Re: Horrors spawned by P&S marketing

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by SMS, Dec 9, 2008.

  1. SMS

    SMS Guest

    RichA wrote:
    > Two of them. The worst. Digital zooming, a scam and a joke and
    > auto-jacking up of ISO as a kind of "image stabilization" method. Both
    > could only have come from the mind of a mad marketer and NOT a camera user.
    > Close second? Telephoto attachments with 1000 threads per inch for you to
    > screw on the end of your lens!!! Forget shutter lag, by the time you got
    > that thing on, the bird you were trying to shoot would have raised a brood
    > of young!


    There are more horrors as well.

    The mindless increase in resolution, resulting in smaller and smaller
    pixels, which in turn results in more noise, and poorer low light
    performance.

    The increase in LCD sizes to the point where they become an excuse to
    remove the costly optical viewfinder (a handful still have this).

    The loss of the 28mm wide angle on most zoom lenses (a handful still
    have this).

    The loss of the articulating LCD or articulating lens/body (a very very
    few models still have this).

    It reminds me of the quote that used to be on Rivendell Bicycle's Web Site:

    "If you find something you really, really like, buy a lifetime supply;
    because it'll either be changed for the worse or go out of production."
     
    SMS, Dec 9, 2008
    #1
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  2. SMS wrote:
    []
    > The loss of the 28mm wide angle on most zoom lenses (a handful still
    > have this).
    >
    > The loss of the articulating LCD or articulating lens/body (a very
    > very few models still have this).

    []

    I thought that there were more wide-angle models today than previously -
    that's my impression.

    Pity about the swivel LCD - starting to see it DSLRs now....

    David
     
    David J Taylor, Dec 9, 2008
    #2
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  3. SMS

    ASAAR Guest

    On Tue, 09 Dec 2008 06:55:28 -0800, the SMS troll wrote:

    > There are more horrors as well.
    >
    > The mindless increase in resolution, resulting in smaller and smaller
    > pixels, which in turn results in more noise, and poorer low light
    > performance.


    Despite increases in resolution most of today's P&S cameras do as
    well in low light as the older models. Many do better. As usual
    your hyperbolic statements aren't borne out in the real world. If
    the new cameras were as horrific as you suggest, most of the new
    cameras would either be swiftly returned, or never would have been
    purchased as word quickly got around about how much better the
    pictures were from the old Powershot S10's, Mavicas, etc. were.
     
    ASAAR, Dec 9, 2008
    #3
  4. SMS

    SMS Guest

    David J Taylor wrote:
    > SMS wrote:
    > []
    >> The loss of the 28mm wide angle on most zoom lenses (a handful still
    >> have this).
    >>
    >> The loss of the articulating LCD or articulating lens/body (a very
    >> very few models still have this).

    > []
    >
    > I thought that there were more wide-angle models today than previously -
    > that's my impression.


    I was referring to the smaller cameras, not the ZLRs. For ultra-compact
    cameras, if you look for ones with optical viewfinders and wide-angle
    lenses, you're down to one, the Sony DSC-W170. For compact cameras, you
    have the Canon G10 and the Nikon Coolpix P6000. For ZLRs there are a
    bunch. If you drop the optical viewfinder there are a few more.

    > Pity about the swivel LCD - starting to see it DSLRs now....


    It was an amazingly useful feature. The Canon SX10 IS still has it. It
    sucks that Canon removed it from the G series.
     
    SMS, Dec 9, 2008
    #4
  5. SMS

    Dave Cohen Guest

    SMS wrote:
    > RichA wrote:
    >> Two of them. The worst. Digital zooming, a scam and a joke and
    >> auto-jacking up of ISO as a kind of "image stabilization" method.
    >> Both could only have come from the mind of a mad marketer and NOT a
    >> camera user.
    >> Close second? Telephoto attachments with 1000 threads per inch for
    >> you to screw on the end of your lens!!! Forget shutter lag, by the
    >> time you got that thing on, the bird you were trying to shoot would
    >> have raised a brood of young!

    >
    > There are more horrors as well.
    >
    > The mindless increase in resolution, resulting in smaller and smaller
    > pixels, which in turn results in more noise, and poorer low light
    > performance.
    >
    > The increase in LCD sizes to the point where they become an excuse to
    > remove the costly optical viewfinder (a handful still have this).
    >
    > The loss of the 28mm wide angle on most zoom lenses (a handful still
    > have this).
    >
    > The loss of the articulating LCD or articulating lens/body (a very very
    > few models still have this).
    >
    > It reminds me of the quote that used to be on Rivendell Bicycle's Web Site:
    >
    > "If you find something you really, really like, buy a lifetime supply;
    > because it'll either be changed for the worse or go out of production."
    >
    >
    >

    Is that last paragraph above really true. If it is, please keep posting.
    We love you, can't get enough. Please don't change, just go away.
    Dave Cohen
     
    Dave Cohen, Dec 9, 2008
    #5
  6. SMS wrote:
    []
    > I was referring to the smaller cameras, not the ZLRs.


    So was I.

    > For
    > ultra-compact cameras, if you look for ones with optical viewfinders
    > and wide-angle lenses, you're down to one, the Sony DSC-W170. For
    > compact cameras, you have the Canon G10 and the Nikon Coolpix P6000.
    > For ZLRs there are a bunch. If you drop the optical viewfinder there
    > are a few more.


    Plenty of cameras with 28mm wide end - here's a 28 - 280mm
    image-stabilised zoom in a compact:

    http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonictz3/

    Other examples:

    Canon 28-112mm:
    http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/specs/Canon/canon_sd880is.asp

    Nikon 28-11mm:
    http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/specs/Nikon/nikon_cps610.asp

    Cheers,
    David
     
    David J Taylor, Dec 9, 2008
    #6
  7. SMS

    SMS Guest

    David J Taylor wrote:
    > SMS wrote:
    > []
    >> I was referring to the smaller cameras, not the ZLRs.

    >
    > So was I.
    >
    >> For
    >> ultra-compact cameras, if you look for ones with optical viewfinders
    >> and wide-angle lenses, you're down to one, the Sony DSC-W170. For
    >> compact cameras, you have the Canon G10 and the Nikon Coolpix P6000.
    >> For ZLRs there are a bunch. If you drop the optical viewfinder there
    >> are a few more.

    >
    > Plenty of cameras with 28mm wide end - here's a 28 - 280mm
    > image-stabilised zoom in a compact:
    >
    > http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonictz3/
    >
    > Other examples:
    >
    > Canon 28-112mm:
    > http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/specs/Canon/canon_sd880is.asp
    >
    > Nikon 28-11mm:
    > http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/specs/Nikon/nikon_cps610.asp


    None of those have viewfinders. They are all unacceptable, and should be
    avoided at all costs.
     
    SMS, Dec 9, 2008
    #7
  8. SMS wrote:
    > David J Taylor wrote:

    []
    >> Plenty of cameras with 28mm wide end - here's a 28 - 280mm
    >> image-stabilised zoom in a compact:
    >>
    >> http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonictz3/
    >>
    >> Other examples:
    >>
    >> Canon 28-112mm:
    >> http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/specs/Canon/canon_sd880is.asp
    >>
    >> Nikon 28-112mm:
    >> http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/specs/Nikon/nikon_cps610.asp

    >
    > None of those have viewfinders. They are all unacceptable, and should
    > be avoided at all costs.


    Nonsense. I have the Panasonic TZ3 and don't miss the optical viewfinder
    one jot! The cameras may be unacceptable to you, but please don't think
    that you speak for 100% of the user population!

    David
     
    David J Taylor, Dec 9, 2008
    #8
  9. SMS

    SMS Guest

    David J Taylor wrote:

    > Nonsense. I have the Panasonic TZ3 and don't miss the optical
    > viewfinder one jot! The cameras may be unacceptable to you, but please
    > don't think that you speak for 100% of the user population!


    Okay, only 99.999%
     
    SMS, Dec 9, 2008
    #9
  10. SMS wrote:
    > David J Taylor wrote:
    >
    >> Nonsense. I have the Panasonic TZ3 and don't miss the optical
    >> viewfinder one jot! The cameras may be unacceptable to you, but
    >> please don't think that you speak for 100% of the user population!

    >
    > Okay, only 99.999%


    <G>

    David
     
    David J Taylor, Dec 9, 2008
    #10
  11. SMS

    -hh Guest

    SMS <> wrote:
    > David J Taylor wrote:
    > >
    > > Pity about the swivel LCD - starting to see it DSLRs now....

    >
    > It was an amazingly useful feature. The Canon SX10 IS still has it. It
    > sucks that Canon removed it from the G series.


    And removed from the A series as well.


    Whoever said the following is right:
    "If you find something you really, really like, buy a lifetime
    supply;
    because it'll either be changed for the worse or go out of
    production."

    Anyone have a Canon A80 in mint condition? :)


    -hh
     
    -hh, Dec 9, 2008
    #11
  12. SMS

    ASAAR Guest

    On 09 Dec 2008 19:30:35 GMT, Ray Fischer wrote:

    >>The mindless increase in resolution, resulting in smaller and smaller
    >>pixels, which in turn results in more noise, and poorer low light
    >>performance.

    >
    > In five years some marketing weenie will come up with the idead of
    > advertising a special "high quality" mode that simply does binning
    > on the 24MP P&S sensor to reduce noise and impsove quality, and we'll
    > be back at 6MP cameras.


    The same marketing weenie that imposed the "mindless increase in
    resolution" or another marketing weenie that loves photography? I
    like the idea of cameras that let you select the image mode at will,
    high resolution for low ISO landscapes and a lower res. mode for
    clean high ISO shots, speed and image files of reasonable size. I
    don't know that I'd want a 24mp sensor, but a couple of years ago
    P&S cameras with 10mp sensors seemed excessive but today's G10 does
    a pretty good job with its 15mp sensor. Don't be surprised if a G11
    ups it to 18 or 20mp and maybe even a G12 with 20mp or more. One of
    these wouldn't replace, but would be used along with my D500 DSLR
    that also has a higher usable ISO binned D50 mode. :)
     
    ASAAR, Dec 10, 2008
    #12
  13. RichA wrote:
    []
    > Meanwhile, my 2001 C-3040 had a f1.8 lens. Seen any of them on a P&S
    > recently?


    Who needs f/1.8 any more when compact cameas offer ISO 1600 and 3200?

    <G>

    David
     
    David J Taylor, Dec 10, 2008
    #13
  14. RichA wrote:
    []
    > Yes, people really did need 3.5" LCDs on the back of P&Ss, so they'd
    > have more room for ugly fingerprints.


    Had you actually used a camera with a larger, higher resolution LCD
    perhaps you would have appreciated why it's a benefit. Perhaps you now
    need reading glasses, or bifocals?

    David
     
    David J Taylor, Dec 10, 2008
    #14
  15. SMS

    PDM Guest

    "Ron Hunter" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > David J Taylor wrote:
    >> SMS wrote:
    >> []
    >>> The loss of the 28mm wide angle on most zoom lenses (a handful still
    >>> have this).
    >>>
    >>> The loss of the articulating LCD or articulating lens/body (a very
    >>> very few models still have this).

    >> []
    >>
    >> I thought that there were more wide-angle models today than previously -
    >> that's my impression.
    >>
    >> Pity about the swivel LCD - starting to see it DSLRs now....
    >>
    >> David

    > The swivel LCD is a great feature for those who do close-up (macro) work.
    > Not so useful for general photos. <snip>


    Don't agree with this statement. Found the swivel on my G3 very useful for
    candid street photography. People assume you are either messing about or
    shooting in the direction you are standing. Also can see screen if I hold
    the camera over my head to shoot over crowds; or if I want to take a low
    level picture so it turns out different to all the eye level shots one sees.
    PDM
     
    PDM, Dec 10, 2008
    #15
  16. SMS

    Don Stauffer Guest

    David J Taylor wrote:
    > SMS wrote:
    > []
    >> The loss of the 28mm wide angle on most zoom lenses (a handful still
    >> have this).
    >>
    >> The loss of the articulating LCD or articulating lens/body (a very
    >> very few models still have this).

    > []
    >
    > I thought that there were more wide-angle models today than previously -
    > that's my impression.
    >
    > Pity about the swivel LCD - starting to see it DSLRs now....
    >
    > David


    Mine too. When I first got into photography few used such extreme wide
    angles. At least, they were considered extreme at the time. Since the
    perspective creates a sort of "barrel distortion" illusion (yes, I know
    it is not truly distortion- it just looks like it), people stayed away
    from it. Also the big noses if you had people in the shots turned off
    some. I see the popularity of 28 mm growing in the eighties and
    nineties, with even shorter F in the late nineties. I am talking about
    35mm equivalent, not actual focal length. Anyway, being old school, I
    don't worry about those kind of field angles.
     
    Don Stauffer, Dec 10, 2008
    #16
  17. "David J Taylor"
    <-this-part.nor-this-bit.co.uk> wrote in
    message news:m7L%k.4214$...

    > Who needs f/1.8 any more when compact cameas offer ISO 1600 and 3200?


    > <G>


    I assume that the <G> means that you realize that the question is
    sarcastic -- but perhaps other readers won't, so I'll chime in here.

    ISO 1600 on the compact cameras I've seen is pretty bad. If the lens were
    two stops faster, it would be possible to use ISO 400, which is typically
    only mediocre, but still a big improvement. So an f/1.8 lens would be a big
    improvement over an f/3.5 lens.
     
    Andrew Koenig, Dec 10, 2008
    #17
  18. "Ron Hunter" <> wrote in message
    news:...

    > The swivel LCD is a great feature for those who do close-up (macro) work.
    > Not so useful for general photos.


    Don't forget self-portraits.
     
    Andrew Koenig, Dec 10, 2008
    #18
  19. SMS

    SMS Guest

    Andrew Koenig wrote:
    > "Ron Hunter" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >
    >> The swivel LCD is a great feature for those who do close-up (macro) work.
    >> Not so useful for general photos.

    >
    > Don't forget self-portraits.


    It's also useful when you have to hold the camera above a crowd.
     
    SMS, Dec 10, 2008
    #19
  20. SMS

    J. Clarke Guest

    SMS wrote:
    > Andrew Koenig wrote:
    >> "Ron Hunter" <> wrote in message
    >> news:...
    >>
    >>> The swivel LCD is a great feature for those who do close-up
    >>> (macro)
    >>> work. Not so useful for general photos.

    >>
    >> Don't forget self-portraits.

    >
    > It's also useful when you have to hold the camera above a crowd.


    Don't know whether you've noticed or not but the Sony A350 DSLR has a
    live-view LCD that swings out both up and down.

    It's also useful for low angle shots by the way.

    --
    --
    --John
    to email, dial "usenet" and validate
    (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
     
    J. Clarke, Dec 10, 2008
    #20
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