Re: Need examples of GOOD Anime

Discussion in 'DVD Video' started by Wade365, Jun 28, 2003.

  1. Wade365

    Wade365 Guest

    << shouldn't, y'know, "Project A-ko" turn up on a few of the Akira
    Brigade's lists? >>

    Someone mentioned it... I love it when this argument comes around because it's
    interesting (even after all these years) to hear people's justifications for
    "Evangelion" and "Akira"... and yes, I own and have sat through them myself
    several times in an attempt to chew the material... finding stuff that actually
    meets with the term "Good Anime" is definitely subjective and I would never
    call the art-house stuff garbage in any respect but to quote another animation
    high-water-mark South Park...

    "I mean, come on..."

    << Wouldn't recommend Excel Saga JUST yet, due to the high concentration of
    jokes you have to have "been there" to get. >>

    Agreed... I just wanted to plant it there for the future because it's an anime
    fan's salvation.

    Derek, even though your detractors are sort of correct in that you haven't
    coughed up some prefs of your own, fight the good fight on behalf of the
    newbs... somebody has to.

    Oh... and F-CK EBERT'S Prototypical Pastey Fanboy -SS!!! He knows SH-T about
    anything... just take his own cinematic efforts into consideration: Russ Meyer
    wasn't a genius, he was a guy who had enough patter in him to get busty chicks
    to shake it topless for him on-camera (the original 'Girls Gone Wild' guy if
    you ask me)... anyone who holds such material as art is in dire need of a
    blowjob... anyone who sits around and "co-writes" a script for such a project
    has obviously NEVER HAD ONE IN HIS LIFE. Fat, sexually retarded turd.

    "Those who CAN, DO... those who CAN'T, become CRITICS."

    (And yes, I understand that with this post I join my ranks of 'critic' in a
    way).

    PS - 'Mononoke' had decent voice acting? Not on THIS side of the ocean, it
    didn't... Billy Bob Thorazine, anyone? Perhaps he could have reviewed the
    script before entering the isolation booth to record... that mighta helped a
    bit.
     
    Wade365, Jun 28, 2003
    #1
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  2. Wade365 wrote:

    > Someone mentioned it... I love it when this argument comes around because it's
    > interesting (even after all these years) to hear people's justifications for
    > "Evangelion" and "Akira"... and yes, I own and have sat through them myself
    > several times in an attempt to chew the material... finding stuff that actually
    > meets with the term "Good Anime" is definitely subjective and I would never
    > call the art-house stuff garbage in any respect but to quote another animation
    > high-water-mark South Park...
    >
    > "I mean, come on..."
    >


    Justifications? Maybe we just like it. Ever think of that? Maybe we
    like movies that give you something to think about, or aren't entirely
    clear and require multiple viewings to fully appreciate.

    > Derek, even though your detractors are sort of correct in that you haven't
    > coughed up some prefs of your own, fight the good fight on behalf of the
    > newbs... somebody has to.
    >


    I'm a newbie, I've seen Vampire Hunter D, Akira, Ghost in the Shell,
    Ninja Scroll, and four Miyazaki films. That's it, so far. Whoever
    Derek's fighting for it isn't for me.

    > "Those who CAN, DO... those who CAN'T, become CRITICS."
    >


    He's the critic I hate the least though. When he's good, he's very
    good. But sometimes I disagree with him so vehemently I want to rip his
    wig off.

    > PS - 'Mononoke' had decent voice acting? Not on THIS side of the ocean, it
    > didn't... Billy Bob Thorazine, anyone? Perhaps he could have reviewed the
    > script before entering the isolation booth to record... that mighta helped a
    > bit.
    >


    Why does everybody criticize the voice acting? Aren't you listening to
    the original Japanese? Sorry, but how can you consider yourself a fan
    if you aren't listening to the original Japanese? :-D

    --
    "It is dark, you are likely to be eaten by a grue."
    --Zork

    Grand Inquisitor
    http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mycollection.asp?alias=Oost
     
    Grand Inquisitor, Jun 28, 2003
    #2
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  3. Wade365

    Wade365 Guest

    << Maybe we
    like movies that give you something to think about, >>

    I'm tempted to quote Woody Allen here but I won't.


    << Whoever
    Derek's fighting for it isn't for me. >>

    Quit taking generalizations made to a newsgroup so literally and/or
    personally...

    << Why does everybody criticize the voice acting? Aren't you listening to
    the original Japanese? Sorry, but how can you consider yourself a fan
    if you aren't listening to the original Japanese? >>

    Should I be reading this in the Comic Book Guy voice?
     
    Wade365, Jun 29, 2003
    #3
  4. "Wade365" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    : << Maybe we
    : like movies that give you something to think about, >>
    :
    : I'm tempted to quote Woody Allen here but I won't.
    :
    :
    : << Whoever
    : Derek's fighting for it isn't for me. >>
    :
    : Quit taking generalizations made to a newsgroup so literally and/or
    : personally...
    :
    : << Why does everybody criticize the voice acting? Aren't you listening to
    : the original Japanese? Sorry, but how can you consider yourself a fan
    : if you aren't listening to the original Japanese? >>
    :
    : Should I be reading this in the Comic Book Guy voice?
    :

    I dont dig dubbing or losing visual focus of the film by not paying
    attention to the on-screen action and paying attention to subtitles -
    because I speak english and understand english being spoken to me - not
    Japanese and why would I want to watch a film in a language I cannot
    understand?
     
    George Hernandez, Jun 29, 2003
    #4
  5. Wade365

    Lithurge Guest

    "George Hernandez" <no_email@no_domain.pud> wrote in
    news:awBLa.43242$:

    >


    >:
    >
    > I dont dig dubbing or losing visual focus of the film by
    > not paying attention to the on-screen action and paying
    > attention to subtitles - because I speak english and
    > understand english being spoken to me - not Japanese and
    > why would I want to watch a film in a language I cannot
    > understand?
    >
    >
    >


    Largely because they seem to understand what they are doing much
    better than the english voice actors they get in. Every english
    track I've tried has been horribly overacted & unsympathetic to
    the material.
     
    Lithurge, Jun 29, 2003
    #5
  6. Wade365

    Jay G Guest

    "George Hernandez" <no_email@no_domain.pud> wrote
    > I dont dig dubbing or losing visual focus of the film by not paying
    > attention to the on-screen action and paying attention to subtitles -
    > because I speak english and understand english being spoken to me - not
    > Japanese and why would I want to watch a film in a language I cannot
    > understand?


    I'm confused. You don't like dubbing *or* subtitles? Are you
    planning on watching anime on mute?

    I'm guessing you just don't like original language with subtitles,
    so I'll address that. While you may not be able to understand
    Japanese, you are still able to understand inflection and
    emphasis, and therefore emotion, when listening to it. So
    while the subtitles give you the meaning of what they are
    saying, the original audio gives you the emotional context of
    those words.

    In a dub, that emotional context can be changed.
    It may be as simple as the voice for the dub not being as
    deep as the original voice, meaning the dub voice exerts
    less authority, diminishing a character. Most often though,
    the dubs are just bad, with people reading the translated
    script in a very flat and rushed tone. A lot of the emotional
    content can then be lost.

    Another reason for subtitles is that they are often a more
    accurate translation of the original script. Dubs very
    often have to alter the dialogue so as to fit the mouth
    movements on screen. This is why the dub dialogue
    often sounds rushed. The dub dialogue is sometimes
    either edited down to very simple sentences, making
    the show sound not very well written, or it can be
    changed to mean something totally different from what
    was originally said. So subtitles are preferable in
    that they usually offer a more accurate translation.

    As for wanting to watch the on-screen action and
    not be distracted by reading, I find reading subtitles
    not distracting at all. Sure, initially it takes some
    getting used to, and if you're a slow reader it
    might be very distracting at first. However, your
    mind adapts, and soon reading subtitles becomes
    second nature. I find I'm able to both read subtitles
    *and* watch the action fairly easily.

    Of course, not all dubs are created equal, and some
    dubs can be very well done. SPIRITED AWAY
    had an excellent dub, with a great script and great
    new voice acting. The English dub for COWBOY
    BEBOP is considered by many anime fans to be
    superior to the original Japanese. Ultimately,
    the choice comes down to personal preference.
    If you prefer listening to English dubs that is your
    choice, but you should understand that one
    choice is not automatically better than the other,
    and each has its drawbacks and advantages.

    Not for the pedantic: Yes, I know that technically
    for most anime *all* dialogue tracks are dubs,
    since even the original Japanese track is recorded
    after the animation was done. However, the
    Japanese track is the first one recorded, usually
    supervised by the director, and while the
    animation isn't animated in sync with dialogue,
    it is animated with the Japanese dialogue in mind.

    -Jay
     
    Jay G, Jun 29, 2003
    #6
  7. Wade365

    Lithurge Guest

    (Wade365) wrote in
    news::

    > << Every english
    > track I've tried has been horribly overacted &
    > unsympathetic to the material. >>
    >
    >
    > Cowboy Bebop, Spriggan, Exel Saga, Hellsing, Soul Taker,
    > most Gundam spin-offs...
    >
    > ... and though I hate to bring it up because everyone does,
    > SPIRITED AWAY...
    >
    > These series all have excellent ADR work for the English
    > translation and voice acting (although I realize the
    > original post has said Bebop was not to their taste).
    >
    >
    >


    Nope I found much the same with the Bebop voice work, although I
    only listened to about 15 mins worth.
     
    Lithurge, Jun 29, 2003
    #7
  8. Thanks Jay, for the record, you did guess correctly as to what I was
    meaning. Here's my thing - I sometimes tend to be something of a lazy film
    watcher, and almost always lazy when it comes to animation - I have no
    intention or desire to need to anlayze an animated film's language and most
    often than not, the time I usually have to watch these is on downtime that I
    rarely get, and would probably wind up sleeping through it if all I was
    listening to was jibberish

    So while your explainations were very detailed and in-depth, I feel kind of
    bad for you having possibly wasted your time on deaf ears - aesthetics,
    inflections, rushed dialog and bad translations aside, Im not going to
    bother with a film unless there's an English track - I unfortunately just
    cant be bothered.

    "Jay G" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    :
    : "George Hernandez" <no_email@no_domain.pud> wrote
    : > I dont dig dubbing or losing visual focus of the film by not paying
    : > attention to the on-screen action and paying attention to subtitles -
    : > because I speak english and understand english being spoken to me - not
    : > Japanese and why would I want to watch a film in a language I cannot
    : > understand?
    :
    : I'm confused. You don't like dubbing *or* subtitles? Are you
    : planning on watching anime on mute?
    :
    : I'm guessing you just don't like original language with subtitles,
    : so I'll address that. While you may not be able to understand
    : Japanese, you are still able to understand inflection and
    : emphasis, and therefore emotion, when listening to it. So
    : while the subtitles give you the meaning of what they are
    : saying, the original audio gives you the emotional context of
    : those words.
    :
    : In a dub, that emotional context can be changed.
    : It may be as simple as the voice for the dub not being as
    : deep as the original voice, meaning the dub voice exerts
    : less authority, diminishing a character. Most often though,
    : the dubs are just bad, with people reading the translated
    : script in a very flat and rushed tone. A lot of the emotional
    : content can then be lost.
    :
    : Another reason for subtitles is that they are often a more
    : accurate translation of the original script. Dubs very
    : often have to alter the dialogue so as to fit the mouth
    : movements on screen. This is why the dub dialogue
    : often sounds rushed. The dub dialogue is sometimes
    : either edited down to very simple sentences, making
    : the show sound not very well written, or it can be
    : changed to mean something totally different from what
    : was originally said. So subtitles are preferable in
    : that they usually offer a more accurate translation.
    :
    : As for wanting to watch the on-screen action and
    : not be distracted by reading, I find reading subtitles
    : not distracting at all. Sure, initially it takes some
    : getting used to, and if you're a slow reader it
    : might be very distracting at first. However, your
    : mind adapts, and soon reading subtitles becomes
    : second nature. I find I'm able to both read subtitles
    : *and* watch the action fairly easily.
    :
    : Of course, not all dubs are created equal, and some
    : dubs can be very well done. SPIRITED AWAY
    : had an excellent dub, with a great script and great
    : new voice acting. The English dub for COWBOY
    : BEBOP is considered by many anime fans to be
    : superior to the original Japanese. Ultimately,
    : the choice comes down to personal preference.
    : If you prefer listening to English dubs that is your
    : choice, but you should understand that one
    : choice is not automatically better than the other,
    : and each has its drawbacks and advantages.
    :
    : Not for the pedantic: Yes, I know that technically
    : for most anime *all* dialogue tracks are dubs,
    : since even the original Japanese track is recorded
    : after the animation was done. However, the
    : Japanese track is the first one recorded, usually
    : supervised by the director, and while the
    : animation isn't animated in sync with dialogue,
    : it is animated with the Japanese dialogue in mind.
    :
    : -Jay
    :
    :
     
    George Hernandez, Jun 29, 2003
    #8
  9. Wade365

    Jay G Guest

    "Lithurge" <> wrote ...
    >
    > Nope I found much the same with the Bebop voice work, although I
    > only listened to about 15 mins worth.


    Perhaps because you listened to the Japanese
    first and got used to the characters that way?
    It'd be like listening to an English dub of a
    Jackie Chan film where someone else dubs
    his voice. Although it might be a perfectly good
    dub, and the voice actor my turn in a great
    performance, we *know* what Jackie Chan's
    voice sounds like now, so it'd still seem 'wrong,'

    I know I watched Bebop in Japanese first, because
    I hadn't heard about the dub being good, and I
    like watching films/shows in their original language.
    When I heard the dub was high quality, I tried
    listening to it, but the voices were 'wrong'. I already
    had the characters associated with their Japanese
    voices, so the dub did not align with what I thought
    the characters should sound like.

    Or perhaps you're just too used to listening to
    anime in Japanese. Anime is composed of
    various styles and genres, but it all gets lumped
    together in most of our minds. Therefore,
    when your mind thinks of anime, it expects
    Japanese audio, the way you nearly always
    listen to it. It's for this reason that I think
    Japanese audio tracks were put on the
    Animatrix DVD. Even though the English
    tracks could arguable be called the 'original'
    and intended audio track, anime fans expect
    their anime to be in Japanese with subtitles.

    Or maybe you just think the English dub for
    Bebop is bad. After all, taste is subjective.
    Some people even thought the dub for
    Princess Mononoke was decent.

    -Jay
     
    Jay G, Jun 29, 2003
    #9
  10. Wade365

    Lithurge Guest

    "Jay G" <> wrote in
    news::

    >
    > "Lithurge" <> wrote ...
    >>
    >> Nope I found much the same with the Bebop voice work,
    >> although I only listened to about 15 mins worth.

    >
    > Perhaps because you listened to the Japanese
    > first and got used to the characters that way?
    > It'd be like listening to an English dub of a
    > Jackie Chan film where someone else dubs
    > his voice. Although it might be a perfectly good
    > dub, and the voice actor my turn in a great
    > performance, we *know* what Jackie Chan's
    > voice sounds like now, so it'd still seem 'wrong,'
    >


    I think that is possibly the reason, but I'm not entirely
    convinced to be honest. For example Golgo 13 The
    Professional, I picked this up with the English dub (only
    seems to be available that way) and think it's been done
    really well. However got the R2 Detonator Orgun (which is
    English Dub only) and it's appalling, of course I've watched
    quite a few more anime in between the two. I'll have to give
    Golgo another go to see.

    As for your Jackie Chan point I have never managed to sit
    through Snake & Crane Art of Shaolin with its, again, awful
    dub. Don't get me wrong I have no objection to people
    watching these things dubbed if that's what they prefer, I
    just like to have the option of the original language &
    subtitles.

    It's not even that I expect the lip synch to be perferct,
    having watched Boogiepop Phantom this afternoon, there is one
    scene in the 1st episode where the speech/lip movement is
    out, but it still looked & sounded right.

    >
    > Or perhaps you're just too used to listening to
    > anime in Japanese. Anime is composed of
    > various styles and genres, but it all gets lumped
    > together in most of our minds. Therefore,
    > when your mind thinks of anime, it expects
    > Japanese audio, the way you nearly always
    > listen to it.


    Interesting theory, but I think it's the listen to the
    original actrors, saying the original lines. I prefer to see
    any film in its native format, which can be tricky with some
    of the chinese ones, as they often seem to redub them from
    cantonese to mandarin or vice versa.


    > It's for this reason that I think
    > Japanese audio tracks were put on the
    > Animatrix DVD. Even though the English
    > tracks could arguable be called the 'original'
    > and intended audio track, anime fans expect
    > their anime to be in Japanese with subtitles.


    No Japanese on the R2 (uk) version, but again I would choose
    to watch the English, as you say that is the 'original' dub.
    Much like I believe Vampire Hunter D Bloodlust is actually
    english first.


    >
    > Or maybe you just think the English dub for
    > Bebop is bad. After all, taste is subjective.
    > Some people even thought the dub for
    > Princess Mononoke was decent.
    >


    Couldn't possibly comment on Mononoke ;)
     
    Lithurge, Jun 29, 2003
    #10
  11. George Hernandez wrote:
    > I dont dig dubbing or losing visual focus of the film by not paying
    > attention to the on-screen action and paying attention to subtitles -
    > because I speak english and understand english being spoken to me - not
    > Japanese and why would I want to watch a film in a language I cannot
    > understand?
    >
    >


    I'll never understand those who say they can't read subtitles and follow
    the film at the same time. It's the same with letterboxing, some people
    choose to be annoyed and thrown off by it, those of us who care about
    viewing the film as it was intended by the maker, are somehow able to
    get past it.

    --
    "It is dark, you are likely to be eaten by a grue."
    --Zork

    Grand Inquisitor
    http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mycollection.asp?alias=Oost
     
    Grand Inquisitor, Jun 29, 2003
    #11
  12. Wade365

    Jay G Guest

    "George Hernandez" <no_email@no_domain.pud> wrote
    >
    > So while your explainations were very detailed and in-depth, I feel kind

    of
    > bad for you having possibly wasted your time on deaf ears - aesthetics,
    > inflections, rushed dialog and bad translations aside, Im not going to
    > bother with a film unless there's an English track - I unfortunately just
    > cant be bothered.


    That's ok. While original language with subtitles for anime may
    not be your choice, at least now you understand why it may be
    someone else's.

    The great thing about DVD is that it doesn't have to be an
    either/or situation, fans can have both.

    -Jay
     
    Jay G, Jun 29, 2003
    #12
  13. Wade365

    BC Guest

    In article <Xns93A99834BB895xasd23dsf@130.133.1.4>, Lithurge
    <> wrote:

    >"George Hernandez" <no_email@no_domain.pud> wrote in
    >news:awBLa.43242$:
    >
    >>

    >
    >>:
    >>
    >> I dont dig dubbing or losing visual focus of the film by
    >> not paying attention to the on-screen action and paying
    >> attention to subtitles - because I speak english and
    >> understand english being spoken to me - not Japanese and
    >> why would I want to watch a film in a language I cannot
    >> understand?
    >>
    >>
    >>

    >
    >Largely because they seem to understand what they are doing much
    >better than the english voice actors they get in. Every english
    >track I've tried has been horribly overacted & unsympathetic to
    >the material.


    Castle In The Sky has the worse voice acting on it by that Van Beak
    dude... totally stuffed up the film for me.

    <=[BC]=>
     
    BC, Jun 30, 2003
    #13
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