Re: Photo Opportunity

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by David Dyer-Bennet, Oct 2, 2012.

  1. Eric Stevens <> writes:

    > Since Saturday's effort I have made arrangements to take the camera
    > and lens back to the service centre to try and get to the bottom of
    > the problem. If necessary, they will send the lens back to the
    > factory.


    Good luck! I've got that one (70-200/2.8 VR, I see I cut the quote a
    bit drastically), and it's quite good for me even on a D700 (where I
    actually use the corners of the image). But of course there's *always*
    some sample variation in manufacturing, and things happen after it
    leaves the factory.

    Couple of things -- don't use VR on a tripod with that lens. Probably
    don't use VR at very high shutter speeds (which might mean faster than
    1/1500 or so). The tripod problem is monumental and obvious, though,
    you wouldn't think it just wasn't quite as sharp as you had hoped if you
    were seeing the same things my test showed when I used VR on a tripod.

    And while that lens is quite good a f/2.8, it seems very weird to me to
    be using f/3.3 in bright daylight with shutter speeds up north of 1/5000
    of a second. Stopping down will get you some improvement, AND will help
    the AF too (more DOF means it doesn't have to focus as accurately to
    look good).

    But with luck there's just something wrong with your lens or body; then
    somebody else can fix it for you :).
    --
    Googleproofaddress(account:dd-b provider:dd-b domain:net)
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    David Dyer-Bennet, Oct 2, 2012
    #1
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  2. David Dyer-Bennet

    Rob Guest

    On 2/10/2012 10:31 AM, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
    > Eric Stevens <> writes:
    >
    >> Since Saturday's effort I have made arrangements to take the camera
    >> and lens back to the service centre to try and get to the bottom of
    >> the problem. If necessary, they will send the lens back to the
    >> factory.

    >
    > Good luck! I've got that one (70-200/2.8 VR, I see I cut the quote a
    > bit drastically), and it's quite good for me even on a D700 (where I
    > actually use the corners of the image). But of course there's *always*
    > some sample variation in manufacturing, and things happen after it
    > leaves the factory.
    >
    > Couple of things -- don't use VR on a tripod with that lens. Probably
    > don't use VR at very high shutter speeds (which might mean faster than
    > 1/1500 or so). The tripod problem is monumental and obvious, though,
    > you wouldn't think it just wasn't quite as sharp as you had hoped if you
    > were seeing the same things my test showed when I used VR on a tripod.
    >
    > And while that lens is quite good a f/2.8, it seems very weird to me to
    > be using f/3.3 in bright daylight with shutter speeds up north of 1/5000
    > of a second. Stopping down will get you some improvement, AND will help
    > the AF too (more DOF means it doesn't have to focus as accurately to
    > look good).
    >
    > But with luck there's just something wrong with your lens or body; then
    > somebody else can fix it for you :).
    >


    I don't think that moving aircraft images should be shot at 1/5000 it
    makes the image look too static with a rendered background. I use slower
    speeds to show prop movement.

    Aerial photos of land/buildings should be shot at least, the ground
    speed of the aircraft. (200kts - 1/200th - focus does not matter its
    greater than infinity)

    Would agree you don't use VR on a tripod does funny things like blur the
    image whilst its chugging around.
     
    Rob, Oct 2, 2012
    #2
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  3. Eric Stevens <> writes:

    > On Mon, 01 Oct 2012 19:31:25 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >>Eric Stevens <> writes:
    >>
    >>> Since Saturday's effort I have made arrangements to take the camera
    >>> and lens back to the service centre to try and get to the bottom of
    >>> the problem. If necessary, they will send the lens back to the
    >>> factory.

    >>
    >>Good luck! I've got that one (70-200/2.8 VR, I see I cut the quote a
    >>bit drastically), and it's quite good for me even on a D700 (where I
    >>actually use the corners of the image). But of course there's *always*
    >>some sample variation in manufacturing, and things happen after it
    >>leaves the factory.
    >>
    >>Couple of things -- don't use VR on a tripod with that lens. Probably
    >>don't use VR at very high shutter speeds (which might mean faster than
    >>1/1500 or so). The tripod problem is monumental and obvious, though,
    >>you wouldn't think it just wasn't quite as sharp as you had hoped if you
    >>were seeing the same things my test showed when I used VR on a tripod.
    >>
    >>And while that lens is quite good a f/2.8, it seems very weird to me to
    >>be using f/3.3 in bright daylight with shutter speeds up north of 1/5000
    >>of a second. Stopping down will get you some improvement, AND will help
    >>the AF too (more DOF means it doesn't have to focus as accurately to
    >>look good).

    >
    > First, I have always had shaky hands (essential tremor) and camera
    > shake has always been a problem for me. Second, my tremor has
    > increased with increasing age (78) and I worry about camera shake more
    > than I used to. Third, the flight display path was close to where I
    > was standing (almost right overhead) and at 300 knots things came and
    > went very quickly. All of this pointed to my use of a high shutter
    > speed. Further, I understand that this lens works best at or near full
    > aperture. Also the light was threatening to become dim (but it never
    > seemed to actually do it). So I started off at wide open and after
    > checking what I could see on the screen I concluded the images were
    > sharp etc and the histogram was OK. I must admit I laughed slightly
    > hysterically at 1/6400 and 1/8000 of a second.


    Ah, I'd forgotten the essential tremor problem, though I now remember
    having seen you post about it before.

    These exceptionally high shutter speeds really are something of a
    game-changer, in carefully selected games. I've frozen a cannonball in
    flight using just the camera shutter.

    > Knowing what I know now, if I had to do it again, I would probably
    > stop down to f/5.6 and +1 exposure compensation. That would still have
    > the shutter speed insanely high by my old standards.


    And might well freeze the props further than is really desirable.

    >>But with luck there's just something wrong with your lens or body; then
    >>somebody else can fix it for you :).

    >
    > If they find nothing, I will have to assume it's me. I'm already
    > working on that.


    Test on tripod with VR off and you can eliminate both your tremor and VR
    interaction possibilities, and see more of just what the lens does. For
    testing, use Live View to focus, because that eliminates any error
    between the phase-detect AF system and the actual sensor plane, another
    possible source of error. Also, go for similar distances, close limits
    are sometimes somewhat compromised opitcally.

    --
    Googleproofaddress(account:dd-b provider:dd-b domain:net)
    Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
    Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/
    Dragaera: http://dragaera.info
     
    David Dyer-Bennet, Oct 2, 2012
    #3
  4. Rob <> writes:

    > Would agree you don't use VR on a tripod does funny things like blur
    > the image whilst its chugging around.


    That's definitely true for the Nikon 70-200/2.8 VR first version, both
    as given in the manual and as shown in my tests.

    This is an area where you need to read the manual for the specific lens,
    because even in the Nikon line they don't all say the same thing, and
    the manual seems to be generally right.
    --
    Googleproofaddress(account:dd-b provider:dd-b domain:net)
    Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
    Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/
    Dragaera: http://dragaera.info
     
    David Dyer-Bennet, Oct 2, 2012
    #4
  5. David Dyer-Bennet

    Bruce Guest

    David Dyer-Bennet <> wrote:
    >Eric Stevens <> writes:
    >>
    >> First, I have always had shaky hands (essential tremor) and camera
    >> shake has always been a problem for me. Second, my tremor has
    >> increased with increasing age (78) and I worry about camera shake more
    >> than I used to. Third, the flight display path was close to where I
    >> was standing (almost right overhead) and at 300 knots things came and
    >> went very quickly. All of this pointed to my use of a high shutter
    >> speed. Further, I understand that this lens works best at or near full
    >> aperture. Also the light was threatening to become dim (but it never
    >> seemed to actually do it). So I started off at wide open and after
    >> checking what I could see on the screen I concluded the images were
    >> sharp etc and the histogram was OK. I must admit I laughed slightly
    >> hysterically at 1/6400 and 1/8000 of a second.

    >
    >Ah, I'd forgotten the essential tremor problem, though I now remember
    >having seen you post about it before.



    I'm twenty years younger than Eric but I also have essential tremor
    and have had it for most of my life. It unfortunately affected the
    anti-shake systems in several lenses. I have had to sell these lenses
    because there is no way they can deliver sharp results in my hands.

    They include:
    Nikkor 70-300mm f/4-5.6 AF-G VR
    Panasonic 45-200mm f/4-5.6 Mega OIS

    It seemed strange that I was getting better results with VR or OIS
    turned off.
     
    Bruce, Oct 2, 2012
    #5
  6. Eric Stevens <> writes:

    > On Tue, 02 Oct 2012 21:34:22 +0100, Bruce <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >>David Dyer-Bennet <> wrote:
    >>>Eric Stevens <> writes:
    >>>>
    >>>> First, I have always had shaky hands (essential tremor) and camera
    >>>> shake has always been a problem for me. Second, my tremor has
    >>>> increased with increasing age (78) and I worry about camera shake more
    >>>> than I used to. Third, the flight display path was close to where I
    >>>> was standing (almost right overhead) and at 300 knots things came and
    >>>> went very quickly. All of this pointed to my use of a high shutter
    >>>> speed. Further, I understand that this lens works best at or near full
    >>>> aperture. Also the light was threatening to become dim (but it never
    >>>> seemed to actually do it). So I started off at wide open and after
    >>>> checking what I could see on the screen I concluded the images were
    >>>> sharp etc and the histogram was OK. I must admit I laughed slightly
    >>>> hysterically at 1/6400 and 1/8000 of a second.
    >>>
    >>>Ah, I'd forgotten the essential tremor problem, though I now remember
    >>>having seen you post about it before.

    >>
    >>
    >>I'm twenty years younger than Eric but I also have essential tremor
    >>and have had it for most of my life. It unfortunately affected the
    >>anti-shake systems in several lenses. I have had to sell these lenses
    >>because there is no way they can deliver sharp results in my hands.
    >>
    >>They include:
    >>Nikkor 70-300mm f/4-5.6 AF-G VR
    >>Panasonic 45-200mm f/4-5.6 Mega OIS
    >>
    >>It seemed strange that I was getting better results with VR or OIS
    >>turned off.
    >>

    > That's interesting. I'm beginning to suspect that VR may not be the
    > friend I thought it was.


    Maybe the "active" setting (for moving cars) would work better? Depends
    how your tremor matches the two models the Nikon VR 70-200 supports.
    --
    Googleproofaddress(account:dd-b provider:dd-b domain:net)
    Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
    Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/
    Dragaera: http://dragaera.info
     
    David Dyer-Bennet, Oct 3, 2012
    #6
  7. Eric Stevens <> writes:

    > On Tue, 02 Oct 2012 14:57:45 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >>Eric Stevens <> writes:
    >>
    >>> On Mon, 01 Oct 2012 19:31:25 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet <>
    >>> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>Eric Stevens <> writes:
    >>>>
    >>>>> Since Saturday's effort I have made arrangements to take the camera
    >>>>> and lens back to the service centre to try and get to the bottom of
    >>>>> the problem. If necessary, they will send the lens back to the
    >>>>> factory.
    >>>>
    >>>>Good luck! I've got that one (70-200/2.8 VR, I see I cut the quote a
    >>>>bit drastically), and it's quite good for me even on a D700 (where I
    >>>>actually use the corners of the image). But of course there's *always*
    >>>>some sample variation in manufacturing, and things happen after it
    >>>>leaves the factory.
    >>>>
    >>>>Couple of things -- don't use VR on a tripod with that lens. Probably
    >>>>don't use VR at very high shutter speeds (which might mean faster than
    >>>>1/1500 or so). The tripod problem is monumental and obvious, though,
    >>>>you wouldn't think it just wasn't quite as sharp as you had hoped if you
    >>>>were seeing the same things my test showed when I used VR on a tripod.
    >>>>
    >>>>And while that lens is quite good a f/2.8, it seems very weird to me to
    >>>>be using f/3.3 in bright daylight with shutter speeds up north of 1/5000
    >>>>of a second. Stopping down will get you some improvement, AND will help
    >>>>the AF too (more DOF means it doesn't have to focus as accurately to
    >>>>look good).
    >>>
    >>> First, I have always had shaky hands (essential tremor) and camera
    >>> shake has always been a problem for me. Second, my tremor has
    >>> increased with increasing age (78) and I worry about camera shake more
    >>> than I used to. Third, the flight display path was close to where I
    >>> was standing (almost right overhead) and at 300 knots things came and
    >>> went very quickly. All of this pointed to my use of a high shutter
    >>> speed. Further, I understand that this lens works best at or near full
    >>> aperture. Also the light was threatening to become dim (but it never
    >>> seemed to actually do it). So I started off at wide open and after
    >>> checking what I could see on the screen I concluded the images were
    >>> sharp etc and the histogram was OK. I must admit I laughed slightly
    >>> hysterically at 1/6400 and 1/8000 of a second.

    >>
    >>Ah, I'd forgotten the essential tremor problem, though I now remember
    >>having seen you post about it before.
    >>
    >>These exceptionally high shutter speeds really are something of a
    >>game-changer, in carefully selected games. I've frozen a cannonball in
    >>flight using just the camera shutter.
    >>
    >>> Knowing what I know now, if I had to do it again, I would probably
    >>> stop down to f/5.6 and +1 exposure compensation. That would still have
    >>> the shutter speed insanely high by my old standards.

    >>
    >>And might well freeze the props further than is really desirable.
    >>
    >>>>But with luck there's just something wrong with your lens or body; then
    >>>>somebody else can fix it for you :).
    >>>
    >>> If they find nothing, I will have to assume it's me. I'm already
    >>> working on that.

    >>
    >>Test on tripod with VR off and you can eliminate both your tremor and VR
    >>interaction possibilities, and see more of just what the lens does.

    >
    > I did that two or three years ago. The lens was only as good as an 18
    > year old 70~200 Tokina in which I was slightly disappointed.
    >
    >> For
    >>testing, use Live View to focus, because that eliminates any error
    >>between the phase-detect AF system and the actual sensor plane, another
    >>possible source of error. Also, go for similar distances, close limits
    >>are sometimes somewhat compromised opitcally.

    >
    > I've done all that. I've never thought the lens was as good as it
    > should be.


    Okay, you're ahead of me. Does sound like a lens problem -- I upgraded
    from a 70-200/2.8 Tokina to mine and found it an optical improvement and
    a huge AF improvement.
    --
    Googleproofaddress(account:dd-b provider:dd-b domain:net)
    Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
    Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/
    Dragaera: http://dragaera.info
     
    David Dyer-Bennet, Oct 3, 2012
    #7
  8. David Dyer-Bennet

    Bruce Guest

    Eric Stevens <> wrote:

    >On Tue, 02 Oct 2012 21:34:22 +0100, Bruce <>
    >wrote:
    >
    >>David Dyer-Bennet <> wrote:
    >>>Eric Stevens <> writes:
    >>>>
    >>>> First, I have always had shaky hands (essential tremor) and camera
    >>>> shake has always been a problem for me. Second, my tremor has
    >>>> increased with increasing age (78) and I worry about camera shake more
    >>>> than I used to. Third, the flight display path was close to where I
    >>>> was standing (almost right overhead) and at 300 knots things came and
    >>>> went very quickly. All of this pointed to my use of a high shutter
    >>>> speed. Further, I understand that this lens works best at or near full
    >>>> aperture. Also the light was threatening to become dim (but it never
    >>>> seemed to actually do it). So I started off at wide open and after
    >>>> checking what I could see on the screen I concluded the images were
    >>>> sharp etc and the histogram was OK. I must admit I laughed slightly
    >>>> hysterically at 1/6400 and 1/8000 of a second.
    >>>
    >>>Ah, I'd forgotten the essential tremor problem, though I now remember
    >>>having seen you post about it before.

    >>
    >>
    >>I'm twenty years younger than Eric but I also have essential tremor
    >>and have had it for most of my life. It unfortunately affected the
    >>anti-shake systems in several lenses. I have had to sell these lenses
    >>because there is no way they can deliver sharp results in my hands.
    >>
    >>They include:
    >>Nikkor 70-300mm f/4-5.6 AF-G VR
    >>Panasonic 45-200mm f/4-5.6 Mega OIS
    >>
    >>It seemed strange that I was getting better results with VR or OIS
    >>turned off.
    >>

    >That's interesting.



    I first noticed it with an 80-400mm VR Nikkor I was testing for a
    review. I just couldn't get sharp images with it unless I stuck to
    the shutter speed = 1/focal length "rule".

    Of course part of the problem was that the 80-400mm VR Nikkor isn't
    especially sharp to start with. But I found the same problem with the
    70-200mm VR Nikkor and later with the VR II version.

    The effect is at its worst with the two lenses I listed:
    Nikkor 70-300mm f/4-5.6 AF-G VR
    Panasonic 45-200mm f/4-5.6 Mega OIS

    Panasonic has had other, unrelated problems with its 45-175mm Z lens
    where the OIS (VR type) system is completely thrown off within a
    certain range of shutter speeds. There is also a 14-42mm Z lens which
    produces poor results but I don't know whether that is also a problem
    with the OIS system.


    >I'm beginning to suspect that VR may not be the friend I thought it was.



    Yes, that's how it looks.

    At least I now know why I have experienced significant problems in the
    past. Apparently I have probably had this since childhood. It's too
    late to worry about it now. ;-)
     
    Bruce, Oct 3, 2012
    #8
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