Re: Paper certs....

Discussion in 'MCSE' started by Diana Myers, Aug 1, 2003.

  1. Diana Myers

    Diana Myers Guest

    To me a "paper MCSE" is a person that only studyed/retained information long
    enough to pass the exam, used any and all methods that could be found to
    help with passing the exam including cheating and aquiring knowledge from
    others. A "paper MCSE" doesn't have the skills or knowledge to work in the
    real world of IT. I'm an IT Consultant working in Las Vegas and I spend
    most of my days going into different businesses fixing problems that their
    "paper MCSE" created and can not figure out how to fix. From an IT
    Consultant's view point I both like/hate the "paper MCSE". Like them
    because thanks to them my consulting fees just keep rolling in and hate them
    because they make it hard for those of us that really do have the skills and
    knowledge to do the job needed. Because of the "paper MCSE" too many
    business are starting to question if IT personnel can REALLY do the jobs
    that are needing to be filled. Also from an IT Consultant's stand point too
    many clients question your skills and knowledge based on the fact that their
    so called qualified "paper MCSE" doesn't know what they are doing. And as
    stated in another reply to this posting the "paper MCSEs" are causing the
    salaries to drastically go down. I have over 15 years experience along with
    my certification; however a year ago I was offered an administrators
    position starting at $25,000 per year, what a joke. Check out the job
    postings in Las Vegas and you'll find that the cocktail waitresses in the
    casinos can make more than IT personnel. It's not unusual to find postings
    for IT jobs starting at $7.50 per hour.

    I'm not saying that I don't welcome new MCSEs; however I think that people
    that work in the IT field or want to work in the field need to start
    thinking of the ramifications of the "paper MCSE" and how we can protect
    ourselves both now and in the future. Also the "newbies" to the IT field
    need to remember that those bill salaries do not come over night, but only
    after working hard and working your way up the latter. Don't expect to get
    your MCSE and then start at the top. Just remember that some of us have
    worked hard for years to get to the top. We also have a wealth of knowledge
    that we can share with you; however getting us to share our knowledge won't
    be easy if you come in with your "paper MCSE" and act like you know it all.

    Diana Myers


    "znakomi" <> wrote in message
    news:059001c357a3$3d90a040$...
    > I'm looking for opinions from folks who look down on paper
    > certs. I've been trying to think of reasons why someone
    > would look down on them, but I'm coming up empty. I have
    > heard it about how much damage they do, and how some
    > people who study for them should almost be looked down on
    > for doing something "wrong". But I havent heard the
    > reasons why it is wrong to study for MCSE for people who
    > don't already work in IT.
    >
    > I like my job, and it's not IT, (engineer in digital
    > imaging equipment). I would venture to say that if a great
    > IT person came up to me and said he had another passion of
    > digital image processing, and he went to school for it
    > even though he may never work in it...I'd say "great, you
    > like Heiniken?". Why would I say anything else?
    >
    > The world is always changing, and even though I've worked
    > for this behemoth since some of the naysayers were in
    > diapers...downsizing is a reality. MCSE is interesting, it
    > skirts my job, and I could be laid off someday. Nice if I
    > could get my foot in the door and try this path if I
    > wanted to. I went for an interview last year for just for
    > the heck of it, (first interview in 15 + years). I had no
    > intention for the job, but I wanted to see if I'd get an
    > offer...which I did for twenty five an hour, (nowhere near
    > enough to derail me). But it was worth my effort, and I
    > wouldn't have gotten the offer without my paper cert.
    >
    > Besides, this stuff is fun, and it gives me excuses to
    > have all these computers around the house.
    >
    > Now I fully agree with naysayers who get down on people
    > who cheat. I don't cheat, (the only justice there is the
    > cheaters know how they are, worthless).
    >
    > So, please tell me the reasons why we must look down on
    > people like me with my nasty paper certificate. Why I was
    > wrong to do what I did.
    >
    > My school cost $7500.00, and I sweat out the same exams
    > the IT people do, except they have an advantage, they work
    > in it all the time. Due to the improved nature of the 2000
    > exams, and beta testing for question weight, I must
    > simulate the thinking of someone who has worked in it a
    > year. Why is that something to look down on someone for?
    >
    > Please don't just blast me for this and waste this thread,
    > I'd like to find out if there are any real reasons, and
    > what they are.
    Diana Myers, Aug 1, 2003
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. I live in Las Vegas too. :)

    "Diana Myers" <> wrote in message
    news:%...
    > To me a "paper MCSE" is a person that only studyed/retained information

    long
    > enough to pass the exam, used any and all methods that could be found to
    > help with passing the exam including cheating and aquiring knowledge from
    > others. A "paper MCSE" doesn't have the skills or knowledge to work in

    the
    > real world of IT. I'm an IT Consultant working in Las Vegas and I spend
    > most of my days going into different businesses fixing problems that their
    > "paper MCSE" created and can not figure out how to fix. From an IT
    > Consultant's view point I both like/hate the "paper MCSE". Like them
    > because thanks to them my consulting fees just keep rolling in and hate

    them
    > because they make it hard for those of us that really do have the skills

    and
    > knowledge to do the job needed. Because of the "paper MCSE" too many
    > business are starting to question if IT personnel can REALLY do the jobs
    > that are needing to be filled. Also from an IT Consultant's stand point

    too
    > many clients question your skills and knowledge based on the fact that

    their
    > so called qualified "paper MCSE" doesn't know what they are doing. And as
    > stated in another reply to this posting the "paper MCSEs" are causing the
    > salaries to drastically go down. I have over 15 years experience along

    with
    > my certification; however a year ago I was offered an administrators
    > position starting at $25,000 per year, what a joke. Check out the job
    > postings in Las Vegas and you'll find that the cocktail waitresses in the
    > casinos can make more than IT personnel. It's not unusual to find

    postings
    > for IT jobs starting at $7.50 per hour.
    >
    > I'm not saying that I don't welcome new MCSEs; however I think that people
    > that work in the IT field or want to work in the field need to start
    > thinking of the ramifications of the "paper MCSE" and how we can protect
    > ourselves both now and in the future. Also the "newbies" to the IT field
    > need to remember that those bill salaries do not come over night, but only
    > after working hard and working your way up the latter. Don't expect to

    get
    > your MCSE and then start at the top. Just remember that some of us have
    > worked hard for years to get to the top. We also have a wealth of

    knowledge
    > that we can share with you; however getting us to share our knowledge

    won't
    > be easy if you come in with your "paper MCSE" and act like you know it

    all.
    >
    > Diana Myers
    >
    >
    > "znakomi" <> wrote in message
    > news:059001c357a3$3d90a040$...
    > > I'm looking for opinions from folks who look down on paper
    > > certs. I've been trying to think of reasons why someone
    > > would look down on them, but I'm coming up empty. I have
    > > heard it about how much damage they do, and how some
    > > people who study for them should almost be looked down on
    > > for doing something "wrong". But I havent heard the
    > > reasons why it is wrong to study for MCSE for people who
    > > don't already work in IT.
    > >
    > > I like my job, and it's not IT, (engineer in digital
    > > imaging equipment). I would venture to say that if a great
    > > IT person came up to me and said he had another passion of
    > > digital image processing, and he went to school for it
    > > even though he may never work in it...I'd say "great, you
    > > like Heiniken?". Why would I say anything else?
    > >
    > > The world is always changing, and even though I've worked
    > > for this behemoth since some of the naysayers were in
    > > diapers...downsizing is a reality. MCSE is interesting, it
    > > skirts my job, and I could be laid off someday. Nice if I
    > > could get my foot in the door and try this path if I
    > > wanted to. I went for an interview last year for just for
    > > the heck of it, (first interview in 15 + years). I had no
    > > intention for the job, but I wanted to see if I'd get an
    > > offer...which I did for twenty five an hour, (nowhere near
    > > enough to derail me). But it was worth my effort, and I
    > > wouldn't have gotten the offer without my paper cert.
    > >
    > > Besides, this stuff is fun, and it gives me excuses to
    > > have all these computers around the house.
    > >
    > > Now I fully agree with naysayers who get down on people
    > > who cheat. I don't cheat, (the only justice there is the
    > > cheaters know how they are, worthless).
    > >
    > > So, please tell me the reasons why we must look down on
    > > people like me with my nasty paper certificate. Why I was
    > > wrong to do what I did.
    > >
    > > My school cost $7500.00, and I sweat out the same exams
    > > the IT people do, except they have an advantage, they work
    > > in it all the time. Due to the improved nature of the 2000
    > > exams, and beta testing for question weight, I must
    > > simulate the thinking of someone who has worked in it a
    > > year. Why is that something to look down on someone for?
    > >
    > > Please don't just blast me for this and waste this thread,
    > > I'd like to find out if there are any real reasons, and
    > > what they are.

    >
    >
    Clint Kennedy, Aug 1, 2003
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. "Diana Myers" <> wrote in message
    news:%...
    > To me a "paper MCSE" is a person that only studyed/retained information

    long
    > enough to pass the exam, used any and all methods that could be found to
    > help with passing the exam including cheating and aquiring knowledge from
    > others. A "paper MCSE" doesn't have the skills or knowledge to work in

    the
    > real world of IT. I'm an IT Consultant working in Las Vegas and I spend
    > most of my days going into different businesses fixing problems that their
    > "paper MCSE" created and can not figure out how to fix. From an IT
    > Consultant's view point I both like/hate the "paper MCSE". Like them
    > because thanks to them my consulting fees just keep rolling in and hate

    them
    > because they make it hard for those of us that really do have the skills

    and
    > knowledge to do the job needed. Because of the "paper MCSE" too many
    > business are starting to question if IT personnel can REALLY do the jobs
    > that are needing to be filled. Also from an IT Consultant's stand point

    too
    > many clients question your skills and knowledge based on the fact that

    their
    > so called qualified "paper MCSE" doesn't know what they are doing. And as
    > stated in another reply to this posting the "paper MCSEs" are causing the
    > salaries to drastically go down. I have over 15 years experience along

    with
    > my certification; however a year ago I was offered an administrators
    > position starting at $25,000 per year, what a joke. Check out the job
    > postings in Las Vegas and you'll find that the cocktail waitresses in the
    > casinos can make more than IT personnel. It's not unusual to find

    postings
    > for IT jobs starting at $7.50 per hour.
    >
    > I'm not saying that I don't welcome new MCSEs; however I think that people
    > that work in the IT field or want to work in the field need to start
    > thinking of the ramifications of the "paper MCSE" and how we can protect
    > ourselves both now and in the future.


    I say we track them down and kill the, problem solved :)

    > Also the "newbies" to the IT field
    > need to remember that those bill salaries do not come over night, but only
    > after working hard and working your way up the latter. Don't expect to

    get
    > your MCSE and then start at the top. Just remember that some of us have
    > worked hard for years to get to the top. We also have a wealth of

    knowledge
    > that we can share with you; however getting us to share our knowledge

    won't
    > be easy if you come in with your "paper MCSE" and act like you know it

    all.
    >
    > Diana Myers
    >
    >
    > "znakomi" <> wrote in message
    > news:059001c357a3$3d90a040$...
    > > I'm looking for opinions from folks who look down on paper
    > > certs. I've been trying to think of reasons why someone
    > > would look down on them, but I'm coming up empty. I have
    > > heard it about how much damage they do, and how some
    > > people who study for them should almost be looked down on
    > > for doing something "wrong". But I havent heard the
    > > reasons why it is wrong to study for MCSE for people who
    > > don't already work in IT.
    > >
    > > I like my job, and it's not IT, (engineer in digital
    > > imaging equipment). I would venture to say that if a great
    > > IT person came up to me and said he had another passion of
    > > digital image processing, and he went to school for it
    > > even though he may never work in it...I'd say "great, you
    > > like Heiniken?". Why would I say anything else?
    > >
    > > The world is always changing, and even though I've worked
    > > for this behemoth since some of the naysayers were in
    > > diapers...downsizing is a reality. MCSE is interesting, it
    > > skirts my job, and I could be laid off someday. Nice if I
    > > could get my foot in the door and try this path if I
    > > wanted to. I went for an interview last year for just for
    > > the heck of it, (first interview in 15 + years). I had no
    > > intention for the job, but I wanted to see if I'd get an
    > > offer...which I did for twenty five an hour, (nowhere near
    > > enough to derail me). But it was worth my effort, and I
    > > wouldn't have gotten the offer without my paper cert.
    > >
    > > Besides, this stuff is fun, and it gives me excuses to
    > > have all these computers around the house.
    > >
    > > Now I fully agree with naysayers who get down on people
    > > who cheat. I don't cheat, (the only justice there is the
    > > cheaters know how they are, worthless).
    > >
    > > So, please tell me the reasons why we must look down on
    > > people like me with my nasty paper certificate. Why I was
    > > wrong to do what I did.
    > >
    > > My school cost $7500.00, and I sweat out the same exams
    > > the IT people do, except they have an advantage, they work
    > > in it all the time. Due to the improved nature of the 2000
    > > exams, and beta testing for question weight, I must
    > > simulate the thinking of someone who has worked in it a
    > > year. Why is that something to look down on someone for?
    > >
    > > Please don't just blast me for this and waste this thread,
    > > I'd like to find out if there are any real reasons, and
    > > what they are.

    >
    >
    David Maggard, Aug 2, 2003
    #3
  4. I live near las vegas, St George, UT??



    "Clint Kennedy" <> wrote in message
    news:%23%23m$...
    > I live in Las Vegas too. :)
    >
    > "Diana Myers" <> wrote in message
    > news:%...
    > > To me a "paper MCSE" is a person that only studyed/retained information

    > long
    > > enough to pass the exam, used any and all methods that could be found to
    > > help with passing the exam including cheating and aquiring knowledge

    from
    > > others. A "paper MCSE" doesn't have the skills or knowledge to work in

    > the
    > > real world of IT. I'm an IT Consultant working in Las Vegas and I spend
    > > most of my days going into different businesses fixing problems that

    their
    > > "paper MCSE" created and can not figure out how to fix. From an IT
    > > Consultant's view point I both like/hate the "paper MCSE". Like them
    > > because thanks to them my consulting fees just keep rolling in and hate

    > them
    > > because they make it hard for those of us that really do have the skills

    > and
    > > knowledge to do the job needed. Because of the "paper MCSE" too many
    > > business are starting to question if IT personnel can REALLY do the jobs
    > > that are needing to be filled. Also from an IT Consultant's stand point

    > too
    > > many clients question your skills and knowledge based on the fact that

    > their
    > > so called qualified "paper MCSE" doesn't know what they are doing. And

    as
    > > stated in another reply to this posting the "paper MCSEs" are causing

    the
    > > salaries to drastically go down. I have over 15 years experience along

    > with
    > > my certification; however a year ago I was offered an administrators
    > > position starting at $25,000 per year, what a joke. Check out the job
    > > postings in Las Vegas and you'll find that the cocktail waitresses in

    the
    > > casinos can make more than IT personnel. It's not unusual to find

    > postings
    > > for IT jobs starting at $7.50 per hour.
    > >
    > > I'm not saying that I don't welcome new MCSEs; however I think that

    people
    > > that work in the IT field or want to work in the field need to start
    > > thinking of the ramifications of the "paper MCSE" and how we can protect
    > > ourselves both now and in the future. Also the "newbies" to the IT

    field
    > > need to remember that those bill salaries do not come over night, but

    only
    > > after working hard and working your way up the latter. Don't expect to

    > get
    > > your MCSE and then start at the top. Just remember that some of us have
    > > worked hard for years to get to the top. We also have a wealth of

    > knowledge
    > > that we can share with you; however getting us to share our knowledge

    > won't
    > > be easy if you come in with your "paper MCSE" and act like you know it

    > all.
    > >
    > > Diana Myers
    > >
    > >
    > > "znakomi" <> wrote in message
    > > news:059001c357a3$3d90a040$...
    > > > I'm looking for opinions from folks who look down on paper
    > > > certs. I've been trying to think of reasons why someone
    > > > would look down on them, but I'm coming up empty. I have
    > > > heard it about how much damage they do, and how some
    > > > people who study for them should almost be looked down on
    > > > for doing something "wrong". But I havent heard the
    > > > reasons why it is wrong to study for MCSE for people who
    > > > don't already work in IT.
    > > >
    > > > I like my job, and it's not IT, (engineer in digital
    > > > imaging equipment). I would venture to say that if a great
    > > > IT person came up to me and said he had another passion of
    > > > digital image processing, and he went to school for it
    > > > even though he may never work in it...I'd say "great, you
    > > > like Heiniken?". Why would I say anything else?
    > > >
    > > > The world is always changing, and even though I've worked
    > > > for this behemoth since some of the naysayers were in
    > > > diapers...downsizing is a reality. MCSE is interesting, it
    > > > skirts my job, and I could be laid off someday. Nice if I
    > > > could get my foot in the door and try this path if I
    > > > wanted to. I went for an interview last year for just for
    > > > the heck of it, (first interview in 15 + years). I had no
    > > > intention for the job, but I wanted to see if I'd get an
    > > > offer...which I did for twenty five an hour, (nowhere near
    > > > enough to derail me). But it was worth my effort, and I
    > > > wouldn't have gotten the offer without my paper cert.
    > > >
    > > > Besides, this stuff is fun, and it gives me excuses to
    > > > have all these computers around the house.
    > > >
    > > > Now I fully agree with naysayers who get down on people
    > > > who cheat. I don't cheat, (the only justice there is the
    > > > cheaters know how they are, worthless).
    > > >
    > > > So, please tell me the reasons why we must look down on
    > > > people like me with my nasty paper certificate. Why I was
    > > > wrong to do what I did.
    > > >
    > > > My school cost $7500.00, and I sweat out the same exams
    > > > the IT people do, except they have an advantage, they work
    > > > in it all the time. Due to the improved nature of the 2000
    > > > exams, and beta testing for question weight, I must
    > > > simulate the thinking of someone who has worked in it a
    > > > year. Why is that something to look down on someone for?
    > > >
    > > > Please don't just blast me for this and waste this thread,
    > > > I'd like to find out if there are any real reasons, and
    > > > what they are.

    > >
    > >

    >
    >
    David Maggard, Aug 2, 2003
    #4
  5. Diana Myers

    Tom Elliott Guest

    Answer this for me...I was DBA for Verizon's proprietary systems when they
    laid me off last year. My knowledge of Verizon's DB scheme does me no good
    in the real world. I enrolled in a 6 month IT program to build my base
    understanding (no, the school does not offer certs), landed an internship
    for a networking company then became permanent. They laid me off after they
    got their 4th Q results, moved over to a gov't contract migrating GroupWise
    to Exchange, then landed a Network Helpdesk gig with the same company. I am
    MCP on W2K Pro and Server, studying for Network Infrastructure Admin in the
    lab at work and at home. Now I am not looking for the fastest way to
    certify or the $100,000/yr gig immediately, so would all of the papercert
    critics out there classify me as a paper MCP? If so, I am proud to be one.
    I have been working my ass off, putting in hours at the lab and in the
    books. What's the verdict?
    "David Maggard" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > "Diana Myers" <> wrote in message
    > news:%...
    > > To me a "paper MCSE" is a person that only studyed/retained information

    > long
    > > enough to pass the exam, used any and all methods that could be found to
    > > help with passing the exam including cheating and aquiring knowledge

    from
    > > others. A "paper MCSE" doesn't have the skills or knowledge to work in

    > the
    > > real world of IT. I'm an IT Consultant working in Las Vegas and I spend
    > > most of my days going into different businesses fixing problems that

    their
    > > "paper MCSE" created and can not figure out how to fix. From an IT
    > > Consultant's view point I both like/hate the "paper MCSE". Like them
    > > because thanks to them my consulting fees just keep rolling in and hate

    > them
    > > because they make it hard for those of us that really do have the skills

    > and
    > > knowledge to do the job needed. Because of the "paper MCSE" too many
    > > business are starting to question if IT personnel can REALLY do the jobs
    > > that are needing to be filled. Also from an IT Consultant's stand point

    > too
    > > many clients question your skills and knowledge based on the fact that

    > their
    > > so called qualified "paper MCSE" doesn't know what they are doing. And

    as
    > > stated in another reply to this posting the "paper MCSEs" are causing

    the
    > > salaries to drastically go down. I have over 15 years experience along

    > with
    > > my certification; however a year ago I was offered an administrators
    > > position starting at $25,000 per year, what a joke. Check out the job
    > > postings in Las Vegas and you'll find that the cocktail waitresses in

    the
    > > casinos can make more than IT personnel. It's not unusual to find

    > postings
    > > for IT jobs starting at $7.50 per hour.
    > >
    > > I'm not saying that I don't welcome new MCSEs; however I think that

    people
    > > that work in the IT field or want to work in the field need to start
    > > thinking of the ramifications of the "paper MCSE" and how we can protect
    > > ourselves both now and in the future.

    >
    > I say we track them down and kill the, problem solved :)
    >
    > > Also the "newbies" to the IT field
    > > need to remember that those bill salaries do not come over night, but

    only
    > > after working hard and working your way up the latter. Don't expect to

    > get
    > > your MCSE and then start at the top. Just remember that some of us have
    > > worked hard for years to get to the top. We also have a wealth of

    > knowledge
    > > that we can share with you; however getting us to share our knowledge

    > won't
    > > be easy if you come in with your "paper MCSE" and act like you know it

    > all.
    > >
    > > Diana Myers
    > >
    > >
    > > "znakomi" <> wrote in message
    > > news:059001c357a3$3d90a040$...
    > > > I'm looking for opinions from folks who look down on paper
    > > > certs. I've been trying to think of reasons why someone
    > > > would look down on them, but I'm coming up empty. I have
    > > > heard it about how much damage they do, and how some
    > > > people who study for them should almost be looked down on
    > > > for doing something "wrong". But I havent heard the
    > > > reasons why it is wrong to study for MCSE for people who
    > > > don't already work in IT.
    > > >
    > > > I like my job, and it's not IT, (engineer in digital
    > > > imaging equipment). I would venture to say that if a great
    > > > IT person came up to me and said he had another passion of
    > > > digital image processing, and he went to school for it
    > > > even though he may never work in it...I'd say "great, you
    > > > like Heiniken?". Why would I say anything else?
    > > >
    > > > The world is always changing, and even though I've worked
    > > > for this behemoth since some of the naysayers were in
    > > > diapers...downsizing is a reality. MCSE is interesting, it
    > > > skirts my job, and I could be laid off someday. Nice if I
    > > > could get my foot in the door and try this path if I
    > > > wanted to. I went for an interview last year for just for
    > > > the heck of it, (first interview in 15 + years). I had no
    > > > intention for the job, but I wanted to see if I'd get an
    > > > offer...which I did for twenty five an hour, (nowhere near
    > > > enough to derail me). But it was worth my effort, and I
    > > > wouldn't have gotten the offer without my paper cert.
    > > >
    > > > Besides, this stuff is fun, and it gives me excuses to
    > > > have all these computers around the house.
    > > >
    > > > Now I fully agree with naysayers who get down on people
    > > > who cheat. I don't cheat, (the only justice there is the
    > > > cheaters know how they are, worthless).
    > > >
    > > > So, please tell me the reasons why we must look down on
    > > > people like me with my nasty paper certificate. Why I was
    > > > wrong to do what I did.
    > > >
    > > > My school cost $7500.00, and I sweat out the same exams
    > > > the IT people do, except they have an advantage, they work
    > > > in it all the time. Due to the improved nature of the 2000
    > > > exams, and beta testing for question weight, I must
    > > > simulate the thinking of someone who has worked in it a
    > > > year. Why is that something to look down on someone for?
    > > >
    > > > Please don't just blast me for this and waste this thread,
    > > > I'd like to find out if there are any real reasons, and
    > > > what they are.

    > >
    > >

    >
    >
    Tom Elliott, Aug 10, 2003
    #5
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