Re: High-capacity NiMH cells -- very rapid self-discharge common?

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by ransley, Jun 24, 2008.

  1. ransley

    ransley Guest

    On Jun 24, 4:36 pm, "Neil Harrington" <> wrote:
    > I recently bought some cheap no-name (actually "Tenergy," whatever that is)
    > 2600mAh AA cells on eBay. I haven't tried to assess the accuracy of their
    > rating, don't know how I'd do that anyway, but I'm flabbergasted by how fast
    > they self-discharge -- a couple days or so, sometimes almost overnight, it
    > seems. Tried leaving them on charge overnight, no difference. Tried
    > "conditioning" them in a Maha C204W, still no difference. Charged with a
    > Maha C401FS, individual charging circuits for each cell, still no
    > difference. So far they do not seem to improve with use either.
    >
    > So I tried some more cheap no-name (really no-name this time, just cell info
    > on a pale green case) 2600mAh cells from a different eBay source. Pretty
    > much the same thing. From fully charged they go flat amazingly fast with no
    > use at all. Not actually zero-voltage flat, they'll still light a two-cell
    > flashlight, but flat enough that a couple of days after charging they won't
    > operate an old four-cell Minolta S404 for more than a few shots.
    >
    > I've used no-name (or unheard-of name) NiMH cells from eBay sellers before,
    > with excellent and reliable results, and most of those cells are still
    > giving me good results after several years. But they were of lower capacity,
    > 2000 mAh or less. So I'm wondering if fast self-discharge is a
    > characteristic of these newer 2600mAh NiMH cells in general, or if it's just
    > that cheap cells ain't what they used to be.
    >
    > Neil


    Have you put a V meter on them to see if they even charge and what the
    discharge is. I can let them sit a month and still have use, but not
    cheap no names. Try Eneloop are a different design, but measure what
    voltage your chargers give, mine charge to 1.5v or so
     
    ransley, Jun 24, 2008
    #1
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  2. Neil Harrington wrote:
    > "ransley" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >
    >
    > Have you put a V meter on them to see if they even charge and what the
    > discharge is. I can let them sit a month and still have use, but not
    > cheap no names. Try Eneloop are a different design, but measure what
    > voltage your chargers give, mine charge to 1.5v or so
    >
    > ________________
    >
    > Good idea, I will check the charging voltages. But my Maha chargers are the
    > same ones I've been using with other NiMH cells for a long time, with no
    > problems.
    >
    > As for discharge, I suppose I could get a suitable resistor from Radio
    > Shack, rig up a multitester somehow and plot the discharge curve -- but
    > that's really more tedious than I care to get into, unless there's a simpler
    > method that hasn't occurred to me. I used to do that 30+ years ago with NiCd
    > battery packs when I was flying R/C models.
    >
    > Neil
    >
    >

    The good folks over at CandlePowerForums
    http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=149804 have studied
    this subject extensively. Might save yourself some time and energy in
    reviewing what they did before doing any analysis yourself.

    Clair
     
    Clair Johnston, Jun 25, 2008
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. ransley

    ransley Guest

    On Jun 24, 5:43 pm, "Neil Harrington" <> wrote:
    > "ransley" <> wrote in message
    >
    > news:...
    >
    > Have you put a V meter on them to see if they even charge and what the
    > discharge is. I can let them sit a month and still have use, but not
    > cheap no names. Try Eneloop are a different design, but measure what
    > voltage your chargers give, mine charge to 1.5v or so
    >
    > ________________
    >
    > Good idea, I will check the charging voltages. But my Maha chargers are the
    > same ones I've been using with other NiMH cells for a long time, with no
    > problems.
    >
    > As for discharge, I suppose I could get a suitable resistor from Radio
    > Shack, rig up a multitester somehow and plot the discharge curve -- but
    > that's really more tedious than I care to get into, unless there's a simpler
    > method that hasn't occurred to me. I used to do that 30+ years ago with NiCd
    > battery packs when I was flying R/C models.
    >
    > Neil


    I just meant check the voltage when they dont work, my old old cells
    still charge to 1.35-4, it could be the camera, but Sanyo, Panasonic,
    Duracell, Energiser are good. Running RC stuff im suprised you dont
    stick with Sanyo as they are the standard of quality. Eneloops I think
    are the way to go, slightly less amps but a little self discharge.
     
    ransley, Jun 25, 2008
    #3
  4. ransley

    tomcas Guest

    Clair Johnston wrote:
    > Neil Harrington wrote:
    >
    >> "ransley" <> wrote in message
    >> news:...
    >>
    >>
    >> Have you put a V meter on them to see if they even charge and what the
    >> discharge is. I can let them sit a month and still have use, but not
    >> cheap no names. Try Eneloop are a different design, but measure what
    >> voltage your chargers give, mine charge to 1.5v or so
    >>
    >> ________________
    >>
    >> Good idea, I will check the charging voltages. But my Maha chargers
    >> are the same ones I've been using with other NiMH cells for a long
    >> time, with no problems.
    >>
    >> As for discharge, I suppose I could get a suitable resistor from Radio
    >> Shack, rig up a multitester somehow and plot the discharge curve --
    >> but that's really more tedious than I care to get into, unless there's
    >> a simpler method that hasn't occurred to me. I used to do that 30+
    >> years ago with NiCd battery packs when I was flying R/C models.
    >>
    >> Neil
    >>

    > The good folks over at CandlePowerForums
    > http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=149804 have studied
    > this subject extensively. Might save yourself some time and energy in
    > reviewing what they did before doing any analysis yourself.
    >
    > Clair

    Excellent forum on NiMh and self discharge rates. Thanks for the link.
     
    tomcas, Jun 25, 2008
    #4
  5. ransley

    ransley Guest

    On Jun 25, 1:23 am, "Neil Harrington" <> wrote:
    > "ransley" <> wrote in message
    >
    > news:...
    > On Jun 24, 5:43 pm, "Neil Harrington" <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > "ransley" <> wrote in message

    >
    > >news:...

    >
    > > Have you put a V meter on them to see if they even charge and what the
    > > discharge is. I can let them sit a month and still have use, but not
    > > cheap no names. Try Eneloop are a different design, but measure what
    > > voltage your chargers give, mine charge to 1.5v or so

    >
    > > ________________

    >
    > > Good idea, I will check the charging voltages. But my Maha chargers are
    > > the
    > > same ones I've been using with other NiMH cells for a long time, with no
    > > problems.

    >
    > > As for discharge, I suppose I could get a suitable resistor from Radio
    > > Shack, rig up a multitester somehow and plot the discharge curve -- but
    > > that's really more tedious than I care to get into, unless there's a
    > > simpler
    > > method that hasn't occurred to me. I used to do that 30+ years ago with
    > > NiCd
    > > battery packs when I was flying R/C models.

    >
    > > Neil

    >
    > I just meant check the voltage when  they dont work, my old old cells
    > still charge to 1.35-4, it could be the camera, but Sanyo, Panasonic,
    > Duracell, Energiser are good. Running RC stuff im suprised you dont
    > stick with Sanyo as they are the standard of quality. Eneloops I think
    > are the way to go, slightly less amps but a little self discharge.
    >
    > ______________________
    >
    > OK, I see what you mean. But I'd still have to check the voltage under load
    > for it to have any meaning, wouldn't I? Or isn't that so?
    >
    > As for the R/C stuff, that was over 30 years ago; we only had NiCd then and
    > the battery packs came already made up, no individual cells. (Maybe
    > individual cells for electric power, dunno about that -- it was rare
    > anyway.) The flight packs for conventional planes were usually 500mAh though
    > there were also small 225mAh packs for the little 1/2A models. I have no
    > idea what the R/C guys are using now.
    >
    > Neil- Hide quoted text -
    >
    > - Show quoted text -


    Sanyo is still #1 and always has been in all rechargables my RC days
    were Sanyos, I dont use a load I just want to know their state, but
    load would reveal old cells, some chargers do that, test cells. If I
    shot alot I would be thoroughly testing but for now im going Sanyo
    Eneloop since my cameras sit for months. If I went out on vacation to
    shoot thousands then a higher output Sanyo, Energiser might be a
    choise.
     
    ransley, Jun 25, 2008
    #5
  6. Ï "Neil Harrington" <> Ýãñáøå óôï ìÞíõìá
    news:...
    >
    > "ransley" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > On Jun 24, 5:43 pm, "Neil Harrington" <> wrote:
    >> "ransley" <> wrote in message
    >>
    >> news:...
    >>
    >> Have you put a V meter on them to see if they even charge and what the
    >> discharge is. I can let them sit a month and still have use, but not
    >> cheap no names. Try Eneloop are a different design, but measure what
    >> voltage your chargers give, mine charge to 1.5v or so
    >>
    >> ________________
    >>
    >> Good idea, I will check the charging voltages. But my Maha chargers are
    >> the
    >> same ones I've been using with other NiMH cells for a long time, with no
    >> problems.
    >>
    >> As for discharge, I suppose I could get a suitable resistor from Radio
    >> Shack, rig up a multitester somehow and plot the discharge curve -- but
    >> that's really more tedious than I care to get into, unless there's a
    >> simpler
    >> method that hasn't occurred to me. I used to do that 30+ years ago with
    >> NiCd
    >> battery packs when I was flying R/C models.
    >>
    >> Neil

    >
    > I just meant check the voltage when they dont work, my old old cells
    > still charge to 1.35-4, it could be the camera, but Sanyo, Panasonic,
    > Duracell, Energiser are good. Running RC stuff im suprised you dont
    > stick with Sanyo as they are the standard of quality. Eneloops I think
    > are the way to go, slightly less amps but a little self discharge.
    >
    > ______________________
    >
    > OK, I see what you mean. But I'd still have to check the voltage under
    > load for it to have any meaning, wouldn't I? Or isn't that so?
    >
    > As for the R/C stuff, that was over 30 years ago; we only had NiCd then
    > and the battery packs came already made up, no individual cells. (Maybe
    > individual cells for electric power, dunno about that -- it was rare
    > anyway.) The flight packs for conventional planes were usually 500mAh
    > though there were also small 225mAh packs for the little 1/2A models. I
    > have no idea what the R/C guys are using now.
    >

    Here, they are using ethanol. A tiny reciprocating engine with a spark plug,
    which is activated only at start (the spark plug).
    I am using Sanyo normal NiMHs on my maglite, and one charge lasts me months
    (I use it occassionaly, eg when I have to check a water heater which is in a
    dark closet). I also have MW batteries that came with the 6 euros 150 mA
    constant curent charger (certainly made in China) and I get a week or more
    battery life in my little transistor radio which I use at work, also 9-5. I
    also found a pair of MINWA (MW) batteries in my satchel, that were there
    since last summer (I use it when I go to the beach) and I measured them, and
    they appear to be charged. (Common NiMHs, 2000 mAh, not Eneloops). I stronly
    recommend you go out to your town/city and check what's on sale, compare
    prices/brands and the like, even for a couple of batteries.


    HTH,



    --
    Tzortzakakis Dimitrios
    major in electrical engineering
    mechanized infantry reservist
    hordad AT otenet DOT gr
     
    Tzortzakakis Dimitrios, Jun 25, 2008
    #6
  7. ransley

    ASAAR Guest

    On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 19:40:37 +0300, Tzortzakakis Dimitrios wrote:

    >> As for the R/C stuff, that was over 30 years ago; we only had NiCd then
    >> and the battery packs came already made up, no individual cells. (Maybe
    >> individual cells for electric power, dunno about that -- it was rare
    >> anyway.) The flight packs for conventional planes were usually 500mAh
    >> though there were also small 225mAh packs for the little 1/2A models. I
    >> have no idea what the R/C guys are using now.
    >>

    >
    > Here, they are using ethanol. A tiny reciprocating engine with a spark plug,
    > which is activated only at start (the spark plug).


    Spark plug? Here (in the USA) it was called a glow plug, and it
    was hooked up to a very low voltage, high current cell. Screwed
    into the tops of various engine heads. K&B Torp. .35, Enya, etc.,
    but for powering U-Control combat planes, not RC. OK, cub? :)

    http://www.okengines.com/news.shtml
     
    ASAAR, Jun 25, 2008
    #7
  8. ransley

    ransley Guest

    On Jun 25, 11:40 am, "Tzortzakakis Dimitrios" <>
    wrote:
    > Ï "Neil Harrington" <> Ýãñáøå óôï ìÞíõìánews:...
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > "ransley" <> wrote in message
    > >news:....
    > > On Jun 24, 5:43 pm, "Neil Harrington" <> wrote:
    > >> "ransley" <> wrote in message

    >
    > >>news:....

    >
    > >> Have you put a V meter on them to see if they even charge and what the
    > >> discharge is. I can let them sit a month and still have use, but not
    > >> cheap no names. Try Eneloop are a different design, but measure what
    > >> voltage your chargers give, mine charge to 1.5v or so

    >
    > >> ________________

    >
    > >> Good idea, I will check the charging voltages. But my Maha chargers are
    > >> the
    > >> same ones I've been using with other NiMH cells for a long time, with no
    > >> problems.

    >
    > >> As for discharge, I suppose I could get a suitable resistor from Radio
    > >> Shack, rig up a multitester somehow and plot the discharge curve -- but
    > >> that's really more tedious than I care to get into, unless there's a
    > >> simpler
    > >> method that hasn't occurred to me. I used to do that 30+ years ago with
    > >> NiCd
    > >> battery packs when I was flying R/C models.

    >
    > >> Neil

    >
    > > I just meant check the voltage when  they dont work, my old old cells
    > > still charge to 1.35-4, it could be the camera, but Sanyo, Panasonic,
    > > Duracell, Energiser are good. Running RC stuff im suprised you dont
    > > stick with Sanyo as they are the standard of quality. Eneloops I think
    > > are the way to go, slightly less amps but a little self discharge.

    >
    > > ______________________

    >
    > > OK, I see what you mean. But I'd still have to check the voltage under
    > > load for it to have any meaning, wouldn't I? Or isn't that so?

    >
    > > As for the R/C stuff, that was over 30 years ago; we only had NiCd then
    > > and the battery packs came already made up, no individual cells. (Maybe
    > > individual cells for electric power, dunno about that -- it was rare
    > > anyway.) The flight packs for conventional planes were usually 500mAh
    > > though there were also small 225mAh packs for the little 1/2A models. I
    > > have no idea what the R/C guys are using now.

    >
    > Here, they are using ethanol. A tiny reciprocating engine with a spark plug,
    > which is activated only at start (the spark plug).
    > I am using Sanyo normal NiMHs on my maglite, and one charge lasts me months
    > (I use it occassionaly, eg when I have to check a water heater which is in a
    > dark closet). I also have MW batteries that came with the 6 euros 150 mA
    > constant curent charger (certainly made in China) and I get a week or more
    > battery life in my little transistor radio which I use at work, also 9-5. I
    > also found a pair of MINWA (MW) batteries in my satchel, that were there
    > since last summer (I use it when I go to the beach) and I measured them, and
    > they appear to be charged. (Common NiMHs, 2000 mAh, not Eneloops). I stronly
    > recommend you go out to your town/city and check what's on sale, compare
    > prices/brands and the like, even for a couple of batteries.
    >
    > HTH,
    >
    > --
    > Tzortzakakis Dimitrios
    > major in electrical engineering
    > mechanized infantry reservist
    > hordad AT otenet DOT gr- Hide quoted text -
    >
    > - Show quoted text -


    That would be Nitro Methane and perhaps alcohol and oil, and its for
    your camera?
     
    ransley, Jun 25, 2008
    #8
  9. ransley

    ASAAR Guest

    On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 16:39:54 -0400, Neil Harrington wrote:

    >> http://www.okengines.com/news.shtml

    >
    > That's interesting. Those are obviously versions of the old Cox engines,
    > though the ones illustrated are front intake rather than the rear intake
    > with reed valve engines mentioned in the text.


    How old are the Cox engines? I only vaguely recall the name. The
    first engine I had was a Herkimer OK Cub .049 (mid to late 1950's),
    and it looked pretty much like the ones on the above web page. Here
    are a few of the kits I put together for larger engines :

    http://www.controllineplans.com/Images/flitestreak.gif
    http://www.controllineplans.com/Images/ringmaster.gif
    http://www.controllineplans.com/Images/t2.gif


    > One somewhat irksome thing about the reed-valve engines was that they'd run
    > equally happily in either direction, and depending on one's prop flipping
    > technique they'd start up running backwards as often as not.


    Been there, done that - and learned to either wear a glove or to
    wind a piece of cloth around my flipping finger! :)

    BTW, here's a question from the chicken/egg dep't. I recall buying
    some cans of "hot" nitromethane fuel, also back in the late 1950's.
    Were competitive race cars/dragsters also using it back then?
     
    ASAAR, Jun 26, 2008
    #9
  10. Ï "Neil Harrington" <> Ýãñáøå óôï ìÞíõìá
    news:...
    >
    > "Tzortzakakis Dimitrios" <> wrote in message
    > news:g3tse5$f64$...
    >>
    >> Ï "Neil Harrington" <> Ýãñáøå óôï ìÞíõìá
    >> news:...

    >
    >
    >>>
    >>> As for the R/C stuff, that was over 30 years ago; we only had NiCd then
    >>> and the battery packs came already made up, no individual cells. (Maybe
    >>> individual cells for electric power, dunno about that -- it was rare
    >>> anyway.) The flight packs for conventional planes were usually 500mAh
    >>> though there were also small 225mAh packs for the little 1/2A models. I
    >>> have no idea what the R/C guys are using now.
    >>>

    >> Here, they are using ethanol. A tiny reciprocating engine with a spark
    >> plug, which is activated only at start (the spark plug).

    >
    > Are you sure that's a spark plug and not a glow plug? When I flew R/C
    > everyone was using glow plug engines, running on a basically alcohol and
    > oil mix


    Yeah, right a glow plug, I think it was castor oil and ethanol, my friend
    did that, back in the '80s...
    >
    >
    >> I am using Sanyo normal NiMHs on my maglite, and one charge lasts me
    >> months (I use it occassionaly, eg when I have to check a water heater
    >> which is in a dark closet). I also have MW batteries that came with the 6
    >> euros 150 mA

    >
    > What are MW batteries?
    >

    Minwa. A chinese brand common here. I got them in an electrician's hardware
    shop, where I pay bulk prices.
    >
    >> constant curent charger (certainly made in China) and I get a week or
    >> more battery life in my little transistor radio which I use at work, also
    >> 9-5. I also found a pair of MINWA (MW) batteries in my satchel, that were
    >> there since last summer (I use it when I go to the beach) and I measured
    >> them, and they appear to be charged. (Common NiMHs, 2000 mAh, not
    >> Eneloops). I stronly recommend you go out to your town/city and check
    >> what's on sale, compare prices/brands and the like, even for a couple of
    >> batteries.

    >
    > Wal-Mart has NiMH batteries at good prices; probably I will try some of
    > those. My sister uses them in her camera and has had very good results.
    >


    --
    Tzortzakakis Dimitrios
    major in electrical engineering
    mechanized infantry reservist
    hordad AT otenet DOT gr
     
    Tzortzakakis Dimitrios, Jun 26, 2008
    #10
  11. ? "ransley" <> ?????? ??? ??????
    news:...
    On Jun 25, 11:40 am, "Tzortzakakis Dimitrios" <>
    wrote:
    > Ï "Neil Harrington" <> Ýãñáøå óôï
    > ìÞíõìánews:...
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > "ransley" <> wrote in message
    > >news:...
    > > On Jun 24, 5:43 pm, "Neil Harrington" <> wrote:
    > >> "ransley" <> wrote in message

    >
    > >>news:...

    >
    > >> Have you put a V meter on them to see if they even charge and what the
    > >> discharge is. I can let them sit a month and still have use, but not
    > >> cheap no names. Try Eneloop are a different design, but measure what
    > >> voltage your chargers give, mine charge to 1.5v or so

    >
    > >> ________________

    >
    > >> Good idea, I will check the charging voltages. But my Maha chargers are
    > >> the
    > >> same ones I've been using with other NiMH cells for a long time, with
    > >> no
    > >> problems.

    >
    > >> As for discharge, I suppose I could get a suitable resistor from Radio
    > >> Shack, rig up a multitester somehow and plot the discharge curve -- but
    > >> that's really more tedious than I care to get into, unless there's a
    > >> simpler
    > >> method that hasn't occurred to me. I used to do that 30+ years ago with
    > >> NiCd
    > >> battery packs when I was flying R/C models.

    >
    > >> Neil

    >
    > > I just meant check the voltage when they dont work, my old old cells
    > > still charge to 1.35-4, it could be the camera, but Sanyo, Panasonic,
    > > Duracell, Energiser are good. Running RC stuff im suprised you dont
    > > stick with Sanyo as they are the standard of quality. Eneloops I think
    > > are the way to go, slightly less amps but a little self discharge.

    >
    > > ______________________

    >
    > > OK, I see what you mean. But I'd still have to check the voltage under
    > > load for it to have any meaning, wouldn't I? Or isn't that so?

    >
    > > As for the R/C stuff, that was over 30 years ago; we only had NiCd then
    > > and the battery packs came already made up, no individual cells. (Maybe
    > > individual cells for electric power, dunno about that -- it was rare
    > > anyway.) The flight packs for conventional planes were usually 500mAh
    > > though there were also small 225mAh packs for the little 1/2A models. I
    > > have no idea what the R/C guys are using now.

    >
    > Here, they are using ethanol. A tiny reciprocating engine with a spark
    > plug,
    > which is activated only at start (the spark plug).
    > I am using Sanyo normal NiMHs on my maglite, and one charge lasts me
    > months
    > (I use it occassionaly, eg when I have to check a water heater which is in
    > a
    > dark closet). I also have MW batteries that came with the 6 euros 150 mA
    > constant curent charger (certainly made in China) and I get a week or more
    > battery life in my little transistor radio which I use at work, also 9-5.
    > I
    > also found a pair of MINWA (MW) batteries in my satchel, that were there
    > since last summer (I use it when I go to the beach) and I measured them,
    > and
    > they appear to be charged. (Common NiMHs, 2000 mAh, not Eneloops). I
    > stronly
    > recommend you go out to your town/city and check what's on sale, compare
    > prices/brands and the like, even for a couple of batteries.
    >
    > HTH,
    >
    > --
    > Tzortzakakis Dimitrios
    > major in electrical engineering
    > mechanized infantry reservist
    > hordad AT otenet DOT gr- Hide quoted text -
    >
    > - Show quoted text -


    That would be Nitro Methane and perhaps alcohol and oil, and its for
    your camera?


    No, my camera uses electricity:-0


    --
    Tzortzakakis Dimitrios
    major in electrical engineering
    mechanized infantry reservist
    hordad AT otenet DOT gr
     
    Tzortzakakis Dimitrios, Jun 26, 2008
    #11
  12. Ï "Neil Harrington" <> Ýãñáøå óôï ìÞíõìá
    news:...
    >
    > "ASAAR" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 16:39:54 -0400, Neil Harrington wrote:
    >>
    >>>> http://www.okengines.com/news.shtml
    >>>
    >>> That's interesting. Those are obviously versions of the old Cox engines,
    >>> though the ones illustrated are front intake rather than the rear intake
    >>> with reed valve engines mentioned in the text.

    >>
    >> How old are the Cox engines? I only vaguely recall the name. The
    >> first engine I had was a Herkimer OK Cub .049 (mid to late 1950's),

    >
    > I hate to admit it, but I don't think I ever heard of the Herkimer OK Cub
    > before. When I saw that other page you linked to I thought it was probably
    > some newer manufacturer making the old Cox engines, but from what you say
    > Herkimer must have been just about contemporary, because I think it was
    > the mid to late 1950s that I built some control liners using the Cox
    > engines. Maybe the early 1960s, I can't really be sure. So perhaps
    > Herkimer came first and Cox bought their engine design or something like
    > that.
    >
    >
    >> and it looked pretty much like the ones on the above web page. Here
    >> are a few of the kits I put together for larger engines :
    >>
    >> http://www.controllineplans.com/Images/flitestreak.gif
    >> http://www.controllineplans.com/Images/ringmaster.gif
    >> http://www.controllineplans.com/Images/t2.gif

    >
    > Interesting. I never made any control liners with built-up wings -- mine
    > were all the small .049-powered jobs with all the parts solid balsa. The
    > standard lines were only 26 feet I remember, so you got pretty dizzy.
    > :)
    >
    > It wasn't until I got into R/C in the early 1970s that I built anything
    > larger and with more complex construction.
    >
    > That was an awful lot of fun and I sort of miss it, but on the other hand
    > it's so much easier to fly on a computer -- not all that building (or
    > repairing after pilot error, either). And the club I belonged to in those
    > days kept losing flying fields because of neighbors' complaints about
    > noise.
    >
    >>
    >>
    >>> One somewhat irksome thing about the reed-valve engines was that they'd
    >>> run
    >>> equally happily in either direction, and depending on one's prop
    >>> flipping
    >>> technique they'd start up running backwards as often as not.

    >>
    >> Been there, done that - and learned to either wear a glove or to
    >> wind a piece of cloth around my flipping finger! :)

    >
    > Yes, they were nasty. The little .049s seemed the nastiest too, probably
    > because the props were so light they had almost no inertia and could bite
    > you quickly. The larger engines always seemed to me to be less dangerous
    > in that respect, and not running backwards was a pleasant change also.
    >
    > Some of the later Cox .049s came with a coil spring around the prop shaft
    > housing with a hook you could put over a prop blade, then wind it backward
    > a couple of turns, let it go and it'd start the engine. That actually
    > worked surprisingly well, prevented injury to the finger and also
    > prevented the running-backwards problem.
    >
    >>
    >> BTW, here's a question from the chicken/egg dep't. I recall buying
    >> some cans of "hot" nitromethane fuel, also back in the late 1950's.
    >> Were competitive race cars/dragsters also using it back then?

    >
    > I remember that too -- cans of glow plug fuel with different proportions
    > of nitro as I recall. But I have no idea whether dragsters etc. were using
    > it at that time.
    >

    I never did modelling, never had the money. But I had the pleasure of seeing
    one of the largest engines that exist. It was a 15,000 HP two-stroke diesel
    in our local power station. Its piston was like a small table, its valves
    like a room trash bin. It's turbo charged, and has a final steam stage, for
    greater efficiency. In the new power station, they have 70,000 HP diesels,
    but I haven't visited them yet. These engines start with common diesel fuel,
    and when they warm up, they first go to a diesel/mazut mixture, and then
    pure mazut. A 11 MW, 15,000 HP burns 11 tons an hour:) I promise to post
    some photos, as soon as I'm able to visit them again. (The most powerful
    engine that exists, delivers 2,500,000 HP on one shaft, and is the turbine
    of a nuclear power plant, 1300 MW)


    --
    Tzortzakakis Dimitrios
    major in electrical engineering
    mechanized infantry reservist
    hordad AT otenet DOT gr
     
    Tzortzakakis Dimitrios, Jun 26, 2008
    #12
  13. ransley

    John Turco Guest

    Neil Harrington wrote:

    <edited for brevity>

    > As for the R/C stuff, that was over 30 years ago; we only had NiCd then and
    > the battery packs came already made up, no individual cells. (Maybe
    > individual cells for electric power, dunno about that -- it was rare
    > anyway.) The flight packs for conventional planes were usually 500mAh though
    > there were also small 225mAh packs for the little 1/2A models. I have no
    > idea what the R/C guys are using now.
    >
    > Neil



    Hello, Neil:

    These days, even R/C airplanes' >motors<, themselves, can be electric! My,
    how technology has evolved, during the past three decades or so. ;-)


    Cordially,
    John Turco <>
     
    John Turco, Jun 27, 2008
    #13
  14. ransley

    John Turco Guest

    ASAAR wrote:
    >
    > On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 16:39:54 -0400, Neil Harrington wrote:


    <edited for brevity>

    > > One somewhat irksome thing about the reed-valve engines was that they'd run
    > > equally happily in either direction, and depending on one's prop flipping
    > > technique they'd start up running backwards as often as not.

    >
    > Been there, done that - and learned to either wear a glove or to
    > wind a piece of cloth around my flipping finger! :)


    <edited>

    Hello, ASAAR:

    Never heard of a "chicken stick," I presume? <g>


    Cordially,
    John Turco <>
     
    John Turco, Jun 27, 2008
    #14
  15. ransley

    John Turco Guest

    Neil Harrington wrote:

    <edited for brevity>

    > Interesting. I never made any control liners with built-up wings -- mine
    > were all the small .049-powered jobs with all the parts solid balsa. The
    > standard lines were only 26 feet I remember, so you got pretty dizzy. :)
    >
    > It wasn't until I got into R/C in the early 1970s that I built anything
    > larger and with more complex construction.


    <edited>

    Hello, Neil:

    I was most intrigued by rubber-powered, stick-and-tissue airplanes, during
    my model-building days, long ago. Still, I did assemble an all-wood, control
    line kit ("Li'l Wizard," by Carl Goldberg), once; it handled, very nicely.

    Never did fly any R/C craft, alas. My only experience has been with toy-like,
    electric cars and army tanks.

    I do own some cheap, electric R/C planes, but, haven't even tried them out.
    (Had 'em, for several years, in fact.)

    Oh, well...one day, perhaps. :-J


    Cordially,
    John Turco <>
     
    John Turco, Jun 27, 2008
    #15
  16. ransley

    ASAAR Guest

    On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 22:10:19 -0500, John Turco wrote:

    >>> One somewhat irksome thing about the reed-valve engines was that they'd run
    >>> equally happily in either direction, and depending on one's prop flipping
    >>> technique they'd start up running backwards as often as not.

    >>
    >> Been there, done that - and learned to either wear a glove or to
    >> wind a piece of cloth around my flipping finger! :)

    >
    > <edited>
    >
    > Hello, ASAAR:
    >
    > Never heard of a "chicken stick," I presume? <g>


    Never. But I think that I tried something like that once. Only
    once, because even without the pain, it felt so bad . . . :)


    [from another msg.]
    > I was most intrigued by rubber-powered, stick-and-tissue airplanes, during
    > my model-building days, long ago. Still, I did assemble an all-wood, control
    > line kit ("Li'l Wizard," by Carl Goldberg), once; it handled, very nicely.


    I recall the name, but not the "Li'l Wizard". Do you recall the
    name "Riley Wooten"? I built some of the kits of models that he
    designed. I also used to buy lots of magazines, for the articles,
    reviews and ads. Ok, ok. I enjoyed looking at the pictures too.
    :)

    I was also intrigued by the rubber-powered "free flight"
    airplanes, especially the super-light indoor types. They saved a
    lot of weight by substituting a thin microfilm (somewhat like a soap
    bubble) for the "doped" tissue (silkspan) that normally covered the
    wings. Follow link below to amazing info. :)

    http://www.ctie.monash.edu.au/hargrave/vffs_what_are_ff_models.html

    I wish that I had saved one of the magazines. It contained an
    article with photos, that described building super-super-light
    "horsefly" powered airplanes, including how to safely glue the fly
    to the plane, and described the longevity of these "motors".
    Hints: After catching the horseflies, chill them in a refrigerator
    until too lethargic to move. Then glue them to the tiny, thin
    fuselage, taking care that their legs aren't accidentally glued, as
    that interfered with wing movement.
     
    ASAAR, Jun 27, 2008
    #16
  17. Ï "Neil Harrington" <> Ýãñáøå óôï ìÞíõìá
    news:...
    >
    > "Tzortzakakis Dimitrios" <> wrote in message
    > news:g40qvo$hh7$...
    >>
    >>
    >>>

    >> I never did modelling, never had the money. But I had the pleasure of
    >> seeing one of the largest engines that exist. It was a 15,000 HP
    >> two-stroke diesel in our local power station. Its piston was like a small
    >> table, its valves like a room trash bin. It's turbo charged, and has a
    >> final steam stage, for greater efficiency. In the new power station, they
    >> have 70,000 HP diesels, but I haven't visited them yet. These engines
    >> start with common diesel fuel, and when they warm up, they first go to a
    >> diesel/mazut mixture, and then pure mazut.

    >
    > What's mazut?
    >

    Heavy fuel (you know the song, IIRC from Dire Straits if you wanna run cool,
    you've got to run on heavy fuel, heavy fuel). It's a heavy fraction of oil,
    as thick as honey. It's very cheap, much cheaper than diesel, and is used as
    a fuel in large diesels, above 10,000 HP, and in steam engines, burnt by
    special burners. Mazut needs preheating, to make it flow easier, so the
    engine needs to work for some minutes before mazut can be used,
    >
    >> A 11 MW, 15,000 HP burns 11 tons an hour:) I promise to post some
    >> photos, as soon as I'm able to visit them again. (The most powerful
    >> engine that exists, delivers 2,500,000 HP on one shaft, and is the
    >> turbine of a nuclear power plant, 1300 MW)

    >
    > Amazing, and very interesting.
    >

    The largest diesel is 100,000 HP, see here www.wartsila.com Above that, only
    steam turbines.



    --
    Tzortzakakis Dimitrios
    major in electrical engineering
    mechanized infantry reservist
    hordad AT otenet DOT gr
     
    Tzortzakakis Dimitrios, Jun 27, 2008
    #17
  18. ransley

    ASAAR Guest

    On Fri, 27 Jun 2008 09:03:36 -0400, Neil Harrington wrote:

    > I remember reading an article about that when I was a kid, at least 60+
    > years ago! The one I read didn't go into that much detail; I think it had
    > one photo of a very tiny flying model, to the nose of which the builder had
    > cemented a fly by its rear end -- I think just a common house fly in this
    > case. Ordinary model airplane cement was very fast drying, just the thing
    > needed for this kind of experiment.
    >
    > The magazine was probably Flying Aces, which I read regularly in those days,
    > though it might have been Model Airplane News.


    I don't recall ever seeing Flying Aces. The article I read may
    have appeared in Model Airplane News or one other, whose title I
    can't recall. Got the magazines in the Bronx Hobby Shop which was
    just a couple of doors down from Lafayette Electronics. That was
    what Radio Shack should, but never was and will never be. :)
     
    ASAAR, Jun 27, 2008
    #18
  19. ransley

    John Turco Guest

    Neil Harrington wrote:
    >
    > "John Turco" <> wrote in message


    <edited for brevity>

    > > I was most intrigued by rubber-powered, stick-and-tissue airplanes, during
    > > my model-building days, long ago.


    <edited>

    > I remember the rubber-powered stick and tissue models with great affection,
    > though I was never very good at building them. I'd be tempted to get back
    > into rubber-powered free flight now myself, if I didn't already have too
    > many hobbies and too little sense of organization and discipline.


    Hello, Neil:

    My first such kit was a Guillow's Hawker "Hurricane," which I purchased
    at a local "Rexalls" drugstore; it cost the "exorbitant" sum of 69 cents,
    in 1966!

    (Hey, that was a lot of money, for a 12-year-old kid, back then. <g>)

    Unfortunately, it took me another four years (and many failures), before
    I was finally able to coax one of those stubborn, tissue-covered "birds"
    to actually take flight.

    > Several years ago a high school a few towns away from where I live used to
    > hold indoor free flight events in its very large gym, mostly the little
    > "peanut scale" models and also the old traditional ultra-light,
    > microfilm-covered indoor models with big, slow-turning microfilm-covered
    > props, that flew at about the speed of a slow walk. That was really
    > something to see.
    >
    > I ought to find out if they're still having those events, and take some
    > photos if they are.
    >
    > Regards,
    >
    > Neil


    Certainly, they're still around! Here's a pertinent Web site I'd stumbled
    upon, while doing a Google search, recently:

    Hip Pocket Aeronautics <http://www.hippocketaeronautics.com>


    Cordially,
    John Turco <>
     
    John Turco, Jul 4, 2008
    #19
  20. ransley

    John Turco Guest

    ASAAR wrote:
    >
    > On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 22:10:19 -0500, John Turco wrote:


    <edited for brevity>

    > > Never heard of a "chicken stick," I presume? <g>

    >
    > Never. But I think that I tried something like that once. Only
    > once, because even without the pain, it felt so bad . . . :)
    >
    > [from another msg.]
    > > I was most intrigued by rubber-powered, stick-and-tissue airplanes, during
    > > my model-building days, long ago. Still, I did assemble an all-wood, control
    > > line kit ("Li'l Wizard," by Carl Goldberg), once; it handled, very nicely.

    >
    > I recall the name, but not the "Li'l Wizard". Do you recall the
    > name "Riley Wooten"? I built some of the kits of models that he
    > designed. I also used to buy lots of magazines, for the articles,
    > reviews and ads. Ok, ok. I enjoyed looking at the pictures too.
    > :)


    Hello, ASAAR:

    Sorry...."Riley Wooten" doesn't ring any bells, with me.

    As for the Li'l Wizard, my Google searches, last week, revealed
    that it was a somewhat highly regarded trainer.

    Here's an example:

    Hip Pocket Aeronautics - Carl Goldberg Li'l Wizard
    <http://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/cl_tr_gbwizard.htm>

    Kinda cute, eh? The depicted specimen happens to feature a color
    scheme (red & silver), comparable to the one I'd used, on my own
    kit.

    > I was also intrigued by the rubber-powered "free flight"
    > airplanes, especially the super-light indoor types. They saved a
    > lot of weight by substituting a thin microfilm (somewhat like a soap
    > bubble) for the "doped" tissue (silkspan) that normally covered the
    > wings. Follow link below to amazing info. :)
    >
    > http://www.ctie.monash.edu.au/hargrave/vffs_what_are_ff_models.html


    Yeah, I saw some of those strange contraptions, in my old model
    magazines.

    > I wish that I had saved one of the magazines. It contained an
    > article with photos, that described building super-super-light
    > "horsefly" powered airplanes, including how to safely glue the fly
    > to the plane, and described the longevity of these "motors".
    > Hints: After catching the horseflies, chill them in a refrigerator
    > until too lethargic to move. Then glue them to the tiny, thin
    > fuselage, taking care that their legs aren't accidentally glued, as
    > that interfered with wing movement.


    As much as I despise flies (and bugs, in general), even >I< wouldn't
    commit such cruelty! :p


    Cordially,
    John Turco <>
     
    John Turco, Jul 4, 2008
    #20
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