Re: mcsd

Discussion in 'MCSD' started by Davin Mickelson, Aug 12, 2003.

  1. I do not have a college degree yet have taught college (accredited) courses
    at the University of Minnesota on .NET.
    I landed my current job based on experience and certifications.

    The job market can be biased towards those with college degrees - depending
    on the potential employer.
    I consider it their loss for foreboding my lack of degree over skill set.

    There are plenty of college graduates that have never developed on Windows.
    They develop on C++/Java on Unix and call themselves scientists.

    Davin Mickelson
    MCP+SB, MCSD(VC++,VB6), MCSD.NET, MCSA

    "chris" <> wrote in message
    news:0bcf01c360b9$9b2e39a0$...
    > I'm planning to get a MCSD w/i the next year. How
    > valuable is that w/o a 4 year degree?
    Davin Mickelson, Aug 12, 2003
    #1
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  2. Davin Mickelson

    chris Guest

    well, yes, my company, the govt, will be paying for it. i
    don't have any real world programming exp, but i have
    class room exp. i'm very interested in breaking into the
    programming side of things. i've been on the networking
    side for over 6 years. would the mcsd really help me land
    that programming dream job after getting out of the
    military? thanks.
    >-----Original Message-----
    >So true.
    >
    >"John S" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> > There are plenty of college graduates that have never

    developed on
    >> Windows.
    >> > They develop on C++/Java on Unix and call themselves

    scientists.
    >>
    >> There are plenty of college graduates that have only

    developed on Windows.
    >> They develop only with VB or C# and we call them

    cowboys.
    >>
    >> "Davin Mickelson" <> wrote in

    message
    >> news:OEo%...
    >> > I do not have a college degree yet have taught

    college (accredited)
    >> courses
    >> > at the University of Minnesota on .NET.
    >> > I landed my current job based on experience and

    certifications.
    >> >
    >> > The job market can be biased towards those with

    college degrees -
    >> depending
    >> > on the potential employer.
    >> > I consider it their loss for foreboding my lack of

    degree over skill
    >set.
    >> >
    >> > There are plenty of college graduates that have never

    developed on
    >> Windows.
    >> > They develop on C++/Java on Unix and call themselves

    scientists.
    >> >
    >> > Davin Mickelson
    >> > MCP+SB, MCSD(VC++,VB6), MCSD.NET, MCSA
    >> >
    >> > "chris" <> wrote in message
    >> > news:0bcf01c360b9$9b2e39a0$...
    >> > > I'm planning to get a MCSD w/i the next year. How
    >> > > valuable is that w/o a 4 year degree?
    >> >
    >> >

    >>
    >>

    >
    >
    >.
    >
    chris, Aug 13, 2003
    #2
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  3. Davin Mickelson

    emg Guest

    Chris, right now the entire IT market in the U.S. is in a state of
    upheaval. A lot of programming jobs are going overseas - - permanently. So
    to answer your question: no, an MCSD is unlikely to get you a programming
    job when you have no relevant experience. I know good programmers with
    experience and degrees and/or certs that have spent over a year unemployed.

    Now maybe things will turn around. And certainly if the training and cert
    costs are paid for by your employer, you lose nothing by acquiring the
    certification. Despite all the gloom and doom, some people in some places
    DO manage to get the job they want. So I'm not trying to kill off your
    "dream". I'm just cautioning you not to pin all your hopes on a
    certification or even getting a programming job at all. Try to explore
    other options in addition to a programming career.

    Best of Luck!

    emg

    "chris" <> wrote in message
    news:04fd01c36188$062bdbd0$...
    > well, yes, my company, the govt, will be paying for it. i
    > don't have any real world programming exp, but i have
    > class room exp. i'm very interested in breaking into the
    > programming side of things. i've been on the networking
    > side for over 6 years. would the mcsd really help me land
    > that programming dream job after getting out of the
    > military? thanks.
    > >-----Original Message-----
    > >So true.
    > >
    > >"John S" <> wrote in message
    > >news:...
    > >> > There are plenty of college graduates that have never

    > developed on
    > >> Windows.
    > >> > They develop on C++/Java on Unix and call themselves

    > scientists.
    > >>
    > >> There are plenty of college graduates that have only

    > developed on Windows.
    > >> They develop only with VB or C# and we call them

    > cowboys.
    > >>
    > >> "Davin Mickelson" <> wrote in

    > message
    > >> news:OEo%...
    > >> > I do not have a college degree yet have taught

    > college (accredited)
    > >> courses
    > >> > at the University of Minnesota on .NET.
    > >> > I landed my current job based on experience and

    > certifications.
    > >> >
    > >> > The job market can be biased towards those with

    > college degrees -
    > >> depending
    > >> > on the potential employer.
    > >> > I consider it their loss for foreboding my lack of

    > degree over skill
    > >set.
    > >> >
    > >> > There are plenty of college graduates that have never

    > developed on
    > >> Windows.
    > >> > They develop on C++/Java on Unix and call themselves

    > scientists.
    > >> >
    > >> > Davin Mickelson
    > >> > MCP+SB, MCSD(VC++,VB6), MCSD.NET, MCSA
    > >> >
    > >> > "chris" <> wrote in message
    > >> > news:0bcf01c360b9$9b2e39a0$...
    > >> > > I'm planning to get a MCSD w/i the next year. How
    > >> > > valuable is that w/o a 4 year degree?
    > >> >
    > >> >
    > >>
    > >>

    > >
    > >
    > >.
    > >
    emg, Aug 13, 2003
    #3
  4. Davin Mickelson

    Kline Sphere Guest

    >would the mcsd really help me land
    >that programming dream job after getting out of the
    >military?


    No. But your experience in the military might help if it was with
    electronics avionics especially in the avionics field.
    Kline Sphere, Aug 13, 2003
    #4
  5. Davin Mickelson

    Kline Sphere Guest

    >A lot of programming jobs are going overseas - - permanently.

    People said that in the mid 80's and again in the early 90's when
    previously outsourceing was all the rage. The reason there is so must
    emphasis on outsourcing this time around, is solely down to the
    inefficiencies of IT infrastructures, in other words it 'seems'
    cheaper to let someone else do it. This is completely inaccurate as in
    a well organized, disciplined & professional environment there is no
    way a third party could 'compete' and 'provide' cheaper services to
    you.

    Software engineering to not like production engineering, which
    requires little human involvement; so if IT infrastructures where
    managed by competent professionals, there would be no outsourcing,
    period.
    Kline Sphere, Aug 13, 2003
    #5
  6. Davin Mickelson

    Crystal Guest

    Someone I used to work with got a job this way. But that company paid her
    bottom (and I mean BOTTOM) dollar salary-wise.

    You might try getting a job on the networking side for a company where you
    can grow into their development department.

    "chris" <> wrote in message
    news:04fd01c36188$062bdbd0$...
    > well, yes, my company, the govt, will be paying for it. i
    > don't have any real world programming exp, but i have
    > class room exp. i'm very interested in breaking into the
    > programming side of things. i've been on the networking
    > side for over 6 years. would the mcsd really help me land
    > that programming dream job after getting out of the
    > military? thanks.
    > >-----Original Message-----
    > >So true.
    > >
    > >"John S" <> wrote in message
    > >news:...
    > >> > There are plenty of college graduates that have never

    > developed on
    > >> Windows.
    > >> > They develop on C++/Java on Unix and call themselves

    > scientists.
    > >>
    > >> There are plenty of college graduates that have only

    > developed on Windows.
    > >> They develop only with VB or C# and we call them

    > cowboys.
    > >>
    > >> "Davin Mickelson" <> wrote in

    > message
    > >> news:OEo%...
    > >> > I do not have a college degree yet have taught

    > college (accredited)
    > >> courses
    > >> > at the University of Minnesota on .NET.
    > >> > I landed my current job based on experience and

    > certifications.
    > >> >
    > >> > The job market can be biased towards those with

    > college degrees -
    > >> depending
    > >> > on the potential employer.
    > >> > I consider it their loss for foreboding my lack of

    > degree over skill
    > >set.
    > >> >
    > >> > There are plenty of college graduates that have never

    > developed on
    > >> Windows.
    > >> > They develop on C++/Java on Unix and call themselves

    > scientists.
    > >> >
    > >> > Davin Mickelson
    > >> > MCP+SB, MCSD(VC++,VB6), MCSD.NET, MCSA
    > >> >
    > >> > "chris" <> wrote in message
    > >> > news:0bcf01c360b9$9b2e39a0$...
    > >> > > I'm planning to get a MCSD w/i the next year. How
    > >> > > valuable is that w/o a 4 year degree?
    > >> >
    > >> >
    > >>
    > >>

    > >
    > >
    > >.
    > >
    Crystal, Aug 13, 2003
    #6
  7. From what I've seen, there is a glass wall between the networking folks and
    the developers. It may be tough to transfer at a company from cleaning
    several machines with the Blaster virus to cutting .NET code. The employer
    may prefer you to continue cleaning machines (where you're most efficient
    for the company) rather than begin coding. This can be true going the other
    way too for other reasons (salary, etc.).

    Tough call.

    "Crystal" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Someone I used to work with got a job this way. But that company paid her
    > bottom (and I mean BOTTOM) dollar salary-wise.
    >
    > You might try getting a job on the networking side for a company where you
    > can grow into their development department.
    >
    > "chris" <> wrote in message
    > news:04fd01c36188$062bdbd0$...
    > > well, yes, my company, the govt, will be paying for it. i
    > > don't have any real world programming exp, but i have
    > > class room exp. i'm very interested in breaking into the
    > > programming side of things. i've been on the networking
    > > side for over 6 years. would the mcsd really help me land
    > > that programming dream job after getting out of the
    > > military? thanks.
    > > >-----Original Message-----
    > > >So true.
    > > >
    > > >"John S" <> wrote in message
    > > >news:...
    > > >> > There are plenty of college graduates that have never

    > > developed on
    > > >> Windows.
    > > >> > They develop on C++/Java on Unix and call themselves

    > > scientists.
    > > >>
    > > >> There are plenty of college graduates that have only

    > > developed on Windows.
    > > >> They develop only with VB or C# and we call them

    > > cowboys.
    > > >>
    > > >> "Davin Mickelson" <> wrote in

    > > message
    > > >> news:OEo%...
    > > >> > I do not have a college degree yet have taught

    > > college (accredited)
    > > >> courses
    > > >> > at the University of Minnesota on .NET.
    > > >> > I landed my current job based on experience and

    > > certifications.
    > > >> >
    > > >> > The job market can be biased towards those with

    > > college degrees -
    > > >> depending
    > > >> > on the potential employer.
    > > >> > I consider it their loss for foreboding my lack of

    > > degree over skill
    > > >set.
    > > >> >
    > > >> > There are plenty of college graduates that have never

    > > developed on
    > > >> Windows.
    > > >> > They develop on C++/Java on Unix and call themselves

    > > scientists.
    > > >> >
    > > >> > Davin Mickelson
    > > >> > MCP+SB, MCSD(VC++,VB6), MCSD.NET, MCSA
    > > >> >
    > > >> > "chris" <> wrote in message
    > > >> > news:0bcf01c360b9$9b2e39a0$...
    > > >> > > I'm planning to get a MCSD w/i the next year. How
    > > >> > > valuable is that w/o a 4 year degree?
    > > >> >
    > > >> >
    > > >>
    > > >>
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >.
    > > >

    >
    >
    Davin Mickelson, Aug 13, 2003
    #7
  8. Davin Mickelson

    Kline Sphere Guest

    >what certs would help me break into that
    >career since the mcsd wouldn't offer much help?


    None, unless you have experience.

    There are hundreds of grads with computer related degrees who have
    given up on IT, because they could not get jobs, and chosen other more
    lucrative careers. It those grads you will be competing with marking
    it very hard for all.

    > also,
    >network security seems to be in demand now, are there any
    >cisco, or security certs currently being offered that
    >would stand out on resumes?


    Of course there are. But again these would do you little good without
    real world experience.
    Kline Sphere, Aug 14, 2003
    #8
  9. Davin Mickelson

    Crystal Guest

    I guess I have just been fortunate with the companies I have worked for. At
    one company, someone in accounting and another person who was a receptionist
    moved into the application support department. From there they were both
    able to become developers. It wasn't an overnight change, it took several
    years, but in application support, they were able to learn the programming
    language, then they maintained applications, then eventually developed
    applications. A couple of guys I worked with started as network guys, then
    moved to a small company where they did development and admin, then moved to
    another company doing only development. The last company I worked for, both
    of the network guys also did development. The company I work for now is all
    about transferring people internally if you show you have the initiative and
    the skills. Right now one of our network guys is going to school so he can
    eventually transfer.

    Another thing he could do is get a developer within the company to "mentor"
    him. Then the mentor might serve as a reference when he wants to move on.
    When I started out, I had a mentor who recommended books and also gave me
    career advice at certain critical junctions in my career. He also gave me
    programming assignments for apps that could be used within the company which
    helped me get experience.

    Crystal


    "Davin Mickelson" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > From what I've seen, there is a glass wall between the networking folks

    and
    > the developers. It may be tough to transfer at a company from cleaning
    > several machines with the Blaster virus to cutting .NET code. The employer
    > may prefer you to continue cleaning machines (where you're most efficient
    > for the company) rather than begin coding. This can be true going the

    other
    > way too for other reasons (salary, etc.).
    >
    > Tough call.
    >
    > "Crystal" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > Someone I used to work with got a job this way. But that company paid

    her
    > > bottom (and I mean BOTTOM) dollar salary-wise.
    > >
    > > You might try getting a job on the networking side for a company where

    you
    > > can grow into their development department.
    > >
    > > "chris" <> wrote in message
    > > news:04fd01c36188$062bdbd0$...
    > > > well, yes, my company, the govt, will be paying for it. i
    > > > don't have any real world programming exp, but i have
    > > > class room exp. i'm very interested in breaking into the
    > > > programming side of things. i've been on the networking
    > > > side for over 6 years. would the mcsd really help me land
    > > > that programming dream job after getting out of the
    > > > military? thanks.
    > > > >-----Original Message-----
    > > > >So true.
    > > > >
    > > > >"John S" <> wrote in message
    > > > >news:...
    > > > >> > There are plenty of college graduates that have never
    > > > developed on
    > > > >> Windows.
    > > > >> > They develop on C++/Java on Unix and call themselves
    > > > scientists.
    > > > >>
    > > > >> There are plenty of college graduates that have only
    > > > developed on Windows.
    > > > >> They develop only with VB or C# and we call them
    > > > cowboys.
    > > > >>
    > > > >> "Davin Mickelson" <> wrote in
    > > > message
    > > > >> news:OEo%...
    > > > >> > I do not have a college degree yet have taught
    > > > college (accredited)
    > > > >> courses
    > > > >> > at the University of Minnesota on .NET.
    > > > >> > I landed my current job based on experience and
    > > > certifications.
    > > > >> >
    > > > >> > The job market can be biased towards those with
    > > > college degrees -
    > > > >> depending
    > > > >> > on the potential employer.
    > > > >> > I consider it their loss for foreboding my lack of
    > > > degree over skill
    > > > >set.
    > > > >> >
    > > > >> > There are plenty of college graduates that have never
    > > > developed on
    > > > >> Windows.
    > > > >> > They develop on C++/Java on Unix and call themselves
    > > > scientists.
    > > > >> >
    > > > >> > Davin Mickelson
    > > > >> > MCP+SB, MCSD(VC++,VB6), MCSD.NET, MCSA
    > > > >> >
    > > > >> > "chris" <> wrote in message
    > > > >> > news:0bcf01c360b9$9b2e39a0$...
    > > > >> > > I'm planning to get a MCSD w/i the next year. How
    > > > >> > > valuable is that w/o a 4 year degree?
    > > > >> >
    > > > >> >
    > > > >>
    > > > >>
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >.
    > > > >

    > >
    > >

    >
    >
    Crystal, Aug 14, 2003
    #9
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