Re: Photomatix & HDR

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Vance, Jun 30, 2009.

  1. Vance

    Vance Guest

    As others have commented, the image is a little too much regarding
    contrast and saturation for a 'natural' look. For some images that
    can be very okay, but it's not really that good for landscapes and
    other images where people have a certain expectation of the colors and
    tonalities based on their own experience. However, if you like the
    effect and it's what you are going for, go for it.

    Getting a natural look out of HDR is not easy, or simple. Neither PS,
    nor Photomatrix, will give you much more than a base that you then
    have to work up controlling contrast and saturation in something like
    PS. Comments like 'Photomatrix gives me ...' and 'Photoshop
    produces ...' point out part of the problem with many HDR images,
    IMHO, which is letting the software do the work and accepting what it
    does as what can be done.

    I am a long way from being a HDR expert, but I have gotten to the
    point where I can take what PS or Photomatrix can give me as a
    starting point and come up with something that doesn't scream HDR.
    These are a few of my more recent images using HDR as I learn more.

    http://picasaweb.google.com/Vance.L...CLC8tZO1lp3G3wE#slideshow/5352984309407040322

    The dynamic range of the images all equal, or exceed, 11 stops and had
    to be aggressively post processed using a lot of local adjustments
    that you have to experiment with to discover what adjusments will
    bring the image into line. For example, all of the images used areas
    copied to another layer, which was equalized in some fashion, and then
    blended back. Sometimes those layers had attached adjustment curves,
    or were inverted after desaturation and then blended back using one of
    the blend modes. The trouble is that I haven't found a real set of
    'rules' about what to do. Things that have worked well on one image
    that you would think would work well on another, don't always perform
    that way.

    HDR is a lot of fun, can be very useful and can certainly produce some
    images with a 'WOW!' factor.

    Vance

    On Jun 27, 8:31 pm, Savageduck <savageduck@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
    > I have been dabbling with HDR both with CS4 (OK , but not great) &
    > Photomatix Pro, which seems to give a fair degree of flexibility and
    > reasonable results.
    >
    > Here is an image I have been working with from a recent Yosemite road
    > trip. 3 exposures -1: 0: +1.http://homepage.mac.com/lco/filechute/Yosemite-19-20-21-HDRtm-Dc1w.jpg
    >
    > Any suggestions?
    >
    > --
    > Regards,
    >
    > Savageduck
     
    Vance, Jun 30, 2009
    #1
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  2. Vance

    Ken Guest

    Well I like your shots.

    Ken


    "Vance" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    As others have commented, the image is a little too much regarding
    contrast and saturation for a 'natural' look. For some images that
    can be very okay, but it's not really that good for landscapes and
    other images where people have a certain expectation of the colors and
    tonalities based on their own experience. However, if you like the
    effect and it's what you are going for, go for it.

    Getting a natural look out of HDR is not easy, or simple. Neither PS,
    nor Photomatrix, will give you much more than a base that you then
    have to work up controlling contrast and saturation in something like
    PS. Comments like 'Photomatrix gives me ...' and 'Photoshop
    produces ...' point out part of the problem with many HDR images,
    IMHO, which is letting the software do the work and accepting what it
    does as what can be done.

    I am a long way from being a HDR expert, but I have gotten to the
    point where I can take what PS or Photomatrix can give me as a
    starting point and come up with something that doesn't scream HDR.
    These are a few of my more recent images using HDR as I learn more.

    http://picasaweb.google.com/Vance.L...CLC8tZO1lp3G3wE#slideshow/5352984309407040322

    The dynamic range of the images all equal, or exceed, 11 stops and had
    to be aggressively post processed using a lot of local adjustments
    that you have to experiment with to discover what adjusments will
    bring the image into line. For example, all of the images used areas
    copied to another layer, which was equalized in some fashion, and then
    blended back. Sometimes those layers had attached adjustment curves,
    or were inverted after desaturation and then blended back using one of
    the blend modes. The trouble is that I haven't found a real set of
    'rules' about what to do. Things that have worked well on one image
    that you would think would work well on another, don't always perform
    that way.

    HDR is a lot of fun, can be very useful and can certainly produce some
    images with a 'WOW!' factor.

    Vance

    On Jun 27, 8:31 pm, Savageduck <savageduck@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
    > I have been dabbling with HDR both with CS4 (OK , but not great) &
    > Photomatix Pro, which seems to give a fair degree of flexibility and
    > reasonable results.
    >
    > Here is an image I have been working with from a recent Yosemite road
    > trip. 3 exposures -1: 0:
    > +1.http://homepage.mac.com/lco/filechute/Yosemite-19-20-21-HDRtm-Dc1w.jpg
    >
    > Any suggestions?
    >
    > --
    > Regards,
    >
    > Savageduck
     
    Ken, Jun 30, 2009
    #2
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  3. Vance

    Eric Stevens Guest

    On Mon, 29 Jun 2009 22:52:40 -0700 (PDT), Vance <>
    wrote:

    >As others have commented, the image is a little too much regarding
    >contrast and saturation for a 'natural' look. For some images that
    >can be very okay, but it's not really that good for landscapes and
    >other images where people have a certain expectation of the colors and
    >tonalities based on their own experience. However, if you like the
    >effect and it's what you are going for, go for it.
    >
    >Getting a natural look out of HDR is not easy, or simple. Neither PS,
    >nor Photomatrix, will give you much more than a base that you then
    >have to work up controlling contrast and saturation in something like
    >PS. Comments like 'Photomatrix gives me ...' and 'Photoshop
    >produces ...' point out part of the problem with many HDR images,
    >IMHO, which is letting the software do the work and accepting what it
    >does as what can be done.
    >
    >I am a long way from being a HDR expert, but I have gotten to the
    >point where I can take what PS or Photomatrix can give me as a
    >starting point and come up with something that doesn't scream HDR.
    >These are a few of my more recent images using HDR as I learn more.
    >
    >http://picasaweb.google.com/Vance.L...CLC8tZO1lp3G3wE#slideshow/5352984309407040322
    >
    >The dynamic range of the images all equal, or exceed, 11 stops and had
    >to be aggressively post processed using a lot of local adjustments
    >that you have to experiment with to discover what adjusments will
    >bring the image into line. For example, all of the images used areas
    >copied to another layer, which was equalized in some fashion, and then
    >blended back. Sometimes those layers had attached adjustment curves,
    >or were inverted after desaturation and then blended back using one of
    >the blend modes. The trouble is that I haven't found a real set of
    >'rules' about what to do. Things that have worked well on one image
    >that you would think would work well on another, don't always perform
    >that way.
    >
    >HDR is a lot of fun, can be very useful and can certainly produce some
    >images with a 'WOW!' factor.


    I'm jealous!

    >
    >Vance
    >
    >On Jun 27, 8:31 pm, Savageduck <savageduck@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
    >> I have been dabbling with HDR both with CS4 (OK , but not great) &
    >> Photomatix Pro, which seems to give a fair degree of flexibility and
    >> reasonable results.
    >>
    >> Here is an image I have been working with from a recent Yosemite road
    >> trip. 3 exposures -1: 0: +1.http://homepage.mac.com/lco/filechute/Yosemite-19-20-21-HDRtm-Dc1w.jpg
    >>
    >> Any suggestions?
    >>
    >> --
    >> Regards,
    >>
    >> Savageduck




    Eric Stevens
     
    Eric Stevens, Jun 30, 2009
    #3
  4. Vance

    Wayne R. Guest

    On Mon, 29 Jun 2009 22:52:40 -0700 (PDT), Vance <>
    wrote (with clarity & insight):

    >Getting a natural look out of HDR is not easy, or simple. Neither PS,
    >nor Photomatrix, will give you much more than a base that you then
    >have to work up controlling contrast and saturation in something like
    >PS. Comments like 'Photomatrix gives me ...' and 'Photoshop
    >produces ...' point out part of the problem with many HDR images,
    >IMHO, which is letting the software do the work and accepting what it
    >does as what can be done.


    These, to me, exemplify expertise in HDR work - something ideal, right
    from your mind's eye. It's only with thought that it's clear HDR is
    the central tool.

    Just like movies where CGI is so sophisticated that you're not even
    aware it's there.

    In-your-face has its place too, but this subtlety is more appealing to
    me.
     
    Wayne R., Jun 30, 2009
    #4
  5. "Wayne R." <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Mon, 29 Jun 2009 22:52:40 -0700 (PDT), Vance <>
    > wrote (with clarity & insight):
    >
    >>Getting a natural look out of HDR is not easy, or simple. Neither PS,
    >>nor Photomatrix, will give you much more than a base that you then
    >>have to work up controlling contrast and saturation in something like
    >>PS. Comments like 'Photomatrix gives me ...' and 'Photoshop
    >>produces ...' point out part of the problem with many HDR images,
    >>IMHO, which is letting the software do the work and accepting what it
    >>does as what can be done.

    >
    > These, to me, exemplify expertise in HDR work - something ideal, right
    > from your mind's eye. It's only with thought that it's clear HDR is
    > the central tool.
    >
    > Just like movies where CGI is so sophisticated that you're not even
    > aware it's there.
    >
    > In-your-face has its place too, but this subtlety is more appealing to
    > me.


    I've been a long-time fan of models over CGI but, I must admit, the high
    quality and more subtle work that's come out over the past few years is
    impressive.

    --
    Charles E Hardwidge
     
    Charles E Hardwidge, Jun 30, 2009
    #5
  6. Vance

    Eric Stevens Guest

    On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 18:20:05 GMT, "Charles E Hardwidge"
    <> wrote:

    >"Wayne R." <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> On Mon, 29 Jun 2009 22:52:40 -0700 (PDT), Vance <>
    >> wrote (with clarity & insight):
    >>
    >>>Getting a natural look out of HDR is not easy, or simple. Neither PS,
    >>>nor Photomatrix, will give you much more than a base that you then
    >>>have to work up controlling contrast and saturation in something like
    >>>PS. Comments like 'Photomatrix gives me ...' and 'Photoshop
    >>>produces ...' point out part of the problem with many HDR images,
    >>>IMHO, which is letting the software do the work and accepting what it
    >>>does as what can be done.

    >>
    >> These, to me, exemplify expertise in HDR work - something ideal, right
    >> from your mind's eye. It's only with thought that it's clear HDR is
    >> the central tool.
    >>
    >> Just like movies where CGI is so sophisticated that you're not even
    >> aware it's there.
    >>
    >> In-your-face has its place too, but this subtlety is more appealing to
    >> me.

    >
    >I've been a long-time fan of models over CGI but, I must admit, the high
    >quality and more subtle work that's come out over the past few years is
    >impressive.


    The best example I can think of was Gollum, in the Lord of the Rings.



    Eric Stevens
     
    Eric Stevens, Jun 30, 2009
    #6
  7. "Eric Stevens" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 18:20:05 GMT, "Charles E Hardwidge"
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >>"Wayne R." <> wrote in message
    >>news:...
    >>> On Mon, 29 Jun 2009 22:52:40 -0700 (PDT), Vance <>
    >>> wrote (with clarity & insight):
    >>>
    >>>>Getting a natural look out of HDR is not easy, or simple. Neither PS,
    >>>>nor Photomatrix, will give you much more than a base that you then
    >>>>have to work up controlling contrast and saturation in something like
    >>>>PS. Comments like 'Photomatrix gives me ...' and 'Photoshop
    >>>>produces ...' point out part of the problem with many HDR images,
    >>>>IMHO, which is letting the software do the work and accepting what it
    >>>>does as what can be done.
    >>>
    >>> These, to me, exemplify expertise in HDR work - something ideal, right
    >>> from your mind's eye. It's only with thought that it's clear HDR is
    >>> the central tool.
    >>>
    >>> Just like movies where CGI is so sophisticated that you're not even
    >>> aware it's there.
    >>>
    >>> In-your-face has its place too, but this subtlety is more appealing to
    >>> me.

    >>
    >>I've been a long-time fan of models over CGI but, I must admit, the high
    >>quality and more subtle work that's come out over the past few years is
    >>impressive.

    >
    > The best example I can think of was Gollum, in the Lord of the Rings.


    That was certainly an advance in character rendering and animation but I was
    thinking more of something like, say, Gladiator or 2001: A Space Odyssey
    versus Star Wars: The Phantom Menace.

    Personally, I prefer the 1978 animated version of LotR. While this is
    getting massively orthogonal to the topic, the Japanese pioneered use of
    camera style effects in animation such as depth of field and perspective.

    http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0077869/

    --
    Charles E Hardwidge
     
    Charles E Hardwidge, Jul 1, 2009
    #7
  8. Vance

    Peter Guest

    "Vance" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    As others have commented, the image is a little too much regarding
    contrast and saturation for a 'natural' look. For some images that
    can be very okay, but it's not really that good for landscapes and
    other images where people have a certain expectation of the colors and
    tonalities based on their own experience. However, if you like the
    effect and it's what you are going for, go for it.

    Getting a natural look out of HDR is not easy, or simple. Neither PS,
    nor Photomatrix, will give you much more than a base that you then
    have to work up controlling contrast and saturation in something like
    PS. Comments like 'Photomatrix gives me ...' and 'Photoshop
    produces ...' point out part of the problem with many HDR images,
    IMHO, which is letting the software do the work and accepting what it
    does as what can be done.

    I am a long way from being a HDR expert, but I have gotten to the
    point where I can take what PS or Photomatrix can give me as a
    starting point and come up with something that doesn't scream HDR.
    These are a few of my more recent images using HDR as I learn more.

    http://picasaweb.google.com/Vance.L...CLC8tZO1lp3G3wE#slideshow/5352984309407040322

    The dynamic range of the images all equal, or exceed, 11 stops and had
    to be aggressively post processed using a lot of local adjustments
    that you have to experiment with to discover what adjusments will
    bring the image into line. For example, all of the images used areas
    copied to another layer, which was equalized in some fashion, and then
    blended back. Sometimes those layers had attached adjustment curves,
    or were inverted after desaturation and then blended back using one of
    the blend modes. The trouble is that I haven't found a real set of
    'rules' about what to do. Things that have worked well on one image
    that you would think would work well on another, don't always perform
    that way.

    HDR is a lot of fun, can be very useful and can certainly produce some
    images with a 'WOW!' factor.



    Just a question. I notice in photo three on of the buildings has a white
    outline around it. I have had similar issues, though usually the outlines
    are black.. There must be a way to avoid this outlining?

    --
    Peter
     
    Peter, Jul 1, 2009
    #8
  9. Vance

    Vance Guest

    On Jun 30, 4:31 pm, "Peter" <> wrote:
    > "Vance" <> wrote in message
    >

    [Snipped]

    > HDR is a lot of fun, can be very useful and can certainly produce some
    > images with a 'WOW!' factor.
    >
    > Just a question. I notice in photo three on of the buildings has a white
    > outline around it. I have had similar issues, though usually the outlines
    > are black.. There must be a way to avoid this outlining?
    >
    > --
    > Peter


    If you're refering to the the tall buildings to the right of the
    image, it's probably a combination of poor masking on my part and the
    fact that the buildings are outlined in lights. Anything else is
    probably just poor masking. I do a lot of masking because I work
    various areas separately using not only the selected area, but often a
    luminosity mask within the area that controls any adjustments I am
    making based on the tones in the image area I am working.

    I don't know how you would totally avoid the outlining, or haloing,
    because of what HDR does in compressing the tonal range. It's an
    artifact of the processing. Where it's noticeable, I usually paint it
    in and, depending on the area (broad, smooth tones are the easiest),
    blend with a little blurring. I have been experimenting with doing a
    selection on edges a little wider than normal and working with
    correcting those areas, then blending back in. I'm still working on
    that and can't say it is always successful. It's iffy.

    I find working with no tone curve applied and a somewhat desaturated
    image helps a lot. I then bring the final image up to snuff re
    contrast and saturation at the end. Another thing I am experimenting
    with is not exposing based on some fixed bracketing, but exposing each
    frame so that it contibutes to the final look I want. All of this is
    still experimental and I can't say it's worth doing, yet.

    Vance
     
    Vance, Jul 1, 2009
    #9
  10. Vance

    Vance Guest

    On Jun 30, 2:08 am, Eric Stevens <> wrote:
    > On Mon, 29 Jun 2009 22:52:40 -0700 (PDT), Vance <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > >As others have commented, the image is a little too much regarding
    > >contrast and saturation for a 'natural' look.  For some images that
    > >can be very okay, but it's not really that good for landscapes and
    > >other images where people have a certain expectation of the colors and
    > >tonalities based on their own experience.  However, if you like the
    > >effect and it's what you are going for, go for it.

    >
    > >Getting a natural look out of HDR is not easy, or simple.  Neither PS,
    > >nor Photomatrix, will give you much more than a base that you then
    > >have to work up controlling contrast and saturation in something like
    > >PS.  Comments like 'Photomatrix gives me ...' and 'Photoshop
    > >produces ...' point out part of the problem with many HDR images,
    > >IMHO, which is letting the software do the work and accepting what it
    > >does as what can be done.

    >
    > >I am a long way from being a HDR expert, but I have gotten to the
    > >point where I can take what PS or Photomatrix can give me as a
    > >starting point and come up with something that doesn't scream HDR.
    > >These are a few of my more recent images using HDR as I learn more.

    >
    > >http://picasaweb.google.com/Vance.Lear/HDR?authkey=Gv1sRgCLC8tZO1lp3G....

    >
    > >The dynamic range of the images all equal, or exceed, 11 stops and had
    > >to be aggressively post processed using a lot of local adjustments
    > >that you have to experiment with to discover what adjusments will
    > >bring the image into line.  For example, all of the images used areas
    > >copied to another layer, which was equalized in some fashion, and then
    > >blended back.  Sometimes those layers had attached adjustment curves,
    > >or were inverted after desaturation and then blended back using one of
    > >the blend modes.  The trouble is that I haven't found a real set of
    > >'rules' about what to do.  Things that have worked well on one image
    > >that you would think would work well on another, don't always perform
    > >that way.

    >
    > >HDR is a lot of fun, can be very useful and can certainly produce some
    > >images with a 'WOW!' factor.

    >
    > I'm jealous!
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > >Vance

    >
    > >On Jun 27, 8:31 pm, Savageduck <savageduck@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
    > >> I have been dabbling with HDR both with CS4 (OK , but not great) &
    > >> Photomatix Pro, which seems to give a fair degree of flexibility and
    > >> reasonable results.

    >
    > >> Here is an image I have been working with from a recent Yosemite road
    > >> trip. 3 exposures -1: 0: +1.http://homepage.mac.com/lco/filechute/Yosemite-19-20-21-HDRtm-Dc1w.jpg

    >
    > >> Any suggestions?

    >
    > >> --
    > >> Regards,

    >
    > >> Savageduck

    >
    > Eric Stevens- Hide quoted text -
    >
    > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
    >
    > - Show quoted text -


    Thanks for the compliment, but I'm not doing anything that you
    couldn't do. I have a professional interest in seeing what HDR can
    offer so I can offer it to potential customers, which goes a way
    towards explains why I would spend the time futzing with it. Then,
    again, I can't help but go 'What if I ...' There are a lot of fun
    things I think you can do with HDR, but I think you have to find out
    about some of them by just getting in there and experimenting. Right
    now, HDR is still an emerging technique and I think that sometime in
    the future there will be tutorials on really using it and how
    different things can be done in post to achieve specific results, but
    they aren't out there yet.

    Vance
     
    Vance, Jul 1, 2009
    #10
  11. Vance

    Vance Guest

    On Jun 30, 12:42 am, "Ken" <> wrote:

    Thank you.

    > Well I like your shots.
    >
     
    Vance, Jul 1, 2009
    #11
  12. Vance

    Vance Guest

    On Jun 30, 4:23 am, Wayne R. <> wrote:
    > On Mon, 29 Jun 2009 22:52:40 -0700 (PDT), Vance <>
    > wrote (with clarity & insight):
    >
    > >Getting a natural look out of HDR is not easy, or simple.  Neither PS,
    > >nor Photomatrix, will give you much more than a base that you then
    > >have to work up controlling contrast and saturation in something like
    > >PS.  Comments like 'Photomatrix gives me ...' and 'Photoshop
    > >produces ...' point out part of the problem with many HDR images,
    > >IMHO, which is letting the software do the work and accepting what it
    > >does as what can be done.

    >
    > These, to me, exemplify expertise in HDR work - something ideal, right
    > from your mind's eye. It's only with thought that it's clear HDR is
    > the central tool.
    >
    > Just like movies where CGI is so sophisticated that you're not even
    > aware it's there.
    >
    > In-your-face has its place too, but this subtlety is more appealing to
    > me.


    I really appreciate the compliment, but, as I said, I am nowhere near
    an expert. I have seen some HDR work by European photographers that I
    look at, know what they must have done, but can't for the life of me
    figure out how they did it. I'm still in the learning, experimenting
    phase.

    Still, thanks for the compliment.

    Vance
     
    Vance, Jul 1, 2009
    #12
  13. Vance

    Paul Furman Guest

    Vance wrote:
    > Peter wrote:
    >>
    >> HDR is a lot of fun, can be very useful and can certainly produce some
    >> images with a 'WOW!' factor.
    >>
    >> Just a question. I notice in photo three on of the buildings has a white
    >> outline around it. I have had similar issues, though usually the outlines
    >> are black.. There must be a way to avoid this outlining?

    >
    > If you're refering to the the tall buildings to the right of the
    > image, it's probably a combination of poor masking on my part and the
    > fact that the buildings are outlined in lights.


    Christmas lights on the Embarcadero Center.
    http://picasaweb.google.com/Vance.L...CLC8tZO1lp3G3wE#slideshow/5352986755994488866
    really nice shot IMO

    > Anything else is
    > probably just poor masking. I do a lot of masking because I work
    > various areas separately using not only the selected area, but often a
    > luminosity mask within the area that controls any adjustments I am
    > making based on the tones in the image area I am working.
    >
    > I don't know how you would totally avoid the outlining, or haloing,


    My approach has been to use course soft-edged masks more akin to a
    graduated neutral density filter. It's amazing what you can get away
    with if the radius is big enough. I got turned off to hdr after not much
    experimenting because of the halo effects. The halos I saw were not like
    narrow sharpening halos but more like a 50-pixel glow in the sky
    around the edge of buildings & trees. I found, if I mask into the
    building it works out well - too obvious to have the mask/halo in the sky.

    Lightroom has highlight recovery & fill sliders which I use often but
    must remember to keep an eye on the results, some conditions will make
    hideous halo effects. A safe formula in many cases is drop the exposure,
    add fill light & increase contrast. Highlight recovery often fails but
    sometimes is fine. LR has a paintbrush adjustment also so you can paint
    an area and adjust all those settings for that region.


    > because of what HDR does in compressing the tonal range. It's an
    > artifact of the processing. Where it's noticeable, I usually paint it
    > in and, depending on the area (broad, smooth tones are the easiest),
    > blend with a little blurring. I have been experimenting with doing a
    > selection on edges a little wider than normal and working with
    > correcting those areas, then blending back in. I'm still working on
    > that and can't say it is always successful. It's iffy.
    >
    > I find working with no tone curve applied and a somewhat desaturated
    > image helps a lot. I then bring the final image up to snuff re
    > contrast and saturation at the end. Another thing I am experimenting
    > with is not exposing based on some fixed bracketing, but exposing each
    > frame so that it contibutes to the final look I want. All of this is
    > still experimental and I can't say it's worth doing, yet.
    >
    > Vance



    --
    Paul Furman
    www.edgehill.net
    www.baynatives.com

    all google groups messages filtered due to spam
     
    Paul Furman, Jul 1, 2009
    #13
  14. Vance

    Vance Guest

    On Jun 30, 7:51 pm, Paul Furman <> wrote:
    > Vance wrote:
    > > Peter wrote:

    >
    > >> HDR is a lot of fun, can be very useful and can certainly produce some
    > >> images with a 'WOW!' factor.

    >
    > >> Just a question. I notice in photo three on of the buildings has a white
    > >> outline around it. I have had similar issues, though usually the outlines
    > >> are black.. There must be a way to avoid this outlining?

    >
    > > If you're refering to the the tall buildings to the right of the
    > > image, it's probably a combination of poor masking on my part and the
    > > fact that the buildings are outlined in lights.

    >
    > Christmas lights on the Embarcadero Center.http://picasaweb.google.com/Vance.Lear/HDR?authkey=Gv1sRgCLC8tZO1lp3G...
    > really nice shot IMO
    >
    > > Anything else is
    > > probably just poor masking.  I do a lot of masking because I work
    > > various areas separately using not only the selected area, but often a
    > > luminosity mask within the area that controls any adjustments I am
    > > making based on the tones in the image area I am working.

    >
    > > I don't know how you would totally avoid the outlining, or haloing,

    >
    > My approach has been to use course soft-edged masks more akin to a
    > graduated neutral density filter. It's amazing what you can get away
    > with if the radius is big enough. I got turned off to hdr after not much
    > experimenting because of the halo effects. The halos I saw were not like
    >   narrow sharpening halos but more like a 50-pixel glow in the sky
    > around the edge of buildings & trees. I found, if I mask into the
    > building it works out well - too obvious to have the mask/halo in the sky..
    >
    > Lightroom has highlight recovery & fill sliders which I use often but
    > must remember to keep an eye on the results, some conditions will make
    > hideous halo effects. A safe formula in many cases is drop the exposure,
    > add fill light & increase contrast. Highlight recovery often fails but
    > sometimes is fine. LR has a paintbrush adjustment also so you can paint
    > an area and adjust all those settings for that region.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > because of what HDR does in compressing the tonal range.  It's an
    > > artifact of the processing.  Where it's noticeable, I usually paint it
    > > in and, depending on the area (broad, smooth tones are the easiest),
    > > blend with a little blurring.  I have been experimenting with doing a
    > > selection on edges a little wider than normal and working with
    > > correcting those areas, then blending back in.  I'm still working on
    > > that and can't say it is always successful.  It's iffy.

    >
    > > I find working with no tone curve applied and a somewhat desaturated
    > > image helps a lot.  I then bring the final image up to snuff re
    > > contrast and saturation at the end.  Another thing I am experimenting
    > > with is not exposing based on some fixed bracketing, but exposing each
    > > frame so that it contibutes to the final look I want.  All of this is
    > > still experimental and I can't say it's worth doing, yet.

    >
    > > Vance

    >
    > --
    > Paul Furmanwww.edgehill.netwww.baynatives.com
    >
    > all google groups messages filtered due to spam- Hide quoted text -
    >
    > - Show quoted text -


    I use CS4 Extended and it has the same facilities. One thing I do is
    pre-process the images that are going into the HDR composite using the
    same brush tool that you mentioned to adjust exposure, contrast,
    saturation, etc., until the tonal range I am interested in from that
    frame is good. I find that the results are better than if I just
    throw the raw images into the mix and go for it.

    Something I am finding extremely useful are luminosity masks.
    Basically, they are gray scale images that you can apply the whole
    range of adjustments to and then put into an adjustment layer mask.
    The level of gray modifies the amount of effect that the adjusment
    layer can apply. Where it's black, there is no effect applied and
    where it's white the whole effect is applied. Since you can also
    invert the mask, it's extremely flexible and you can make even finer
    adjustments by painting with gray tones on the mask.

    Vance
     
    Vance, Jul 1, 2009
    #14
  15. Vance

    Peter Guest

    "Vance" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    On Jun 30, 4:31 pm, "Peter" <> wrote:
    > "Vance" <> wrote in message
    >

    [Snipped]

    > HDR is a lot of fun, can be very useful and can certainly produce some
    > images with a 'WOW!' factor.
    >
    > Just a question. I notice in photo three on of the buildings has a white
    > outline around it. I have had similar issues, though usually the outlines
    > are black.. There must be a way to avoid this outlining?
    >
    > --
    > Peter


    If you're refering to the the tall buildings to the right of the
    image, it's probably a combination of poor masking on my part and the
    fact that the buildings are outlined in lights. Anything else is
    probably just poor masking. I do a lot of masking because I work
    various areas separately using not only the selected area, but often a
    luminosity mask within the area that controls any adjustments I am
    making based on the tones in the image area I am working.

    I don't know how you would totally avoid the outlining, or haloing,
    because of what HDR does in compressing the tonal range. It's an
    artifact of the processing. Where it's noticeable, I usually paint it
    in and, depending on the area (broad, smooth tones are the easiest),
    blend with a little blurring. I have been experimenting with doing a
    selection on edges a little wider than normal and working with
    correcting those areas, then blending back in. I'm still working on
    that and can't say it is always successful. It's iffy.

    I find working with no tone curve applied and a somewhat desaturated
    image helps a lot. I then bring the final image up to snuff re
    contrast and saturation at the end. Another thing I am experimenting
    with is not exposing based on some fixed bracketing, but exposing each
    frame so that it contibutes to the final look I want. All of this is
    still experimental and I can't say it's worth doing, yet.



    Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I have been playing with the problem and
    you have given us some direction.



    --
    Peter
     
    Peter, Jul 1, 2009
    #15
  16. Vance

    Paul Furman Guest

    Vance wrote:
    > On Jun 30, 7:51 pm, Paul Furman <> wrote:
    >> Vance wrote:
    >>> Peter wrote:
    >>>> HDR is a lot of fun, can be very useful and can certainly produce some
    >>>> images with a 'WOW!' factor.
    >>>> Just a question. I notice in photo three on of the buildings has a white
    >>>> outline around it. I have had similar issues, though usually the outlines
    >>>> are black.. There must be a way to avoid this outlining?
    >>> If you're refering to the the tall buildings to the right of the
    >>> image, it's probably a combination of poor masking on my part and the
    >>> fact that the buildings are outlined in lights.

    >> Christmas lights on the Embarcadero Center.http://picasaweb.google.com/Vance.Lear/HDR?authkey=Gv1sRgCLC8tZO1lp3G...
    >> really nice shot IMO
    >>
    >>> Anything else is
    >>> probably just poor masking. I do a lot of masking because I work
    >>> various areas separately using not only the selected area, but often a
    >>> luminosity mask within the area that controls any adjustments I am
    >>> making based on the tones in the image area I am working.
    >>> I don't know how you would totally avoid the outlining, or haloing,

    >> My approach has been to use course soft-edged masks more akin to a
    >> graduated neutral density filter. It's amazing what you can get away
    >> with if the radius is big enough. I got turned off to hdr after not much
    >> experimenting because of the halo effects. The halos I saw were not like
    >> narrow sharpening halos but more like a 50-pixel glow in the sky
    >> around the edge of buildings & trees. I found, if I mask into the
    >> building it works out well - too obvious to have the mask/halo in the sky.
    >>
    >> Lightroom has highlight recovery & fill sliders which I use often but
    >> must remember to keep an eye on the results, some conditions will make
    >> hideous halo effects. A safe formula in many cases is drop the exposure,
    >> add fill light & increase contrast. Highlight recovery often fails but
    >> sometimes is fine. LR has a paintbrush adjustment also so you can paint
    >> an area and adjust all those settings for that region.
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>> because of what HDR does in compressing the tonal range. It's an
    >>> artifact of the processing. Where it's noticeable, I usually paint it
    >>> in and, depending on the area (broad, smooth tones are the easiest),
    >>> blend with a little blurring. I have been experimenting with doing a
    >>> selection on edges a little wider than normal and working with
    >>> correcting those areas, then blending back in. I'm still working on
    >>> that and can't say it is always successful. It's iffy.
    >>> I find working with no tone curve applied and a somewhat desaturated
    >>> image helps a lot. I then bring the final image up to snuff re
    >>> contrast and saturation at the end. Another thing I am experimenting
    >>> with is not exposing based on some fixed bracketing, but exposing each
    >>> frame so that it contibutes to the final look I want. All of this is
    >>> still experimental and I can't say it's worth doing, yet.
    >>> Vance

    >> --
    >> Paul Furmanwww.edgehill.netwww.baynatives.com
    >>
    >> all google groups messages filtered due to spam- Hide quoted text -
    >>
    >> - Show quoted text -

    >
    > I use CS4 Extended and it has the same facilities. One thing I do is
    > pre-process the images that are going into the HDR composite using the
    > same brush tool that you mentioned to adjust exposure, contrast,
    > saturation, etc., until the tonal range I am interested in from that
    > frame is good. I find that the results are better than if I just
    > throw the raw images into the mix and go for it.
    >
    > Something I am finding extremely useful are luminosity masks.
    > Basically, they are gray scale images that you can apply the whole
    > range of adjustments to and then put into an adjustment layer mask.
    > The level of gray modifies the amount of effect that the adjusment
    > layer can apply. Where it's black, there is no effect applied and
    > where it's white the whole effect is applied. Since you can also
    > invert the mask, it's extremely flexible and you can make even finer
    > adjustments by painting with gray tones on the mask.


    That sounds good, something I've just barely explored. I suspect that's
    the approach that the hdr programs take which causes halos though I can
    see how taking control of the mask with the option to paint out problem
    areas makes a lot of sense!

    --
    Paul Furman
    www.edgehill.net
    www.baynatives.com

    all google groups messages filtered due to spam
     
    Paul Furman, Jul 2, 2009
    #16
  17. Vance

    Vance Guest

    On Jul 1, 9:02 pm, Paul Furman <> wrote:
    > Vance wrote:
    > > On Jun 30, 7:51 pm, Paul Furman <> wrote:
    > >> Vance wrote:
    > >>> Peter wrote:
    > >>>> HDR is a lot of fun, can be very useful and can certainly produce some
    > >>>> images with a 'WOW!' factor.
    > >>>> Just a question. I notice in photo three on of the buildings has a white
    > >>>> outline around it. I have had similar issues, though usually the outlines
    > >>>> are black.. There must be a way to avoid this outlining?
    > >>> If you're refering to the the tall buildings to the right of the
    > >>> image, it's probably a combination of poor masking on my part and the
    > >>> fact that the buildings are outlined in lights.
    > >> Christmas lights on the Embarcadero Center.http://picasaweb.google.com/Vance.Lear/HDR?authkey=Gv1sRgCLC8tZO1lp3G...
    > >> really nice shot IMO

    >
    > >>> Anything else is
    > >>> probably just poor masking.  I do a lot of masking because I work
    > >>> various areas separately using not only the selected area, but often a
    > >>> luminosity mask within the area that controls any adjustments I am
    > >>> making based on the tones in the image area I am working.
    > >>> I don't know how you would totally avoid the outlining, or haloing,
    > >> My approach has been to use course soft-edged masks more akin to a
    > >> graduated neutral density filter. It's amazing what you can get away
    > >> with if the radius is big enough. I got turned off to hdr after not much
    > >> experimenting because of the halo effects. The halos I saw were not like
    > >>   narrow sharpening halos but more like a 50-pixel glow in the sky
    > >> around the edge of buildings & trees. I found, if I mask into the
    > >> building it works out well - too obvious to have the mask/halo in the sky.

    >
    > >> Lightroom has highlight recovery & fill sliders which I use often but
    > >> must remember to keep an eye on the results, some conditions will make
    > >> hideous halo effects. A safe formula in many cases is drop the exposure,
    > >> add fill light & increase contrast. Highlight recovery often fails but
    > >> sometimes is fine. LR has a paintbrush adjustment also so you can paint
    > >> an area and adjust all those settings for that region.

    >
    > >>> because of what HDR does in compressing the tonal range.  It's an
    > >>> artifact of the processing.  Where it's noticeable, I usually paint it
    > >>> in and, depending on the area (broad, smooth tones are the easiest),
    > >>> blend with a little blurring.  I have been experimenting with doing a
    > >>> selection on edges a little wider than normal and working with
    > >>> correcting those areas, then blending back in.  I'm still working on
    > >>> that and can't say it is always successful.  It's iffy.
    > >>> I find working with no tone curve applied and a somewhat desaturated
    > >>> image helps a lot.  I then bring the final image up to snuff re
    > >>> contrast and saturation at the end.  Another thing I am experimenting
    > >>> with is not exposing based on some fixed bracketing, but exposing each
    > >>> frame so that it contibutes to the final look I want.  All of this is
    > >>> still experimental and I can't say it's worth doing, yet.
    > >>> Vance
    > >> --
    > >> Paul Furmanwww.edgehill.netwww.baynatives.com

    >
    > >> all google groups messages filtered due to spam- Hide quoted text -

    >
    > >> - Show quoted text -

    >
    > > I use CS4 Extended and it has the same facilities.  One thing I do is
    > > pre-process the images that are going into the HDR composite using the
    > > same brush tool that you mentioned to adjust exposure, contrast,
    > > saturation, etc., until the tonal range I am interested in from that
    > > frame is good.  I find that the results are better than if I just
    > > throw the raw images into the mix and go for it.

    >
    > > Something I am finding extremely useful are luminosity masks.
    > > Basically, they are gray scale images that you can apply the whole
    > > range of adjustments to and then put into an adjustment layer mask.
    > > The level of gray modifies the amount of effect that the adjusment
    > > layer can apply.  Where it's black, there is no effect applied and
    > > where it's white the whole effect is applied.  Since you can also
    > > invert the mask, it's extremely flexible and you can make even finer
    > > adjustments by painting with gray tones on the mask.

    >
    > That sounds good, something I've just barely explored. I suspect that's
    > the approach that the hdr programs take which causes halos though I can
    > see how taking control of the mask with the option to paint out problem
    > areas makes a lot of sense!
    >
    > --
    > Paul Furmanwww.edgehill.netwww.baynatives.com
    >
    > all google groups messages filtered due to spam- Hide quoted text -
    >
    > - Show quoted text -


    I've got some potentially intersting things to try with HDR. We live
    in the same town, so you're probably familiar with Lands End and that
    tunnel that goes through the rocks to the right of the Sutro Bath
    ruins. Halfway through it is a fissure that leads out to the ocean.
    I think I'm going to try getting in there at low tide and shoot as the
    tide comes in using flash. The idea is that the outside exposure will
    remain the same since the flash won't add to it and I can light the
    inside of the fissure by increasing the flash power to get my HDR
    image of the inside. I can throw some serious light if I need to. I
    am hoping that the inside of the fissure will take on a surreal look
    in contrast to the very normal looking outside.

    Remember, you heard of doing it here first! If it turns out crappy,
    someone else must have done it!

    By the way, speaking of living in the same town, what do you think of
    the HDR of our City Hall? After all, you've seen it up close and
    personal. Of course, you may not have seen it at night. There is
    something not quite successful with the composition, I think, but I am
    not sure what it is. I may try a stitched panorama shot and move
    closer to the building, but capturing something that covers a whole
    city block is problematical no matter what I do. Any, tell me what
    you think.

    Vance

    Vance
     
    Vance, Jul 2, 2009
    #17
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