Re: Privacy/Security: How to change my IP address daily or weekly on DSL

Discussion in 'Computer Security' started by Aluxe, Oct 18, 2006.

  1. Aluxe

    Aluxe Guest

    On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 12:33:59 -0800, Dana wrote:
    >> Changing the MAC address is totally pointless.

    >
    > While I see where you are coming from, I would not say it is pointless.
    > There are valid and invalid reasons for wanting to change a MAC address.


    Hi Dana,
    I'll give you a real life, albeit embarrassing, reason for changing a MAC
    address.

    When I was in high school, a student made a lot of fun of my body. Said I
    was a "twiggy" (those old enough out there will know what that means).

    Well, recently I was back home, and I saw her, and she looked positively
    huge. She must have doubled in weight. I wanted to get her back. So, I
    logged into NetZero from a blocked phone line, and I sent her a message
    calling her all sorts of names to get her back. I even said I was a
    "friend" of hers way back when but I thought she looked like a pig now.

    Point is, I figured the only way they could track that email I sent her was
    through my MAC address since the IP address would have been registered to
    NetZero and the phone number I called from would have been blocked.

    Isn't that a case where the MAC address change afforded me some privacy?
    Or did I give myself away even then?
    Aluxe, Oct 18, 2006
    #1
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  2. Aluxe

    Dana Guest

    "Aluxe" <> wrote in message
    news:6xpsis0n7z26$.1bpm30hw360sr$...
    > On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 12:33:59 -0800, Dana wrote:
    > >> Changing the MAC address is totally pointless.

    > >
    > > While I see where you are coming from, I would not say it is pointless.
    > > There are valid and invalid reasons for wanting to change a MAC address.

    >
    > Hi Dana,
    > I'll give you a real life, albeit embarrassing, reason for changing a MAC
    > address.
    >
    > When I was in high school, a student made a lot of fun of my body. Said I
    > was a "twiggy" (those old enough out there will know what that means).
    >
    > Well, recently I was back home, and I saw her, and she looked positively
    > huge. She must have doubled in weight. I wanted to get her back. So, I
    > logged into NetZero from a blocked phone line, and I sent her a message
    > calling her all sorts of names to get her back. I even said I was a
    > "friend" of hers way back when but I thought she looked like a pig now.
    >
    > Point is, I figured the only way they could track that email I sent her

    was
    > through my MAC address since the IP address would have been registered to
    > NetZero and the phone number I called from would have been blocked.
    >
    > Isn't that a case where the MAC address change afforded me some privacy?
    > Or did I give myself away even then?


    The person would have never seen your MAC address, unless they got a court
    order for your ISP to show it to them.
    The only mac address a station will see, is the next station upstream.
    Dana, Oct 18, 2006
    #2
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  3. Aluxe

    Aluxe Guest

    On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 20:51:59 -0800, Dana wrote:
    >> Isn't that a case where the MAC address change afforded me some privacy?
    >> Or did I give myself away even then?

    >
    > The person would have never seen your MAC address, unless they got a court
    > order for your ISP to show it to them.
    > The only mac address a station will see, is the next station upstream.


    Hi Dana,
    Sorry to keep hammering on this but the question I asked was "didn't
    changing the MAC address add a modicum of privacy to my email"?

    For example, if she had a packet sniffer or if she got a court order to
    track the email, wouldn't the MAC address have been a key component of the
    traceback?

    And, if it was, wouldn't the bogus MAC address I provided have added an
    extra level of privacy to that traceback?

    Yes or no is what I'd expect the answer to be.
    Aluxe, Oct 18, 2006
    #3
  4. Aluxe

    Dana Guest

    "Aluxe" <> wrote in message
    news:6reykj1cl80a$...
    > On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 20:51:59 -0800, Dana wrote:
    > >> Isn't that a case where the MAC address change afforded me some

    privacy?
    > >> Or did I give myself away even then?

    > >
    > > The person would have never seen your MAC address, unless they got a

    court
    > > order for your ISP to show it to them.
    > > The only mac address a station will see, is the next station upstream.

    >
    > Hi Dana,
    > Sorry to keep hammering on this but the question I asked was "didn't
    > changing the MAC address add a modicum of privacy to my email"?


    No.

    >
    > For example, if she had a packet sniffer or if she got a court order to
    > track the email, wouldn't the MAC address have been a key component of the
    > traceback?


    Your ISP will always have whatever MAC address you use, hence if they were
    given a court order, they would have to give it up.


    >
    > And, if it was, wouldn't the bogus MAC address I provided have added an
    > extra level of privacy to that traceback?


    No, because your isp would know it is associated with your account, hence
    they would have to give that info out if there was a court order.
    Dana, Oct 18, 2006
    #4
  5. Aluxe

    Aluxe Guest

    On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 21:34:50 -0800, Dana wrote:
    >> And, if it was, wouldn't the bogus MAC address I provided have added an
    >> extra level of privacy to that traceback?

    >
    > No, because your isp would know it is associated with your account, hence
    > they would have to give that info out if there was a court order.


    Hi Dana,
    I do appreciate your taking the time to explain this to me.
    Let me see if I have it correct this time:

    CASE 1 (home ISP):
    In the case of a home ISP, where I have to log in with a user name and a
    password from a dedicated account, changing the MAC address provides
    absolutely no additional privacy since the ISP knows the MAC address used,
    even if it is 00-00-00-00-00-00.

    CASE 2 (NetZero dialup):
    Even in the case of NetZero dialup, there may not be an additional level of
    privacy gained by changing the MAC address because you have to first
    establish an account with NetZero which requires a previous account which
    will have your original MAC address associated with it - which can always
    be traced back to you by your ISP.

    CASE 3 (hotel free hotspot):
    However, in the case of a hotel freebie hotspot, changing the MAC address
    to 00-00-00-00-00-00 DOES PROVIDE AN EXTRA LEVEL OF PRIVACY because in this
    case, the MAC address is the only factor they have in tracing the
    connection back to you.

    Did I summarize the implications of changing the MAC address correctly?
    Aluxe, Oct 18, 2006
    #5
  6. Aluxe

    John Navas Guest

    On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 05:15:38 GMT, Aluxe <> wrote
    in <6reykj1cl80a$>:

    >On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 20:51:59 -0800, Dana wrote:
    >>> Isn't that a case where the MAC address change afforded me some privacy?
    >>> Or did I give myself away even then?

    >>
    >> The person would have never seen your MAC address, unless they got a court
    >> order for your ISP to show it to them.
    >> The only mac address a station will see, is the next station upstream.

    >
    >Hi Dana,
    >Sorry to keep hammering on this but the question I asked was "didn't
    >changing the MAC address add a modicum of privacy to my email"?


    Nope. Nada. Zilch.

    >For example, if she had a packet sniffer or if she got a court order to
    >track the email, wouldn't the MAC address have been a key component of the
    >traceback?
    >
    >And, if it was, wouldn't the bogus MAC address I provided have added an
    >extra level of privacy to that traceback?
    >
    >Yes or no is what I'd expect the answer to be.


    Nope. Nada. Zilch.

    --
    Best regards, FAQ for Wireless Internet: <http://Wireless.wikia.com>
    John Navas FAQ for Wi-Fi: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi>
    Wi-Fi How To: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_HowTo>
    Fixes to Wi-Fi Problems: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_Fixes>
    John Navas, Oct 18, 2006
    #6
  7. Aluxe

    Dana Guest

    "Aluxe" <> wrote in message
    news:el08vggrgg3b$.34blm2k3v78j$...
    > On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 21:34:50 -0800, Dana wrote:
    > >> And, if it was, wouldn't the bogus MAC address I provided have added an
    > >> extra level of privacy to that traceback?

    > >
    > > No, because your isp would know it is associated with your account,

    hence
    > > they would have to give that info out if there was a court order.

    >
    > Hi Dana,
    > I do appreciate your taking the time to explain this to me.
    > Let me see if I have it correct this time:
    >
    > CASE 1 (home ISP):
    > In the case of a home ISP, where I have to log in with a user name and a
    > password from a dedicated account, changing the MAC address provides
    > absolutely no additional privacy since the ISP knows the MAC address used,
    > even if it is 00-00-00-00-00-00.


    Yes, that is how the protocol works. The next upstream device (your ISP has
    to know what mac address to send the replies to.
    >
    > CASE 2 (NetZero dialup):
    > Even in the case of NetZero dialup, there may not be an additional level

    of
    > privacy gained by changing the MAC address because you have to first
    > establish an account with NetZero which requires a previous account which
    > will have your original MAC address associated with it - which can always
    > be traced back to you by your ISP.


    They may have your original MAC, but they will now use whatever MAC address
    you are using now, as that identifies the machine you are using.
    So if you log on using your friends lap top, netzero will associate you to
    that lap top once you sign in.
    >
    > CASE 3 (hotel free hotspot):
    > However, in the case of a hotel freebie hotspot, changing the MAC address
    > to 00-00-00-00-00-00 DOES PROVIDE AN EXTRA LEVEL OF PRIVACY because in

    this
    > case, the MAC address is the only factor they have in tracing the
    > connection back to you.


    I am thinking this is a yes. When you change your MAC, that is a software
    mac, yet your NIC has a burned in address. I am not sure if your first
    connection to the hotspot will use the burned in address, or the software
    changed MAC.
    I will have to look into this one. For now I will say yes it works like you
    are saying.
    Dana, Oct 18, 2006
    #7
  8. Aluxe

    Warren Oates Guest

    In article <>,
    "Dana" <> wrote:

    > Your ISP will always have whatever MAC address you use, hence if they were
    > given a court order, they would have to give it up.


    I'm not even sure how a MAC address is relevant. My ISP only sees the
    MAC address of my router. So what? And my router will let me change
    that, if I want.

    This is a nutbar.
    --
    W. Oates
    Teal'c: He is concealing something.
    O'Neil: Like what?
    Teal'c: I am unsure, he is concealing it.
    Warren Oates, Oct 18, 2006
    #8
  9. Aluxe

    Aluxe Guest

    On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 07:15:50 -0400, Warren Oates wrote:
    > I'm not even sure how a [PC] MAC address is relevant.
    > My ISP only sees the MAC address of my router.


    Hmmm... I am learning of the subtlties of privacy.

    CASE 1 (ISP from a home network):
    Is it true that the ISP never sees the spoofed PC MAC address; the ISP only
    sees the ROUTER MAC address?

    CASE 2 (modem dialup to NetZero from a blocked phone):
    NetZero only sees your spoofed MAC address assuming you obtained the
    NetZero software separately (e.g., from a library computer). However, the
    initial establishment of an account may provide identifying information
    since it requires an email address and a valid ISP just to download the
    NetZero software. Even if you saved the NetZero software on a flash card,
    you still would have needed to establish an initial connection to NetZero
    to obtain the software even if that were years ago - which is the weak
    link (as far as we can tell).

    CASE 3 (free hotspot):
    It seems that changing the MAC address prior to connection is additive to
    privacy. I think there is a "change bit" which indicates the MAC address
    were changed but I am unsure of that.
    Aluxe, Oct 18, 2006
    #9
  10. Aluxe

    Dana Guest

    "Warren Oates" <> wrote in message
    news:45360c9f$0$5543$...
    > In article <>,
    > "Dana" <> wrote:
    >
    > > Your ISP will always have whatever MAC address you use, hence if they

    were
    > > given a court order, they would have to give it up.

    >
    > I'm not even sure how a MAC address is relevant. My ISP only sees the
    > MAC address of my router. So what? And my router will let me change
    > that, if I want.
    >
    > This is a nutbar.


    More akin to how they busted foley.
    Just by using your internet account. For a lot of us, that is our always on
    connection to the internet.
    You logged on to the internet from somewhere.
    > --
    > W. Oates
    > Teal'c: He is concealing something.
    > O'Neil: Like what?
    > Teal'c: I am unsure, he is concealing it.
    Dana, Oct 18, 2006
    #10
  11. Aluxe

    id1 Guest

    Re: Privacy/Security: How to change my IP address daily or weekly on DSL- .onion-router

    may want to have a look at what they say ?

    http://www.onion-router.net/
    id1, Oct 19, 2006
    #11
  12. Aluxe

    Aluxe Guest

    Re: Privacy/Security: How to change my IP address daily or weekly on DSL- .onion-router

    On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 21:32:58 GMT, id1 wrote:
    > may want to have a look at what they say ?
    > http://www.onion-router.net/


    Hi idl,
    Yes. Very interesting http://tor.freehaven.net

    I just realized from reading that web page that my IP address is also saved
    by every web site I visit so (if they wanted to), folks would build a
    database of my actions even though I delete my cookies automatically using
    appropriate browser settings.

    So, if web sites can track my IP address (and I believe they can), this is
    yet another reason that changing the IP address is additive to privacy.

    Or, did I read that TOR web site wrong?
    Aluxe, Oct 19, 2006
    #12
  13. Aluxe

    Dana Guest

    Re: Privacy/Security: How to change my IP address daily or weekly on DSL- .onion-router

    "Aluxe" <> wrote in message
    news:1xfvkk11z7kow$...
    > On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 21:32:58 GMT, id1 wrote:
    > > may want to have a look at what they say ?
    > > http://www.onion-router.net/

    >
    > Hi idl,
    > Yes. Very interesting http://tor.freehaven.net
    >
    > I just realized from reading that web page that my IP address is also

    saved
    > by every web site I visit so (if they wanted to), folks would build a
    > database of my actions even though I delete my cookies automatically using
    > appropriate browser settings.


    Which is why I mentioned the proxy server
    >
    > So, if web sites can track my IP address (and I believe they can), this is
    > yet another reason that changing the IP address is additive to privacy.


    And again, since you are on a ISP type system, that IP address is registered
    to your ISP not you.
    For you to remain anon you would need to use a proxy server, or something
    along the lines of tor or onion routing.
    And they found out that there is an issue with onion routing, in when you
    use an application like windows media player, once you establish a
    connection to view something over the net using the media player, it
    bypasses the onion routing and makes a direct connection.
    >
    > Or, did I read that TOR web site wrong?
    Dana, Oct 19, 2006
    #13
  14. Aluxe

    Aluxe Guest

    Re: Privacy/Security: How to change my IP address daily or weekly on DSL- .onion-router

    On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 14:03:29 -0800, Dana wrote:
    >> So, if web sites can track my IP address (and I believe they can), this is
    >> yet another reason that changing the IP address is additive to privacy.

    >
    > And again, since you are on a ISP type system, that IP address is registered
    > to your ISP not you.


    Hi Dana,
    Yes, in this case, it's a good point to reiterate that the ISP is the
    registered "owner" of the IP address temporarily "assigned" to me. The
    longer that temporary period is, the more the web sites can associate the
    IP address specifically to me (and vice versa). But, even if I held the IP
    address for two years, I agree, it still would be hard for web sites to
    ascertain much useful information about me from that analysis.

    It is more important that my posts to one newsgroup not be associated with
    my posts to another newsgroup (or even within a single newsgroup on
    occasion).

    Thanks for the reminder. In this circumstance, it was warranted in order to
    prevent me from going off on a tangent in the wrong direction, privacy
    wise.

    > And they found out that there is an issue with onion routing, in when you
    > use an application like windows media player, once you establish a
    > connection to view something over the net using the media player, it
    > bypasses the onion routing and makes a direct connection.


    Ah, interesting. I had read the posted tor web site page you guys referred
    to in this thread but I didn't understand it at all. Now I see that some
    programs, like Adobe Acrobat (not the free reader but the thing that writes
    PDFs creating a single PDF from an entire web site) & Real Player, bypass
    the tor onions once they establish a connection to the server.

    Oh my. The amount one has to know in order to have privacy on the Internet
    is astounding. I guess "privacy on the Internet" is an oxymoron as someone
    posited in this thread!
    Aluxe, Oct 19, 2006
    #14
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