inch floppies


    seen them on sale... i've even seen drives for such.


    > Dennis
    >


    --
    Sander

    +++ Out of cheese error +++
    Sander Vesik, Jul 22, 2004
    #13
  14. Georges Preddivous

    J. A. Mc. Guest

    On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:43:08 +0100, "Dennis Bradley"
    <dennis@no_spam_please_dbradley.freeserve.co.uk> found these unused words
    floating about:

    >
    >"J. A. Mc." <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:40:51 -0400, "Tom Ellliott" <>
    >> found these unused words floating about:
    >>
    >> >Or, you can still be a dinosaur like me, make the perfect print and then
    >> >scan that. Yes it is work around, but at least you have the silver based

    >BW
    >> >neg and the print, as an archive. One of the drawbacks I can see is that

    >the
    >> >digital technology changes from every 90 days(shelf life of new stuff) to
    >> >three years. Who now still have 5 1/2 floppies or even a drive to read
    >> >them - I do.
    >> >Yours,
    >> >Tom

    >>
    >> Consider yourself unique - AFAIK no one else ever had them ...! <G>
    >>
    >> That gaffe aside, ever use hard sectored 5 1/4" floppies?

    >
    >Still have one ...
    >www.ekuk.fsnet.co.uk/floppy.jpg
    >This is the original copy of Turbo Basic I bought back in 1989. Although
    >I no longer have equipment that can read the original, I transferred it to
    >3.5 Diskette before disposing of the 5.25 drive. The old 5.25 original is
    >kept as proof of licence ownership.
    >
    >Now, I wonder......will it fit in the CD-ROM drive ? :)
    >
    >Another question....can anyone remember using 8.5 inch floppies
    >Dennis
    >

    Hi Dennis ... please join Tom in the "unique category". <G>

    Those 'original' floppies were 8", no fractions. Drives mostly by Shugart.
    Came in single side and double side, singe and double density.

    Still have those, the hard sectored 5 1/4" and others ... FWIW.

    Now (and much later) remember the Bernoulli drives? 5MB on a 5" hardcased
    'pack'.
    J. A. Mc., Jul 22, 2004
    #14
  15. Geoff wrote:
    > Gone are the days when I had to program by pushing jumpers into plug
    > boards! You know you are old when you find computers you used to work
    > on in the museum.


    Museum of Science and Tech in Ottawa has three computers that I've owned:
    Sinclair ZX81
    Macintosh 512K
    Toshiba T1000 laptop

    (*sigh*)

    --
    Dominic Richens |
    "If you're not *outraged*, you're not paying attention!"
    Dominic Richens, Jul 22, 2004
    #15
  16. Georges Preddivous

    RSD99 Guest

    :))) ...

    Youngster

    :))) ...





    HP 2114, 2115, 2116
    (The 2116 has a "Hard Disk" ... IIRC 10 MB and literally the size of a washer or dryer)
    DEC PDP 8e
    Apple ][ (*not* the later "][ Plus")


    What hath we wrought ...
    RSD99, Jul 22, 2004
    #16
  17. "RSD99" <> wrote in message
    news:h6WLc.30697$...
    > :))) ...
    >
    > Youngster
    >
    > :))) ...
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > HP 2114, 2115, 2116
    > (The 2116 has a "Hard Disk" ... IIRC 10 MB and literally the size of a

    washer or dryer)
    > DEC PDP 8e
    > Apple ][ (*not* the later "][ Plus")
    >
    >
    > What hath we wrought ...
    >
    >

    I think those were all classed as mini-computers or micro computers, but
    correct me if I am wrong.
    I am talking *real* computers. Mainframes like the Univac 1108...
    www.ekuk.fsnet.co.uk/univac.jpg shows a small part of a later variant the
    Univac 1100/21 if I remember correctly.
    The panel behind the seated lady is the display panel and is only a small
    part of the entire system.
    Although the 1100/21 had disk drives like spin dryers, the older 1108 had
    something called Fastrand II. A large cylinder lying on its side with a
    magnetic coating on the outside surface. About 5 feet long and 2 feet
    diameter it rotated at quite a speed, but I can't remember the details.
    (have just found a reference at
    http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/univac/fastrand.html )
    I suspect the lights in the neighbourhood dimmed whenever we started this
    beast up.

    The lady in the picture played a major part in the procurement of the Univac
    systems, and was latterly the operations manager. I took the picture
    minutes after we switched the machine off for the last time. In a much
    smaller room next door purred a cluster of Dec Vax "supermini" computers.

    I am enjoying this thread, but note that I keep linking to photographs,
    after all it is supposed to be a photo group :)

    Dennis
    Dennis Bradley, Jul 22, 2004
    #17
  18. Georges Preddivous

    Hecate Guest

    On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 04:24:19 GMT, JJ <> wrote:

    >Hecate wrote:
    >>
    >> On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:43:08 +0100, "Dennis Bradley"
    >> <dennis@no_spam_please_dbradley.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
    >>
    >> >Another question....can anyone remember using 8.5 inch floppies
    >> >Dennis

    >>
    >> Sonny, I can remember using punch cards ;-)

    >
    >Little boy, I still have a paper tape of a program
    >I wrote :)


    LOL! That's girl to you, sonny ;-)

    --

    Hecate

    veni, vidi, reliqui
    Hecate, Jul 23, 2004
    #18
  19. Georges Preddivous

    Hecate Guest

    On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 23:16:53 +0100, "Dennis Bradley"
    <dennis@no_spam_please_dbradley.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:


    >The lady in the picture played a major part in the procurement of the Univac
    >systems, and was latterly the operations manager. I took the picture
    >minutes after we switched the machine off for the last time. In a much
    >smaller room next door purred a cluster of Dec Vax "supermini" computers.
    >
    >I am enjoying this thread, but note that I keep linking to photographs,
    >after all it is supposed to be a photo group :)
    >

    Nah, it's a scanning group, but what the hell :)

    The oldest I worked on was some IBM at University in the early
    eighties. Not long you say, except the University wasn't exactly
    well-funded and it was a cast off from a company that had had it about
    20-25 years ;-)

    --

    Hecate

    veni, vidi, reliqui
    Hecate, Jul 23, 2004
    #19
  20. On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 01:59:38 +0100, Hecate <> wrote:

    >On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 04:24:19 GMT, JJ <> wrote:
    >
    >>Hecate wrote:
    >>>
    >>> On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:43:08 +0100, "Dennis Bradley"
    >>> <dennis@no_spam_please_dbradley.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
    >>>
    >>> >Another question....can anyone remember using 8.5 inch floppies
    >>> >Dennis


    No, they wouldn't fit the 8-inch drives...........

    I remember 14-inch Nashua six-packs, however!

    >>> Sonny, I can remember using punch cards ;-)


    Wasn't it fun when you dropped the stack? :)

    >>Little boy, I still have a paper tape of a program
    >>I wrote :)


    We advanced guys used mylar!

    >LOL! That's girl to you, sonny ;-)


    Clearly not a classical scholar! :)

    Still, as I always say, three heads are better than one to shine the
    torches of education into the darkness of ignorance..........
    --

    Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering
    Stewart Pinkerton, Jul 23, 2004
    #20
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