Re: Olympus's u4/3rds should nail a few P&S coffins

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Paul Furman, Dec 10, 2008.

  1. Paul Furman

    Paul Furman Guest

    RichA wrote:
    > If Olympus sticks to the plan and releases them as they appeared at
    > Photokina, they should kill off a few overpriced short zoom P&Ss, like the
    > LX3 and others like it.


    I looked at the comparable Leica in a store (couldn't find the cheaper
    knock-off to handle) and it is darn small. Fits real comfortable in a
    shirt pocket, the micro 4/3 won't be nearly that small will it?


    > There will likely always be a place for hulking
    > bridge cameras (though I don't know why anyone would buy a camera like the
    > Fuji s100fs) but compacts will change radically once a 4/3rds (or larger?)
    > sensor comes in them, Sigma's DP-1, notwithstanding. It is even probably
    > they could create a very compact (but slow) 3x zoom that would allow
    > P&Shooters to keep the pocketabililty they value. But, if someone wants to
    > add a real telephoto, they'll be able to instead of trying to cobble on one
    > of those worthless screw-on telephoto attachments.
    >
    >
    >



    --
    Paul Furman
    www.edgehill.net
    www.baynatives.com

    all google groups messages filtered due to spam
     
    Paul Furman, Dec 10, 2008
    #1
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  2. Paul Furman

    Mark Thomas Guest

    Paul Furman wrote:
    > RichA wrote:
    >> If Olympus sticks to the plan and releases them as they appeared at
    >> Photokina, they should kill off a few overpriced short zoom P&Ss, like
    >> the LX3 and others like it.

    >
    > I looked at the comparable Leica in a store (couldn't find the cheaper
    > knock-off to handle) and it is darn small. Fits real comfortable in a
    > shirt pocket, the micro 4/3 won't be nearly that small will it?
    >

    - which comparable Leica was it? There are these concept camera shots
    to give you a guide...
    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3031/2896351998_cfc86cf46b.jpg?v=0
    http://www.photographion.com/wp-con...st-micro-four-thirds-camera-body-photo-02.jpg
     
    Mark Thomas, Dec 10, 2008
    #2
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  3. Paul Furman

    Paul Furman Guest

    Mark Thomas wrote:
    > Paul Furman wrote:
    >> RichA wrote:
    >>> If Olympus sticks to the plan and releases them as they appeared at
    >>> Photokina, they should kill off a few overpriced short zoom P&Ss,
    >>> like the LX3 and others like it.

    >>
    >> I looked at the comparable Leica in a store (couldn't find the cheaper
    >> knock-off to handle) and it is darn small. Fits real comfortable in a
    >> shirt pocket, the micro 4/3 won't be nearly that small will it?
    >>

    > - which comparable Leica was it? There are these concept camera shots
    > to give you a guide...
    > http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3031/2896351998_cfc86cf46b.jpg?v=0
    > http://www.photographion.com/wp-con...st-micro-four-thirds-camera-body-photo-02.jpg


    Those are probably more the size of a Leica M8, no?
    Leica D-LUX 4 is what I handled. It's tiny.
    Ricoh Caplio GX200 is the knock-off.
    -the EVF attachment might be nice but $$$
    Panasonic LX3 is probably what I'll get, no rush. Wide angle fast lens,
    fits in a pocket easily, though I can't find one in a store to look at.

    --
    Paul Furman
    www.edgehill.net
    www.baynatives.com

    all google groups messages filtered due to spam
     
    Paul Furman, Dec 10, 2008
    #3
  4. Paul Furman

    dj_nme Guest

    Paul Furman wrote:
    > Mark Thomas wrote:
    >> Paul Furman wrote:
    >>> RichA wrote:
    >>>> If Olympus sticks to the plan and releases them as they appeared at
    >>>> Photokina, they should kill off a few overpriced short zoom P&Ss,
    >>>> like the LX3 and others like it.
    >>>
    >>> I looked at the comparable Leica in a store (couldn't find the
    >>> cheaper knock-off to handle) and it is darn small. Fits real
    >>> comfortable in a shirt pocket, the micro 4/3 won't be nearly that
    >>> small will it?
    >>>

    >> - which comparable Leica was it? There are these concept camera
    >> shots to give you a guide...
    >> http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3031/2896351998_cfc86cf46b.jpg?v=0
    >> http://www.photographion.com/wp-con...st-micro-four-thirds-camera-body-photo-02.jpg

    >
    >
    > Those are probably more the size of a Leica M8, no?
    > Leica D-LUX 4 is what I handled. It's tiny.
    > Ricoh Caplio GX200 is the knock-off.


    That's the "updated" version (12.1MP rather than 10MP) of the GX-100,
    which was released 18 months before the D-Lux 4 and 16 months before the
    Panasonic LX3 on which it's based.

    > -the EVF attachment might be nice but $$$


    I don't believe that the accessory EVF (VF-1) is really worth the premium.
    I have a Ricoh GX-100 and the accessory EVF.
    The eyepiece on the VF-1 is a bit small, so it's nowhere near as nice as
    the built-in EVF found on most of the "bridge" (faux-slr) digicams and
    wouldn't be very useful if you wear glasses (too much of the edge all
    around the LCD inside the EVF would be blocked).
    I find that the VF-1 is best used when there is bright light coming from
    behind and above, such as a sunny day which might make the image on the
    rear-panel LCD difficult to make out.

    > Panasonic LX3 is probably what I'll get, no rush. Wide angle fast lens,
    > fits in a pocket easily, though I can't find one in a store to look at.


    The Ricoh GX100 or GX200 (if you can find them in the USA) would be just
    as nice, if not slightly better as the lens goes slightly longer for a
    3x zoom range and if you really want one, there is an accessory EVF (the
    VF-1).

    To be perfectly honest:
    I really don't believe that the mu4/3 cameras will knock out the
    super-zoom EVF digicams unless they are similarly priced and the
    short-zoom compact doesn't seem to be in much danger for the same reason.
    Panasonic is pricing the DMC-G1 at roughly the same price-point as the
    entry-level DSLR cameras from Pentax, Canon, Nikon and Sony.
    If the EVF in the DMC-G1 isn't the 1.4mp model that was on the
    pre-production model which was reviewed by depreview.com a customer just
    looking through the VF on any of the DSLR cameras and comparing it the
    DMC-G1, the DMC-G1 will lose out and stay on the shelf.
     
    dj_nme, Dec 11, 2008
    #4
  5. Paul Furman

    Mark Thomas Guest

    Paul Furman wrote:
    > Mark Thomas wrote:
    >> Paul Furman wrote:
    >>> RichA wrote:
    >>>> If Olympus sticks to the plan and releases them as they appeared at
    >>>> Photokina, they should kill off a few overpriced short zoom P&Ss,
    >>>> like the LX3 and others like it.
    >>>
    >>> I looked at the comparable Leica in a store (couldn't find the
    >>> cheaper knock-off to handle) and it is darn small. Fits real
    >>> comfortable in a shirt pocket, the micro 4/3 won't be nearly that
    >>> small will it?
    >>>

    >> - which comparable Leica was it? There are these concept camera
    >> shots to give you a guide...
    >> http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3031/2896351998_cfc86cf46b.jpg?v=0
    >> http://www.photographion.com/wp-con...st-micro-four-thirds-camera-body-photo-02.jpg

    >
    > Those are probably more the size of a Leica M8, no?

    Yes... because...

    > Leica D-LUX 4 is what I handled. It's tiny.

    It would be. It doesn't have an interchangable lens, which is pretty
    much the whole point of the m4/3 format.. IIRC, the D-Lux 3 is a
    comparable (and much larger) camera.

    > Panasonic LX3 is probably what I'll get, no rush. Wide angle fast lens,
    > fits in a pocket easily, though I can't find one in a store to look at.

    Good choice by all accounts.
     
    Mark Thomas, Dec 11, 2008
    #5
  6. Paul Furman

    Paul Furman Guest

    dj_nme wrote:
    > Paul Furman wrote:
    >> Mark Thomas wrote:
    >>> Paul Furman wrote:
    >>>> RichA wrote:
    >>>>> If Olympus sticks to the plan and releases them as they appeared at
    >>>>> Photokina, they should kill off a few overpriced short zoom P&Ss,
    >>>>> like the LX3 and others like it.
    >>>>
    >>>> I looked at the comparable Leica in a store (couldn't find the
    >>>> cheaper knock-off to handle) and it is darn small. Fits real
    >>>> comfortable in a shirt pocket, the micro 4/3 won't be nearly that
    >>>> small will it?
    >>>>
    >>> - which comparable Leica was it? There are these concept camera
    >>> shots to give you a guide...
    >>> http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3031/2896351998_cfc86cf46b.jpg?v=0
    >>> http://www.photographion.com/wp-con...st-micro-four-thirds-camera-body-photo-02.jpg

    >>
    >> Those are probably more the size of a Leica M8, no?
    >> Leica D-LUX 4 is what I handled. It's tiny.
    >> Ricoh Caplio GX200 is the knock-off.

    >
    > That's the "updated" version


    Thanks for your observations about them.


    >> -the EVF attachment might be nice but $$$

    >
    > I don't believe that the accessory EVF (VF-1) is really worth the premium.
    > I have a Ricoh GX-100 and the accessory EVF.
    > The eyepiece on the VF-1 is a bit small, so it's nowhere near as nice as
    > the built-in EVF found on most of the "bridge" (faux-slr) digicams and
    > wouldn't be very useful if you wear glasses (too much of the edge all
    > around the LCD inside the EVF would be blocked).
    > I find that the VF-1 is best used when there is bright light coming from
    > behind and above, such as a sunny day which might make the image on the
    > rear-panel LCD difficult to make out.
    >
    >> Panasonic LX3 is probably what I'll get, no rush. Wide angle fast
    >> lens, fits in a pocket easily, though I can't find one in a store to
    >> look at.

    >
    > The Ricoh GX100 or GX200 (if you can find them in the USA) would be just
    > as nice, if not slightly better as the lens goes slightly longer for a
    > 3x zoom range and if you really want one, there is an accessory EVF (the
    > VF-1).
    >
    > To be perfectly honest:
    > I really don't believe that the mu4/3 cameras will knock out the
    > super-zoom EVF digicams unless they are similarly priced and the
    > short-zoom compact doesn't seem to be in much danger for the same reason.


    I don't think micro 4/3 would be able to fit in my pocket like these
    models so it won't appeal to me as a portable alternate to my DSLRs. I
    guess maybe OK for a jacket pocket.


    > Panasonic is pricing the DMC-G1 at roughly the same price-point as the
    > entry-level DSLR cameras from Pentax, Canon, Nikon and Sony.
    > If the EVF in the DMC-G1 isn't the 1.4mp model that was on the
    > pre-production model which was reviewed by depreview.com a customer just
    > looking through the VF on any of the DSLR cameras and comparing it the
    > DMC-G1, the DMC-G1 will lose out and stay on the shelf.



    --
    Paul Furman
    www.edgehill.net
    www.baynatives.com

    all google groups messages filtered due to spam
     
    Paul Furman, Dec 11, 2008
    #6
  7. Paul Furman

    dj_nme Guest

    Paul Furman wrote:
    > dj_nme wrote:
    >> Paul Furman wrote:
    >>> Mark Thomas wrote:
    >>>> Paul Furman wrote:
    >>>>> RichA wrote:
    >>>>>> If Olympus sticks to the plan and releases them as they appeared
    >>>>>> at Photokina, they should kill off a few overpriced short zoom
    >>>>>> P&Ss, like the LX3 and others like it.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> I looked at the comparable Leica in a store (couldn't find the
    >>>>> cheaper knock-off to handle) and it is darn small. Fits real
    >>>>> comfortable in a shirt pocket, the micro 4/3 won't be nearly that
    >>>>> small will it?
    >>>>>
    >>>> - which comparable Leica was it? There are these concept camera
    >>>> shots to give you a guide...
    >>>> http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3031/2896351998_cfc86cf46b.jpg?v=0
    >>>> http://www.photographion.com/wp-con...st-micro-four-thirds-camera-body-photo-02.jpg
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Those are probably more the size of a Leica M8, no?
    >>> Leica D-LUX 4 is what I handled. It's tiny.
    >>> Ricoh Caplio GX200 is the knock-off.

    >>
    >> That's the "updated" version

    >
    > Thanks for your observations about them.


    The fact remains that the design you claim is a "knock off" preceded it
    by a year and a half.

    >>> -the EVF attachment might be nice but $$$

    >>
    >> I don't believe that the accessory EVF (VF-1) is really worth the
    >> premium.
    >> I have a Ricoh GX-100 and the accessory EVF.
    >> The eyepiece on the VF-1 is a bit small, so it's nowhere near as nice
    >> as the built-in EVF found on most of the "bridge" (faux-slr) digicams
    >> and wouldn't be very useful if you wear glasses (too much of the edge
    >> all around the LCD inside the EVF would be blocked).
    >> I find that the VF-1 is best used when there is bright light coming
    >> from behind and above, such as a sunny day which might make the image
    >> on the rear-panel LCD difficult to make out.
    >>
    >>> Panasonic LX3 is probably what I'll get, no rush. Wide angle fast
    >>> lens, fits in a pocket easily, though I can't find one in a store to
    >>> look at.

    >>
    >> The Ricoh GX100 or GX200 (if you can find them in the USA) would be
    >> just as nice, if not slightly better as the lens goes slightly longer
    >> for a 3x zoom range and if you really want one, there is an accessory
    >> EVF (the VF-1).
    >>
    >> To be perfectly honest:
    >> I really don't believe that the mu4/3 cameras will knock out the
    >> super-zoom EVF digicams unless they are similarly priced and the
    >> short-zoom compact doesn't seem to be in much danger for the same reason.

    >
    > I don't think micro 4/3 would be able to fit in my pocket like these
    > models so it won't appeal to me as a portable alternate to my DSLRs. I
    > guess maybe OK for a jacket pocket.


    I'm pretty sure that you're correct.
    Except maybe if you can get a production version of the mock-up Olympus
    displayed at Fotokina and only want a wide angle prime lens which has
    most of the lens hidden in of the body of the camera.
    Something similar in overall design as the 2.8cm Biogon, where the only
    bits sticking out the front of the body are the focus and aperture rings.
     
    dj_nme, Dec 11, 2008
    #7
  8. Paul Furman

    Paul Furman Guest

    dj_nme wrote:
    > Paul Furman wrote:
    >> dj_nme wrote:
    >>> Paul Furman wrote:
    >>>> Mark Thomas wrote:
    >>>>> Paul Furman wrote:
    >>>>>> RichA wrote:
    >>>>>>> If Olympus sticks to the plan and releases them as they appeared
    >>>>>>> at Photokina, they should kill off a few overpriced short zoom
    >>>>>>> P&Ss, like the LX3 and others like it.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> I looked at the comparable Leica in a store (couldn't find the
    >>>>>> cheaper knock-off to handle) and it is darn small. Fits real
    >>>>>> comfortable in a shirt pocket, the micro 4/3 won't be nearly that
    >>>>>> small will it?
    >>>>>>
    >>>>> - which comparable Leica was it? There are these concept camera
    >>>>> shots to give you a guide...
    >>>>> http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3031/2896351998_cfc86cf46b.jpg?v=0
    >>>>> http://www.photographion.com/wp-con...st-micro-four-thirds-camera-body-photo-02.jpg
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> Those are probably more the size of a Leica M8, no?
    >>>> Leica D-LUX 4 is what I handled. It's tiny.
    >>>> Ricoh Caplio GX200 is the knock-off.
    >>>
    >>> That's the "updated" version

    >>
    >> Thanks for your observations about them.

    >
    > The fact remains that the design you claim is a "knock off" preceded it
    > by a year and a half.


    Understood. Badly worded on my part.


    >>>> -the EVF attachment might be nice but $$$
    >>>
    >>> I don't believe that the accessory EVF (VF-1) is really worth the
    >>> premium.
    >>> I have a Ricoh GX-100 and the accessory EVF.
    >>> The eyepiece on the VF-1 is a bit small, so it's nowhere near as nice
    >>> as the built-in EVF found on most of the "bridge" (faux-slr) digicams
    >>> and wouldn't be very useful if you wear glasses (too much of the edge
    >>> all around the LCD inside the EVF would be blocked).
    >>> I find that the VF-1 is best used when there is bright light coming
    >>> from behind and above, such as a sunny day which might make the image
    >>> on the rear-panel LCD difficult to make out.
    >>>
    >>>> Panasonic LX3 is probably what I'll get, no rush. Wide angle fast
    >>>> lens, fits in a pocket easily, though I can't find one in a store to
    >>>> look at.
    >>>
    >>> The Ricoh GX100 or GX200 (if you can find them in the USA) would be
    >>> just as nice, if not slightly better as the lens goes slightly longer
    >>> for a 3x zoom range and if you really want one, there is an accessory
    >>> EVF (the VF-1).
    >>>
    >>> To be perfectly honest:
    >>> I really don't believe that the mu4/3 cameras will knock out the
    >>> super-zoom EVF digicams unless they are similarly priced and the
    >>> short-zoom compact doesn't seem to be in much danger for the same
    >>> reason.

    >>
    >> I don't think micro 4/3 would be able to fit in my pocket like these
    >> models so it won't appeal to me as a portable alternate to my DSLRs. I
    >> guess maybe OK for a jacket pocket.

    >
    > I'm pretty sure that you're correct.
    > Except maybe if you can get a production version of the mock-up Olympus
    > displayed at Fotokina and only want a wide angle prime lens which has
    > most of the lens hidden in of the body of the camera.
    > Something similar in overall design as the 2.8cm Biogon, where the only
    > bits sticking out the front of the body are the focus and aperture rings.


    I might like that.
    http://lucifer-doom.blogspot.com/2008/08/micro-43-system.html

    --
    Paul Furman
    www.edgehill.net
    www.baynatives.com

    all google groups messages filtered due to spam
     
    Paul Furman, Dec 11, 2008
    #8
  9. Paul Furman

    dj_nme Guest

    Paul Furman wrote:
    <big snip>
    >>> I don't think micro 4/3 would be able to fit in my pocket like these
    >>> models so it won't appeal to me as a portable alternate to my DSLRs.
    >>> I guess maybe OK for a jacket pocket.

    >>
    >> I'm pretty sure that you're correct.
    >> Except maybe if you can get a production version of the mock-up
    >> Olympus displayed at Fotokina and only want a wide angle prime lens
    >> which has most of the lens hidden in of the body of the camera.
    >> Something similar in overall design as the 2.8cm Biogon, where the
    >> only bits sticking out the front of the body are the focus and
    >> aperture rings.

    >
    > I might like that.
    > http://lucifer-doom.blogspot.com/2008/08/micro-43-system.html


    So, with the proposed new mu4/3 40-150mm zoom it will (by guestimation
    from the side-by-side photo) be roughly 15mm smaller from front element
    to the rear panel of the body?
    My guestimation is based on the 10mm shorter flange-to-sensor and the
    new lens (or at least the wooden mock-up) being about 5mm shorter than
    the 4/3 version.
    Not a great gain (loss?) in size, but I wonder if they're imposing the
    "telecentricity" requirement on the new mu4/3 lenses?
    It certainly seemed to lead towards some rather bulky lenses for 4/3:
    the 25mm f1:1.4 "normal" lens made by Leica seems like a huge monster
    compared to most of the FF/APS-c (D)SLR camera 50mm f1:1.4 lenses.
     
    dj_nme, Dec 11, 2008
    #9
  10. Paul Furman

    Paul Furman Guest

    dj_nme wrote:
    > Paul Furman wrote:
    > <big snip>
    >>>> I don't think micro 4/3 would be able to fit in my pocket like these
    >>>> models so it won't appeal to me as a portable alternate to my DSLRs.
    >>>> I guess maybe OK for a jacket pocket.
    >>>
    >>> I'm pretty sure that you're correct.
    >>> Except maybe if you can get a production version of the mock-up
    >>> Olympus displayed at Fotokina and only want a wide angle prime lens
    >>> which has most of the lens hidden in of the body of the camera.
    >>> Something similar in overall design as the 2.8cm Biogon, where the
    >>> only bits sticking out the front of the body are the focus and
    >>> aperture rings.

    >>
    >> I might like that.
    >> http://lucifer-doom.blogspot.com/2008/08/micro-43-system.html

    >
    > So, with the proposed new mu4/3 40-150mm zoom it will (by guestimation
    > from the side-by-side photo) be roughly 15mm smaller from front element
    > to the rear panel of the body?
    > My guestimation is based on the 10mm shorter flange-to-sensor and the
    > new lens (or at least the wooden mock-up) being about 5mm shorter than
    > the 4/3 version.
    > Not a great gain (loss?) in size, but I wonder if they're imposing the
    > "telecentricity" requirement on the new mu4/3 lenses?
    > It certainly seemed to lead towards some rather bulky lenses for 4/3:
    > the 25mm f1:1.4 "normal" lens made by Leica seems like a huge monster
    > compared to most of the FF/APS-c (D)SLR camera 50mm f1:1.4 lenses.


    That looks nice:
    http://fourthirds-user.com/galleries/showphoto.php/photo/895/size/big/cat/
    http://www.dpreview.com/news/0703/07030703leica50mmsumm.asp
    but yeah it's not compact and you could outfit an entry level APS DSLR
    with a (comparable?) sigma 30mm f/1.4 for less $ & not that much size
    difference, which is why the LX-3 is more appealing with 24-60mm f/2-2.8
    and fits in my shirt pocket for $420. Even if micro 4/3 had a 28mm eq.
    f/2.8 pancake lens I would hesitate to spend $1000 on it.

    --
    Paul Furman
    www.edgehill.net
    www.baynatives.com

    all google groups messages filtered due to spam
     
    Paul Furman, Dec 11, 2008
    #10
  11. Paul Furman

    dj_nme Guest

    Paul Furman wrote:
    > dj_nme wrote:

    <snip>
    >> I wonder if they're imposing the
    >> "telecentricity" requirement on the new mu4/3 lenses?
    >> It certainly seemed to lead towards some rather bulky lenses for 4/3:
    >> the 25mm f1:1.4 "normal" lens made by Leica seems like a huge monster
    >> compared to most of the FF/APS-c (D)SLR camera 50mm f1:1.4 lenses.

    >
    > That looks nice:
    > http://fourthirds-user.com/galleries/showphoto.php/photo/895/size/big/cat/
    > http://www.dpreview.com/news/0703/07030703leica50mmsumm.asp
    > but yeah it's not compact and you could outfit an entry level APS DSLR
    > with a (comparable?) sigma 30mm f/1.4 for less $ & not that much size
    > difference, which is why the LX-3 is more appealing with 24-60mm f/2-2.8
    > and fits in my shirt pocket for $420. Even if micro 4/3 had a 28mm eq.
    > f/2.8 pancake lens I would hesitate to spend $1000 on it.


    I think that's the problem that mu4/3 will face and I really can't see
    any way out of this for Panasonic and Olympus.
    Unless they severely cut the RRP to really compete with high-end
    compacts, or at least low-end DSLR cameras.
     
    dj_nme, Dec 12, 2008
    #11
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