Re: Most companies using open source violate intellectual propertyrights -- Part III

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by AD., Aug 11, 2010.

  1. AD.

    AD. Guest

    On Aug 11, 11:36 pm, "impossible" <> wrote:
    > "Many companies are unaware of how different software licensing works with
    > open source, or their executives fear being forced to divulge their own
    > software code because it was intermingled with some open source code under
    > the Gnu Public License (GPL). "
    >
    > http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/203019/linux_foundation...
    >
    > This is a much smarter response than anything we've heard from the Larry
    > D'Loserite drones in nz.comp.


    And it also completely contradicts your earlier depiction of how
    companies think about the GPL.

    ie "thinking there's no restrictions because GPL advocates told them
    so" vs "being scared of those restrictions"

    As usual you've also moved the goalposts from "GPL advocates
    everywhere say there are no restrictions" to "Larry in nz.comp says
    there are no restrictions", which would put you right back at claiming
    it was Larry in nz.comp all along who somehow managed to influence all
    those companies.

    Then again you still haven't shown many examples of anyone at all
    saying the GPL has no restrictions.

    > Oh, wait....Can that be true? Didn't Anton the Wanton Censor tell us all
    > that the OpenLogic survey should just be ignored?


    Nope - that was just pointing out your hypocritical double standards
    when it comes to quoting surveys. The survey said nothing about WHY
    companies violated licenses - that was all stuff you made up.

    And now you've just strengthened the objections to your original made
    up claims by confirming that GPL advocates don't actually claim the
    GPL has no restrictions after all and are in fact working hard to
    educate companies about those restrictions. You just invalidated your
    own wild exaggerations from part 1 and part 2.

    Looks like you just scored an own goal.

    --
    Cheers
    Anton
     
    AD., Aug 11, 2010
    #1
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  2. AD.

    AD. Guest

    On Aug 12, 10:16 am, "impossible" <> wrote:
    > "AD." <> wrote in message
    > >>http://groups.google.co.nz/group/nz.comp/msg/3b36602fda9c4b70

    >
    > >> Oh, wait....Can that be true? Didn't Anton the Wanton Censor tell us all
    > >> that the OpenLogic survey should just be ignored?

    >
    > > And it also completely contradicts your earlier depiction of how
    > > companies think about the GPL.

    >
    > I posted the link to the previous thread, and I stand by everything I said
    > there.


    So when did you change from saying companies were unaware they were
    shipping GPL code (which is largely what the survey said) to saying
    they had been led to believe it was all OK by GPL advocates who think
    the GPL has no restrictions?

    http://groups.google.com/group/nz.comp/msg/b1204348fdda6ae7
    "That seems to be what most companies think, yes. Open source software
    software really isn't actually "free as in free speech", as the Larry
    D'Loserite ideologues would have you believe."

    http://groups.google.com/group/nz.comp/msg/d540cc1a9d808004
    "The problem is that relatively few companies are even aware that
    they need to think about open source licensing terms. They have
    largely
    bought into the whole "free as in speech" metaphor,"

    http://groups.google.com/group/nz.comp/msg/731569e2feba8658
    "Yes, open-source compliance is a mass of confusion. Most companies
    (65%,
    according to the survey) that use open source never give a thought to
    the
    licensing restrictions involved. Which isn't surprising, of course --
    for
    years you've had Larry D'Loserite ideologues preaching the notion that
    open
    source is "free" from all legal restrictions."

    You still haven't shown any GPL advocates claiming the GPL has no
    legal restrictions. You're very keen to brush that claim under the
    carpet by burying it in extraneous bullshit. You'd be better off if
    you just stuck to the facts.

    >  Pity you chose to snip that link, but then they don't call you Anton
    > the Wanton Censor for nothing.


    "they" - ha! Doesn't talking about yourself in the third person seem a
    little weird?

    Crybaby - trimming quotes is standard usenet etiquette. You just hate
    it when someone ignores your attempts to head off on a tangent after
    being unable to back up something you invented. Especially when it
    contradicts something else you've said.

    > The Linux Foundation now backs precisely the


    You use the word "now" to imply they had a different view before. Care
    to prove that? If you can't and they haven't changed their view about
    GPL restrictions, then your previous arguments about GPL advocates
    preaching the lack of restrictions fall apart.

    You could still fall back on Larry in nz.comp saying something (but
    you still haven't even shown that yet), but then how would he be able
    to influence these companies into believing something that contradicts
    what the Linux Foundation and other notable GPL advocates actually
    say.

    > case I was making, based on a published survey that you sought so
    > desperately to cover up,


    I haven't covered it up at all. You're just trying to sidestep again.

    > that most companies using open source software
    > routinely violate the intellectual property rights of open source
    > developers.


    Another sidestep. I have never disputed that - just your explanation
    of how it is supposed to have happened.

    >
    > Education and training, together with a strict compliance regime, are now
    > highly recommended. Are you on board with that recommendation or are you
    > going to continue to play the weasel?


    Weasel? Huh? You're the one refusing to show any evidence to back up
    your claims that these companies were led astray by GPL advocates who
    think the GPL has no legal restrictions.

    As for that statement about education and training - I think it's a
    good one and have never said otherwise.

    --
    Cheers
    Anton
     
    AD., Aug 12, 2010
    #2
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  3. AD.

    AD. Guest

    On Aug 12, 2:45 pm, "impossible" <> wrote:
    > "AD." <> wrote in message
    > > So when did you change from saying companies were unaware they were
    > > shipping GPL code (which is largely what the survey said) ....

    >
    > No, that's not what the survey said and that's not what I said. The survey
    > quite clearly that most companies simply pay no attention whatsoever to open
    > source licensing restrictions -- they behave as if either (a) they're
    > completely unaware that these licensing restrictions exist or (b) they're
    > completely unaware that they have any responsibiliy to comply with these
    > restrictions.


    Really? Your own quote from the survey indicates otherwise:

    "More than 65% of respondents who believed that they were not
    distributing
    open source software were in fact providing software to customers,
    partners
    or others outside the organization."

    They "believed that they were not distributing open source software"
    not that they were unaware of the restrictions as you'd like to twist
    it.

    >
    > > ....to saying
    > > they had been led to believe it was all OK by GPL advocates who think
    > > the GPL has no restrictions?

    >
    > The two statements go hand-in-hand. Why else would oithwerwise law-abiding
    > companies so cavalierly disregard the intellectual property rights of
    > developers unless they were led to beleive that no such proiperty rights
    > existed?


    Umm because they "believed that they were not distributing open source
    software". The very quote you supplied that you now are trying to make
    say something else.

    > And gee, I can't imagine whyere they got **that** idea. Can you?


    Let me guess? Larry told them? He's so convincing! yeah right.

    > To
    > its credit, the Linux Foundation is taking steps now to correct that
    > misconception.
    >
    > >http://groups.google.com/group/nz.comp/msg/b1204348fdda6ae7
    > > "That seems to be what most companies think, yes. Open source software
    > > software really isn't actually "free as in free speech", as the Larry
    > > D'Loserite ideologues would have you believe. You can't just do what you
    > > please with open source software, and more than you can with closed source
    > > software. Either way, there are intellectual property rights that must be
    > > respected.

    >
    > I stand by every word of that statement, including the part you censored
    > that I've now restored <shakes head>


    That's because I didn't disagree with the part I snipped. And it
    doesn't make any difference to what you said anyway.

    >
    > >http://groups.google.com/group/nz.comp/msg/d540cc1a9d808004
    > > "The problem is that relatively few companies are even aware that
    > > they need to think about open source licensing terms. They have
    > > largely
    > > bought into the whole "free as in speech" metaphor, which works well for
    > > the
    > > customer, naturally, but turns out to be a decidedly  poor way of
    > > describing
    > > the intellectual property rights of open source developers. "

    >
    > I stand by every word of that statement, as well, including the part you
    > censored that I've now restored <shakes head again>


    That's because I didn't really disagree with that part. And it doesn't
    make any difference to what you said anyway.


    >
    > >http://groups.google.com/group/nz.comp/msg/731569e2feba8658
    > > "Yes,  open-source compliance is a mass of confusion. Most companies
    > > (65%,
    > > according to the survey) that use open source never give a thought to
    > > the
    > > licensing restrictions involved. Which isn't surprising, of course --
    > > for
    > > years you've had Larry D'Loserite ideologues preaching the notion that
    > > open
    > > source is "free" from all legal restrictions. Companies are learning the
    > > hard way now that this is simply not true."

    >
    > I stand by every word of that statement, too, including the part you
    > censored that I've now restored <shakes head once more>


    Well you should thank me for that one - you were completely misquoting
    the survey (see above and below). You look even worse with that bit
    back in place.

    >
    > > You still haven't shown any GPL advocates claiming the GPL has no
    > > legal restrictions.

    >
    > From the Home Page of GNU:


    <snipped the GNU homepage stuff>

    >
    > There's not one solitary word on that page about licensing restrictions.
    > Nothing. Just freedom, freedom, freedom. Freedom Blah, blah, blah -- the
    > usual Larry D'Loserite come on. Most pertinent to this discussion, it's
    > about "freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor" !!!!
    > Just like businesses have been doing for your years without any
    > consideration as to whether or not they were violating someone's
    > intellectual property rights.


    So you obviously don't understand the difference between "Free
    Software" and "Copyleft".

    That homepage directly links to the "Free Software Definition":
    http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

    Which in turn mentions that not all Free Software is Copyleft - and
    that links to the definition of Copyleft:
    http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/copyleft.html

    Most Free Software licenses are not Copyleft - eg BSD, MIT, Apache
    etc. These licenses don't have the same complex legal restrictions on
    distribution that Copyleft licenses (eg the GPL, LGPL etc) do.

    Copyleft licenses are a subset of Free Software licenses - yes I know
    subsets confuse you, but bear with me...

    The copyleft definition plainly spells out those restrictions. They
    didn't spell them out in the Free Software Definition because those
    restrictions are license specific and don't apply to most Free
    Software licenses.

    And that copyleft definition is only two clicks from the homepage. How
    many other organisations make their licenses and legal restrictions
    that obvious?

    And anyway, even if they didn't point it out in that short homepage
    summary - that is not the same thing as explicitly denying there are
    any restrictions as you claimed. You're grasping at straws if you
    think a legal dept would just skim the homepage rather than read the
    details.

    >
    > Browse through the rest of the GNU site and, sure, you'll find what you need
    > to know about the vast array of GPL licensing restrictions. But the point is
    > that there is a widespread impression among businesses, validated by the
    > survey you tried to cover up, that open source really is all about "free as
    > in free speech" and that they therefore have no obligation to respect to
    > intellectual property rights if they so choose. I mean, really...How else
    > would you suppose someone might interpret "free as in free speech" other
    > than free as in free speech, unencumbered by any any licensing restrictions?


    Aside from implying that legal depts really are completely sloppy and
    don't research anything, you're still misquoting the survey. The
    survey said they were unaware of the distribution not that they were
    aware of the distribution but unaware of the restrictions.

    And that is backed up further down the survey page you linked to:

    "Are you generally familiar with the requirements of the GNU General
    Public Licenses (such as the GPL, LGPL and AGPL) for open source
    software? Yes 68.0% A little 24.0% No 6.7% Not sure what it is 1.3%"

    Only 8% said they were unfamiliar with the requirements of the GPL.
    Those numbers would need to be reversed for all those "potential"
    violations to be because they didn't understand the GPL. Maybe they
    were all lying or misinformed? But wouldn't that invalidate most of
    their other responses as well?

    There is also no stated connection between:

    "More than 65% of respondents who believed that they were not
    distributing open source software were in fact providing software to
    customers, partners or others outside the organization"

    and the verified number of actual license violations (they didn't
    specify copyleft software - just open source) they just talk about the
    the potential risk of GPL violations. Just distributing something
    doesn't automatically mean you are violating the license. Plenty of
    open source licenses allow unrestricted distribution.

    Another important point: that 65% figure is actually 65% of the 59%
    that said they weren't distributing open source software, which makes
    it only 38% of the total respondents that were unaware they were
    distributing open source software. That is another blatant
    misrepresentation on your part.

    If you want to make stuff up, you're going to have to do a better job
    than that. You really don't have a leg to stand on.

    >
    > No off you go, you miserable twit!  I'm done with you.


    Phew! I sure hope you follow though with that.

    --
    Cheers
    Anton
     
    AD., Aug 12, 2010
    #3
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