Re: Leica MF S-System [37.5 Mpix]

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Whiskers, Sep 18, 2012.

  1. Whiskers

    Whiskers Guest

    On 2012-09-18, Alan Browne <> wrote:
    > http://www.dpreview.com/news/2012/09/17/Leica-S-medium-format-lens
    >
    > Update to the "S2" is simply "S" and now includes GPS.
    >
    > $21,950.00
    >
    > (Free datacard if you order 2).


    Oh boy. Medium format (albeit rather small, at 30x45mm), lenses with
    movements and internal shutters, compatible with Hasselblad lenses, and
    made by Leica. Now, where did I put that small fortune I had? Or was it
    just a dream?

    --
    -- ^^^^^^^^^^
    -- Whiskers
    -- ~~~~~~~~~~
     
    Whiskers, Sep 18, 2012
    #1
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  2. Whiskers

    RichA Guest

    On Sep 18, 8:44 am, Whiskers <> wrote:
    > On 2012-09-18, Alan Browne <> wrote:
    >
    > >http://www.dpreview.com/news/2012/09/17/Leica-S-medium-format-lens

    >
    > > Update to the "S2" is simply "S" and now includes GPS.

    >
    > > $21,950.00

    >
    > > (Free datacard if you order 2).

    >
    > Oh boy.  Medium format (albeit rather small, at 30x45mm), lenses with
    > movements and internal shutters, compatible with Hasselblad lenses, and
    > made by Leica.  Now, where did I put that small fortune I had?  Or was it
    > just a dream?
    >


    And no larger than a Nikon or Canon FF pro body.
     
    RichA, Sep 23, 2012
    #2
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  3. Whiskers

    Me Guest

    On 23/09/2012 1:53 p.m., RichA wrote:
    > On Sep 18, 8:44 am, Whiskers <> wrote:
    >> On 2012-09-18, Alan Browne <> wrote:
    >>
    >>> http://www.dpreview.com/news/2012/09/17/Leica-S-medium-format-lens

    >>
    >>> Update to the "S2" is simply "S" and now includes GPS.

    >>
    >>> $21,950.00

    >>
    >>> (Free datacard if you order 2).

    >>
    >> Oh boy. Medium format (albeit rather small, at 30x45mm), lenses with
    >> movements and internal shutters, compatible with Hasselblad lenses, and
    >> made by Leica. Now, where did I put that small fortune I had? Or was it
    >> just a dream?
    >>

    >
    > And no larger than a Nikon or Canon FF pro body.
    >

    Regardless of other qualities, it's not comparable to a modern "pro"
    dslr body.
    The feature set is comparable to an 8 year old Canon 20d, just larger
    format, higher res, and faster sync speed.
     
    Me, Sep 23, 2012
    #3
  4. Whiskers

    Bruce Guest

    RichA <> wrote:
    >On Sep 18, 8:44 am, Whiskers <> wrote:
    >> On 2012-09-18, Alan Browne <> wrote:
    >>
    >> >http://www.dpreview.com/news/2012/09/17/Leica-S-medium-format-lens

    >>
    >> > Update to the "S2" is simply "S" and now includes GPS.

    >>
    >> > $21,950.00

    >>
    >> > (Free datacard if you order 2).

    >>
    >> Oh boy.  Medium format (albeit rather small, at 30x45mm), lenses with
    >> movements and internal shutters, compatible with Hasselblad lenses, and
    >> made by Leica.  Now, where did I put that small fortune I had?  Or was it
    >> just a dream?
    >>

    >
    >And no larger than a Nikon or Canon FF pro body.



    BUT ... lower pixel count than almost any medium format DSLR, the sole
    exception being the 31 MP Kodak sensor that was made to suit an
    entry-level market.

    AND ... at 37.5 MP it is only 1.5 MP ahead of the sensor in the Nikon
    D800[E] which has far better performance in low light.

    WHICH ... would explain its very low sales, along with the fact that
    Leica has not offered a seriously "professional" product line since
    the 1980s and is therefore creating a new market.
     
    Bruce, Sep 23, 2012
    #4
  5. Whiskers

    PeterN Guest

    On 9/23/2012 7:53 AM, Bruce wrote:
    > RichA <> wrote:
    >> On Sep 18, 8:44 am, Whiskers <> wrote:
    >>> On 2012-09-18, Alan Browne <> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> http://www.dpreview.com/news/2012/09/17/Leica-S-medium-format-lens
    >>>
    >>>> Update to the "S2" is simply "S" and now includes GPS.
    >>>
    >>>> $21,950.00
    >>>
    >>>> (Free datacard if you order 2).
    >>>
    >>> Oh boy. Medium format (albeit rather small, at 30x45mm), lenses with
    >>> movements and internal shutters, compatible with Hasselblad lenses, and
    >>> made by Leica. Now, where did I put that small fortune I had? Or was it
    >>> just a dream?
    >>>

    >>
    >> And no larger than a Nikon or Canon FF pro body.

    >
    >
    > BUT ... lower pixel count than almost any medium format DSLR, the sole
    > exception being the 31 MP Kodak sensor that was made to suit an
    > entry-level market.
    >
    > AND ... at 37.5 MP it is only 1.5 MP ahead of the sensor in the Nikon
    > D800[E] which has far better performance in low light.
    >
    > WHICH ... would explain its very low sales, along with the fact that
    > Leica has not offered a seriously "professional" product line since
    > the 1980s and is therefore creating a new market.
    >


    Most of us only listen to the opinions of those we respect.
    I have seen little respect for your opinion on anything. A salesman from
    any company gives you some marketing materials, and you blow hot air
    about having inside knowledge. With all my faults I would never want to
    be you. Indeed I can't think of anyone here who has a scintilla of
    respect for you.


    --
    Peter
     
    PeterN, Sep 23, 2012
    #5
  6. Me <> wrote:
    > On 23/09/2012 1:53 p.m., RichA wrote:
    >> On Sep 18, 8:44 am, Whiskers <> wrote:
    >>> On 2012-09-18, Alan Browne <> wrote:


    >>>> http://www.dpreview.com/news/2012/09/17/Leica-S-medium-format-lens


    >>>> Update to the "S2" is simply "S" and now includes GPS.


    >>>> $21,950.00


    >>>> (Free datacard if you order 2).


    >>> Oh boy. Medium format (albeit rather small, at 30x45mm), lenses with
    >>> movements and internal shutters, compatible with Hasselblad lenses, and
    >>> made by Leica. Now, where did I put that small fortune I had? Or was it
    >>> just a dream?


    >> And no larger than a Nikon or Canon FF pro body.


    > Regardless of other qualities, it's not comparable to a modern "pro"
    > dslr body.
    > The feature set is comparable to an 8 year old Canon 20d, just larger
    > format, higher res, and faster sync speed.


    The 20D is a fine camera. OK, the AF is a bit aged, there's no
    100% viewfinder and no lifeview and no video, the LCD is not that
    large, no microfocusadjust, no auto-ISO ...

    .... and the sensor isn't as noise free as newer cameras, but
    that's not important here. :)

    -Wolfgang
     
    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Sep 23, 2012
    #6
  7. Whiskers

    RichA Guest

    On Sep 23, 12:50 am, Me <> wrote:
    > On 23/09/2012 1:53 p.m., RichA wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > On Sep 18, 8:44 am, Whiskers <> wrote:
    > >> On 2012-09-18, Alan Browne <> wrote:

    >
    > >>>http://www.dpreview.com/news/2012/09/17/Leica-S-medium-format-lens

    >
    > >>> Update to the "S2" is simply "S" and now includes GPS.

    >
    > >>> $21,950.00

    >
    > >>> (Free datacard if you order 2).

    >
    > >> Oh boy.  Medium format (albeit rather small, at 30x45mm), lenses with
    > >> movements and internal shutters, compatible with Hasselblad lenses, and
    > >> made by Leica.  Now, where did I put that small fortune I had?  Orwas it
    > >> just a dream?

    >
    > > And no larger than a Nikon or Canon FF pro body.

    >
    > Regardless of other qualities, it's not comparable to a modern "pro"
    > dslr body.
    > The feature set is comparable to an 8 year old Canon 20d, just larger
    > format, higher res, and faster sync speed.


    Not the image quality though.
     
    RichA, Sep 26, 2012
    #7
  8. Whiskers

    Me Guest

    On 26/09/2012 8:21 p.m., RichA wrote:
    > On Sep 23, 12:50 am, Me <> wrote:
    >> On 23/09/2012 1:53 p.m., RichA wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>> On Sep 18, 8:44 am, Whiskers <> wrote:
    >>>> On 2012-09-18, Alan Browne <> wrote:

    >>
    >>>>> http://www.dpreview.com/news/2012/09/17/Leica-S-medium-format-lens

    >>
    >>>>> Update to the "S2" is simply "S" and now includes GPS.

    >>
    >>>>> $21,950.00

    >>
    >>>>> (Free datacard if you order 2).

    >>
    >>>> Oh boy. Medium format (albeit rather small, at 30x45mm), lenses with
    >>>> movements and internal shutters, compatible with Hasselblad lenses, and
    >>>> made by Leica. Now, where did I put that small fortune I had? Or was it
    >>>> just a dream?

    >>
    >>> And no larger than a Nikon or Canon FF pro body.

    >>
    >> Regardless of other qualities, it's not comparable to a modern "pro"
    >> dslr body.
    >> The feature set is comparable to an 8 year old Canon 20d, just larger
    >> format, higher res, and faster sync speed.

    >
    > Not the image quality though.
    >

    Yeah - but quality of image and image quality aren't the same thing,
    most makers have allowed for easier capture of a quality image as well
    as better image quality on average, but Leica seem to be stuck in the past.
    I'm sure the "S" is technically capable of producing some fine images,
    but with the number they'll sell, divided by the number of users who can
    use the thing to any advantage over a $100 K Mart camera, I doubt we'll
    be seeing many examples of the elusive "quality image".
     
    Me, Sep 26, 2012
    #8
  9. Whiskers

    Bruce Guest

    RichA <> wrote:
    >On Sep 23, 12:50 am, Me <> wrote:
    >> Regardless of other qualities, it's not comparable to a modern "pro"
    >> dslr body.
    >> The feature set is comparable to an 8 year old Canon 20d, just larger
    >> format, higher res, and faster sync speed.

    >
    >Not the image quality though.



    Nor the feature set. The Leica S2 was almost minimalist in terms of
    its feature set, and that was one of its strongest selling points.

    Most working photographers want little or nothing to do with the
    comprehensive feature sets so beloved of amateur enthusiasts. The
    vast majority of those features just get in the way.
     
    Bruce, Sep 26, 2012
    #9
  10. Whiskers

    Whiskers Guest

    On 2012-09-26, Bruce <> wrote:
    > RichA <> wrote:
    >>On Sep 23, 12:50 am, Me <> wrote:
    >>> Regardless of other qualities, it's not comparable to a modern "pro"
    >>> dslr body.
    >>> The feature set is comparable to an 8 year old Canon 20d, just larger
    >>> format, higher res, and faster sync speed.

    >>
    >>Not the image quality though.

    >
    >
    > Nor the feature set. The Leica S2 was almost minimalist in terms of
    > its feature set, and that was one of its strongest selling points.
    >
    > Most working photographers want little or nothing to do with the
    > comprehensive feature sets so beloved of amateur enthusiasts. The
    > vast majority of those features just get in the way.


    Here Here!

    I still haven't found digital replacements for the "proper" 35mm 'compacts'
    such as the Rollei 35 and Minox 35 and suchlike. I suspect the latest
    Leica M digital camera may be worthy of consideration as a true digital
    equivalent to my beloved M3 and M6 - almost.

    --
    -- ^^^^^^^^^^
    -- Whiskers
    -- ~~~~~~~~~~
     
    Whiskers, Sep 26, 2012
    #10
  11. Whiskers

    Bruce Guest

    Whiskers <> wrote:
    >On 2012-09-26, Bruce <> wrote:
    >> RichA <> wrote:
    >>>On Sep 23, 12:50 am, Me <> wrote:
    >>>> Regardless of other qualities, it's not comparable to a modern "pro"
    >>>> dslr body.
    >>>> The feature set is comparable to an 8 year old Canon 20d, just larger
    >>>> format, higher res, and faster sync speed.
    >>>
    >>>Not the image quality though.

    >>
    >>
    >> Nor the feature set. The Leica S2 was almost minimalist in terms of
    >> its feature set, and that was one of its strongest selling points.
    >>
    >> Most working photographers want little or nothing to do with the
    >> comprehensive feature sets so beloved of amateur enthusiasts. The
    >> vast majority of those features just get in the way.

    >
    >Here Here!
    >
    >I still haven't found digital replacements for the "proper" 35mm 'compacts'
    >such as the Rollei 35 and Minox 35 and suchlike.



    Sony has just released its RX1 model which has the same full frame
    24 MP sensor as the Sony A99 and Nikon D600. It has a fixed Carl
    Zeiss 35mm f/2 lens. So it's about the nearest thing in digital
    compacts to the 1970s/80s rangefinder cameras like the Canon GIII and
    Yashica Electro 35 GT/GS.

    http://tinyurl.com/8qjjdfl

    Only problem is the price: $2800.


    >I suspect the latest
    >Leica M digital camera may be worthy of consideration as a true digital
    >equivalent to my beloved M3 and M6 - almost.



    I have been using the M9/M9-P for over a year and am happy. I started
    with an M9 then found a used M9-P at a good price, so I bought it and
    sold the M9. However, the CCD sensor has its limitations. These seem
    to have been fully addressed in the new Leica M, but I will wait for
    comprehensive tests before I buy one.
     
    Bruce, Sep 27, 2012
    #11
  12. Whiskers

    Whiskers Guest

    On 2012-09-27, Bruce <> wrote:
    > Whiskers <> wrote:
    >>On 2012-09-26, Bruce <> wrote:
    >>> RichA <> wrote:
    >>>>On Sep 23, 12:50 am, Me <> wrote:
    >>>>> Regardless of other qualities, it's not comparable to a modern "pro"
    >>>>> dslr body.
    >>>>> The feature set is comparable to an 8 year old Canon 20d, just larger
    >>>>> format, higher res, and faster sync speed.
    >>>>
    >>>>Not the image quality though.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Nor the feature set. The Leica S2 was almost minimalist in terms of
    >>> its feature set, and that was one of its strongest selling points.
    >>>
    >>> Most working photographers want little or nothing to do with the
    >>> comprehensive feature sets so beloved of amateur enthusiasts. The
    >>> vast majority of those features just get in the way.

    >>
    >>Here Here!
    >>
    >>I still haven't found digital replacements for the "proper" 35mm 'compacts'
    >>such as the Rollei 35 and Minox 35 and suchlike.

    >
    >
    > Sony has just released its RX1 model which has the same full frame
    > 24 MP sensor as the Sony A99 and Nikon D600. It has a fixed Carl
    > Zeiss 35mm f/2 lens. So it's about the nearest thing in digital
    > compacts to the 1970s/80s rangefinder cameras like the Canon GIII and
    > Yashica Electro 35 GT/GS.
    >
    > http://tinyurl.com/8qjjdfl
    >
    > Only problem is the price: $2800.


    Yes, the signs are optimistic, but ...

    >>I suspect the latest
    >>Leica M digital camera may be worthy of consideration as a true digital
    >>equivalent to my beloved M3 and M6 - almost.

    >
    >
    > I have been using the M9/M9-P for over a year and am happy. I started
    > with an M9 then found a used M9-P at a good price, so I bought it and
    > sold the M9. However, the CCD sensor has its limitations. These seem
    > to have been fully addressed in the new Leica M, but I will wait for
    > comprehensive tests before I buy one.


    Fuji have some nice 'Leica-like' models at less exalted prices, including
    at least one fixed-prime-lens camera that comes close to the Rollei 35 -
    apart from being a lot bigger and rather expensive. Minox have shown
    promise with their "Digital Classics", which are certainly in the right
    sort of size range but seem rather gimmicky and fussy, and the "Digital Spy
    Camera" is interesting, but the sensors are small, and there's no RAW mode,
    and the manual controls are limited. Something in between would be very
    interesting.

    --
    -- ^^^^^^^^^^
    -- Whiskers
    -- ~~~~~~~~~~
     
    Whiskers, Sep 27, 2012
    #12
  13. Whiskers

    Rob Guest

    On 27/09/2012 8:26 PM, Bruce wrote:
    > Whiskers <> wrote:
    >> On 2012-09-26, Bruce <> wrote:
    >>> RichA <> wrote:
    >>>> On Sep 23, 12:50 am, Me <> wrote:
    >>>>> Regardless of other qualities, it's not comparable to a modern "pro"
    >>>>> dslr body.
    >>>>> The feature set is comparable to an 8 year old Canon 20d, just larger
    >>>>> format, higher res, and faster sync speed.
    >>>>
    >>>> Not the image quality though.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Nor the feature set. The Leica S2 was almost minimalist in terms of
    >>> its feature set, and that was one of its strongest selling points.
    >>>
    >>> Most working photographers want little or nothing to do with the
    >>> comprehensive feature sets so beloved of amateur enthusiasts. The
    >>> vast majority of those features just get in the way.

    >>
    >> Here Here!
    >>
    >> I still haven't found digital replacements for the "proper" 35mm 'compacts'
    >> such as the Rollei 35 and Minox 35 and suchlike.

    >
    >
    > Sony has just released its RX1 model which has the same full frame
    > 24 MP sensor as the Sony A99 and Nikon D600. It has a fixed Carl
    > Zeiss 35mm f/2 lens. So it's about the nearest thing in digital
    > compacts to the 1970s/80s rangefinder cameras like the Canon GIII and
    > Yashica Electro 35 GT/GS.
    >
    > http://tinyurl.com/8qjjdfl
    >
    > Only problem is the price: $2800.
    >
    >
    >> I suspect the latest
    >> Leica M digital camera may be worthy of consideration as a true digital
    >> equivalent to my beloved M3 and M6 - almost.

    >
    >
    > I have been using the M9/M9-P for over a year and am happy. I started
    > with an M9 then found a used M9-P at a good price, so I bought it and
    > sold the M9. However, the CCD sensor has its limitations. These seem
    > to have been fully addressed in the new Leica M, but I will wait for
    > comprehensive tests before I buy one.
    >
    >



    Who manufactures the sensor? suspect Sony who make the D800 sensor.
     
    Rob, Sep 28, 2012
    #13
  14. Whiskers

    Me Guest

    On 28/09/2012 11:46 a.m., Rob wrote:
    > On 27/09/2012 8:26 PM, Bruce wrote:
    >> Whiskers <> wrote:
    >>> On 2012-09-26, Bruce <> wrote:
    >>>> RichA <> wrote:
    >>>>> On Sep 23, 12:50 am, Me <> wrote:
    >>>>>> Regardless of other qualities, it's not comparable to a modern "pro"
    >>>>>> dslr body.
    >>>>>> The feature set is comparable to an 8 year old Canon 20d, just larger
    >>>>>> format, higher res, and faster sync speed.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Not the image quality though.
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> Nor the feature set. The Leica S2 was almost minimalist in terms of
    >>>> its feature set, and that was one of its strongest selling points.
    >>>>
    >>>> Most working photographers want little or nothing to do with the
    >>>> comprehensive feature sets so beloved of amateur enthusiasts. The
    >>>> vast majority of those features just get in the way.
    >>>
    >>> Here Here!
    >>>
    >>> I still haven't found digital replacements for the "proper" 35mm
    >>> 'compacts'
    >>> such as the Rollei 35 and Minox 35 and suchlike.

    >>
    >>
    >> Sony has just released its RX1 model which has the same full frame
    >> 24 MP sensor as the Sony A99 and Nikon D600. It has a fixed Carl
    >> Zeiss 35mm f/2 lens. So it's about the nearest thing in digital
    >> compacts to the 1970s/80s rangefinder cameras like the Canon GIII and
    >> Yashica Electro 35 GT/GS.
    >>
    >> http://tinyurl.com/8qjjdfl
    >>
    >> Only problem is the price: $2800.
    >>
    >>
    >>> I suspect the latest
    >>> Leica M digital camera may be worthy of consideration as a true digital
    >>> equivalent to my beloved M3 and M6 - almost.

    >>
    >>
    >> I have been using the M9/M9-P for over a year and am happy. I started
    >> with an M9 then found a used M9-P at a good price, so I bought it and
    >> sold the M9. However, the CCD sensor has its limitations. These seem
    >> to have been fully addressed in the new Leica M, but I will wait for
    >> comprehensive tests before I buy one.
    >>
    >>

    >
    >
    > Who manufactures the sensor? suspect Sony who make the D800 sensor.


    Not Sony.
    http://www.cmosis.com/
     
    Me, Sep 28, 2012
    #14
  15. Whiskers

    Bruce Guest

    Rob <> wrote:

    >On 27/09/2012 8:26 PM, Bruce wrote:
    >> Whiskers <> wrote:
    >>> On 2012-09-26, Bruce <> wrote:
    >>>> RichA <> wrote:
    >>>>> On Sep 23, 12:50 am, Me <> wrote:
    >>>>>> Regardless of other qualities, it's not comparable to a modern "pro"
    >>>>>> dslr body.
    >>>>>> The feature set is comparable to an 8 year old Canon 20d, just larger
    >>>>>> format, higher res, and faster sync speed.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Not the image quality though.
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> Nor the feature set. The Leica S2 was almost minimalist in terms of
    >>>> its feature set, and that was one of its strongest selling points.
    >>>>
    >>>> Most working photographers want little or nothing to do with the
    >>>> comprehensive feature sets so beloved of amateur enthusiasts. The
    >>>> vast majority of those features just get in the way.
    >>>
    >>> Here Here!
    >>>
    >>> I still haven't found digital replacements for the "proper" 35mm 'compacts'
    >>> such as the Rollei 35 and Minox 35 and suchlike.

    >>
    >>
    >> Sony has just released its RX1 model which has the same full frame
    >> 24 MP sensor as the Sony A99 and Nikon D600. It has a fixed Carl
    >> Zeiss 35mm f/2 lens. So it's about the nearest thing in digital
    >> compacts to the 1970s/80s rangefinder cameras like the Canon GIII and
    >> Yashica Electro 35 GT/GS.
    >>
    >> http://tinyurl.com/8qjjdfl
    >>
    >> Only problem is the price: $2800.
    >>
    >>
    >>> I suspect the latest
    >>> Leica M digital camera may be worthy of consideration as a true digital
    >>> equivalent to my beloved M3 and M6 - almost.

    >>
    >>
    >> I have been using the M9/M9-P for over a year and am happy. I started
    >> with an M9 then found a used M9-P at a good price, so I bought it and
    >> sold the M9. However, the CCD sensor has its limitations. These seem
    >> to have been fully addressed in the new Leica M, but I will wait for
    >> comprehensive tests before I buy one.
    >>
    >>

    >
    >
    >Who manufactures the sensor? suspect Sony who make the D800 sensor.



    The 24 MP CMOS sensor in the new Leica M was designed and made in
    Europe by the Belgian company CMOSIS. It is unique in that the
    microlenses over the photoreceptors on the sensor have a particularly
    wide angle of acceptance.

    http://www.cmosis.com/
    http://tinyurl.com/CMOSISLeicaMSensor
     
    Bruce, Sep 28, 2012
    #15
  16. Whiskers

    Me Guest

    On 28/09/2012 12:06 p.m., Bruce wrote:

    >
    >It is unique in that the
    > microlenses over the photoreceptors on the sensor have a particularly
    > wide angle of acceptance.

    Yeah? blah bah Leica blah blah.
    Blah blah Nikon blah blah:
    http://imaging.nikon.com/history/scenes/24/index.htm
    Blah blah Canon Blah blah:
    http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/education/infobank/capturing_the_image/microlenses.do
    Blah blah - talk is cheap - especially when it's about something that's
    not easy for the customer to measure, and that customer has been
    "tenderised for consumption" long beforehand - so will probably just see
    what he wants to see.
     
    Me, Sep 28, 2012
    #16
  17. Whiskers

    Whiskers Guest

    On 2012-09-27, Whiskers <> wrote:

    [...]

    > Camera" is interesting, but the sensors are small, and there's no RAW mode,
    > and the manual controls are limited. Something in between would be very
    > interesting.


    I don't know where that Ctrl-L came from, but here is that bit again
    without it in case it upset anyone's software. Sorry!

    --
    -- ^^^^^^^^^^
    -- Whiskers
    -- ~~~~~~~~~~
     
    Whiskers, Sep 28, 2012
    #17
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