Re: Let's just call this group nz.troll

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Gordon, Feb 11, 2010.

  1. Gordon

    Gordon Guest

    On 2010-02-11, impossible <> wrote:
    > In the past week, 23 of of 40 new trolls were started by Larry D'Loser.
    >
    > My god! Have the rest of you no shame?


    How about the idea that you give up reading this group?
    Gordon, Feb 11, 2010
    #1
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  2. Gordon

    Donchano Guest

    On 11 Feb 2010 04:37:35 GMT, Gordon <> shouted from
    the highest rooftop:

    >On 2010-02-11, impossible <> wrote:
    >> In the past week, 23 of of 40 new trolls were started by Larry D'Loser.
    >>
    >> My god! Have the rest of you no shame?

    >
    >How about the idea that you give up reading this group?


    Or get a decent newsreader that allows you to automatically ignore all
    his posts and any replies to his posts.

    Incidentally, I notice that his news service is ihug. Anyone else use
    ihug on nz.comp? If not, a decent newsreader like Agent will allow you
    to filter using the message ID.
    Donchano, Feb 11, 2010
    #2
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  3. Gordon

    victor Guest

    impossible wrote:
    >
    >
    > "Gordon" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> On 2010-02-11, impossible <> wrote:
    >>> In the past week, 23 of of 40 new trolls were started by Larry D'Loser.
    >>>
    >>> My god! Have the rest of you no shame?

    >>
    >> How about the idea that you give up reading this group?

    >
    > Ms Penguin would like that. But no, it is my mission in life to tame
    > her flock of trolls -- or barring that, to humilate them.


    fail
    victor, Feb 14, 2010
    #3
  4. Gordon

    Max Burke Guest

    On 15/02/2010 10:02 a.m., victor wrote:
    > impossible wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >> "Gordon" <> wrote in message
    >> news:...
    >>> On 2010-02-11, impossible <> wrote:
    >>>> In the past week, 23 of of 40 new trolls were started by Larry D'Loser.
    >>>>
    >>>> My god! Have the rest of you no shame?
    >>>
    >>> How about the idea that you give up reading this group?

    >>
    >> Ms Penguin would like that. But no, it is my mission in life to tame
    >> her flock of trolls -- or barring that, to humilate them.

    >
    > fail


    I dunno..

    S/he seems to get laughable knee jerk reactions from most of the *nix
    users and/or advocates here with every post s/he makes regarding Linux.

    I dont know why you all just ignore/killfile her/him.

    but hey I'm not telling anyone what to post or anything.
    Maybe it's that you all have nothing better to do...

    --


    Found Images
    http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~mlvburke
    Max Burke, Feb 15, 2010
    #4
  5. Gordon

    victor Guest

    Max Burke wrote:
    > On 15/02/2010 10:02 a.m., victor wrote:
    >> impossible wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> "Gordon" <> wrote in message
    >>> news:...
    >>>> On 2010-02-11, impossible <> wrote:
    >>>>> In the past week, 23 of of 40 new trolls were started by Larry
    >>>>> D'Loser.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> My god! Have the rest of you no shame?
    >>>>
    >>>> How about the idea that you give up reading this group?
    >>>
    >>> Ms Penguin would like that. But no, it is my mission in life to tame
    >>> her flock of trolls -- or barring that, to humilate them.

    >>
    >> fail

    >
    > I dunno..
    >
    > S/he seems to get laughable knee jerk reactions from most of the *nix
    > users and/or advocates here with every post s/he makes regarding Linux.
    >
    > I dont know why you all just ignore/killfile her/him.
    >
    > but hey I'm not telling anyone what to post or anything.
    > Maybe it's that you all have nothing better to do...
    >

    Well welcome to the club Max.
    The 2 or 3 participants are pointing out that small variations in the
    web counter measurement sample don't correlate his claims. The various
    web counters he quoted vary the iphone from 0.48% to 1.0% for example
    from 37m sales. So does that mean there are a total of 3.7 billion
    computer users ? or 1.7 billion ? or is it a completely useless
    extrapolation ? I'd look somewhere else for bait.
    The 200 or so software engineers that write the linux kernel aren't
    dependent on the 30 million desktop linux users, they work for server
    and embedded firmware companies. Desktop linux is just an artifact of
    the agreement that allows them to aggregate their work.
    I would guess that most linux installations are owner installed.
    So there are a couple of demographic changes that may change the
    percentage of desktop linux users. One is the trend for home users to
    replace their desktop with an of the shelf Windows laptop. The other is
    for netbook and notebook manufacturers to offer linux.
    Web usage is also changing from websurfing to web 2 which will tilt the
    stats according to the subset of users more likely to access pages which
    use counters as opposed to blogs forums facebook twitter itunes amazon
    ebay trademe wikipedia google news sites etc
    victor, Feb 15, 2010
    #5
  6. Gordon

    victor Guest

    impossible wrote:

    >
    > When all is said and done, there isn't a shred of evidence that linux
    > desktop usage exeeds a relative handful of users. And it's a smaller
    > handful today than just a year ago. My theory: crap applicatijns written
    > primarily by wannabe or out-of-work devleopers. When someone develops an
    > application for the nix platform at a quality level rivaling Adobe
    > Phtoshop or Acrobat or Microsoft Office, then linux usage will take off
    > -- not until then.


    30 million users is a relative handful compared to Windows.
    But its not possible to tell from any of the web page counter sources
    you quoted whether the number of users has increased or decreased over a
    year.
    Taking the wiki one as an example it shows small changes in percentages
    but that is on top of an increase overall and seasonal variations, its
    not possible to extract a signal from the noise
    OTOH usage on Ubuntu's repositories is increasing with an estimated user
    population at 15m up from 8m in 2008.
    My theory: If Adobes entire annual revenue came from Photoshop they
    would still have only sold 5 million copies last year.
    The availability of Photoshop on Linux at $699 wouldn't have much effect.
    victor, Feb 16, 2010
    #6
  7. Gordon

    victor Guest

    impossible wrote:

    >
    >> The availability of Photoshop on Linux at $699 wouldn't have much effect.

    >
    > Why? Because linux usage is dominated today by freetards with an annual
    > software budget of zero? Pardon me for disturbing your niche of
    > free-as-in-beer mediocrity. But if Adobe comes knocking on Ubuntu's
    > door, I trust that Mark Shuttlesworth won't be that foolish.


    Anyone who wants to use Photoshop professionally will get a Mac.
    There is scope for Ubuntu to run an "apps store" but thats not what
    Shuttleworth seems to have in mind. Thats what Linspire did though, but
    yep the Ubuntu crowd likes free beer. mmmmmm beer.
    Adobe is too busy scratching at Steve Jobs door at the moment. "Pleez
    pleez pleez put Flash on yr iphone os pleeeeeeeeeeeeez !"
    victor, Feb 16, 2010
    #7
  8. Gordon

    Donchano Guest

    On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 18:50:57 +1300, victor <> shouted
    from the highest rooftop:

    >impossible wrote:
    >
    >>
    >>> The availability of Photoshop on Linux at $699 wouldn't have much effect.

    >>
    >> Why? Because linux usage is dominated today by freetards with an annual
    >> software budget of zero? Pardon me for disturbing your niche of
    >> free-as-in-beer mediocrity. But if Adobe comes knocking on Ubuntu's
    >> door, I trust that Mark Shuttlesworth won't be that foolish.

    >
    >Anyone who wants to use Photoshop professionally will get a Mac.


    With respect I have to disagree. I know two people - one a graphic
    artist & designer, the other a 3D animator and 3D tutor who teaches
    university graduate students - and the both use Photoshop on Windows
    platform computers (the later having a computer suite that

    Granted, most of their colleagues use Mac. But these two don't and
    probably never will.
    Donchano, Feb 16, 2010
    #8
  9. Gordon

    Donchano Guest

    On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 20:41:28 +1300, Donchano
    <> shouted from the highest rooftop:

    >
    >On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 18:50:57 +1300, victor <> shouted
    >from the highest rooftop:
    >
    >>impossible wrote:
    >>
    >>>
    >>>> The availability of Photoshop on Linux at $699 wouldn't have much effect.
    >>>
    >>> Why? Because linux usage is dominated today by freetards with an annual
    >>> software budget of zero? Pardon me for disturbing your niche of
    >>> free-as-in-beer mediocrity. But if Adobe comes knocking on Ubuntu's
    >>> door, I trust that Mark Shuttlesworth won't be that foolish.

    >>
    >>Anyone who wants to use Photoshop professionally will get a Mac.

    >
    >With respect I have to disagree. I know two people - one a graphic
    >artist & designer, the other a 3D animator and 3D tutor who teaches
    >university graduate students - and the both use Photoshop on Windows
    >platform computers (the later having a computer suite that
    >
    >Granted, most of their colleagues use Mac. But these two don't and
    >probably never will.


    Opps .. the later having a production suite that most of us can only
    dream of.
    Donchano, Feb 16, 2010
    #9
  10. Gordon

    Max Burke Guest

    On 16/02/2010 11:17 a.m., victor wrote:

    >> Max Burke wrote:


    >>>> Ms Penguin would like that. But no, it is my mission in life to tame
    >>>> her flock of trolls -- or barring that, to humilate them.


    >>> fail


    >> I dunno..
    >> S/he seems to get laughable knee jerk reactions from most of the *nix
    >> users and/or advocates here with every post s/he makes regarding Linux.
    >> I dont know why you all just ignore/killfile her/him.
    >> but hey I'm not telling anyone what to post or anything.
    >> Maybe it's that you all have nothing better to do...


    > Well welcome to the club Max.


    I decided against joining remember. The cost in my recreational time was
    just too high for me to become a Linux 'advocate.' It (Ubuntu) just
    didn't work for me like Windows XP and Windows 7 does.

    General Linux usage is a tiny percentage of general Windows usage .
    That's a fact. (of life) and that's hardly likely to change any time soon.

    But I digress....

    Why do you/anyone bother arguing percentage points at all?????

    What's the point? (pun intended) Why waste your time?


    --


    Found Images
    http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~mlvburke
    Max Burke, Feb 16, 2010
    #10
  11. Gordon

    Adam Guest

    Donchano wrote:

    >
    > On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 20:41:28 +1300, Donchano
    > <> shouted from the highest rooftop:
    >
    >>
    >>On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 18:50:57 +1300, victor <> shouted
    >>from the highest rooftop:
    >>
    >>>impossible wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>
    >>>>> The availability of Photoshop on Linux at $699 wouldn't have much
    >>>>> effect.
    >>>>
    >>>> Why? Because linux usage is dominated today by freetards with an annual
    >>>> software budget of zero? Pardon me for disturbing your niche of
    >>>> free-as-in-beer mediocrity. But if Adobe comes knocking on Ubuntu's
    >>>> door, I trust that Mark Shuttlesworth won't be that foolish.
    >>>
    >>>Anyone who wants to use Photoshop professionally will get a Mac.

    >>
    >>With respect I have to disagree. I know two people - one a graphic
    >>artist & designer, the other a 3D animator and 3D tutor who teaches
    >>university graduate students - and the both use Photoshop on Windows
    >>platform computers (the later having a computer suite that
    >>
    >>Granted, most of their colleagues use Mac. But these two don't and
    >>probably never will.

    >
    > Opps .. the later having a production suite that most of us can only
    > dream of.


    Nice going.

    WinXP or Win7 ?
    Adam, Feb 16, 2010
    #11
  12. Gordon

    victor Guest

    Max Burke wrote:
    > On 16/02/2010 11:17 a.m., victor wrote:
    >
    >>> Max Burke wrote:

    >
    >>>>> Ms Penguin would like that. But no, it is my mission in life to tame
    >>>>> her flock of trolls -- or barring that, to humilate them.

    >
    >>>> fail

    >
    >>> I dunno..
    >>> S/he seems to get laughable knee jerk reactions from most of the *nix
    >>> users and/or advocates here with every post s/he makes regarding Linux.
    >>> I dont know why you all just ignore/killfile her/him.
    >>> but hey I'm not telling anyone what to post or anything.
    >>> Maybe it's that you all have nothing better to do...

    >
    >> Well welcome to the club Max.

    >
    > I decided against joining remember. The cost in my recreational time was
    > just too high for me to become a Linux 'advocate.' It (Ubuntu) just
    > didn't work for me like Windows XP and Windows 7 does.
    >
    > General Linux usage is a tiny percentage of general Windows usage .
    > That's a fact. (of life) and that's hardly likely to change any time soon.
    >
    > But I digress....
    >
    > Why do you/anyone bother arguing percentage points at all?????
    >
    > What's the point? (pun intended) Why waste your time?
    >
    >

    No idea, I'm not the one proclaiming the decline of Linux on the flimsy
    evidence of random variations in the small population of linux users
    hitting a small sample of websites with browser hit counters.
    victor, Feb 16, 2010
    #12
  13. Gordon

    victor Guest

    impossible wrote:
    >
    >
    > "victor" <> wrote in message
    > news:hldbo5$5ru$-september.org...
    >> impossible wrote:
    >>
    >>>
    >>> "victor" <> wrote in message
    >>> news:hld11q$qdl$-september.org...
    >>>> impossible wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>> When all is said and done, there isn't a shred of evidence that
    >>>>> linux desktop usage exeeds a relative handful of users. And it's a
    >>>>> smaller handful today than just a year ago. My theory: crap
    >>>>> applicatijns written primarily by wannabe or out-of-work
    >>>>> devleopers. When someone develops an application for the nix
    >>>>> platform at a quality level rivaling Adobe Phtoshop or Acrobat or
    >>>>> Microsoft Office, then linux usage will take off -- not until then.
    >>>>
    >>>> 30 million users is a relative handful compared to Windows.
    >>>
    >>> That's what I said, yes.
    >>>
    >>>> But its not possible to tell from any of the web page counter
    >>>> sources you quoted whether the number of users has increased or
    >>>> decreased over a year.
    >>>
    >>> Yes, it is very possible. Just click through the month-by-month stats
    >>> here:
    >>>
    >>> <http://www.w3counter.com/globalstats.php>
    >>>
    >>>> Taking the wiki one as an example it shows small changes in
    >>>> percentages but that is on top of an increase overall and seasonal
    >>>> variations, its not possible to extract a signal from the noise
    >>>
    >>> Yes, it's very possible. Just click through the month-by-month stats
    >>> here:
    >>>
    >>> <http://www.w3counter.com/globalstats.php>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>> OTOH usage on Ubuntu's repositories is increasing with an estimated
    >>>> user population at 15m up from 8m in 2008.
    >>>
    >>> What's matter with you? Too lazy to supply a reference?
    >>>
    >>> Assuming you're right about the growth in Ubuntu use, that doesn't
    >>> contradict the evidence of an overall decline in linuix desktop
    >>> usage. Ubuntu users simply defected from other distros. That's not
    >>> growth, just enthusiasts climbing aboard the latest bandwagon.
    >>>
    >>>> My theory: If Adobes entire annual revenue came from Photoshop they
    >>>> would still have only sold 5 million copies last year.
    >>>
    >>> ??? Translation , please.
    >>>
    >>>> The availability of Photoshop on Linux at $699 wouldn't have much
    >>>> effect.
    >>>
    >>> Why? Because linux usage is dominated today by freetards with an
    >>> annual software budget of zero? Pardon me for disturbing your niche
    >>> of free-as-in-beer mediocrity. But if Adobe comes knocking on
    >>> Ubuntu's door, I trust that Mark Shuttlesworth won't be that foolish.

    >> Anyone who wants to use Photoshop professionally will get a Mac.

    >
    > Whether or not you want to use an application "professionally" is not
    > the issue. Professional-quality apps developed by professional software
    > development teams are available for users to run on the OsX and Windows
    > platform, and the bar is set high today for performance and features
    > across a wide range of user needs/interests. The same cannot be said for
    > the linux platform, and that is one of the main reasons that the growth
    > of linux has been stunted.
    >
    >> There is scope for Ubuntu to run an "apps store" but thats not what
    >> Shuttleworth seems to have in mind. Thats what Linspire did though,
    >> but yep the Ubuntu crowd likes free beer. mmmmmm beer.

    >
    > Why are there no free, open-source apps to rival the quality of
    > Photoshop, Autocad, Microsoft Office, and so on? What's wrong with the
    > linux-inspired open-source development model that it can't produce the
    > goods? Why are linux desktop users confined to using second-rate apps?
    >



    I've got several linux desktop machines, when I want to use something
    which runs exclusively on Windows, I use the Windows platform, its just
    another tool. I often use Open Office to open Excel spreadsheets, I keep
    some on Google Docs too. AutoCAD is great but I can view the pdfs I
    generate with it anywhere on any platform for free.
    It doesn't worry me that I have different operating systems for viewing
    web content. I buy some expensive software that only runs on Windows, it
    doesn't stop me also running free software that only runs on linux.
    victor, Feb 16, 2010
    #13
  14. Gordon

    Donchano Guest

    On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 23:34:29 +1300, Adam <> shouted
    from the highest rooftop:

    >Donchano wrote:
    >
    >>
    >> On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 20:41:28 +1300, Donchano
    >> <> shouted from the highest rooftop:
    >>
    >>>
    >>>On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 18:50:57 +1300, victor <> shouted
    >>>from the highest rooftop:
    >>>
    >>>>impossible wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> The availability of Photoshop on Linux at $699 wouldn't have much
    >>>>>> effect.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Why? Because linux usage is dominated today by freetards with an annual
    >>>>> software budget of zero? Pardon me for disturbing your niche of
    >>>>> free-as-in-beer mediocrity. But if Adobe comes knocking on Ubuntu's
    >>>>> door, I trust that Mark Shuttlesworth won't be that foolish.
    >>>>
    >>>>Anyone who wants to use Photoshop professionally will get a Mac.
    >>>
    >>>With respect I have to disagree. I know two people - one a graphic
    >>>artist & designer, the other a 3D animator and 3D tutor who teaches
    >>>university graduate students - and the both use Photoshop on Windows
    >>>platform computers (the later having a computer suite that
    >>>
    >>>Granted, most of their colleagues use Mac. But these two don't and
    >>>probably never will.

    >>
    >> Opps .. the later having a production suite that most of us can only
    >> dream of.

    >
    >Nice going.
    >
    >WinXP or Win7 ?


    The 3D animator is using Windows 7 (and likes it) and the graphic
    artist/designer is currently using XP. All of the 3D animator's
    computers are bespoke.
    Donchano, Feb 16, 2010
    #14
  15. Gordon

    victor Guest

    impossible wrote:
    >
    >
    > "victor" <> wrote in message
    > news:hleuda$rm5$-september.org...
    >> impossible wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> "victor" <> wrote in message
    >>> news:hldbo5$5ru$-september.org...
    >>>> impossible wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>> "victor" <> wrote in message
    >>>>> news:hld11q$qdl$-september.org...
    >>>>>> impossible wrote:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> When all is said and done, there isn't a shred of evidence that
    >>>>>>> linux desktop usage exeeds a relative handful of users. And it's
    >>>>>>> a smaller handful today than just a year ago. My theory: crap
    >>>>>>> applicatijns written primarily by wannabe or out-of-work
    >>>>>>> devleopers. When someone develops an application for the nix
    >>>>>>> platform at a quality level rivaling Adobe Phtoshop or Acrobat or
    >>>>>>> Microsoft Office, then linux usage will take off -- not until then.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> 30 million users is a relative handful compared to Windows.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> That's what I said, yes.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> But its not possible to tell from any of the web page counter
    >>>>>> sources you quoted whether the number of users has increased or
    >>>>>> decreased over a year.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Yes, it is very possible. Just click through the month-by-month
    >>>>> stats here:
    >>>>>
    >>>>> <http://www.w3counter.com/globalstats.php>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> Taking the wiki one as an example it shows small changes in
    >>>>>> percentages but that is on top of an increase overall and seasonal
    >>>>>> variations, its not possible to extract a signal from the noise
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Yes, it's very possible. Just click through the month-by-month
    >>>>> stats here:
    >>>>>
    >>>>> <http://www.w3counter.com/globalstats.php>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> OTOH usage on Ubuntu's repositories is increasing with an
    >>>>>> estimated user population at 15m up from 8m in 2008.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> What's matter with you? Too lazy to supply a reference?
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Assuming you're right about the growth in Ubuntu use, that doesn't
    >>>>> contradict the evidence of an overall decline in linuix desktop
    >>>>> usage. Ubuntu users simply defected from other distros. That's not
    >>>>> growth, just enthusiasts climbing aboard the latest bandwagon.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> My theory: If Adobes entire annual revenue came from Photoshop
    >>>>>> they would still have only sold 5 million copies last year.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> ??? Translation , please.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> The availability of Photoshop on Linux at $699 wouldn't have much
    >>>>>> effect.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Why? Because linux usage is dominated today by freetards with an
    >>>>> annual software budget of zero? Pardon me for disturbing your niche
    >>>>> of free-as-in-beer mediocrity. But if Adobe comes knocking on
    >>>>> Ubuntu's door, I trust that Mark Shuttlesworth won't be that foolish.
    >>>> Anyone who wants to use Photoshop professionally will get a Mac.
    >>>
    >>> Whether or not you want to use an application "professionally" is not
    >>> the issue. Professional-quality apps developed by professional
    >>> software development teams are available for users to run on the OsX
    >>> and Windows platform, and the bar is set high today for performance
    >>> and features across a wide range of user needs/interests. The same
    >>> cannot be said for the linux platform, and that is one of the main
    >>> reasons that the growth of linux has been stunted.
    >>>
    >>>> There is scope for Ubuntu to run an "apps store" but thats not what
    >>>> Shuttleworth seems to have in mind. Thats what Linspire did though,
    >>>> but yep the Ubuntu crowd likes free beer. mmmmmm beer.
    >>>
    >>> Why are there no free, open-source apps to rival the quality of
    >>> Photoshop, Autocad, Microsoft Office, and so on? What's wrong with
    >>> the linux-inspired open-source development model that it can't
    >>> produce the goods? Why are linux desktop users confined to using
    >>> second-rate apps?
    >>>

    >>
    >> I've got several linux desktop machines, when I want to use something
    >> which runs exclusively on Windows, I use the Windows platform, its
    >> just another tool. I often use Open Office to open Excel spreadsheets,
    >> I keep some on Google Docs too. AutoCAD is great but I can view the
    >> pdfs I generate with it anywhere on any platform for free.
    >> It doesn't worry me that I have different operating systems for
    >> viewing web content. I buy some expensive software that only runs on
    >> Windows, it doesn't stop me also running free software that only runs
    >> on linux.

    >
    > Few users seem to share your enthusiasm for booting a new "tool" every
    > time they want to run a different application.



    I don't do that, I don't have any dual boot PCs.
    Running more copies than I need of expensive Windows only apps is a
    waste of money.
    victor, Feb 17, 2010
    #15
  16. Gordon

    victor Guest

    impossible wrote:

    >
    > shakes head> Few users seem to share your enthusiasm for setting up a
    > linux box just to view files they've created in Windows. Why have
    > open-source developers not created any professional-quality applications
    > that would allow linux users to function productively?
    >
    >
    >

    They have, Firefox Thunderbird and OpenOffice are also quite popular on
    Windows. Microsoft Office is an unnecessary expense, I have one copy
    that I bought with a laptop
    My accounts are web based on Xero, The calendar is web based on Google.
    Its not just Windows/Linux/Mac cross platform, it works with iphone and
    symbian as well.
    victor, Feb 17, 2010
    #16
  17. Gordon

    victor Guest

    impossible wrote:
    >
    >
    > "victor" <> wrote in message
    > news:hlhlkr$tpp$-september.org...
    >> impossible wrote:
    >>

    >
    >>
    >> "impossible" <> wrote in message
    >> news:...
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> "victor" <> wrote in message
    >>> news:hlfr2q$4u5$-september.org...
    >>>> impossible wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>> "victor" <> wrote in message
    >>>>> news:hleuda$rm5$-september.org...
    >>>>>> impossible wrote:
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> "victor" <> wrote in message
    >>>>>>> news:hldbo5$5ru$-september.org...
    >>>>>>>> impossible wrote:
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> "victor" <> wrote in message
    >>>>>>>>> news:hld11q$qdl$-september.org...
    >>>>>>>>>> impossible wrote:
    >>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>> When all is said and done, there isn't a shred of evidence
    >>>>>>>>>>> that linux desktop usage exeeds a relative handful of users.
    >>>>>>>>>>> And it's a smaller handful today than just a year ago. My
    >>>>>>>>>>> theory: crap applicatijns written primarily by wannabe or
    >>>>>>>>>>> out-of-work devleopers. When someone develops an application
    >>>>>>>>>>> for the nix platform at a quality level rivaling Adobe
    >>>>>>>>>>> Phtoshop or Acrobat or Microsoft Office, then linux usage
    >>>>>>>>>>> will take off -- not until then.
    >>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> 30 million users is a relative handful compared to Windows.
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> That's what I said, yes.
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> But its not possible to tell from any of the web page counter
    >>>>>>>>>> sources you quoted whether the number of users has increased
    >>>>>>>>>> or decreased over a year.
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> Yes, it is very possible. Just click through the month-by-month
    >>>>>>>>> stats here:
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> <http://www.w3counter.com/globalstats.php>
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> Taking the wiki one as an example it shows small changes in
    >>>>>>>>>> percentages but that is on top of an increase overall and
    >>>>>>>>>> seasonal variations, its not possible to extract a signal from
    >>>>>>>>>> the noise
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> Yes, it's very possible. Just click through the month-by-month
    >>>>>>>>> stats here:
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> <http://www.w3counter.com/globalstats.php>
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> OTOH usage on Ubuntu's repositories is increasing with an
    >>>>>>>>>> estimated user population at 15m up from 8m in 2008.
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> What's matter with you? Too lazy to supply a reference?
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> Assuming you're right about the growth in Ubuntu use, that
    >>>>>>>>> doesn't contradict the evidence of an overall decline in linuix
    >>>>>>>>> desktop usage. Ubuntu users simply defected from other
    >>>>>>>>> distros. That's not growth, just enthusiasts climbing aboard
    >>>>>>>>> the latest bandwagon.
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> My theory: If Adobes entire annual revenue came from Photoshop
    >>>>>>>>>> they would still have only sold 5 million copies last year.
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> ??? Translation , please.
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> The availability of Photoshop on Linux at $699 wouldn't have
    >>>>>>>>>> much effect.
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> Why? Because linux usage is dominated today by freetards with
    >>>>>>>>> an annual software budget of zero? Pardon me for disturbing
    >>>>>>>>> your niche of free-as-in-beer mediocrity. But if Adobe comes
    >>>>>>>>> knocking on Ubuntu's door, I trust that Mark Shuttlesworth
    >>>>>>>>> won't be that foolish.
    >>>>>>>> Anyone who wants to use Photoshop professionally will get a Mac.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Whether or not you want to use an application "professionally" is
    >>>>>>> not the issue. Professional-quality apps developed by
    >>>>>>> professional software development teams are available for users
    >>>>>>> to run on the OsX and Windows platform, and the bar is set high
    >>>>>>> today for performance and features across a wide range of user
    >>>>>>> needs/interests. The same cannot be said for the linux platform,
    >>>>>>> and that is one of the main reasons that the growth of linux has
    >>>>>>> been stunted.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> There is scope for Ubuntu to run an "apps store" but thats not
    >>>>>>>> what Shuttleworth seems to have in mind. Thats what Linspire did
    >>>>>>>> though, but yep the Ubuntu crowd likes free beer. mmmmmm beer.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Why are there no free, open-source apps to rival the quality of
    >>>>>>> Photoshop, Autocad, Microsoft Office, and so on? What's wrong
    >>>>>>> with the linux-inspired open-source development model that it
    >>>>>>> can't produce the goods? Why are linux desktop users confined to
    >>>>>>> using second-rate apps?
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> I've got several linux desktop machines, when I want to use
    >>>>>> something which runs exclusively on Windows, I use the Windows
    >>>>>> platform, its just another tool. I often use Open Office to open
    >>>>>> Excel spreadsheets, I keep some on Google Docs too. AutoCAD is
    >>>>>> great but I can view the pdfs I generate with it anywhere on any
    >>>>>> platform for free.
    >>>>>> It doesn't worry me that I have different operating systems for
    >>>>>> viewing web content. I buy some expensive software that only runs
    >>>>>> on Windows, it doesn't stop me also running free software that
    >>>>>> only runs on linux.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Few users seem to share your enthusiasm for booting a new "tool"
    >>>>> every time they want to run a different application. Hence the
    >>>>> decline of desktop linux usage.
    >>>>
    >>>> > So again -- Why should linux desktop users be confined to using >
    >>>> second-rate apps if that's their platform of choice? If the only >
    >>>> realistic option you can offer is to run Windows and linux >
    >>>> side-by-side, it begs the question as to why anyone would bother
    >>>> with > linux at all.
    >>>
    >>>>
    >>>> I don't do that, I don't have any dual boot PCs.
    >>>
    >>> Lame answer. Stop ducking the real issue.
    >>>
    >>>> Running more copies than I need of expensive Windows only apps is a
    >>>> waste of money.
    >>>
    >>> shakes head> Few users seem to share your enthusiasm for setting up a
    >>> linux box just to view files they've created in Windows. Why have
    >>> open-source developers not created any professional-quality
    >>> applications that would allow linux users to function productively?
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>

    >> They have, Firefox Thunderbird and OpenOffice are also quite popular
    >> on Windows.

    >
    > Photoshop, Autocad, and Microsoft Office are the kind of
    > professional-quality applications that drive Windows usage. Not generic
    > browsers and email clients.


    I see more Windows installs around without them with single apps on them
    Very few with Photoshop or Autocad
    >
    > Oh, and pssst....OpernOffice development is dead.


    It still works for me, seems to be thriving.

    http://go-oo.org/download/
    victor, Feb 18, 2010
    #17
  18. Gordon

    victor Guest

    impossible wrote:
    >
    >
    > "victor" <> wrote in message
    > news:hli505$bpl$-september.org...
    >> impossible wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> "victor" <> wrote in message
    >>> news:hlhlkr$tpp$-september.org...
    >>>> impossible wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>>>
    >>>> "impossible" <> wrote in message
    >>>> news:...
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>> "victor" <> wrote in message
    >>>>> news:hlfr2q$4u5$-september.org...
    >>>>>> impossible wrote:
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> "victor" <> wrote in message
    >>>>>>> news:hleuda$rm5$-september.org...
    >>>>>>>> impossible wrote:
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> "victor" <> wrote in message
    >>>>>>>>> news:hldbo5$5ru$-september.org...
    >>>>>>>>>> impossible wrote:
    >>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>> "victor" <> wrote in message
    >>>>>>>>>>> news:hld11q$qdl$-september.org...
    >>>>>>>>>>>> impossible wrote:
    >>>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>>>> When all is said and done, there isn't a shred of evidence
    >>>>>>>>>>>>> that linux desktop usage exeeds a relative handful of
    >>>>>>>>>>>>> users. And it's a smaller handful today than just a year
    >>>>>>>>>>>>> ago. My theory: crap applicatijns written primarily by
    >>>>>>>>>>>>> wannabe or out-of-work devleopers. When someone develops an
    >>>>>>>>>>>>> application for the nix platform at a quality level
    >>>>>>>>>>>>> rivaling Adobe Phtoshop or Acrobat or Microsoft Office,
    >>>>>>>>>>>>> then linux usage will take off -- not until then.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>>> 30 million users is a relative handful compared to Windows.
    >>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>> That's what I said, yes.
    >>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>>> But its not possible to tell from any of the web page
    >>>>>>>>>>>> counter sources you quoted whether the number of users has
    >>>>>>>>>>>> increased or decreased over a year.
    >>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it is very possible. Just click through the
    >>>>>>>>>>> month-by-month stats here:
    >>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.w3counter.com/globalstats.php>
    >>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>>> Taking the wiki one as an example it shows small changes in
    >>>>>>>>>>>> percentages but that is on top of an increase overall and
    >>>>>>>>>>>> seasonal variations, its not possible to extract a signal
    >>>>>>>>>>>> from the noise
    >>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's very possible. Just click through the
    >>>>>>>>>>> month-by-month stats here:
    >>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.w3counter.com/globalstats.php>
    >>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>>> OTOH usage on Ubuntu's repositories is increasing with an
    >>>>>>>>>>>> estimated user population at 15m up from 8m in 2008.
    >>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>> What's matter with you? Too lazy to supply a reference?
    >>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>> Assuming you're right about the growth in Ubuntu use, that
    >>>>>>>>>>> doesn't contradict the evidence of an overall decline in
    >>>>>>>>>>> linuix desktop usage. Ubuntu users simply defected from other
    >>>>>>>>>>> distros. That's not growth, just enthusiasts climbing aboard
    >>>>>>>>>>> the latest bandwagon.
    >>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>>> My theory: If Adobes entire annual revenue came from
    >>>>>>>>>>>> Photoshop they would still have only sold 5 million copies
    >>>>>>>>>>>> last year.
    >>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>> ??? Translation , please.
    >>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>>> The availability of Photoshop on Linux at $699 wouldn't have
    >>>>>>>>>>>> much effect.
    >>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>> Why? Because linux usage is dominated today by freetards with
    >>>>>>>>>>> an annual software budget of zero? Pardon me for disturbing
    >>>>>>>>>>> your niche of free-as-in-beer mediocrity. But if Adobe comes
    >>>>>>>>>>> knocking on Ubuntu's door, I trust that Mark Shuttlesworth
    >>>>>>>>>>> won't be that foolish.
    >>>>>>>>>> Anyone who wants to use Photoshop professionally will get a Mac.
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> Whether or not you want to use an application "professionally"
    >>>>>>>>> is not the issue. Professional-quality apps developed by
    >>>>>>>>> professional software development teams are available for users
    >>>>>>>>> to run on the OsX and Windows platform, and the bar is set
    >>>>>>>>> high today for performance and features across a wide range of
    >>>>>>>>> user needs/interests. The same cannot be said for the linux
    >>>>>>>>> platform, and that is one of the main reasons that the growth
    >>>>>>>>> of linux has been stunted.
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> There is scope for Ubuntu to run an "apps store" but thats not
    >>>>>>>>>> what Shuttleworth seems to have in mind. Thats what Linspire
    >>>>>>>>>> did though, but yep the Ubuntu crowd likes free beer. mmmmmm
    >>>>>>>>>> beer.
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> Why are there no free, open-source apps to rival the quality of
    >>>>>>>>> Photoshop, Autocad, Microsoft Office, and so on? What's wrong
    >>>>>>>>> with the linux-inspired open-source development model that it
    >>>>>>>>> can't produce the goods? Why are linux desktop users confined
    >>>>>>>>> to using second-rate apps?
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> I've got several linux desktop machines, when I want to use
    >>>>>>>> something which runs exclusively on Windows, I use the Windows
    >>>>>>>> platform, its just another tool. I often use Open Office to open
    >>>>>>>> Excel spreadsheets, I keep some on Google Docs too. AutoCAD is
    >>>>>>>> great but I can view the pdfs I generate with it anywhere on any
    >>>>>>>> platform for free.
    >>>>>>>> It doesn't worry me that I have different operating systems for
    >>>>>>>> viewing web content. I buy some expensive software that only
    >>>>>>>> runs on Windows, it doesn't stop me also running free software
    >>>>>>>> that only runs on linux.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Few users seem to share your enthusiasm for booting a new "tool"
    >>>>>>> every time they want to run a different application. Hence the
    >>>>>>> decline of desktop linux usage.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> > So again -- Why should linux desktop users be confined to using >
    >>>>>> second-rate apps if that's their platform of choice? If the only >
    >>>>>> realistic option you can offer is to run Windows and linux >
    >>>>>> side-by-side, it begs the question as to why anyone would bother
    >>>>>> with > linux at all.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> I don't do that, I don't have any dual boot PCs.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Lame answer. Stop ducking the real issue.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> Running more copies than I need of expensive Windows only apps is
    >>>>>> a waste of money.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> shakes head> Few users seem to share your enthusiasm for setting up
    >>>>> a linux box just to view files they've created in Windows. Why
    >>>>> have open-source developers not created any professional-quality
    >>>>> applications that would allow linux users to function productively?
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>> They have, Firefox Thunderbird and OpenOffice are also quite popular
    >>>> on Windows.
    >>>
    >>> Photoshop, Autocad, and Microsoft Office are the kind of
    >>> professional-quality applications that drive Windows usage. Not
    >>> generic browsers and email clients.

    >>
    >> I see more Windows installs around without them with single apps on them
    >> Very few with Photoshop or Autocad
    >>>

    >
    > Your limited powers of observation notwithstanding, Photoshop, Autocad,
    > and Microsoft Office are the kind of professional-quality applications
    > that drive Windows usage. Not generic browsers and email clients.
    >

    Are you some Rip van Winkle type from the 1990s ?
    What drives Windows usage is computers being sold with Windows on them
    People buy them to use the internet.
    They don't piss around with bitmap editing all day or design buildings.
    They don't prepare complex reports or spreadsheets full of intricate
    macros. Open Office does their tasks easily.
    victor, Feb 18, 2010
    #18
  19. Gordon

    victor Guest

    victor, Feb 18, 2010
    #19
  20. Gordon

    victor Guest

    impossible wrote:

    >
    > Congratulation! This is pretty much the same list that SweatyPee used to
    > post 3-4 years ago. Munich, I note, is still in the "plans to migrate"
    > category -- a poster-child for tech incompetence if ever there was one.
    > And most of the rest seem to be evenly divided between declarations of
    > faith in the IBM/SUN odf format or the sort of marketing stunts that
    > NZOSS is plotting now: Get OO installed on a few Windows desktops
    > alongside Microsoft Office and then ---quick!!!! -- post the news on the
    > OO wiki before anyone stops to notice whether or not the program is
    > actually being used. Kind of pathetic.
    >
    > Plus, nothing new at all there since 2008, which -- bad news for you!
    > -- would tend to support the view that linux desktop usage is declining
    > and OO development is dead.
    >
    >


    Its more likely to have increased, they had 100 millionth download some
    time ago.

    The total global cad users of all types number about 6 million according
    to consultants so the percentage of Windows users with Autocad is a mere
    handful.

    The Windows version of Photoshop accounts for only 27% of Adobes
    Photoshop sales of a few million per year, so even with the rampant
    Photoshop piracy that Adobe acknowledges, its also a mere handful.

    So you are left with Microsoft Office which is mostly there because of
    bundling with Windows on new PCs
    victor, Feb 18, 2010
    #20
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