Re: HP OJ d145 color ink out error replace color ink cartridge message

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Aluxe, Oct 19, 2006.

  1. Aluxe

    Aluxe Guest

    On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 16:17:52 GMT, Jette Goldie wrote:

    > On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 05:44:56 GMT, Deborah Pace wrote:
    >> Does anyone know what the HP OfficeJet D145 message means
    >> "Color ink out. Replace color ink cartridge."

    >
    > I'm really in a bind as the printer won't work.
    > I've tried two different color ink cartridges (all filled to the brim).
    > Doesn't ANYONE in HP land know what this Hewlett Packard office jet printer
    > error really indicates?
    >
    > Deb


    Do what I do when I get that hewlett packass color ink out message.
    Actually, I always get black ink out but it's the same thing.
    Just shut the hewlett packard office jet printer off.
    Pull the power cord.
    Let it sit a day or two.
    Always in my case, the color ink out or black in out message is gone.
    Until it reappears for no good reason a month, a week, a year later.
    I have never figure out why that message comes up as I always keep the ink
    sponges soaking wet with good quality ink (better than the crap hewlett
    packard puts in as oem ink that's for sure!).
    Aluxe, Oct 19, 2006
    #1
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  2. Aluxe

    Aluxe Guest

    What I think happens, at least with my HP printer, is that you can only
    TEMPORARILY turn off the color ink drop counting!

    Someone at HP can tell us if this is true ... but what I think happens is
    you turn off the color and black ink checking with the double-arrow 456 and
    double-arrow 389 sequence ... BUT ... (and this is a big but) ...

    What you think you turned off, secretly turns itself back on the very next
    time you reboot your HP printer! Yup.

    What seems to happen is:
    - You turn off color and black ink checking
    - You print a few pages and then at some point, power down the printer
    - When you power the printer back up, the ink checking is back on
    - But you don't know that (how can you tell)
    - So, even though you fill the cartridges to the brim
    - The printer is counting drops and saying it's empty at some point
    - Notice that if HP REALLY wanted to tell how much ink was there
    - They'd use a more reliable and cheaper method (of which there are many)

    Point is, the system is rigged so that you have to turn off the ink drop
    checking EVERY SINGLE TIME you turn the HP printer on.

    If you ask me, HP printers aren't worth the hassle!
    Aluxe, Oct 22, 2006
    #2
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  3. Aluxe

    Bob Headrick Guest

    "Aluxe" <> wrote in message
    news:1p60i4rhx00aj$.64oohslwgah$...

    > What seems to happen is:
    > - You turn off color and black ink checking
    > - You print a few pages and then at some point, power down the printer
    > - When you power the printer back up, the ink checking is back on
    > - But you don't know that (how can you tell)
    > - So, even though you fill the cartridges to the brim
    > - The printer is counting drops and saying it's empty at some point
    > - Notice that if HP REALLY wanted to tell how much ink was there
    > - They'd use a more reliable and cheaper method (of which there are
    > many)


    I would love to hear about a "more reliable and cheaper method" of
    detecting the amount of ink remaining.... I suspect you do not have a
    clue about how these things work, or why the printer should/would care
    about remaining ink.

    - Bob Headrick, MS MVP Printing/Imaging
    Bob Headrick, Oct 22, 2006
    #3
  4. Aluxe

    Tony Guest

    Aluxe <> wrote:
    >What I think happens, at least with my HP printer, is that you can only
    >TEMPORARILY turn off the color ink drop counting!
    >
    >Someone at HP can tell us if this is true ... but what I think happens is
    >you turn off the color and black ink checking with the double-arrow 456 and
    >double-arrow 389 sequence ... BUT ... (and this is a big but) ...
    >
    >What you think you turned off, secretly turns itself back on the very next
    >time you reboot your HP printer! Yup.
    >
    >What seems to happen is:
    >- You turn off color and black ink checking
    >- You print a few pages and then at some point, power down the printer
    >- When you power the printer back up, the ink checking is back on
    >- But you don't know that (how can you tell)
    >- So, even though you fill the cartridges to the brim
    >- The printer is counting drops and saying it's empty at some point
    >- Notice that if HP REALLY wanted to tell how much ink was there
    >- They'd use a more reliable and cheaper method (of which there are many)
    >
    >Point is, the system is rigged so that you have to turn off the ink drop
    >checking EVERY SINGLE TIME you turn the HP printer on.
    >
    >If you ask me, HP printers aren't worth the hassle!


    The printer is simply protecting the printhead (your printhead). If ink is not
    supplied to the printhead then it will fail, this is true of all inkjet
    printheads regardless of who the manufacturer is. This printer uses separate
    printheads and ink containers, if it used combined heads and ink containers
    then this would not be an issue.
    It seems to me that you are making a slightly paranoid assumption. HP does not,
    to my knowledge, build trickery into their printers.
    Tony
    Tony, Oct 22, 2006
    #4
  5. Aluxe

    Ben Myers Guest

    It all depends on what one means by the word "trickery." Just like the
    meaning of the words "is" and "sex". Is it trickery to design inkjet printers
    with small cartridges that need regular and expensive replacement? Is it
    trickery to embed circuits in the cartridges to prevent refilling?

    .... Ben Myers

    On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 02:13:28 -0500, Tony <> wrote:

    >Aluxe <> wrote:
    >>What I think happens, at least with my HP printer, is that you can only
    >>TEMPORARILY turn off the color ink drop counting!
    >>
    >>Someone at HP can tell us if this is true ... but what I think happens is
    >>you turn off the color and black ink checking with the double-arrow 456 and
    >>double-arrow 389 sequence ... BUT ... (and this is a big but) ...
    >>
    >>What you think you turned off, secretly turns itself back on the very next
    >>time you reboot your HP printer! Yup.
    >>
    >>What seems to happen is:
    >>- You turn off color and black ink checking
    >>- You print a few pages and then at some point, power down the printer
    >>- When you power the printer back up, the ink checking is back on
    >>- But you don't know that (how can you tell)
    >>- So, even though you fill the cartridges to the brim
    >>- The printer is counting drops and saying it's empty at some point
    >>- Notice that if HP REALLY wanted to tell how much ink was there
    >>- They'd use a more reliable and cheaper method (of which there are many)
    >>
    >>Point is, the system is rigged so that you have to turn off the ink drop
    >>checking EVERY SINGLE TIME you turn the HP printer on.
    >>
    >>If you ask me, HP printers aren't worth the hassle!

    >
    >The printer is simply protecting the printhead (your printhead). If ink is not
    >supplied to the printhead then it will fail, this is true of all inkjet
    >printheads regardless of who the manufacturer is. This printer uses separate
    >printheads and ink containers, if it used combined heads and ink containers
    >then this would not be an issue.
    >It seems to me that you are making a slightly paranoid assumption. HP does not,
    >to my knowledge, build trickery into their printers.
    >Tony
    Ben Myers, Oct 22, 2006
    #5
  6. Aluxe

    Aluxe Guest

    On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 02:13:28 -0500, Tony wrote:
    > The printer is simply protecting the printhead (your printhead).
    > This printer uses separate printheads and ink containers
    > If ink is not supplied to the printhead then it will fai
    > HP does not ... build trickery into their printers.


    Hi Tony,
    But, do you have an answer to the OP's question?
    Seems to me I'm the only one who answered the original question.
    If you have a better answer ... you should tell us what the message "Color
    Ink Out" or "Black Ink Out" means because it certainly doesn't mean the ink
    is out!

    Note: I'll kindly respond to your "other" issues separately.
    Aluxe, Oct 22, 2006
    #6
  7. Aluxe

    Aluxe Guest

    On Sat, 21 Oct 2006 20:56:37 -0700, Bob Headrick wrote:
    > I suspect you do not have a clue about how these things work,
    > or why the printer should/would care about remaining ink.


    Hi Bob Headrick,

    I can see from the google record you are very experienced, albeit not in
    this class of printers, so I take any response from you with much gravity.

    However, even though you DO know what you are doing (and you know it well),
    I still didn't see an answer to the original OP's question other than mine.

    Seems to me, even though my knowledge obviously pales in comparison to that
    of those others who posted replies, I seem to be the only one who came up
    with an hypothesis as to why a "Color Ink Out" or "Black Ink Out" message
    would be trying to tell us (bearing in mind there is no way it's actually
    indicating how much ink is in the ink containers!).

    If you, or anyone else, has a better hypothesis as to what this "Color Ink
    Out" or "Black Ink Out" error is indicating, that would be useful.
    Aluxe, Oct 22, 2006
    #7
  8. Aluxe

    Aluxe Guest

    On Sat, 21 Oct 2006 20:56:37 -0700, Bob Headrick wrote:
    >> What seems to happen is:
    >> - You turn off color and black ink checking
    >> - You print a few pages and then at some point, power down the printer
    >> - When you power the printer back up, the ink checking is back on


    Hi Bob Headrick,

    I'm sorry for interjecting emotion into my previous helpful reply to the
    poster and to you. Keeping back on technical topic, is there any way for
    you to find out if my hypothesis is true?

    1. Does the (<>456, or <>789) turning off the ink drop counting on the
    hpojd145 only work until the next power-on cycle?

    2. How can a user tell for sure when the hpojd145 ink-drop counting is on
    or off?
    Aluxe, Oct 22, 2006
    #8
  9. Aluxe

    Tony Guest

    Aluxe <> wrote:
    >On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 02:13:28 -0500, Tony wrote:
    >> The printer is simply protecting the printhead (your printhead).
    >> This printer uses separate printheads and ink containers
    >> If ink is not supplied to the printhead then it will fai
    >> HP does not ... build trickery into their printers.

    >
    >Hi Tony,
    >But, do you have an answer to the OP's question?
    >Seems to me I'm the only one who answered the original question.
    >If you have a better answer ... you should tell us what the message "Color
    >Ink Out" or "Black Ink Out" means because it certainly doesn't mean the ink
    >is out!
    >
    >Note: I'll kindly respond to your "other" issues separately.


    I think your hypothesis is not founded in fact. If the printer reports ink out
    or ink low it is quite simply because it believes that to be the case. If
    cartridges have been refilled then there may well be a disconnect between the
    actual levels of ink remaining and the printers ink usage tally. I am not
    opposed to refilling but it is clear that the mechanisms that are used by some
    printers to determine remaining ink is not compatible with refilling, this may
    or may not be by design but I do not see why any manufacturer should change
    their designs simply to assist people who want to refill. Having said that I do
    not believe they should make it too difficult either, as in all things there is
    a balance to be had.
    This printer uses separate printheads and ink containers, it is of paramount
    importance that the printer ensures that ink is available to the head in order
    to avoid head damage. If the printer believes that ink is not available it will
    attempt to protect the head, as indeed it should. I see no more complexity than
    this in this issue.
    Tony
    Tony, Oct 23, 2006
    #9
  10. Aluxe

    Tony Guest

    I agree, it does depend on what is meant by trickery.
    Providing small cartridges is something that I find annoying but I wouldn't
    call it trickery since the detail is readily available from a variety of
    sources.
    Deliberately designing a printer and/or cartridges to thwart fair competition
    gets close to my definition of trickery.
    Trickery, in my opinion, is designing a printer that will not perform as
    promised and a refusal to put it right. I have rarely heard of a case where HP
    are guilty of this but I can provide a few examples where I think other
    manufacturers are indeed guilty of this.
    Tony

    Ben Myers <> wrote:
    >It all depends on what one means by the word "trickery." Just like the
    >meaning of the words "is" and "sex". Is it trickery to design inkjet printers
    >with small cartridges that need regular and expensive replacement? Is it
    >trickery to embed circuits in the cartridges to prevent refilling?
    >
    >... Ben Myers
    >
    >On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 02:13:28 -0500, Tony <> wrote:
    >
    >>Aluxe <> wrote:
    >>>What I think happens, at least with my HP printer, is that you can only
    >>>TEMPORARILY turn off the color ink drop counting!
    >>>
    >>>Someone at HP can tell us if this is true ... but what I think happens is
    >>>you turn off the color and black ink checking with the double-arrow 456 and
    >>>double-arrow 389 sequence ... BUT ... (and this is a big but) ...
    >>>
    >>>What you think you turned off, secretly turns itself back on the very next
    >>>time you reboot your HP printer! Yup.
    >>>
    >>>What seems to happen is:
    >>>- You turn off color and black ink checking
    >>>- You print a few pages and then at some point, power down the printer
    >>>- When you power the printer back up, the ink checking is back on
    >>>- But you don't know that (how can you tell)
    >>>- So, even though you fill the cartridges to the brim
    >>>- The printer is counting drops and saying it's empty at some point
    >>>- Notice that if HP REALLY wanted to tell how much ink was there
    >>>- They'd use a more reliable and cheaper method (of which there are many)
    >>>
    >>>Point is, the system is rigged so that you have to turn off the ink drop
    >>>checking EVERY SINGLE TIME you turn the HP printer on.
    >>>
    >>>If you ask me, HP printers aren't worth the hassle!

    >>
    >>The printer is simply protecting the printhead (your printhead). If ink is
    >>not
    >>supplied to the printhead then it will fail, this is true of all inkjet
    >>printheads regardless of who the manufacturer is. This printer uses separate
    >>printheads and ink containers, if it used combined heads and ink containers
    >>then this would not be an issue.
    >>It seems to me that you are making a slightly paranoid assumption. HP does
    >>not,
    >>to my knowledge, build trickery into their printers.
    >>Tony
    Tony, Oct 23, 2006
    #10
  11. Aluxe

    Ben Myers Guest

    Though probably not trickery, it is clear that neither HP nor any of the other
    inkjet printers exactly want to publicize the fact that ink cartridges are teeny
    tiny in capacity. None of these companies would ever buy in to a
    consumer-oriented standard that states right there on the box and in the spec
    sheet how many pages one can print from the often even teenier and tinier
    "starter" cartridges that come with a printer AND how many pages can be printed
    with replacement cartridges sold afterward. Then people could actually compute
    cost per printed page and realize how expensive the el cheapo inkjet printers
    really are. Not to mention the pain in the ass inconvenience of having to run
    the the nearest Staples every other week to buy still more expensive cartridges.

    HP was on the losing end of a class action lawsuit a number of years ago for the
    design of its lamentable 1100 and similar laser printers, the ones with the
    small footprint and vertical sheet feed. Only the lawsuit forced Hp to offer a
    free kit to ameliorate a clear defect in the design, causing lots of paper jams.
    This was probably not trickery, but just plain inept engineering design and
    product testing before making the product available for sale. But when a
    company is forced by lawsuit to do something, one has to wonder about trickery.

    .... Ben Myers

    On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 23:59:02 -0500, Tony <> wrote:

    >I agree, it does depend on what is meant by trickery.
    >Providing small cartridges is something that I find annoying but I wouldn't
    >call it trickery since the detail is readily available from a variety of
    >sources.
    >Deliberately designing a printer and/or cartridges to thwart fair competition
    >gets close to my definition of trickery.
    >Trickery, in my opinion, is designing a printer that will not perform as
    >promised and a refusal to put it right. I have rarely heard of a case where HP
    >are guilty of this but I can provide a few examples where I think other
    >manufacturers are indeed guilty of this.
    >Tony
    >
    >Ben Myers <> wrote:
    >>It all depends on what one means by the word "trickery." Just like the
    >>meaning of the words "is" and "sex". Is it trickery to design inkjet printers
    >>with small cartridges that need regular and expensive replacement? Is it
    >>trickery to embed circuits in the cartridges to prevent refilling?
    >>
    >>... Ben Myers
    >>
    >>On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 02:13:28 -0500, Tony <> wrote:
    >>
    >>>Aluxe <> wrote:
    >>>>What I think happens, at least with my HP printer, is that you can only
    >>>>TEMPORARILY turn off the color ink drop counting!
    >>>>
    >>>>Someone at HP can tell us if this is true ... but what I think happens is
    >>>>you turn off the color and black ink checking with the double-arrow 456 and
    >>>>double-arrow 389 sequence ... BUT ... (and this is a big but) ...
    >>>>
    >>>>What you think you turned off, secretly turns itself back on the very next
    >>>>time you reboot your HP printer! Yup.
    >>>>
    >>>>What seems to happen is:
    >>>>- You turn off color and black ink checking
    >>>>- You print a few pages and then at some point, power down the printer
    >>>>- When you power the printer back up, the ink checking is back on
    >>>>- But you don't know that (how can you tell)
    >>>>- So, even though you fill the cartridges to the brim
    >>>>- The printer is counting drops and saying it's empty at some point
    >>>>- Notice that if HP REALLY wanted to tell how much ink was there
    >>>>- They'd use a more reliable and cheaper method (of which there are many)
    >>>>
    >>>>Point is, the system is rigged so that you have to turn off the ink drop
    >>>>checking EVERY SINGLE TIME you turn the HP printer on.
    >>>>
    >>>>If you ask me, HP printers aren't worth the hassle!
    >>>
    >>>The printer is simply protecting the printhead (your printhead). If ink is
    >>>not
    >>>supplied to the printhead then it will fail, this is true of all inkjet
    >>>printheads regardless of who the manufacturer is. This printer uses separate
    >>>printheads and ink containers, if it used combined heads and ink containers
    >>>then this would not be an issue.
    >>>It seems to me that you are making a slightly paranoid assumption. HP does
    >>>not,
    >>>to my knowledge, build trickery into their printers.
    >>>Tony
    Ben Myers, Oct 23, 2006
    #11
  12. Aluxe

    Aluxe Guest

    On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 23:38:20 -0500, Tony wrote:
    > I think your hypothesis is not founded in fact. If the printer reports ink out
    > or ink low it is quite simply because it believes that to be the case.


    Hi Tony,

    I thank you for your expert help.

    The fundamental quesion is whether turning off the black and color ink drop
    checking on the HP ojd145 via the "double-arrow 4 5 6" and "double-arrow 7
    8 9" respectively - is temporary (i.e., until the next power on cycle).

    My hypothesis is that you must turn off the ink-drop counting each time to
    restart the hpojd145 printer. If you disagree with my hypothesis (which you
    are welcome to do, but please provide facts), can you tell me how one would
    be able to check whether ink drop counting is on or off. The answer to that
    question would prove or disprove the hypothesis.

    Does _anyone_ in this printer group know if turning off the ink drop
    checking is temporary or if it lasts for a specified period or event?
    Aluxe, Oct 23, 2006
    #12
  13. Aluxe

    Aluxe Guest

    On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 08:37:13 -0400, Ben Myers wrote:
    > None of these companies would ever buy in to a
    > consumer-oriented standard that states right there on the box and in the spec
    > sheet how many pages one can print from the often even teenier and tinier
    > "starter" cartridges that come with a printer AND how many pages can be printed
    > with replacement cartridges sold afterward. Then people could actually compute
    > cost per printed page and realize how expensive the el cheapo inkjet printers
    > really are. Not to mention the pain in the ass inconvenience of having to run
    > the the nearest Staples every other week to buy still more expensive cartridges.



    Hi Ben,

    Thanks for the welcome comments as I agree with your EPA figure of "cost
    per standard page" where the standard page is (perhaps not perfectly)
    defined (but it would work - just like it does in other products). It would
    be nice to see this as any engineer could look at an HP printer and say
    "Geez, that ink tank is too small for that printer".

    And, I understand the point about the printheads not drying out. But, of
    course, that is a specious argument because the ink tanks are full so
    there's no chance of the printheads drying out. Besides, I've boiled many a
    printhead as part of my regular maintenance procedure so I'm fully aware of
    the fact that not only should the sponges in the ink tanks never be allowed
    to dry, but, the printheads must be kept clean of clogs and particles as
    well as wet with good quality ink from a printer supply shop.

    And I agree that better ink from a printer-supply shop costs about 1/10 of
    what Staples charges for HP14 ink tanks where just one 20 ounce bottle of
    each color lasts the lifetime of the printer (in my case anyway) - and,
    it's both waterpresistant and uv-protected - two critical archival
    requirements the inferior quality HP OEM HP14 inks lack.

    However, the fundamental question is still whether the hypothesis is true
    that the ink-drop counting of the hewlett packard officejet d145 printer
    turns back on in all cases after the machine is powered up.

    A test of that hypothesis could easily be performed if we knew how to query
    the hpojd145 printer to ask if it is counting ink drops at any particular
    moment.

    Does anyone in expert printer land know the answer to these two fundamental
    HP questions?
    Aluxe, Oct 23, 2006
    #13
  14. Aluxe

    Bob Headrick Guest

    "Ben Myers" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Though probably not trickery, it is clear that neither HP nor any of
    > the
    > other inkjet printers exactly want to publicize the fact that ink
    > cartridges
    > are teeny tiny in capacity. None of these companies would ever
    > buy in to a consumer-oriented standard that states right there on the
    > box
    > and in the spec sheet how many pages one can print from the often even
    > teenier and tinier "starter" cartridges that come with a printer AND
    > how
    > many pages can be printed with replacement cartridges sold afterward.


    This is not true - the industry has been working for a few years to get
    an ISO standard test method to have an "apples to apples" comparison of
    print yields. See
    http://h10060.www1.hp.com/pageyield/articles/us/en/IsoInkjetYield.html
    for the general methodology and
    http://h10060.www1.hp.com/pageyield/articles/us/en/IsoInkjetYield.html
    for specific printer yields.

    - Bob Headrick, MS MVP Printing/Imaging
    Bob Headrick, Oct 23, 2006
    #14
  15. Aluxe

    Gary Tait Guest

    Aluxe <> wrote in
    news::


    > If you, or anyone else, has a better hypothesis as to what this "Color
    > Ink Out" or "Black Ink Out" error is indicating, that would be useful.


    It is indicating that the ink droplet counter is at zero. When you put a
    genuine new cart in, the count gets set to an estimated value
    (or set to zero where printing increments the dropcounter), with allowances
    for cleaning and such.

    Under ideal conditions, the counter will show empty when the ink has nearly
    been expelled. The estimation is conservative, so the user doesn't actually
    run out of ink.
    Gary Tait, Oct 24, 2006
    #15
  16. Aluxe

    Gary Tait Guest

    "Bob Headrick" <> wrote in news:12jlqvqs5d1c0c3
    @corp.supernews.com:

    > I would love to hear about a "more reliable and cheaper method" of
    > detecting the amount of ink remaining.... I suspect you do not have a
    > clue about how these things work, or why the printer should/would care
    > about remaining ink.
    >
    > - Bob Headrick, MS MVP Printing/Imaging


    Cheaper, no, but a heck of a lot more reliable would be an actual low-ink
    sensor, similar in function to Canon's optical prism. It could be a PTC
    thermistor in the ink (pass a current through, if it is in ink the ink woul
    cool it, keeping the resistance low, and dry it would heat up to a high
    resistance), or actually optical (if Canon doesn't have a patent on that),
    or maybe directly sense current passing through the ink, if present.
    Gary Tait, Oct 24, 2006
    #16
  17. Aluxe

    Ben Myers Guest

    Would it be unkind to say that an ISO standard for measuring print yields is a
    well-kept secret? Is there a clearly defined methodology for the consumer to
    determine cost per page, based on the ISO standard-under-development? Would HP
    or Epson or Canon or Lexmark provide cost per page (consumables only)
    information in store displays, on printer cartons, or on their various web
    sites? Would any or all of these manufacturers consent to having an
    independent test lab produce and distribute the results?

    The inkjet printer industry at large, not just HP, continues to take a lot of
    well-justified flak for weak (I'm being kind again) disclosure of cost per page
    information, extremely expensive cartridge costs, shipping tiny "starter"
    cartridges with many models of printers, and (some manufacturers only) creating
    barriers to competitive 3rd party cartridge companies. In short, you never
    know what you are getting when you buy an inkjet printer, until it has sucked
    your billfold dry buying cartridges.

    Positive answers to most of the questions asked above would rebuild the
    credibility of inkjet printer (and INK!) manufacturers and introduce at least
    some transparency into the whole business of figuring out which printer to buy.
    Oops! I forgot. I'm trying to be rational again, like Mr. Spock and Mr.
    Data.

    Tell Mr. Hurd I said so. At least he is more likely to listen than Carly.

    .... Ben Myers

    On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 12:23:45 -0700, "Bob Headrick" <> wrote:

    >
    >"Ben Myers" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> Though probably not trickery, it is clear that neither HP nor any of
    >> the
    >> other inkjet printers exactly want to publicize the fact that ink
    >> cartridges
    >> are teeny tiny in capacity. None of these companies would ever
    >> buy in to a consumer-oriented standard that states right there on the
    >> box
    >> and in the spec sheet how many pages one can print from the often even
    >> teenier and tinier "starter" cartridges that come with a printer AND
    >> how
    >> many pages can be printed with replacement cartridges sold afterward.

    >
    >This is not true - the industry has been working for a few years to get
    >an ISO standard test method to have an "apples to apples" comparison of
    >print yields. See
    >http://h10060.www1.hp.com/pageyield/articles/us/en/IsoInkjetYield.html
    >for the general methodology and
    >http://h10060.www1.hp.com/pageyield/articles/us/en/IsoInkjetYield.html
    >for specific printer yields.
    >
    >- Bob Headrick, MS MVP Printing/Imaging
    Ben Myers, Oct 24, 2006
    #17
  18. Aluxe

    Bob Headrick Guest

    "Ben Myers" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Positive answers to most of the questions asked above would rebuild
    > the
    > credibility of inkjet printer (and INK!) manufacturers and introduce
    > at least
    > some transparency into the whole business of figuring out which
    > printer to buy.
    > Oops! I forgot. I'm trying to be rational again, like Mr. Spock
    > and Mr.
    > Data.


    If you were actually trying to be rational you would have actually read
    the web sites I provided, which answer many of your questions:
    http://h10060.www1.hp.com/pageyield/articles/us/en/IsoInkjetYield.html
    for the general methodology and
    http://h10060.www1.hp.com/pageyield/articles/us/en/IsoInkjetYield.html
    for specific printer yields.

    It appears you have an axe to grind with HP, perhaps related to your
    termination of employment with them a few years ago. I have a
    suggestion - move on.

    - Bob Headrick
    Bob Headrick, Oct 24, 2006
    #18
  19. Aluxe

    Ben Myers Guest

    I read both pages referred to by the cited URLs. Oops! They point to the same
    page. One web page does not exactly bring out of obscurity HP's (and others,
    of course) efforts to set a standard, although the web page provides a decent
    explanation. All I can say is that it's about time for a standards effort. How
    long have color inkjet printers been in use?

    Still, I'll persist. Does HP or ANY other printer company make it easy for
    people to make cost per page comparisons for inkjet printers? Heck no. Not
    even close. It's not very public. Again, where is this information
    "published"? If it's off on some hard-to-find web pages, it's not very public.
    I'm not beating up on only HP here. I'm beating up ALL the printer companies
    for inkjet printers with very high operating costs. It's simply that HP is the
    only one with a usenet newsgroup. Canon, Lexmark, Epson do not have usenet
    newsgroups.

    I do computer and network sales and service work, and all my clients bitch about
    having to go to Staples or whereever all too often to buy expensive replacement
    inkjet cartridges. I don't know what to tell them, because no brand stands out
    over any other. This is the computer industry complaint I hear most
    frequently. The inkjet printer industry is a collective embarrassment shared
    by all the printer manufacturers, not just HP. I use an HP LaserJet myself,
    eschewing expensive color.

    As for other HP products, notably computers, I have found HP computers difficult
    to repair compared to some other brands. (As an example, recently I had to
    replace a failed power supply on an HP Pavilion, so I needed to do almost a
    complete disassembly to remove the power supply from a cramped mATX chassis not
    designed for easy accessibility. Took darn near an hour, and not because I am
    inept. By comparsion, with most other brands, changing out a power supply is a
    matter of removing 4 screws and disconnecting all the connectors, slapping in a
    replacement and hooking it up. 10 minutes max.) I have found the HP web site
    to be wanting for useful technical information compared to some other brands. I
    find Dell and Lenovo/IBM to be easy to deal with re. spare parts, technical
    specs, maintenance manuals, etc. Far easier than HP. Gateway/eMachines is a
    real mixed bag, overall not quite as good as HP. Sony and Toshiba are next to
    impossible to deal with. So from my persepective, I have to place HP somewhere
    in the middle of all the computer equipment I have to work on.

    I never worked for HP, Compaq, or DEC in my entire life. Never tried to. Never
    saw or had an opportunity to. Interviewed with DEC once way back when. Went
    elsewhere, to another company with a similar failed line of proprietary
    computers. Sorry, no sour grapes here, just an axe to grind whenever I peceive
    that a large company (or large companies) are taking advantage of individual
    buyers, a phenomenon not unique to the computer industry in a country that has
    evolved with a distinct anti-consumer, pro-big business climate... Ben Myers

    On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 21:04:32 -0700, "Bob Headrick" <> wrote:

    >
    >"Ben Myers" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> Positive answers to most of the questions asked above would rebuild
    >> the
    >> credibility of inkjet printer (and INK!) manufacturers and introduce
    >> at least
    >> some transparency into the whole business of figuring out which
    >> printer to buy.
    >> Oops! I forgot. I'm trying to be rational again, like Mr. Spock
    >> and Mr.
    >> Data.

    >
    >If you were actually trying to be rational you would have actually read
    >the web sites I provided, which answer many of your questions:
    >http://h10060.www1.hp.com/pageyield/articles/us/en/IsoInkjetYield.html
    >for the general methodology and
    >http://h10060.www1.hp.com/pageyield/articles/us/en/IsoInkjetYield.html
    >for specific printer yields.
    >
    >It appears you have an axe to grind with HP, perhaps related to your
    >termination of employment with them a few years ago. I have a
    >suggestion - move on.
    >
    > - Bob Headrick
    >
    >
    >
    Ben Myers, Oct 24, 2006
    #19
  20. Aluxe

    Bob Headrick Guest

    "Ben Myers" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >I read both pages referred to by the cited URLs. Oops! They point to
    >the same
    > page. One web page does not exactly bring out of obscurity HP's (and
    > others,
    > of course) efforts to set a standard, although the web page provides a
    > decent
    > explanation. All I can say is that it's about time for a standards
    > effort. How
    > long have color inkjet printers been in use?
    >
    > Still, I'll persist. Does HP or ANY other printer company make it
    > easy for
    > people to make cost per page comparisons for inkjet printers? Heck
    > no. Not
    > even close. It's not very public. Again, where is this information
    > "published"? If it's off on some hard-to-find web pages, it's not
    > very public.


    Oops, I gave the wrong link. See
    http://h10060.www1.hp.com/pageyield/us/en/index.html and it can be found
    by a search for "page yield" at http://www.hp.com

    As for not being very public, that is changing. There is a rather large
    effort underway to provide yield information for all new HP printers as
    they are introduced. As the ISO standard is ratified I would expect the
    information will become more pervasive, both in reviews and marketing
    material. Prior to a standard different manufacturers could (and did)
    have widely different methods and definitions of page yield. For
    example, 5% coverage was pretty much "standard" for black text, but one
    manufacturer defined the 5% as based on an A size page with 1" margins
    all the way around - so the 5% area was really only for a 6.5"x9" page.
    With an agreed standard customers will really be able to make more
    informed comparison.

    As for taking a *long* time to get this in place, that is true. How
    many years were cars in existence before the EPA mileage estimates
    became widespread? Page yield is a very complex issue, depending on a
    large number of variables. The standard as it is being released will
    give "highway" mileage, the yield if the printer is pretty much run
    continuously emptying the cartridge in one sitting. "Real" customers
    have a much different usage model, with many printing only a few pages a
    day and taking months or a year to empty a cartridge. Manufacturers,
    especially the smaller ones, are not interested in a test that would
    take months to run as this would be prohibitively expensive. Similarly
    printers that use a large amount of ink for servicing could have high
    "continuous printing" yields but relatively poor real world yields.
    Manufacturers would not be interested in publishing the poorer real
    world results. See
    http://h10060.www1.hp.com/pageyield/articles/us/en/EfficiencyArticle.html,
    particularly the graph in the center of the article.

    Regards,
    Bob Headrick, MS MVP Printing/Imaging
    Bob Headrick, Oct 24, 2006
    #20
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