Re: Nikon D800 or D800e - which one to choose?

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Bruce, Mar 16, 2012.

  1. Bruce

    Bruce Guest

    "David J Taylor" <> wrote:
    >From Luminous Landscape,
    >
    > http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/nikon_d800_or_d800e.shtml
    >
    >Worth a read, and seems fair and balanced to me.




    I also find it fair and balanced ...

    .... because, given that the article says exactly what I have been
    saying on this newsgroup for some time, I could hardly disagree with
    anything it said.

    Obviously, those who have been spooked by the online trolls who know
    less than nothing about the practicalities, and argue solely from a
    theoretical standpoint, would be best served by a D800. Then they
    would never have to lose any sleep about the very slight possibility
    of moire. But they would be denying themselves the significant extra
    resolution and detail that the D800E will provide in 995 out of 1000
    shots, just to avoid the risk of moire in the other 5.
    Bruce, Mar 16, 2012
    #1
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  2. Bruce

    Robert Coe Guest

    On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 12:13:26 +0000, Bruce <> wrote:
    : "David J Taylor" <> wrote:
    : >From Luminous Landscape,
    : >
    : > http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/nikon_d800_or_d800e.shtml
    : >
    : >Worth a read, and seems fair and balanced to me.
    :
    :
    :
    : I also find it fair and balanced ...
    :
    : ... because, given that the article says exactly what I have been
    : saying on this newsgroup for some time, I could hardly disagree with
    : anything it said.
    :
    : Obviously, those who have been spooked by the online trolls who know
    : less than nothing about the practicalities, and argue solely from a
    : theoretical standpoint, would be best served by a D800. Then they
    : would never have to lose any sleep about the very slight possibility
    : of moire. But they would be denying themselves the significant extra
    : resolution and detail that the D800E will provide in 995 out of 1000
    : shots, just to avoid the risk of moire in the other 5.

    Buy one of each, and use them interchangeably, unless you're photographing
    repetitive patterns (in which case you should use the D800) or pictures to be
    used on billboards (in which case you should use the D800E).

    If you don't need, or can't afford, or can't be bothered with, two cameras,
    buy a D7000 or its current successor. You'll probably be just as well
    satisfied, and you'll save some money. If you like, you can blow the savings
    on a new speedlight, or a better tripod, or whatever.

    But if you're a professional, a semi-professional, or a very serious amateur,
    you'll need two cameras anyway. The rationalization that your (now) backup
    D700 is just as good if not better because it has bigger pixels, will work for
    at most a few months. And at $3000 each, you probably won't feel that you're
    being robbed. And think of the time you'll save by no longer having to argue
    with the newsgroup's pixel peepers over how many times out of 1000 you'll have
    a shot ruined by moiré patterns. ;^)

    Bob
    Robert Coe, Mar 17, 2012
    #2
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  3. Bruce

    John A. Guest

    On Sat, 17 Mar 2012 10:13:09 -0400, Robert Coe <> wrote:

    >On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 12:13:26 +0000, Bruce <> wrote:
    >: "David J Taylor" <> wrote:
    >: >From Luminous Landscape,
    >: >
    >: > http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/nikon_d800_or_d800e.shtml
    >: >
    >: >Worth a read, and seems fair and balanced to me.
    >:
    >:
    >:
    >: I also find it fair and balanced ...
    >:
    >: ... because, given that the article says exactly what I have been
    >: saying on this newsgroup for some time, I could hardly disagree with
    >: anything it said.
    >:
    >: Obviously, those who have been spooked by the online trolls who know
    >: less than nothing about the practicalities, and argue solely from a
    >: theoretical standpoint, would be best served by a D800. Then they
    >: would never have to lose any sleep about the very slight possibility
    >: of moire. But they would be denying themselves the significant extra
    >: resolution and detail that the D800E will provide in 995 out of 1000
    >: shots, just to avoid the risk of moire in the other 5.
    >
    >Buy one of each, and use them interchangeably, unless you're photographing
    >repetitive patterns (in which case you should use the D800) or pictures to be
    >used on billboards (in which case you should use the D800E).


    If you want, or can afford, one but not both, look into renting them
    both first so you can try them out for yourself with your lenses,
    shooting style, & subject matter. Why argue or theorize and think you
    have the answer when you can test and know?
    John A., Mar 17, 2012
    #3
  4. Bruce

    Bryan Guest

    Re: Nikon D800 or D800e - which one to choose?

    Bruce wrote:
    > Obviously, those who have been spooked by the online trolls who know
    > less than nothing about the practicalities, and argue solely from a
    > theoretical standpoint, would be best served by a D800.  Then they
    > would never have to lose any sleep about the very slight possibility
    > of moire.


    Anyone paying attention could post an equally-valid insult of the
    "trolls" on the other side. Slight as the possibility of Moire may be,
    what is the chance of one's 36MP image being spoiled or rejected
    because of the A.A. filter?

    "Practicalities"? Seriously? The D800(e) isn't for sale yet. None of
    us have any practical experience with a 36MP 36mm sensor (with the
    possible exception of reviewers lurking here).

    -Bryan



     But they would be denying themselves the significant extra
    > resolution and detail that the D800E will provide in 995 out of 1000
    > shots, just to avoid the risk of moire in the other 5.
    Bryan, Mar 18, 2012
    #4
  5. Re: Nikon D800 or D800e - which one to choose?

    On 3/18/2012 4:50 PM, Bryan wrote:

    >
    > "Practicalities"? Seriously? The D800(e) isn't for sale yet. None of
    > us have any practical experience with a 36MP 36mm sensor (with the
    > possible exception of reviewers lurking here).
    >
    > -Bryan
    >


    But we have plenty of experience with crop-sensor
    cameras with essentially the same pixel pitch (with AA filters).
    As far as moire goes, crop or full fame does not matter ...
    just pixel pitch.

    Doug McDonald
    Doug McDonald, Mar 18, 2012
    #5
  6. Bruce

    Bryan Guest

    Re: Nikon D800 or D800e - which one to choose?

    Doug McDonald wrote:
    > But we have plenty of experience with crop-sensor
    > cameras with essentially the same pixel pitch (with AA filters).
    > As far as moire goes, crop or full fame does not matter ...
    > just pixel pitch.


    That's naive in multiple ways. People with crop-sensor cameras do not
    take crop-pictures. They use a shorter focal length to get a roughly
    equivalent angle of view. The detail in an image gets projected on
    fewer sensor cells.

    As resolution increases, chances for moire decrease, because there are
    fewer cases where the lens out-resolves the sensor. On the other hand,
    there is also less loss of resolution from the A.A. filters, because
    the strengths of the filters are tuned to the sensors.

    -Bryan
    Bryan, Mar 19, 2012
    #6
  7. Bruce

    John A. Guest

    Re: Nikon D800 or D800e - which one to choose?

    On Sun, 18 Mar 2012 20:48:04 -0700 (PDT), Bryan
    <> wrote:

    >Doug McDonald wrote:
    >> But we have plenty of experience with crop-sensor
    >> cameras with essentially the same pixel pitch (with AA filters).
    >> As far as moire goes, crop or full fame does not matter ...
    >> just pixel pitch.

    >
    >That's naive in multiple ways. People with crop-sensor cameras do not
    >take crop-pictures. They use a shorter focal length to get a roughly
    >equivalent angle of view. The detail in an image gets projected on
    >fewer sensor cells.
    >
    >As resolution increases, chances for moire decrease, because there are
    >fewer cases where the lens out-resolves the sensor. On the other hand,
    >there is also less loss of resolution from the A.A. filters, because
    >the strengths of the filters are tuned to the sensors.


    Actually, I believe his point is that, with a given lens & focal
    length, a crop sensor with pixel-pitch X will experience the same
    moire (or lack thereof) as a higher-resolution FF sensor with
    pixel-pitch X. And the point of *that* is that it gives us insight
    into what kind of moire to expect from said FF sensor. And it is a
    valid point. Would you expect moire to change in any way if you took a
    shot with said FF sensor and cropped it to the smaller sensor's
    resolution?

    Your counterpoint is valid too. When viewing the whole
    higher-resolution image so as to cover a given angle of your field of
    vision, any moire will be more finely textured and thus more likely to
    blend together into one color in your eye.
    John A., Mar 19, 2012
    #7
  8. Bruce

    Bryan Guest

    Re: Nikon D800 or D800e - which one to choose?

    John A. wrote:
    > Actually, I believe his point is that, with a given lens & focal
    > length, a crop sensor with pixel-pitch X will experience the same
    > moire (or lack thereof) as a higher-resolution FF sensor with
    > pixel-pitch X. And the point of *that* is that it gives us insight
    > into what kind of moire to expect from said FF sensor. And it is a
    > valid point.


    Sure. Theoretical points can be valid, and at present they're all we
    have on this topic.

    > Would you expect moire to change in any way if you took a
    > shot with said FF sensor and cropped it to the smaller sensor's
    > resolution?


    Assuming you crop to keep the center, no. Since lenses tend to resolve
    best in the center of their image circles, I'd say you'd be more
    likely to be keeping areas that show moire than cropping out moire. At
    the edges the sensor is more likely to out-resolve the lens,
    eliminating moire.

    > Your counterpoint is valid too. When viewing the whole
    > higher-resolution image so as to cover a given angle of your field of
    > vision, any moire will be more finely textured and thus more likely to
    > blend together into one color in your eye.


    That's your own point.

    Mostly I think that as sensor resolution increases, the presence or
    absence of an AA filter makes less difference. Sensors will eventually
    out-resolve lenses generally, making the filter both mostly useless
    and mostly harmless.

    -Bryan
    Bryan, Mar 19, 2012
    #8
  9. Bruce

    John A. Guest

    Re: Nikon D800 or D800e - which one to choose?

    On Mon, 19 Mar 2012 05:05:15 -0700 (PDT), Bryan
    <> wrote:

    >John A. wrote:
    >> Actually, I believe his point is that, with a given lens & focal
    >> length, a crop sensor with pixel-pitch X will experience the same
    >> moire (or lack thereof) as a higher-resolution FF sensor with
    >> pixel-pitch X. And the point of *that* is that it gives us insight
    >> into what kind of moire to expect from said FF sensor. And it is a
    >> valid point.

    >
    >Sure. Theoretical points can be valid, and at present they're all we
    >have on this topic.
    >
    >> Would you expect moire to change in any way if you took a
    >> shot with said FF sensor and cropped it to the smaller sensor's
    >> resolution?

    >
    >Assuming you crop to keep the center, no. Since lenses tend to resolve
    >best in the center of their image circles, I'd say you'd be more
    >likely to be keeping areas that show moire than cropping out moire. At
    >the edges the sensor is more likely to out-resolve the lens,
    >eliminating moire.
    >
    >> Your counterpoint is valid too. When viewing the whole
    >> higher-resolution image so as to cover a given angle of your field of
    >> vision, any moire will be more finely textured and thus more likely to
    >> blend together into one color in your eye.

    >
    >That's your own point.
    >
    >Mostly I think that as sensor resolution increases, the presence or
    >absence of an AA filter makes less difference. Sensors will eventually
    >out-resolve lenses generally, making the filter both mostly useless
    >and mostly harmless.


    And they do that via dot-pitch.
    John A., Mar 19, 2012
    #9
  10. Robert Coe <> writes:

    > If you don't need, or can't afford, or can't be bothered with, two cameras,
    > buy a D7000 or its current successor. You'll probably be just as well
    > satisfied, and you'll save some money. If you like, you can blow the savings
    > on a new speedlight, or a better tripod, or whatever.


    DX and FX don't mix that well; a lot of lenses aren't really applicable
    to both (wide to normal). It's nice to have the extra reach on
    telephotos, though.

    > But if you're a professional, a semi-professional, or a very serious amateur,
    > you'll need two cameras anyway.


    I got into that in film cameras in 1982 (two cameras *from the same
    system*; I'd had multiple unrelated cameras earlier). But except for
    some overlap between my D200 and D700, I haven't felt I could afford two
    decent bodies.

    The basic arguments for two bodies were lens changes, film changes, and
    backup. These days zooms are a lot more prevalent, which reduces the
    need for lens changes; and digital doesn't require me to change rolls of
    film to change from color to B&W or low speed to high. (And I do a lot
    less B&W; back then most publications needed B&W, now it's just used for
    artistic purposes.)

    Which leaves backup. I don't do enough even semi-pro work to really
    need backup at my current quality level, and the bodies are so expensive
    these days that I can't really bring myself to own two. My need for
    additional bodies is rather lower, and the cost of having them is rather
    higher.
    --
    David Dyer-Bennet, ; http://dd-b.net/
    Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
    Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/
    Dragaera: http://dragaera.info
    David Dyer-Bennet, Mar 19, 2012
    #10
  11. Re: Nikon D800 or D800e - which one to choose?

    John A. <> writes:

    > On Sun, 18 Mar 2012 20:48:04 -0700 (PDT), Bryan
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >>Doug McDonald wrote:
    >>> But we have plenty of experience with crop-sensor
    >>> cameras with essentially the same pixel pitch (with AA filters).
    >>> As far as moire goes, crop or full fame does not matter ...
    >>> just pixel pitch.

    >>
    >>That's naive in multiple ways. People with crop-sensor cameras do not
    >>take crop-pictures. They use a shorter focal length to get a roughly
    >>equivalent angle of view. The detail in an image gets projected on
    >>fewer sensor cells.
    >>
    >>As resolution increases, chances for moire decrease, because there are
    >>fewer cases where the lens out-resolves the sensor. On the other hand,
    >>there is also less loss of resolution from the A.A. filters, because
    >>the strengths of the filters are tuned to the sensors.

    >
    > Actually, I believe his point is that, with a given lens & focal
    > length, a crop sensor with pixel-pitch X will experience the same
    > moire (or lack thereof) as a higher-resolution FF sensor with
    > pixel-pitch X. And the point of *that* is that it gives us insight
    > into what kind of moire to expect from said FF sensor. And it is a
    > valid point. Would you expect moire to change in any way if you took a
    > shot with said FF sensor and cropped it to the smaller sensor's
    > resolution?


    It's a valid point for constructing tests. It's not a valid point for
    saying "there's no problem because the D7000 has no problem". First,
    there's the focal length issue, you choose differently for DX from FX.
    But, second, and dominating--the D7000 has an AA filter.
    --
    David Dyer-Bennet, ; http://dd-b.net/
    Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
    Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/
    Dragaera: http://dragaera.info
    David Dyer-Bennet, Mar 19, 2012
    #11
  12. Re: Nikon D800 or D800e - which one to choose?

    On 3/18/2012 10:48 PM, Bryan wrote:
    > Doug McDonald wrote:
    >> But we have plenty of experience with crop-sensor
    >> cameras with essentially the same pixel pitch (with AA filters).
    >> As far as moire goes, crop or full fame does not matter ...
    >> just pixel pitch.

    >
    > That's naive in multiple ways. People with crop-sensor cameras do not
    > take crop-pictures. They use a shorter focal length to get a roughly
    > equivalent angle of view. The detail in an image gets projected on
    > fewer sensor cells.
    >
    > As resolution increases, chances for moire decrease, because there are
    > fewer cases where the lens out-resolves the sensor. On the other hand,
    > there is also less loss of resolution from the A.A. filters, because
    > the strengths of the filters are tuned to the sensors.
    >
    > -Bryan


    I was referring to tests of whether lenses are good enough.

    They are.

    Doug McDonald
    Doug McDonald, Mar 19, 2012
    #12
  13. Re: Nikon D800 or D800e - which one to choose?

    "David J. Littleboy" <> writes:

    > "David Dyer-Bennet" <> wrote:
    >>
    >> It's a valid point for constructing tests. It's not a valid point for
    >> saying "there's no problem because the D7000 has no problem". First,
    >> there's the focal length issue, you choose differently for DX from FX.
    >> But, second, and dominating--the D7000 has an AA filter.

    >
    > If you have a D70 lying around, the Nyquist frequency is 2000/(15.5 x 2) =
    > 64 lp/mm. Since the D800E's Nyquist frequency is 100 lp/mm, that means that
    > Moiré with the D800E at f/8 will be somewhat worse than with the D70 at
    > f/12.5. If you find nasty Moiré on the D70 at a given f stop, you'll see
    > worse Moiré on the D800E at that f number divided by 1.56.


    Never had a D70; had a Fuji S2 for that generation (but haven't yet kept
    my previous digital body; sold them for 1/4 and 1/3 original price so
    far).

    What I know is that essentially nobody with a D70 complains about
    getting moire in their pictures; if your figures take into account the
    D70 AA (if not, it's nonsense, so I assume it does).
    --
    David Dyer-Bennet, ; http://dd-b.net/
    Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
    Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/
    Dragaera: http://dragaera.info
    David Dyer-Bennet, Mar 19, 2012
    #13
  14. Bruce

    Me Guest

    Re: Nikon D800 or D800e - which one to choose?

    On 20/03/2012 7:04 a.m., David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
    > "David J. Littleboy"<> writes:
    >
    >> "David Dyer-Bennet"<> wrote:
    >>>
    >>> It's a valid point for constructing tests. It's not a valid point for
    >>> saying "there's no problem because the D7000 has no problem". First,
    >>> there's the focal length issue, you choose differently for DX from FX.
    >>> But, second, and dominating--the D7000 has an AA filter.

    >>
    >> If you have a D70 lying around, the Nyquist frequency is 2000/(15.5 x 2) =
    >> 64 lp/mm. Since the D800E's Nyquist frequency is 100 lp/mm, that means that
    >> Moiré with the D800E at f/8 will be somewhat worse than with the D70 at
    >> f/12.5. If you find nasty Moiré on the D70 at a given f stop, you'll see
    >> worse Moiré on the D800E at that f number divided by 1.56.

    >
    > Never had a D70; had a Fuji S2 for that generation (but haven't yet kept
    > my previous digital body; sold them for 1/4 and 1/3 original price so
    > far).
    >
    > What I know is that essentially nobody with a D70 complains about
    > getting moire in their pictures; if your figures take into account the
    > D70 AA (if not, it's nonsense, so I assume it does).
    >

    I got moire (colour moire) with the D70 I had. It was a serious issue
    if shooting jpeg. Easily fixed when shooting raw (using "colour noise"
    slider in "Raw Shooter" in those days).
    But what wasn't easy to fix was visible aliasing.
    Me, Mar 19, 2012
    #14
  15. Bruce

    Bryan Guest

    Re: Nikon D800 or D800e - which one to choose?

    Doug McDonald wrote:
    > I was referring to tests of whether lenses are good enough.


    And I was referring to what I wrote that I was referring to.

    > They are.


    Great. Much as these groups have suffered from flame-wars, Usenet love-
    fests have been even less productive. I jumped into this thread to
    dispute the characterization: "online trolls who know less than
    nothing about the practicalities, and argue solely from a theoretical
    standpoint, would be best served by a D800".

    Trolls? Seriously? The manufacturers and engineers design and build
    most DSLR's with A.A. filters, and the customers, the photographers,
    tend to buy them that way.

    -Bryan
    Bryan, Mar 20, 2012
    #15
  16. Bruce

    Me Guest

    Re: Nikon D800 or D800e - which one to choose?

    On 20/03/2012 6:12 p.m., Bryan wrote:

    >
    > Trolls? Seriously? The manufacturers and engineers design and build
    > most DSLR's with A.A. filters, and the customers, the photographers,
    > tend to buy them that way.
    >

    And they're all idiots!
    (apparently - by reading some of the comments in this thread - that's
    what some people truly believe)

    Anyway, I've now looked at D800 raw files from Imaging Resource. If you
    open them in Nikon ViewNX, apply sharpening (level 2 out of 10), they're
    as good (detail capture) as the Pentax 645d raw images on that site.
    Now that's not to say that the Pentax 645d images couldn't also be
    improved by using a better optimised raw converter (than ACR), but
    nevertheless, the D800 (not E) has stunning image quality, visibly
    better than any other 35mm format dslr ever made, and even when using a
    lowly (in some people's opinion) Sigma brand lens.
    Me, Mar 20, 2012
    #16
  17. Bruce

    Bryan Guest

    Re: Nikon D800 or D800e - which one to choose?

    David J. Littleboy wrote:
    > If you have a D70 lying around, the Nyquist frequency is 2000/(15.5 x 2) = 64 lp/mm.


    I think I see where you got the numbers, and you divide well enough,
    but you've simplified too far. There is a serious issue, an
    unfortunate interplay, between A.A. filters and mosaic filters.

    An important principle behind the color mosaic filters in digital
    cameras, most notably the Bayer filter, is that luminance can and
    probably should be captured at a higher resolution than chromaticity.
    Human eyes resolve changes between light and dark more finely than
    changes among different colors. The popular image compression
    methods, such as JPEG, take advantage of that fact, and preserver
    luminance where they compress away detailed change of color.

    This is what our friends at Luminous Landscape meant when picking on
    mosaic sensors for suffering loss of detail from A.A. filtering. The
    sensors capture brightness at a higher spacial frequency than they
    capture color. Which frequency defines their Nyquist? There's no right
    answer.

    We don't get to choose how our eyes work. 'Tis as it is. Luminance
    frequency is higher than chrominance frequency. If we cut spacial
    frequencies at the higher luminance Nyquist, then we'll still suffer
    color aliasing. If we cut at the lower chrominance frequency, then we
    lose luminance detail that we could have captured and our eyes could
    have seen.

    -Bryan
    Bryan, Mar 20, 2012
    #17
  18. Bruce

    Bruce Guest

    Robert Coe <> wrote:
    >Buy one of each, and use them interchangeably, unless you're photographing
    >repetitive patterns (in which case you should use the D800) or pictures to be
    >used on billboards (in which case you should use the D800E).
    >
    >If you don't need, or can't afford, or can't be bothered with, two cameras,
    >buy a D7000 or its current successor. You'll probably be just as well
    >satisfied, and you'll save some money. If you like, you can blow the savings
    >on a new speedlight, or a better tripod, or whatever.
    >
    >But if you're a professional, a semi-professional, or a very serious amateur,
    >you'll need two cameras anyway. The rationalization that your (now) backup
    >D700 is just as good if not better because it has bigger pixels, will work for
    >at most a few months. And at $3000 each, you probably won't feel that you're
    >being robbed. And think of the time you'll save by no longer having to argue
    >with the newsgroup's pixel peepers over how many times out of 1000 you'll have
    >a shot ruined by moiré patterns. ;^)



    Perhaps you haven't noticed, Bob, but I'm not entering into any
    arguments with the idiots here. As the saying goes:

    "Don't argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and
    beat you with experience." ;-)
    Bruce, Mar 20, 2012
    #18
  19. Re: Nikon D800 or D800e - which one to choose?

    Bryan <> wrote:

    > Mostly I think that as sensor resolution increases, the presence or
    > absence of an AA filter makes less difference. Sensors will eventually
    > out-resolve lenses generally, making the filter both mostly useless
    > and mostly harmless.


    But that's gonna be several hundreds of megapixels at least
    to guarantee it everywhere.
    And that's not gonna worth it in terms of storage and computing
    power, when it's not offering any better results, not even ---
    especially not --- for the pixel peepers.

    -Wolfgang
    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Mar 22, 2012
    #19
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