Re: Linux lasts longer

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Nomon Damad, Jan 17, 2005.

  1. Nomon Damad

    Nomon Damad Guest

    On , , Sun, 16 Jan 2005 02:39:33 +1300, Re: Linux lasts longer,
    "" <> wrote:

    >On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 13:34:08 +1300, Nomon Damad wrote:
    >
    >>>Let's face it - MS-DOS 1.0 WAS basically a clone of CP/M under the hood.

    >>
    >> Why would it matter if it is?
    >> The person who cloned it was obviously brighter than the original writer.

    >
    >Only two persons at Micro$oft worked on hacking the first version of
    >MS-DOS.
    >
    >It was substantially purchased from it's original non-Micro$oft cloner.
    >It's original name was Quick and Dirty Operating System - Q-DOS.


    Most of us already know that.

    >Micro$oft has a history of purchasing software instead of creating
    >all-original projects.


    That is sound business sense, why create yourself if you can buy
    something for a fraction of the price? I can make and bake
    perfectly good bread but I choose to buy it from a shop.

    >Micro$oft also has a history of taking a known cross platform standard,
    >and modifying it in such a way that stuff designed to work on Windows
    >cannot work on the other platforms.


    And Apple programs work on PC's?

    >Micro$oft is not a nice player within the IT community.


    I think you have a little problem with Microsoft.
    Of course this other company you keep talking about doesn't seem
    to exist.
     
    Nomon Damad, Jan 17, 2005
    #1
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  2. Bruce Sinclair wrote:
    >>>Micro$oft also has a history of taking a known cross platform standard,
    >>>and modifying it in such a way that stuff designed to work on Windows
    >>>cannot work on the other platforms.


    >>And Apple programs work on PC's?


    > ... if it were a cross platform standard, it should. It never has been.
    > OTOH, microsoft are known to write "enhancements" to standards so that the
    > standard no longer works on the other platforms.
    > Whether that is a conspiracy or stupidity, it's still not clever :)


    it is if they wish to lock their customers into using their products and
    only their products...

    "I cant open this MS word file with Oo_O, what choice do I have?"
    "well, none, you're fucked, go buy MS Office"

    MS gets another sale.


    Of course, the person would more likely email the file to someone else
    to save it as something else, and it would be sorted, but I think you
    get what I mean... if users know of no alternative, or the alternative
    "doesnt work", they wont use one.
     
    Dave - Dave.net.nz, Jan 17, 2005
    #2
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  3. In article <>, wrote:
    (snip)
    >>Micro$oft also has a history of taking a known cross platform standard,
    >>and modifying it in such a way that stuff designed to work on Windows
    >>cannot work on the other platforms.

    >
    >And Apple programs work on PC's?


    ... if it were a cross platform standard, it should. It never has been.
    OTOH, microsoft are known to write "enhancements" to standards so that the
    standard no longer works on the other platforms.
    Whether that is a conspiracy or stupidity, it's still not clever :)




    Bruce


    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to
    think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone´s fault.
    If it was Us, what did that make Me ? After all, I´m one of Us. I must be.
    I´ve certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No-one ever thinks
    of themselves as one of Them. We´re always one of Us. It´s Them that do
    the bad things. <=> Terry Pratchett. Jingo.

    Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups
    (if there were any)
     
    Bruce Sinclair, Jan 17, 2005
    #3
  4. In article <>, "Dave - Dave.net.nz" <> wrote:
    >Bruce Sinclair wrote:
    >>>>Micro$oft also has a history of taking a known cross platform standard,
    >>>>and modifying it in such a way that stuff designed to work on Windows
    >>>>cannot work on the other platforms.

    >
    >>>And Apple programs work on PC's?

    >
    >> ... if it were a cross platform standard, it should. It never has been.
    >> OTOH, microsoft are known to write "enhancements" to standards so that the
    >> standard no longer works on the other platforms.
    >> Whether that is a conspiracy or stupidity, it's still not clever :)

    >
    >it is if they wish to lock their customers into using their products and
    >only their products...


    You might very well think that ... I couldn't possibly comment :)

    >"I cant open this MS word file with Oo_O, what choice do I have?"
    >"well, none, you're fucked, go buy MS Office"
    >MS gets another sale.


    Until eventually, some of us realise we are being had and make a different
    choice :)

    >Of course, the person would more likely email the file to someone else
    >to save it as something else, and it would be sorted, but I think you
    >get what I mean... if users know of no alternative, or the alternative
    >"doesnt work", they wont use one.


    Indeed. The "default syndrome" ... relying as it does on ignorance. No one
    has lost money banking on that :)


    Bruce


    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to
    think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone´s fault.
    If it was Us, what did that make Me ? After all, I´m one of Us. I must be.
    I´ve certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No-one ever thinks
    of themselves as one of Them. We´re always one of Us. It´s Them that do
    the bad things. <=> Terry Pratchett. Jingo.

    Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups
    (if there were any)
     
    Bruce Sinclair, Jan 17, 2005
    #4
  5. Nomon Damad

    Guest

    On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 14:52:22 +1300, Nomon Damad wrote:

    >>Micro$oft has a history of purchasing software instead of creating
    >>all-original projects.

    >
    > That is sound business sense, why create yourself if you can buy
    > something for a fraction of the price? I can make and bake
    > perfectly good bread but I choose to buy it from a shop.


    "Sound business sense" it may be. "Innovation" it is not.


    >>Micro$oft also has a history of taking a known cross platform standard,
    >>and modifying it in such a way that stuff designed to work on Windows
    >>cannot work on the other platforms.

    >
    > And Apple programs work on PC's?


    Since when were "Apple programmes" a known cross platform standard?


    Divine

    --
    Following the release of Windows 3.0 in May 1990, Phil Barrett was immediately
    assigned to oversee the coding of MS-DOS 5.0, and basically "to spend a lot of
    time making dos 5 happen fast." His assessment of the team plan was not kind:
    "The schedules had not been really well thought through. There was a lot of
    engineering work that had to be done; testing, test plans. There was no beta
    test plan. There was just a lot of stuff that needed to be done. A lot of
    activities that needed to be completed in order to ship a product had not even
    been completed, not even been started at that point."
    Notwithstanding this lack of clarity, Microsoft continued to tell the world to
    expect MS-DOS 5.0 before the end of the year.
     
    , Jan 17, 2005
    #5
  6. Nomon Damad

    Guest

    On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 03:59:46 +0000, Bruce Sinclair wrote:

    >>it is if they wish to lock their customers into using their products and
    >>only their products...

    >
    > You might very well think that ... I couldn't possibly comment :)


    Aaah! So who's been watching House of Cards? :eek:)


    Divine

    --
    Micro$oft Knowledge Base: "This problem was first corrected in Windows 2000
    Service Pack 2."
     
    , Jan 17, 2005
    #6
  7. In article <pan.2005.01.17.07.08.15.65239@TRACKER>, "" <> wrote:
    >On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 03:59:46 +0000, Bruce Sinclair wrote:
    >
    >>>it is if they wish to lock their customers into using their products and
    >>>only their products...

    >>
    >> You might very well think that ... I couldn't possibly comment :)

    >
    >Aaah! So who's been watching House of Cards? :eek:)


    Reference well spotted ... and I'd love to watch it again some time. :)


    Bruce


    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to
    think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone´s fault.
    If it was Us, what did that make Me ? After all, I´m one of Us. I must be.
    I´ve certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No-one ever thinks
    of themselves as one of Them. We´re always one of Us. It´s Them that do
    the bad things. <=> Terry Pratchett. Jingo.

    Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups
    (if there were any)
     
    Bruce Sinclair, Jan 17, 2005
    #7
  8. Nomon Damad

    Guest

    On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 22:02:13 +0000, Bruce Sinclair wrote:

    >>Aaah! So who's been watching House of Cards? :eek:)

    >
    > Reference well spotted ... and I'd love to watch it again some time. :)


    The DVD set of House of Cards, To Play the King, and The Final Cut, is
    available from Whitcoulls - which is where I bought my copy. :eek:)


    Divine

    --
    "Microsoft don't need any moral right to be a hypocrite. It's an oxymoron.
    They will do what they can get away with. Of course this makes it difficult
    for their advocates to occupy any high moral ground."
     
    , Jan 18, 2005
    #8
  9. Bruce Sinclair wrote:
    >>The DVD set of House of Cards, To Play the King, and The Final Cut, is
    >>available from Whitcoulls - which is where I bought my copy. :eek:)


    > ... but without a DVD player (yes, there are still some of us :)


    *gasp*
     
    Dave - Dave.net.nz, Jan 19, 2005
    #9
  10. In article <pan.2005.01.18.07.43.24.151562@TRACKER>, "" <> wrote:
    >On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 22:02:13 +0000, Bruce Sinclair wrote:
    >
    >>>Aaah! So who's been watching House of Cards? :eek:)

    >>
    >> Reference well spotted ... and I'd love to watch it again some time. :)

    >
    >The DVD set of House of Cards, To Play the King, and The Final Cut, is
    >available from Whitcoulls - which is where I bought my copy. :eek:)


    ... but without a DVD player (yes, there are still some of us :) ) this is
    not useful :)


    Bruce


    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to
    think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone´s fault.
    If it was Us, what did that make Me ? After all, I´m one of Us. I must be.
    I´ve certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No-one ever thinks
    of themselves as one of Them. We´re always one of Us. It´s Them that do
    the bad things. <=> Terry Pratchett. Jingo.

    Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups
    (if there were any)
     
    Bruce Sinclair, Jan 19, 2005
    #10
  11. In article <>, "Dave - Dave.net.nz" <> wrote:
    >Bruce Sinclair wrote:
    >>>The DVD set of House of Cards, To Play the King, and The Final Cut, is
    >>>available from Whitcoulls - which is where I bought my copy. :eek:)

    >
    >> ... but without a DVD player (yes, there are still some of us :)

    >
    >*gasp*


    OK. ... we are considering it. The video recorder decided it was 1989 this
    year. Still works OK ... it just gets the day wrong, which is a bit of a
    pain. :)
    Maybe when it or the CD player breaks again.



    Bruce


    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to
    think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone´s fault.
    If it was Us, what did that make Me ? After all, I´m one of Us. I must be.
    I´ve certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No-one ever thinks
    of themselves as one of Them. We´re always one of Us. It´s Them that do
    the bad things. <=> Terry Pratchett. Jingo.

    Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups
    (if there were any)
     
    Bruce Sinclair, Jan 19, 2005
    #11
  12. Nomon Damad

    Nomon Damad Guest

    On , , Mon, 17 Jan 2005 15:43:26 +1300, Re: Linux lasts longer,
    "Dave - Dave.net.nz" <> wrote:

    >Bruce Sinclair wrote:
    >>>>Micro$oft also has a history of taking a known cross platform standard,
    >>>>and modifying it in such a way that stuff designed to work on Windows
    >>>>cannot work on the other platforms.

    >
    >>>And Apple programs work on PC's?

    >
    >> ... if it were a cross platform standard, it should. It never has been.
    >> OTOH, microsoft are known to write "enhancements" to standards so that the
    >> standard no longer works on the other platforms.
    >> Whether that is a conspiracy or stupidity, it's still not clever :)

    >
    >it is if they wish to lock their customers into using their products and
    >only their products...
    >
    >"I cant open this MS word file with Oo_O, what choice do I have?"
    >"well, none, you're fucked, go buy MS Office"
    >
    >MS gets another sale.


    But I still can't understand why you think they should cater to
    other platforms. It doesn't make economic sense, it doesn't make
    business sense.
     
    Nomon Damad, Jan 19, 2005
    #12
  13. Nomon Damad

    froggy Guest

    On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 23:39:28 +1300, Nomon Damad wrote:

    > On , , Mon, 17 Jan 2005 15:43:26 +1300, Re: Linux lasts longer,
    > "Dave - Dave.net.nz" <> wrote:
    >
    >>Bruce Sinclair wrote:
    >>>>>Micro$oft also has a history of taking a known cross platform standard,
    >>>>>and modifying it in such a way that stuff designed to work on Windows
    >>>>>cannot work on the other platforms.

    >>
    >>>>And Apple programs work on PC's?

    >>
    >>> ... if it were a cross platform standard, it should. It never has been.
    >>> OTOH, microsoft are known to write "enhancements" to standards so that the
    >>> standard no longer works on the other platforms.
    >>> Whether that is a conspiracy or stupidity, it's still not clever :)

    >>
    >>it is if they wish to lock their customers into using their products and
    >>only their products...
    >>
    >>"I cant open this MS word file with Oo_O, what choice do I have?"
    >>"well, none, you're fucked, go buy MS Office"
    >>
    >>MS gets another sale.

    >
    > But I still can't understand why you think they should cater to
    > other platforms. It doesn't make economic sense, it doesn't make
    > business sense.


    perhaps that question should be directed at sun,
    the reps there are paid the same comission whether they sell sparc with
    windows, linux, or solaris ( I read an interview about it tonight by
    coincidence, but buggered if I can retrieve the url)
    sun has taken the position that they dont care what the system runs .. as
    long as its one of thier machines,
    and by the same token, solaris.. who cares what its run on.. as long as
    its running solaris
    I cant say im convinced its a winning strategy, but I dont own/manage sun

    if pushed I will _try_ and find the url
     
    froggy, Jan 19, 2005
    #13
  14. Nomon Damad

    froggy Guest

    <snip for brevity>
    >>
    >> But I still can't understand why you think they should cater to
    >> other platforms. It doesn't make economic sense, it doesn't make
    >> business sense.

    >
    > perhaps that question should be directed at sun,
    > the reps there are paid the same comission whether they sell sparc with
    > windows, linux, or solaris ( I read an interview about it tonight by
    > coincidence, but buggered if I can retrieve the url)
    > sun has taken the position that they dont care what the system runs .. as
    > long as its one of thier machines,
    > and by the same token, solaris.. who cares what its run on.. as long as
    > its running solaris
    > I cant say im convinced its a winning strategy, but I dont own/manage sun
    >
    > if pushed I will _try_ and find the url


    and wouldnt ya know it that damn url shows up straight after i post :\
    http://www.sun.com/nc/04q4/chat/chat-trans.html

    the third question asked of scott mcnealy

    Q: In order to increase Market share penetration into companies with a
    primarily WIntel environment, has Sun considered partnerships with leading
    suppliers of that hardware? (HP/Compaq, Dell, IBM)?


    Scott McNealy (A): Yes. We run on over 270 non Sun platforms including
    from all of the companies you mention. You have choice and we pay our reps
    the same whether they sell sun computers with Solaris or competitors
    computers with Solaris. Same $s.
     
    froggy, Jan 19, 2005
    #14
  15. Nomon Damad wrote:

    > On , , Mon, 17 Jan 2005 15:43:26 +1300, Re: Linux lasts longer,
    > "Dave - Dave.net.nz" <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Bruce Sinclair wrote:
    >>
    >>>>>Micro$oft also has a history of taking a known cross platform standard,
    >>>>>and modifying it in such a way that stuff designed to work on Windows
    >>>>>cannot work on the other platforms.

    >>
    >>>>And Apple programs work on PC's?

    >>
    >>>... if it were a cross platform standard, it should. It never has been.
    >>>OTOH, microsoft are known to write "enhancements" to standards so that the
    >>>standard no longer works on the other platforms.
    >>>Whether that is a conspiracy or stupidity, it's still not clever :)


    >>it is if they wish to lock their customers into using their products and
    >>only their products...
    >>"I cant open this MS word file with Oo_O, what choice do I have?"
    >>"well, none, you're fucked, go buy MS Office"
    >>MS gets another sale.


    > But I still can't understand why you think they should cater to
    > other platforms. It doesn't make economic sense, it doesn't make
    > business sense.


    to pull as many users in as possible to using their products... if they
    can show people "how good" office is on Mac, they may convice some users
    to switch to using a PC... after all, if you're just using it for office
    work, a PC *should* be cheaper...

    Apple are doing a similar thing with the Ipod... more people than ever
    seem to be considering bying a Mac becuase the Ipod has opened their
    eyes to the type of product that Apple can produce.

    Apple products appeal to the shallow, "prettier is better", side of me,
    but I need a Wintel PC for work for the moment, and Linux shows more
    promise for work than Mac does(at this stage), although the lines are
    blurring with all the web based apps we use.
     
    Dave - Dave.net.nz, Jan 19, 2005
    #15
  16. In article <>,
    Nomon Damad <> wrote:

    >On , , Mon, 17 Jan 2005 15:43:26 +1300, Re: Linux lasts longer,
    >"Dave - Dave.net.nz" <> wrote:
    >
    >>Bruce Sinclair wrote:
    >>>>>Micro$oft also has a history of taking a known cross platform standard,
    >>>>>and modifying it in such a way that stuff designed to work on Windows
    >>>>>cannot work on the other platforms.

    >>
    >>>>And Apple programs work on PC's?

    >>
    >>> ... if it were a cross platform standard, it should. It never has been.
    >>> OTOH, microsoft are known to write "enhancements" to standards so that the
    >>> standard no longer works on the other platforms.
    >>> Whether that is a conspiracy or stupidity, it's still not clever :)

    >>
    >>it is if they wish to lock their customers into using their products and
    >>only their products...
    >>
    >>"I cant open this MS word file with Oo_O, what choice do I have?"
    >>"well, none, you're fucked, go buy MS Office"
    >>
    >>MS gets another sale.

    >
    >But I still can't understand why you think they should cater to
    >other platforms. It doesn't make economic sense, it doesn't make
    >business sense.


    Yes it does make business sense. If the Office division of Microsoft
    supports platforms besides Windows, then it is not tied to only selling
    copies to Windows customers, it has a wider market than that. Result:
    the Office division can make more profit, which means more profit for
    Microsoft as a whole.
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Jan 19, 2005
    #16
  17. In article <o2iHd.9195$>,
    z (Bruce Sinclair) wrote:

    >.. but without a DVD player (yes, there are still some of us :) ) this is
    >not useful :)


    Heck, they're so cheap you can pick them up in the supermarkets now.
    Just pop one in your trolley next time you go for some groceries.
     
    Lawrence D¹Oliveiro, Jan 20, 2005
    #17
  18. In article <4EjHd.9225$>,
    z (Bruce Sinclair) wrote:

    >The video recorder decided it was 1989 this
    >year. Still works OK ... it just gets the day wrong, which is a bit of a
    >pain. :)


    I have two old videos like that--both still highly prized. You can fix
    the day by using my list of substitute years at
    <http://www.geek-central.gen.nz/old_vcr_calendar.html>.
     
    Lawrence D¹Oliveiro, Jan 20, 2005
    #18
  19. In <> Dave - Dave.net.nz wrote:
    > Nomon Damad wrote:
    >
    >> On , , Mon, 17 Jan 2005 15:43:26 +1300, Re: Linux lasts longer,
    >> "Dave - Dave.net.nz" <> wrote:

    >
    >>>it is if they wish to lock their customers into using their products
    >>>and only their products... "I cant open this MS word file with Oo_O,
    >>>what choice do I have?" "well, none, you're fucked, go buy MS Office"
    >>>MS gets another sale.

    >
    >> But I still can't understand why you think they should cater to
    >> other platforms. It doesn't make economic sense, it doesn't make
    >> business sense.

    >
    > to pull as many users in as possible to using their products... if
    > they can show people "how good" office is on Mac, they may convice
    > some users to switch to using a PC... after all, if you're just using
    > it for office work, a PC *should* be cheaper...


    They might end up a bit disappointed though if they switch from the Mac
    to the Windows version. I've never used MS Office at all, but from
    everything I've heard the Mac version is substantially better than the
    Windows version. One reason is that MS tend to try out the fancy new
    features on the Mac version first, the other is that it's running on the
    Mac OS, so it gets all the typical Mac drag-and-drop, auto-everything
    functions. Oh, and yes, it looks prettier than the Windows version ;-)

    --
    Roger Johnstone, Invercargill, New Zealand
    http://vintageware.orcon.net.nz/
    ________________________________________________________________________
    No Silicon Heaven? Preposterous! Where would all the calculators go?

    Kryten, from the Red Dwarf episode "The Last Day"
     
    Roger Johnstone, Jan 20, 2005
    #19
  20. In article <>, Lawrence D¹Oliveiro <_zealand> wrote:
    >In article <o2iHd.9195$>,
    > z (Bruce Sinclair) wrote:
    >
    >>.. but without a DVD player (yes, there are still some of us :) ) this is
    >>not useful :)

    >
    >Heck, they're so cheap you can pick them up in the supermarkets now.
    >Just pop one in your trolley next time you go for some groceries.


    Why ? ... got no DVDs :) :)
    ... and certainly don't want to climb into reconnecting everything. !


    Bruce


    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to
    think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone´s fault.
    If it was Us, what did that make Me ? After all, I´m one of Us. I must be.
    I´ve certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No-one ever thinks
    of themselves as one of Them. We´re always one of Us. It´s Them that do
    the bad things. <=> Terry Pratchett. Jingo.

    Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups
    (if there were any)
     
    Bruce Sinclair, Jan 24, 2005
    #20
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