Re: New Mamiya 645 may influence DSLR prices

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Alan Browne, Sep 29, 2004.

  1. Alan Browne

    Alan Browne Guest

    deryck lant wrote:

    > The new 22 Meg Mamiya ZD 645 format DSLR with 36x48mm imager is rumoured
    > to sell
    > at around 10K US Dollars:
    >
    > http://www.letsgodigital.org/html/events/PHOTOKINA-2004/news/mamiya/ZD_en.html
    >
    > If so it will dampen down the price of the new 1DsMkII Canon and maybe
    > influence
    > Nikon as well.



    Not sure about the effect on prices for "35mm" format DSLR's, if any.

    However, this announcement is very interesting in its presentation of a body
    with integrated digital _and_ a same spec back for the 645AF series.

    It is odd in that the A/D is 14 bit/chan, saved as 12 bit/chan. While there is
    noise in the bottom end, it seems they are throwing out some detail... (How the
    1Ds Mk II compares in this regard remains unclear ... to date all we've seen
    about it are mentions of processed 24 bit ... 8b/chan no specifics on A/D or
    maximum saveable dynamic (that I've seen)).

    They don't mention the sync speed, probably the ordinary 1/125 of the other
    645AF's (unless a leaf shutter'd lens is used which is not always the case).

    Cheers,
    Alan



    --
    -- rec.photo.equipment.35mm user resource:
    -- http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
    -- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.--
     
    Alan Browne, Sep 29, 2004
    #1
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  2. Alan Browne wrote:
    > deryck lant wrote:
    >
    > > The new 22 Meg Mamiya ZD 645 format DSLR with 36x48mm imager is

    rumoured
    > > to sell
    > > at around 10K US Dollars:
    > >
    > >

    http://www.letsgodigital.org/html/events/PHOTOKINA-2004/news/mamiya/ZD_en.html
    > >
    > > If so it will dampen down the price of the new 1DsMkII Canon and

    maybe
    > > influence
    > > Nikon as well.

    >


    I am a newbie in the world of photography and still have to get my
    first SLR (digi or film) but I read the specs of the Mamiya dSLR and
    couldn't help noticing a few things:
    - the ISO range is 50-400. Even all "35 mm" dSLRs go upto 1600 atleast
    and the mid to high end do 3200.
    - The max shutter speed is 1/4000. Again, most mid to high end SLRs are
    1/8000.
    - Continuous shooting speed is just 1.5fps. Again, this is even slower
    than the Canon 300D. I do realise that its 22MP, so file sizes will be
    big and therefore write times will be higher but someone buying a
    $15-20k camera would expect more. No?
    - MLU is assumed. Right?
    - the specs say nothing about AF (9-point, 35-point etc etc)

    Or maybe there is something about medium format cameras that I just
    don't know.

    Cheers,

    Siddhartha
     
    Siddhartha Jain, Sep 29, 2004
    #2
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  3. Alan Browne

    Chris Brown Guest

    In article <>,
    Siddhartha Jain <> wrote:

    >- Continuous shooting speed is just 1.5fps. Again, this is even slower
    >than the Canon 300D. I do realise that its 22MP, so file sizes will be
    >big and therefore write times will be higher but someone buying a
    >$15-20k camera would expect more. No?


    The main use for high framerates is sports and photojournalism, for which 22
    megapixels is possibly overkill.

    >- the specs say nothing about AF (9-point, 35-point etc etc)


    Manual focus is more common in the medium format world. Where autofocus
    exists, it's generally fairly basic. Both of my medium format cameras are
    manual focus models, and I don't have any direct experience with MF SLRs,
    but I would expect this to be a single-point AF.
     
    Chris Brown, Sep 29, 2004
    #3
  4. Alan Browne

    DLGlos Guest

    On 29 Sep 2004 13:21:52 -0700, "Siddhartha Jain"
    <> wrote:

    >Alan Browne wrote:
    >> deryck lant wrote:
    >>
    >> > The new 22 Meg Mamiya ZD 645 format DSLR with 36x48mm imager is

    >rumoured
    >> > to sell
    >> > at around 10K US Dollars:
    >> >
    >> >

    >http://www.letsgodigital.org/html/events/PHOTOKINA-2004/news/mamiya/ZD_en.html
    >> >
    >> > If so it will dampen down the price of the new 1DsMkII Canon and

    >maybe
    >> > influence
    >> > Nikon as well.

    >>

    >
    >I am a newbie in the world of photography and still have to get my
    >first SLR (digi or film) but I read the specs of the Mamiya dSLR and
    >couldn't help noticing a few things:
    >- the ISO range is 50-400. Even all "35 mm" dSLRs go upto 1600 atleast
    >and the mid to high end do 3200.
    >- The max shutter speed is 1/4000. Again, most mid to high end SLRs are
    >1/8000.
    >- Continuous shooting speed is just 1.5fps. Again, this is even slower
    >than the Canon 300D. I do realise that its 22MP, so file sizes will be
    >big and therefore write times will be higher but someone buying a
    >$15-20k camera would expect more. No?
    >- MLU is assumed. Right?
    >- the specs say nothing about AF (9-point, 35-point etc etc)
    >
    >Or maybe there is something about medium format cameras that I just
    >don't know.
    >
    >Cheers,
    >
    >Siddhartha


    Siddhartha,

    Please don't take this as an insult, but your last sentence is closest
    to the truth. Medium format cameras are far more about resolution and
    tonality rather than speed.

    For a focal plane shutter, the larger image capture area requires a
    larger shutter and heavier shutter leaves, which by merit of basic
    physics will be a bit less responsive. I'm not saying its not useful
    to some, but when is the last time you acutually needed a 1/8000s
    shutter speed.

    Again, the ISO range doesn't seem far off the mark, although wedding
    shooters might find an 800 ISO option useful on location. Dedicated
    portrait and commercial types won't be fazed in the least. Same for
    1.5fps.

    If you need a more responsive camera, buy one of the many fine DSLR's
    with the 35mm, or smaller, chips and be happy. If you have the
    bucks/desire for ultimate image quality, at some expense in handling,
    and of course dollars, then the Mamiya may be your camera.

    While the price is certainly not insignificant, dedicated high end
    types have been buying $15k and up digital backs for their medium
    format cameras for some time. If you can stand the costs and sometimes
    tricky workflow (huge files, tethers, etc.) you will be rewarded with
    some eyepopping quality. If Mamiya can get this one out the door for
    $10k, it will be a new low price point for this level of system.

    If your object doesn't move (studio advertising, graphic arts,
    archiving/documentation, etc.), check out some of the images made with
    scanning backs. DAGS on Better Light.


    David Glos
     
    DLGlos, Sep 29, 2004
    #4
  5. "Alan Browne" <> wrote in message
    news:JBD6d.70$...
    > deryck lant wrote:
    >
    > > The new 22 Meg Mamiya ZD 645 format DSLR with 36x48mm imager is rumoured
    > > to sell
    > > at around 10K US Dollars:
    > >
    > >

    http://www.letsgodigital.org/html/events/PHOTOKINA-2004/news/mamiya/ZD_en.html
    > >
    > > If so it will dampen down the price of the new 1DsMkII Canon and maybe
    > > influence
    > > Nikon as well.

    >
    >
    > Not sure about the effect on prices for "35mm" format DSLR's, if any.
    >

    Sensor prices rely on the economy of scale, if the Mamiya sensor sells in
    volume, whether in a Mamiya, Bronica, Hasselblad, the end result is the
    prices will come down. If this sensor was split in half we would then have
    to 24x36mm sensors. This is a simplistic view, but silicon sort of works
    like that...
     
    ~Darrell Larose~, Sep 30, 2004
    #5
  6. Alan Browne

    jjs Guest

    > The new 22 Meg Mamiya ZD 645 format DSLR with 36x48mm imager is rumoured
    > to sell at around 10K US Dollars:


    Gee, that much money would buy me a year off with film and supplies.
     
    jjs, Sep 30, 2004
    #6
  7. Alan Browne

    Stacey Guest

    Alan Browne wrote:



    >>
    >>

    http://www.letsgodigital.org/html/events/PHOTOKINA-2004/news/mamiya/ZD_en.html
    >>
    >> If so it will dampen down the price of the new 1DsMkII Canon and maybe
    >> influence
    >> Nikon as well.

    >


    As well as making the images taken with those DSLR's look as pathetic as
    35mm images do compared to MF film cameras. Maybe this will shut up some of
    the morons posting the "Dslr's are taking over medformat" garbage that
    get's posted almost daily now in the film newsgroups. Somehow I doubt it
    will.

    --

    Stacey
     
    Stacey, Sep 30, 2004
    #7
  8. Alan Browne

    Bryan Olson Guest

    Stacey wrote:
    > As well as making the images taken with those DSLR's look as pathetic as
    > 35mm images do compared to MF film cameras. Maybe this will shut up

    some of
    > the morons posting the "Dslr's are taking over medformat" garbage that
    > get's posted almost daily now in the film newsgroups.


    This new Mamiya *is* a digital SLR, so I expect it will re-enforce
    the position.


    --
    --Bryan
     
    Bryan Olson, Sep 30, 2004
    #8
  9. Alan Browne

    Steve Hix Guest

    Steve Hix, Sep 30, 2004
    #9
  10. Alan Browne

    Stacey Guest

    Bryan Olson wrote:

    > Stacey wrote:
    > > As well as making the images taken with those DSLR's look as pathetic
    > > as 35mm images do compared to MF film cameras. Maybe this will shut up

    > some of
    > > the morons posting the "Dslr's are taking over medformat" garbage that
    > > get's posted almost daily now in the film newsgroups.

    >
    > This new Mamiya *is* a digital SLR, so I expect it will re-enforce
    > the position.
    >
    >



    Like DUH, I meant the APS size digtial rebel ones people keep bragging
    about.
    --

    Stacey
     
    Stacey, Sep 30, 2004
    #10
  11. Alan Browne

    Bill Hilton Guest

    >From: Steve Hix NVALID
    >
    >According to the article above, 10K *euros*, not dollars. About US$12K.


    Unfortunately Mamiya USA has a stranglehold on the US import market and for
    many products you pay a LOT more in the US than you do in Europe for the same
    item. Often this extra markup is 50%, 80%, even 100% ... one lens for my
    Mamiya 7 system sold for $2,500 at B&H but was available for $1,500 at Robert
    White in England, for example, or a markup of an additional 66%.

    If this trend holds with this new digital camera then it could easily sell for
    quite a bit more than $12,000 US, perhaps closer to $20,000? Won't know until
    we see an actual US list price I guess.

    Bill
     
    Bill Hilton, Sep 30, 2004
    #11
  12. DLGlos wrote:
    > Please don't take this as an insult, but your last sentence is

    closest
    > to the truth. Medium format cameras are far more about resolution and
    > tonality rather than speed.


    No offense taken. That last sentence wasn't in sarcasm but plain
    admittance.

    >
    > For a focal plane shutter, the larger image capture area requires a
    > larger shutter and heavier shutter leaves, which by merit of basic
    > physics will be a bit less responsive. I'm not saying its not useful
    > to some, but when is the last time you acutually needed a 1/8000s
    > shutter speed.

    ..
    ..
    ..
    > If your object doesn't move (studio advertising, graphic arts,
    > archiving/documentation, etc.), check out some of the images made

    with
    > scanning backs. DAGS on Better Light.


    If medium formats are largely used for slow moving/stationary objects
    then that explains a lot.

    Thanks,

    Siddhartha
     
    Siddhartha Jain, Sep 30, 2004
    #12
  13. Alan Browne

    Bryan Olson Guest

    Stacey wrote:
    > Bryan Olson wrote:
    >>Stacey wrote:
    >> > Maybe this will shut up some of the morons posting the "Dslr's
    >> > are taking over medformat" garbage that get's posted almost
    >> > daily now in the film newsgroups.

    >>
    >>This new Mamiya *is* a digital SLR, so I expect it will re-enforce
    >>the position.

    >
    > Like DUH, I meant the APS size digtial rebel ones people keep bragging
    > about.


    Well now, the base of the issue is what the people you call
    "morons" meant. Are they really claiming, "almost daily now"
    that "the APS size digital rebel" cameras "are taking over
    medium format"? I had not seen that.


    --
    --Bryan
     
    Bryan Olson, Sep 30, 2004
    #13
  14. Alan Browne

    Chris Brown Guest

    In article <>,
    Bill Hilton <> wrote:
    >
    >Unfortunately Mamiya USA has a stranglehold on the US import market and for
    >many products you pay a LOT more in the US than you do in Europe for the same
    >item. Often this extra markup is 50%, 80%, even 100% ... one lens for my
    >Mamiya 7 system sold for $2,500 at B&H but was available for $1,500 at Robert
    >White in England, for example, or a markup of an additional 66%.


    It's nice to have it the other way around just this once - we in Europe, and
    especially the UK, usually get outrageously fleeced compared to US prices.
    Allow us our indulgence on this one - it doesn't happen often. ;->
     
    Chris Brown, Sep 30, 2004
    #14
  15. Alan Browne

    DLGlos Guest

    On 30 Sep 2004 05:37:49 GMT, dy (Bill Hilton)
    wrote:

    >>From: Steve Hix NVALID
    >>
    >>According to the article above, 10K *euros*, not dollars. About US$12K.

    >
    >Unfortunately Mamiya USA has a stranglehold on the US import market and for
    >many products you pay a LOT more in the US than you do in Europe for the same
    >item. Often this extra markup is 50%, 80%, even 100% ... one lens for my
    >Mamiya 7 system sold for $2,500 at B&H but was available for $1,500 at Robert
    >White in England, for example, or a markup of an additional 66%.
    >
    >If this trend holds with this new digital camera then it could easily sell for
    >quite a bit more than $12,000 US, perhaps closer to $20,000? Won't know until
    >we see an actual US list price I guess.
    >
    >Bill


    That is precisely the reason I ended up with a couple of non-mamiya
    medium format systems. I openly admired both the RZ and 7, but the
    prices are/were simply insane for what I was doing. Thought about the
    Robert White path, but didn't go there.

    If MAC (Mamiya America Corp) does this their new digital, they may
    never regain any market share. In general, I think the digital
    revolution has lowered the level of imaging quality that the general
    public is willing to accept. Before you jump all over me, I'm not
    saying digital in inheritly worse quality, but in many cases, its
    certainly no better. High end DSLR's, with APS to 35mm sized sensors,
    are pretty much normal in wedding photography today, and it might be a
    tough sell to move up to medium format based DSLR, despite an
    improvement in image quality.

    David Glos
     
    DLGlos, Sep 30, 2004
    #15
  16. Alan Browne

    deryck lant Guest

    The message <>
    from Stacey <> contains these words:

    > Alan Browne wrote:




    > >>
    > >>

    > http://www.letsgodigital.org/html/events/PHOTOKINA-2004/news/mamiya/ZD_en.html
    > >>
    > >> If so it will dampen down the price of the new 1DsMkII Canon and maybe
    > >> influence
    > >> Nikon as well.

    > >


    > As well as making the images taken with those DSLR's look as pathetic as
    > 35mm images do compared to MF film cameras. Maybe this will shut up some of
    > the morons posting the "Dslr's are taking over medformat" garbage that
    > get's posted almost daily now in the film newsgroups. Somehow I doubt it
    > will.


    Brochure:

    http://www.legene.com/planet/mamiya_zd.pdf

    Another Hands On:

    http://pdnonline.com/photodistrictnews/products/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000649384

    Deryck
     
    deryck lant, Sep 30, 2004
    #16
  17. John McWilliams, Sep 30, 2004
    #17
  18. Bryan Olson wrote:

    > Stacey wrote:
    > > Bryan Olson wrote:
    > >>Stacey wrote:
    > >> > Maybe this will shut up some of the morons posting the "Dslr's
    > >> > are taking over medformat" garbage that get's posted almost
    > >> > daily now in the film newsgroups.
    > >>
    > >>This new Mamiya *is* a digital SLR, so I expect it will re-enforce
    > >>the position.

    > >
    > > Like DUH, I meant the APS size digtial rebel ones people keep bragging
    > > about.

    >
    > Well now, the base of the issue is what the people you call
    > "morons" meant. Are they really claiming, "almost daily now"
    > that "the APS size digital rebel" cameras "are taking over
    > medium format"? I had not seen that.
    >

    Nor have I. But the quotient of morons making blanket statements remains
    high.

    --

    John McWilliams
     
    John McWilliams, Sep 30, 2004
    #18
  19. Alan Browne

    Alan Browne Guest

    ~Darrell Larose~ wrote:

    > "Alan Browne" <> wrote in message
    > news:JBD6d.70$...
    >
    >>deryck lant wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>The new 22 Meg Mamiya ZD 645 format DSLR with 36x48mm imager is rumoured
    >>>to sell
    >>>at around 10K US Dollars:
    >>>
    >>>

    >
    > http://www.letsgodigital.org/html/events/PHOTOKINA-2004/news/mamiya/ZD_en.html
    >
    >>>If so it will dampen down the price of the new 1DsMkII Canon and maybe
    >>>influence
    >>>Nikon as well.

    >>
    >>
    >>Not sure about the effect on prices for "35mm" format DSLR's, if any.
    >>

    >
    > Sensor prices rely on the economy of scale, if the Mamiya sensor sells in
    > volume, whether in a Mamiya, Bronica, Hasselblad, the end result is the
    > prices will come down. If this sensor was split in half we would then have
    > to 24x36mm sensors. This is a simplistic view, but silicon sort of works
    > like that...


    The notion is that if a high end camera such as the 645 is at a certain price
    point, then it will have downward pressure on the price point in a different
    class of camera. Since they are different classes of camera and different lens
    systems, etc., there will be 0 effect. Further the pix density of the MF camera
    is less than that of the 'best' 35mm digital ... so really no comparison at all
    at the chip level.

    Cheers,
    Alan

    --
    -- rec.photo.equipment.35mm user resource:
    -- http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
    -- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.--
     
    Alan Browne, Sep 30, 2004
    #19
  20. Alan Browne

    Alan Browne Guest

    Stacey wrote:

    > Alan Browne wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >>>

    > http://www.letsgodigital.org/html/events/PHOTOKINA-2004/news/mamiya/ZD_en.html
    >
    >>>If so it will dampen down the price of the new 1DsMkII Canon and maybe
    >>>influence
    >>>Nikon as well.

    >>


    I wish you would be careful with your snipping. I did NOT write the above, and
    my opinion is actually the contrary.

    >
    > As well as making the images taken with those DSLR's look as pathetic as
    > 35mm images do compared to MF film cameras. Maybe this will shut up some of
    > the morons posting the "Dslr's are taking over medformat" garbage that
    > get's posted almost daily now in the film newsgroups. Somehow I doubt it
    > will.


    Afraid not. While the MF's with 22 MP backs enjoy both more detail and better
    SNR, the gap is narrower with each passing season. A lot of work that is
    currently done on MF can be done just as well on the better 35mm frame digtital
    cameras. Not all, but a lot. See the "encroachment" / 1Ds MkII threads.

    Cheers,
    Alan


    --
    -- rec.photo.equipment.35mm user resource:
    -- http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
    -- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.--
     
    Alan Browne, Sep 30, 2004
    #20
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