Re: If You Think Clean Coal Technology Is The Answer

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Mr.T, Dec 29, 2008.

  1. Mr.T

    Mr.T Guest

    "Bill Graham" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Here
    > in Oregon, we are having the coldest winter we have had in over 40
    > years.....I haven't heard Al Gore's explanation for that. But there is a
    > hell of a lot of hand waving goin' on........


    That's why they now call it "climate change" instead of "global warming",
    and as you said it's happened many times before in the earths history.
    Homo Sapiens wouldn't even exist if it hadn't!

    MrT.
     
    Mr.T, Dec 29, 2008
    #1
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  2. Mr.T

    DRS Guest

    "Mr.T" <MrT@home> wrote in message
    news:49587b5e$0$20808$
    > "Bill Graham" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> Here
    >> in Oregon, we are having the coldest winter we have had in over 40
    >> years.....I haven't heard Al Gore's explanation for that. But there
    >> is a hell of a lot of hand waving goin' on........

    >
    > That's why they now call it "climate change" instead of "global
    > warming", and as you said it's happened many times before in the
    > earths history. Homo Sapiens wouldn't even exist if it hadn't!


    Which nobody is denying so why bring it up?
     
    DRS, Dec 29, 2008
    #2
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  3. In rec.photo.digital Mr.T <MrT@home> wrote:

    > "Bill Graham" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> Here
    >> in Oregon, we are having the coldest winter we have had in over 40
    >> years.....I haven't heard Al Gore's explanation for that. But there is a
    >> hell of a lot of hand waving goin' on........


    > That's why they now call it "climate change" instead of "global warming",
    > and as you said it's happened many times before in the earths history.
    > Homo Sapiens wouldn't even exist if it hadn't!


    It's not a problem for the planet, which has been through many worse
    climate changes before. It probably won't be a problem for the
    survival of Homo Sapiens, which has proved capable of surviving in a
    hunter gatherer lifestyle from the tropics to the arctic.

    It's a problem for our current rather fragile and short sighted human
    civilisation and governments. How is a country which made such a mess
    of coping with New Orleans being flooded going to cope with New York
    under water? How is a world which can't cope with local rice shortages
    going to cope with local water shortages?

    --
    Chris Malcolm
     
    Chris Malcolm, Dec 29, 2008
    #3
  4. Mr.T

    Chris H Guest

    In message <>, Chris Malcolm
    <> writes
    >In rec.photo.digital Mr.T <MrT@home> wrote:
    >
    >> "Bill Graham" <> wrote in message
    >> news:...
    >>> Here
    >>> in Oregon, we are having the coldest winter we have had in over 40
    >>> years.....I haven't heard Al Gore's explanation for that. But there is a
    >>> hell of a lot of hand waving goin' on........

    >
    >> That's why they now call it "climate change" instead of "global warming",
    >> and as you said it's happened many times before in the earths history.
    >> Homo Sapiens wouldn't even exist if it hadn't!

    >
    >It's not a problem for the planet, which has been through many worse
    >climate changes before. It probably won't be a problem for the
    >survival of Homo Sapiens, which has proved capable of surviving in a
    >hunter gatherer lifestyle from the tropics to the arctic.
    >
    >It's a problem for our current rather fragile and short sighted human
    >civilisation and governments. How is a country which made such a mess
    >of coping with New Orleans being flooded going to cope with New York
    >under water?


    Good question. Look at what happened a few years back when there were
    power outages in LA and NY.... civil order started to break down in
    hours.


    >How is a world which can't cope with local rice shortages
    >going to cope with local water shortages?


    The rest of the world will cope with those problems as it does now.
    There are local rice and water shortages all over the place. They are
    not uncommon.

    However these disruptions and hic-ups will get more wide spread and more
    common. Some countries will be more able to survive than others. Urban
    centres are likely to suffer most I think which means the more
    industrialised countries. So the US has just changed it's economic
    model in the nick of time :)

    --
    \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
    \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
    \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
     
    Chris H, Dec 29, 2008
    #4
  5. Mr.T

    J. Clarke Guest

    Chris Malcolm wrote:
    > In rec.photo.digital Mr.T <MrT@home> wrote:
    >
    >> "Bill Graham" <> wrote in message
    >> news:...
    >>> Here
    >>> in Oregon, we are having the coldest winter we have had in over 40
    >>> years.....I haven't heard Al Gore's explanation for that. But
    >>> there
    >>> is a hell of a lot of hand waving goin' on........

    >
    >> That's why they now call it "climate change" instead of "global
    >> warming", and as you said it's happened many times before in the
    >> earths history. Homo Sapiens wouldn't even exist if it hadn't!

    >
    > It's not a problem for the planet, which has been through many worse
    > climate changes before. It probably won't be a problem for the
    > survival of Homo Sapiens, which has proved capable of surviving in a
    > hunter gatherer lifestyle from the tropics to the arctic.
    >
    > It's a problem for our current rather fragile and short sighted
    > human
    > civilisation and governments. How is a country which made such a
    > mess
    > of coping with New Orleans being flooded going to cope with New York
    > under water?


    The devil in me wants to say "by having a 'good riddance' party". Los
    Angeles and DC the same--pity the politicians can't be made to stay
    there while it floods though.

    But look at the projections. They're talking 2 degrees in the next
    100 years. That's not going to melt Antarctica or Greenland and so
    the flooding scenario isn't in the cards. They want you to _think_
    that it is though.

    > How is a world which can't cope with local rice shortages
    > going to cope with local water shortages?


    So let's see, there's going to be widespread flooding but there's
    going to be a water shortage.

    --
    --
    --John
    to email, dial "usenet" and validate
    (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
     
    J. Clarke, Dec 29, 2008
    #5
  6. Mr.T

    Cynicor Guest

    J. Clarke wrote:
    >
    > But look at the projections. They're talking 2 degrees in the next
    > 100 years. That's not going to melt Antarctica or Greenland and so
    > the flooding scenario isn't in the cards. They want you to _think_
    > that it is though.


    Er...I don't think you understand what a 2 degree average increase in
    100 years would cause.

    >> How is a world which can't cope with local rice shortages
    >> going to cope with local water shortages?

    >
    > So let's see, there's going to be widespread flooding but there's
    > going to be a water shortage.


    Er...I don't think you understand the difference between flood water and
    potable water.
     
    Cynicor, Dec 29, 2008
    #6
  7. Mr.T

    Keith nuttle Guest

    Cynicor wrote:
    > J. Clarke wrote:
    >>
    >> But look at the projections. They're talking 2 degrees in the next
    >> 100 years. That's not going to melt Antarctica or Greenland and so
    >> the flooding scenario isn't in the cards. They want you to _think_
    >> that it is though.

    >
    > Er...I don't think you understand what a 2 degree average increase in
    > 100 years would cause.
    >
    >>> How is a world which can't cope with local rice shortages
    >>> going to cope with local water shortages?

    >>
    >> So let's see, there's going to be widespread flooding but there's
    >> going to be a water shortage.

    >
    > Er...I don't think you understand the difference between flood water and
    > potable water.

    Would you publish the statistical analysis that you used to show that
    you can detect a 2 degree rise in the temperature of the planet with
    about as 100 degree temperature range over the surface of the earth each
    day of the year?
     
    Keith nuttle, Dec 29, 2008
    #7
  8. Mr.T

    Chris H Guest

    In message <>, J. Clarke
    <> writes
    >Chris Malcolm wrote:
    >> In rec.photo.digital Mr.T <MrT@home> wrote:
    >>
    >>> "Bill Graham" <> wrote in message
    >>> news:...
    >>>> Here
    >>>> in Oregon, we are having the coldest winter we have had in over 40
    >>>> years.....I haven't heard Al Gore's explanation for that. But
    >>>> there
    >>>> is a hell of a lot of hand waving goin' on........

    >>
    >>> That's why they now call it "climate change" instead of "global
    >>> warming", and as you said it's happened many times before in the
    >>> earths history. Homo Sapiens wouldn't even exist if it hadn't!

    >>
    >> It's not a problem for the planet, which has been through many worse
    >> climate changes before. It probably won't be a problem for the
    >> survival of Homo Sapiens, which has proved capable of surviving in a
    >> hunter gatherer lifestyle from the tropics to the arctic.
    >>
    >> It's a problem for our current rather fragile and short sighted
    >> human
    >> civilisation and governments. How is a country which made such a
    >> mess
    >> of coping with New Orleans being flooded going to cope with New York
    >> under water?

    >
    >The devil in me wants to say "by having a 'good riddance' party". Los
    >Angeles and DC the same--pity the politicians can't be made to stay
    >there while it floods though.
    >
    >But look at the projections. They're talking 2 degrees in the next
    >100 years. That's not going to melt Antarctica or Greenland and so
    >the flooding scenario isn't in the cards. They want you to _think_
    >that it is though.


    The ICE caps ARE melting though it is happening. The 2degrees is an
    Average figure.

    >> How is a world which can't cope with local rice shortages
    >> going to cope with local water shortages?

    >
    >So let's see, there's going to be widespread flooding but there's
    >going to be a water shortage.


    That's right. Some areas will be flooded (and have a shortage of
    drinking water) Other areas will have droughts

    --
    \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
    \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
    \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
     
    Chris H, Dec 29, 2008
    #8
  9. Mr.T

    Cynicor Guest

    Keith nuttle wrote:
    > Cynicor wrote:
    >> J. Clarke wrote:
    >>>
    >>> But look at the projections. They're talking 2 degrees in the next
    >>> 100 years. That's not going to melt Antarctica or Greenland and so
    >>> the flooding scenario isn't in the cards. They want you to _think_
    >>> that it is though.

    >>
    >> Er...I don't think you understand what a 2 degree average increase in
    >> 100 years would cause.
    >>
    >>>> How is a world which can't cope with local rice shortages
    >>>> going to cope with local water shortages?
    >>>
    >>> So let's see, there's going to be widespread flooding but there's
    >>> going to be a water shortage.

    >>
    >> Er...I don't think you understand the difference between flood water
    >> and potable water.

    > Would you publish the statistical analysis that you used to show that
    > you can detect a 2 degree rise in the temperature of the planet with
    > about as 100 degree temperature range over the surface of the earth each
    > day of the year?


    Are you actually serious with this statement? You don't believe that
    measurements can detect variations in mean temperatures because some
    parts of the world are warmer than others? Or have you just never seen
    any measurements?
     
    Cynicor, Dec 29, 2008
    #9
  10. Mr.T

    Cynicor Guest

    Chris H wrote:
    >>
    >> But look at the projections. They're talking 2 degrees in the next
    >> 100 years. That's not going to melt Antarctica or Greenland and so
    >> the flooding scenario isn't in the cards. They want you to _think_
    >> that it is though.

    >
    > The ICE caps ARE melting though it is happening. The 2degrees is an
    > Average figure.


    Arctic ice is melting a lot faster than Antarctic. But it's a simple
    fact that the Arctic ice cover is quickly retreating. Which, in turn,
    leads to lessened reflectivity and more heat absorption, which leads to
    faster warming.

    It's just amazingly specious for people to say "but it's only 20 degrees
    there, so 2 degrees isn't going to melt anything."

    And no, 2 degrees doesn't cause flooding. It's the effects of the 2
    degrees that will cause more frequent "100 year" flooding. If people
    don't think that human activity has any effect on habitability, I invite
    them to compare maps of southern Louisiana 50 years ago versus today.


    >>> How is a world which can't cope with local rice shortages
    >>> going to cope with local water shortages?

    >>
    >> So let's see, there's going to be widespread flooding but there's
    >> going to be a water shortage.

    >
    > That's right. Some areas will be flooded (and have a shortage of
    > drinking water) Other areas will have droughts


    Other areas will get invasive plants that don't die when there's no
    longer a hard frost. And they will lose species that need a frost to
    properly germinate the next year.
     
    Cynicor, Dec 29, 2008
    #10
  11. Mr.T

    Chris H Guest

    In message <>, Alan Browne
    <> writes
    >J. Clarke wrote:
    >> So let's see, there's going to be widespread flooding but there's
    >>going to be a water shortage.

    >
    >Salt water ain't too good for drinking.


    Nor water containing sewage or other waste


    --
    \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
    \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
    \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
     
    Chris H, Dec 29, 2008
    #11
  12. Mr.T

    Cynicor Guest

    Chris H wrote:
    > In message <>, Alan Browne
    > <> writes
    >> J. Clarke wrote:
    >>> So let's see, there's going to be widespread flooding but there's
    >>> going to be a water shortage.

    >>
    >> Salt water ain't too good for drinking.

    >
    > Nor water containing sewage or other waste


    Nor is Evian. But that's another tangent.
     
    Cynicor, Dec 29, 2008
    #12
  13. Mr.T

    J. Clarke Guest

    Cynicor wrote:
    > J. Clarke wrote:
    >>
    >> But look at the projections. They're talking 2 degrees in the next
    >> 100 years. That's not going to melt Antarctica or Greenland and so
    >> the flooding scenario isn't in the cards. They want you to _think_
    >> that it is though.

    >
    > Er...I don't think you understand what a 2 degree average increase
    > in
    > 100 years would cause.


    So tell us what it would cause. And tell us how you know this.

    >>> How is a world which can't cope with local rice shortages
    >>> going to cope with local water shortages?

    >>
    >> So let's see, there's going to be widespread flooding but there's
    >> going to be a water shortage.

    >
    > Er...I don't think you understand the difference between flood water
    > and potable water.


    What's the difference, you have to filter all of it. Even the Greeks
    4000 years ago knew this.

    --
    --
    --John
    to email, dial "usenet" and validate
    (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
     
    J. Clarke, Dec 29, 2008
    #13
  14. Mr.T

    J. Clarke Guest

    Cynicor wrote:
    > Chris H wrote:
    >>>
    >>> But look at the projections. They're talking 2 degrees in the
    >>> next
    >>> 100 years. That's not going to melt Antarctica or Greenland and
    >>> so
    >>> the flooding scenario isn't in the cards. They want you to
    >>> _think_
    >>> that it is though.

    >>
    >> The ICE caps ARE melting though it is happening. The 2degrees is an
    >> Average figure.

    >
    > Arctic ice is melting a lot faster than Antarctic.


    So what?

    > But it's a simple
    > fact that the Arctic ice cover is quickly retreating. Which, in
    > turn,
    > leads to lessened reflectivity and more heat absorption, which leads
    > to faster warming.


    So what?

    > It's just amazingly specious for people to say "but it's only 20
    > degrees there, so 2 degrees isn't going to melt anything."


    So what's going to melt in the Antarctic?

    > And no, 2 degrees doesn't cause flooding. It's the effects of the 2
    > degrees that will cause more frequent "100 year" flooding. If people
    > don't think that human activity has any effect on habitability, I
    > invite them to compare maps of southern Louisiana 50 years ago
    > versus
    > today.


    How about comparing them 200 years ago vs today?

    >>>> How is a world which can't cope with local rice shortages
    >>>> going to cope with local water shortages?
    >>>
    >>> So let's see, there's going to be widespread flooding but there's
    >>> going to be a water shortage.

    >>
    >> That's right. Some areas will be flooded (and have a shortage of
    >> drinking water) Other areas will have droughts

    >
    > Other areas will get invasive plants that don't die when there's no
    > longer a hard frost. And they will lose species that need a frost to
    > properly germinate the next year.


    And gain species that don't survive the frost. Which would you rather
    have, tulips or oranges?

    --
    --
    --John
    to email, dial "usenet" and validate
    (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
     
    J. Clarke, Dec 29, 2008
    #14
  15. Mr.T

    ASAAR Guest

    On 29 Dec 2008 12:22:00 GMT, Chris Malcolm wrote:

    > How is a country which made such a mess of coping with New Orleans
    > being flooded going to cope with New York under water?


    By taking lots of different pictures with their weather sealed
    cameras, watching reruns of Planet Of The Apes, by looting and by
    having a stupendous Going Out Of Sale blowout party.
     
    ASAAR, Dec 29, 2008
    #15
  16. Mr.T

    Mr.T Guest

    "J. Clarke" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > So let's see, there's going to be widespread flooding but there's
    > going to be a water shortage.


    Unless you can drink sea water, it's quite possible.
    Desalinisation plants to cope with 6+ Billion users, in a time of energy
    shortages, is hardly a solution.

    MrT.
     
    Mr.T, Dec 30, 2008
    #16
  17. Mr.T

    Chris H Guest

    In message <>, Bill Graham
    <> writes
    >
    >"Chris H" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> In message <>, Alan
    >>Browne <> writes
    >>>J. Clarke wrote:
    >>>> So let's see, there's going to be widespread flooding but there's
    >>>>going to be a water shortage.
    >>>
    >>>Salt water ain't too good for drinking.

    >>
    >> Nor water containing sewage or other waste
    >>

    >Sewer water + heat = fresh water


    If you say so. SO how do you do that in a flood situation?

    I note that In New Orleans the one thing they were taking in was large
    quantities was bottled water...

    Clearly the authorities have not heard of your simple remedy.



    --
    \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
    \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
    \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
     
    Chris H, Dec 30, 2008
    #17
  18. Mr.T

    Chris H Guest

    In message <49598516$0$32004$>, Mr.T
    <MrT@home.?.invalid> writes
    >
    >"J. Clarke" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> So let's see, there's going to be widespread flooding but there's
    >> going to be a water shortage.

    >
    >Unless you can drink sea water, it's quite possible.
    >Desalinisation plants to cope with 6+ Billion users, in a time of energy
    >shortages, is hardly a solution.


    According to the idiot Bill it is simple
    salt water + heat = fresh water..

    Bit light on detail though

    --
    \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
    \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
    \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
     
    Chris H, Dec 30, 2008
    #18
  19. Mr.T

    Paul Furman Guest

    Bill Graham wrote:
    > Chris H wrote in message
    >>
    >> Clearly the authorities have not heard of your simple remedy.


    > The remedy may be simple, but it isn't cheap.....Desalination plants are
    > expensive to build and operate......It is a solution only if power is
    > cheap, and that pretty well means nuclear plants to create the
    > electricity.....The quality of the water is, however, wonderful.....We
    > drank it in the US Navy, because the ship had to have very pure water
    > for it's steam turbines or they would get crudded up with salt
    > deposits......I believe the ultimate solution is to have two separate
    > water systems....A drinking water plant, that makes good drinking water
    > in limited quantities, and other plants that just purify the water with
    > a primary treatment process that is adequate for feeding to plants and
    > washing cars and the like, but not of drinkable quality.....


    'Purple pipe' gray water is used for irrigation in some places. You can
    install a gray water system in your home to drain to the garden but
    nobody installs a complete dual plumbing system to every sink in the
    house & no municipality has installed dual supply lines to residences.
    That would be a lot of tearing up streets.
     
    Paul Furman, Dec 30, 2008
    #19
  20. On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 15:54:22 -0600, HEMI - Powered wrote:

    > Alan Browne added these comments in the current discussion du jour
    > ...
    >
    >>>> It has been demonstrated that a vehicle built from carbon
    >>>> fibre has compounding weight weight reduction effects that
    >>>> drastically reduce energy requirements. Further, such a
    >>>> vehicle would last 50 years or more requiring only that the
    >>>> engine and drive train be replaced ... not 1000's of pounds of
    >>>> steel.
    >>>>
    >>>> eg: lighter body = smaller engine = lighter drive drain =
    >>>> lighter wheels = lighter brakes = even smaller engine =
    >>>> smaller fuel tank = smaller car, etc. etc. etc.
    >>>>
    >>>> No. Despite the clear warning of the 70's we built Hummers.
    >>>
    >>> Even better, a carbon fiber vehicle is way stronger and safer
    >>> than current vehicles. Those interested can learn much at the
    >>> Rocky Mountain Institute website.

    >>
    >> That's precisely the source (via PBS-Nova, one of the best
    >> programs the general public ignores.)
    >>

    > That's all swell, except the carbon fiber is many times more
    > expensive to build cars from than sheet steel, is many times more
    > difficult to mold into complex shapes, and has a nasty habit of
    > exploding into sharp shards when crashed IF not properly reinforced
    > with steel. The notion of reducing weight enough with any
    > structural material, including carbon fiber, to reduce engine size
    > and hp enough to make any real difference is both absurd and
    > irresponsible and shows that people advocating such extreme
    > measures know nothing at all about the automobile industry.


    Still promoting the non-fact that YOU know the Auto Industry, Mr.
    non-Engineer and overpaid subordinate automobile rear seat designer?

    A fable in your sick little cranium.


    G


    --
    Scarecrow: I haven't got a brain... only straw.
    Dorothy: How can you talk if you haven't got a brain?
    Scarecrow: I don't know... But some people without brains do an awful lot
    of talking... don't they?
    Dorothy: Yes, I guess you're right.

    -- Wizard Of Oz
     
    Gaston Ryan Coake, Dec 30, 2008
    #20
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