Re: Geeze! The news keeps getting worser & worser

Discussion in 'Computer Support' started by Dan C, May 3, 2010.

  1. Dan C

    Dan C Guest

    On Mon, 03 May 2010 14:45:43 -0600, §nühw¤£f wrote:

    > Analysis by some engineer about the volume and possible scenarios if
    > things dont get patched up down there:
    > http://

    pesn.com/2010/05/02/9501643_Mother_of_all_gushers_could_kill_Earths_oceans/
    >
    > Yikes.


    Yeah, sure makes you wonder why our "president" isn't doing anything
    about it, eh?



    --
    "Ubuntu" -- an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me".
    "Bother!" said Pooh, as he sent another AreaFix message.
    Usenet Improvement Project: http://twovoyagers.com/improve-usenet.org/
    Thanks, Obama: http://brandybuck.site40.net/pics/politica/thanks.jpg
    Dan C, May 3, 2010
    #1
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  2. Dan C

    Jordon Guest

    Dan C wrote:
    > On Mon, 03 May 2010 14:45:43 -0600, §nühw¤£f wrote:
    >
    >> Analysis by some engineer about the volume and possible scenarios if
    >> things dont get patched up down there:
    >> http://

    > pesn.com/2010/05/02/9501643_Mother_of_all_gushers_could_kill_Earths_oceans/
    >>
    >> Yikes.

    >
    > Yeah, sure makes you wonder why our "president" isn't doing anything
    > about it, eh?


    Which "president" was it that lifted federal oversight
    that required the use of acoustic couplers that would
    have prevented this spill?
    Jordon, May 3, 2010
    #2
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  3. Dan C

    OldGringo38 Guest

    On 5/3/2010 4:01 PM, Dan C wrote:
    > On Mon, 03 May 2010 14:45:43 -0600, §nühw¤£f wrote:
    >
    >> Analysis by some engineer about the volume and possible scenarios if
    >> things dont get patched up down there:
    >> http://

    > pesn.com/2010/05/02/9501643_Mother_of_all_gushers_could_kill_Earths_oceans/
    >>
    >> Yikes.

    >
    > Yeah, sure makes you wonder why our "president" isn't doing anything
    > about it, eh?
    >
    >
    >

    I suppose you want him to pout his finger in the hole?

    --
    OldGringo38
    Just West Of Nowhere
    Enjoy Life And Live It To Its Fullest
    http://www.NuBoy-Industries.Com
    OldGringo38, May 3, 2010
    #3
  4. ÿÿÿÿSnuhwolf <ÿÿÿÿ> wrote:

    >On 03 May 2010 21:01:32 GMT, Dan C <> wrote:
    >
    >>On Mon, 03 May 2010 14:45:43 -0600, §nühw¤£f wrote:
    >>
    >>> Analysis by some engineer about the volume and possible scenarios if
    >>> things dont get patched up down there:
    >>> http://

    >>pesn.com/2010/05/02/9501643_Mother_of_all_gushers_could_kill_Earths_oceans/
    >>>
    >>> Yikes.

    >>
    >>Yeah, sure makes you wonder why our "president" isn't doing anything
    >>about it, eh?
    >>
    >>

    >SO what is he??? Superman? Do you expect him to swim down to the bottom
    >of the ocean and plug it with his heat-vision???


    Isn't he The One (come to Save us all)?
    Codswallop Balderdash, May 4, 2010
    #4
  5. Dan C

    joevan Guest

    On Mon, 03 May 2010 15:01:10 -0700, Jordon
    <jordon@REMOVE~THISmyrealbox.com> wrote:

    >Dan C wrote:
    >> On Mon, 03 May 2010 14:45:43 -0600, §nühw¤£f wrote:
    >>
    >>> Analysis by some engineer about the volume and possible scenarios if
    >>> things dont get patched up down there:
    >>> http://

    >> pesn.com/2010/05/02/9501643_Mother_of_all_gushers_could_kill_Earths_oceans/
    >>>
    >>> Yikes.

    >>
    >> Yeah, sure makes you wonder why our "president" isn't doing anything
    >> about it, eh?

    >
    >Which "president" was it that lifted federal oversight
    >that required the use of acoustic couplers that would
    >have prevented this spill?

    It does no good to try to explain to idiots the facts. Their minds are
    made of crap so that is what comes forth.
    joevan, May 4, 2010
    #5
  6. Dan C

    NormanM Guest

    On Mon, 03 May 2010 20:27:57 -0500, §nühw¤£f wrote:

    > More mind control from the likes of the Beckster?


    Eh? Glen Beck couldn't control the mind of a hamster.

    BTW, Glen Beck and Sean Hannity are both younger than I. Even Rush Limbaugh
    was a mere sophomore in high school when I was debating fellow students (the
    "avante guarde" of the New Left) my senior year of high school. Seems the
    New Left has been dismayed by dissent from their "Perfect Solution" for at
    least 43 years.

    --
    Norman
    ~Oh Lord, why have you come
    ~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum
    NormanM, May 4, 2010
    #6
  7. Dan C

    Dan C Guest

    On Tue, 04 May 2010 09:03:15 -0700, NormanM wrote:

    > On Mon, 03 May 2010 20:27:57 -0500, §nühw¤£f wrote:
    >
    >> More mind control from the likes of the Beckster?

    >
    > Eh? Glen Beck couldn't control the mind of a hamster.


    Hehe. He sure does get you Libs' panties in a wad, though, eh?


    --
    "Ubuntu" -- an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me".
    "Bother!" said Pooh, as Christopher Robin pleaded to be spanked again.
    Usenet Improvement Project: http://twovoyagers.com/improve-usenet.org/
    Thanks, Obama: http://brandybuck.site40.net/pics/politica/thanks.jpg
    Dan C, May 4, 2010
    #7
  8. Dan C

    OldGringo38 Guest

    On 5/4/2010 3:05 PM, §nühw¤£f wrote:
    > NormanM wrote:
    >> On Mon, 03 May 2010 20:27:57 -0500, §nühw¤£f wrote:
    >>
    >>> More mind control from the likes of the Beckster?

    >>
    >> Eh? Glen Beck couldn't control the mind of a hamster.
    >>

    > So his ratings are poor and he has no followers?
    > Interesting.
    >
    >> BTW, Glen Beck and Sean Hannity are both younger than I.

    >
    > Age dos'nt equal wisdom.
    >
    >> Even Rush Limbaugh
    >> was a mere sophomore in high school when I was debating fellow
    >> students (the
    >> "avante guarde" of the New Left) my senior year of high school. Seems the
    >> New Left has been dismayed by dissent from their "Perfect Solution"
    >> for at
    >> least 43 years.
    >>

    >
    > Nice War Stories, grumpy gramps.
    >
    >

    Tiny Tim Had A Following:
    http://www.google.com/images?q=tbn:...=196&w=159&usg=__NeuKALcWNm-UwfbYfKJryhBCqwI=

    GET WITH THE PROGRAM DIPSTICK

    --
    OldGringo38
    Just West Of Nowhere
    Enjoy Life And Live It To Its Fullest
    http://www.NuBoy-Industries.Com
    OldGringo38, May 4, 2010
    #8
  9. Dan C

    OldGringo38 Guest

    On 5/4/2010 3:49 PM, §nühw¤£f wrote:
    > OldGringo38 wrote:
    >> On 5/4/2010 3:05 PM, §nühw¤£f wrote:
    >>> NormanM wrote:
    >>>> On Mon, 03 May 2010 20:27:57 -0500, §nühw¤£f wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> More mind control from the likes of the Beckster?
    >>>>
    >>>> Eh? Glen Beck couldn't control the mind of a hamster.
    >>>>
    >>> So his ratings are poor and he has no followers?
    >>> Interesting.
    >>>
    >>>> BTW, Glen Beck and Sean Hannity are both younger than I.
    >>>
    >>> Age dos'nt equal wisdom.
    >>>
    >>>> Even Rush Limbaugh
    >>>> was a mere sophomore in high school when I was debating fellow
    >>>> students (the
    >>>> "avante guarde" of the New Left) my senior year of high school.
    >>>> Seems the
    >>>> New Left has been dismayed by dissent from their "Perfect Solution"
    >>>> for at
    >>>> least 43 years.
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>> Nice War Stories, grumpy gramps.
    >>>
    >>>

    >> Tiny Tim Had A Following:
    >> http://www.google.com/images?q=tbn:...=196&w=159&usg=__NeuKALcWNm-UwfbYfKJryhBCqwI=
    >>
    >>
    >> GET WITH THE PROGRAM DIPSTICK
    >>

    > What is this? Poast a Random Link Day?
    >
    > Tiny Tim wasnt trying to lead a movement: Teabaggers.
    > (although it may be argued that he was in fact a "teabagging enthusiast)
    >
    > <nods>
    >

    :)

    --
    OldGringo38
    Just West Of Nowhere
    Enjoy Life And Live It To Its Fullest
    http://www.NuBoy-Industries.Com
    OldGringo38, May 4, 2010
    #9
  10. Dan C

    thanatoid Guest

    §nühw¤£f <> wrote in
    news:hrva3k$fm3$:

    <SNIP>

    I hate to sound like the complete idiot I have always been in
    many respects and am completely AFA this issue...

    I know what the Boston Tea Party was about, more or less, but as
    much as I have tried, I have been unable to figure out what the
    current term "teabagger" means. Aside from the fact I dislike
    labels (even "liberal" and "conservative" are largely
    meaningless), I can't even figure out which subdivision of which
    of those two the term applies to. Or is it a new animal?

    Please help me... Please...


    --
    "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is
    time to pause and reflect."
    - Mark Twain
    thanatoid, May 6, 2010
    #10
  11. Dan C

    thanatoid Guest

    §nühw¤£f <> wrote in
    news::

    > thanatoid wrote:


    <SNIP>

    >> I know what the Boston Tea Party was about, more or less,
    >> but as much as I have tried, I have been unable to figure
    >> out what the current term "teabagger" means.


    <SNIP>

    > You need to start reading www.bartcop.com
    > Theres a nice rant by him about what the rethugs are
    > whineing about since they *finally* found out wtf
    > "teabagging" means. Hint: it involves a scrotum.


    I have been there a few times, but in the interest of retaining
    the little sanity I have left, I have stopped reading
    alternative (even if somewhat humorous) newssites (I never read
    any official ones, and I do not use mainstream media).

    Your answer is appreciated, although it is utterly useless, no
    offense. Maybe you will get a burst of energy or someone else
    will tell me. BTW, I tried the Wiki def. already, it did not
    help. I may just be stupider than I thought.


    --
    "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is
    time to pause and reflect."
    - Mark Twain
    thanatoid, May 6, 2010
    #11
  12. Dan C

    thanatoid Guest

    "§nühw¤£f" <> wrote in
    news:Xns9D714FF116CBCsnuhwolfyahoocom@216.196.97.142:

    <SNIP>

    > Really? The g00g aint workin for yas?


    Usually, not always. Maybe I'm just getting really old and
    really dumb.

    > Ok...heres the straight dope: "Teabagging" when a guy rests
    > his nut sack on another guys chin when getting a blowjob.
    >
    > HTH


    Not really. BTW, I /believe/ - not that I really care - that
    only one person has to have balls for it to be called
    teabagging, but that is not what I am trying to understand (and
    really don't care, sex is generally repugnant enough without
    imagining the taste of a sweaty smelly scrotum in someone's
    mouth).

    I want to know what the term means as applied these days to
    people of a certain political /orientation/ or /tendency/ or
    /trendiness/ - I am still confused, Wiki did not help, I checked
    a couple of other defs, they did not either.

    I would not bother anyone here - let alone display my appalling
    ignorance - if I could find the answer easily enough. Maybe I'm
    just too stupid to understand all the intricacies of the US
    political system. Sure seems strange that someone can win a
    presidential election without actually getting the majority
    vote, and that the two parties seem to be basically the same.

    Etc...

    Still clueless,
    t.


    --
    "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is
    time to pause and reflect."
    - Mark Twain
    thanatoid, May 7, 2010
    #12
  13. Dan C

    Jordon Guest

    thanatoid wrote:
    > "§nühw¤£f"<> wrote in
    > news:Xns9D714FF116CBCsnuhwolfyahoocom@216.196.97.142:
    >
    > <SNIP>
    >
    >> Really? The g00g aint workin for yas?

    >
    > Usually, not always. Maybe I'm just getting really old and
    > really dumb.
    >
    >> Ok...heres the straight dope: "Teabagging" when a guy rests
    >> his nut sack on another guys chin when getting a blowjob.
    >>
    >> HTH

    >
    > Not really. BTW, I /believe/ - not that I really care - that
    > only one person has to have balls for it to be called
    > teabagging, but that is not what I am trying to understand (and
    > really don't care, sex is generally repugnant enough without
    > imagining the taste of a sweaty smelly scrotum in someone's
    > mouth).
    >
    > I want to know what the term means as applied these days to
    > people of a certain political /orientation/ or /tendency/ or
    > /trendiness/ - I am still confused, Wiki did not help, I checked
    > a couple of other defs, they did not either.
    >
    > I would not bother anyone here - let alone display my appalling
    > ignorance - if I could find the answer easily enough. Maybe I'm
    > just too stupid to understand all the intricacies of the US
    > political system. Sure seems strange that someone can win a
    > presidential election without actually getting the majority
    > vote, and that the two parties seem to be basically the same.


    <http://voices.washingtonpost.com/right-now/2010/05/a_peoples_history_of_teabag.html>
    Jordon, May 7, 2010
    #13
  14. Dan C

    thanatoid Guest

    (§nühw¤£f) wrote in
    news::

    > thanatoid <> clouded the waters of
    > pure thought with:


    <SNIP>

    >> > HTH

    >>
    >> Not really. BTW, I /believe/ - not that I really care -
    >> that only one person has to have balls for it to be called
    >> teabagging, but that is not what I am trying to understand
    >> (and really don't care, sex is generally repugnant enough
    >> without imagining the taste of a sweaty smelly scrotum in
    >> someone's mouth).
    >>

    > If you dont like cock dont suck any?
    > <shrugs>


    I find the mental image rather unpleasant.

    >> I want to know what the term means as applied these days
    >> to people of a certain political /orientation/ or
    >> /tendency/ or /trendiness/ - I am still confused, Wiki did
    >> not help, I checked a couple of other defs, they did not
    >> either.
    >>

    > AFAIK, its like an acronym...Taxed Enough Already?


    Well, that's /something/...

    > But the movement was astroturf from the get-go. Its heavily
    > funded by conservative groups and promoted by Fox "news".
    >
    > Google this: Koch industries fund Tea party movement.
    >
    > FYI


    Aha.

    <SNIP>

    > Its the appearance of democracy. The status quo is
    > maintained when you give the appearance of choice between
    > two candidates who are both beholden to the monied
    > interests that support them.


    I know that. Just mentioned it, probably unnecessarily. Although
    unless it's simply a monarchy, the person the LEAST people want
    always wins (let alone when there's more then two major parties
    - in some countries there are dozens, what a travesty), which is
    kind of curious about "democracy". But then again, since they're
    all the same... THAT'S why I wasn't gonna talk about any of this
    stuff anymore.


    --
    "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is
    time to pause and reflect."
    - Mark Twain
    thanatoid, May 8, 2010
    #14
  15. Dan C

    thanatoid Guest

    §nühw¤£f <> wrote in
    news:hs3soo$dse$:

    > In message <Xns9D71E0FCF2402thanexit@188.40.43.230>,
    > thanatoid pondered the following:
    >> (§nühw¤£f) wrote in
    >> news::
    >> > thanatoid <> clouded the waters
    >> > of pure thought with:


    >> I find the mental image rather unpleasant.
    >>

    > I find it odd the great lengths guys on usenet go to make
    > it known that they are "straight".


    Do you find "they" do that more on the Usenet than in RL?
    I never understood sex, I can never turn my mind off, I always
    think "what the hell am I doing here? This is SO ridiculous.",
    and some aspects of it are just more repugnant than others.

    >> > AFAIK, its like an acronym...Taxed Enough Already?

    >>
    >> Well, that's /something/...
    >>

    > Everyone wants "low taxes" but when the roads dont get
    > fixed and theres no money for a new fire engine...they
    > whine about that too. People are fucking stupid.


    No big news there. I meant at least you explained the t/e/a
    thing...

    >> > But the movement was astroturf from the get-go. Its
    >> > heavily funded by conservative groups and promoted by
    >> > Fox "news".


    I have no access to "Fox News" but it really sounds peculiar.
    Although the supposedly left-wing angle of MSNBC (which I don't
    see either) sounds equally peculiar. If you didn't have two
    roosters fighting in the ring, you might start thinking about
    things that actually matter.

    <SNIP>

    >> > Its the appearance of democracy. The status quo is
    >> > maintained when you give the appearance of choice
    >> > between two candidates who are both beholden to the
    >> > monied interests that support them.

    >>
    >> I know that. Just mentioned it, probably unnecessarily.
    >> Although unless it's simply a monarchy, the person the
    >> LEAST people want always wins

    >
    > Sounds kinda conspiratorial.


    No, it's simple numbers. If 60% of the nation votes, and there
    are two candidates, than whichever one wins is the one most
    people did not want - or at least not enough to bother voting
    for. Add one more party let alone 10 more parties and forget it.
    The biggest idiot wins.

    Did you know that in the history of US presidential elections
    the shorter of the two candidates won only once? (I can't
    remember who - they're all the same anyway.) No one really cares
    what anyone says, and any suggestion of above-average if not
    just basic intelligence - unlike in many European countries - is
    an automatic guarantee of a loss.

    > I'd say that the majority of
    > elections in Uhmurikuh are legit.


    Depending on how cleverly designed and deeply entrenched a
    system is, anything seems legit. But I agree, they used to be.
    I'm not so sure about the last 15 years.

    > The influx of e-voting
    > makes that more questionable though. See
    > www.blackboxvoting.org...


    Oh, e-voting has finished with whatever claims to accuracy and
    honesty any electoral processes anywhere ever had.

    >>(let alone when there's more then two major parties
    >> - in some countries there are dozens, what a travesty),
    >> which is kind of curious about "democracy". But then
    >> again, since they're all the same... THAT'S why I wasn't
    >> gonna talk about any of this stuff anymore.
    >>

    > D00d! I totally t0rrled you & stuff.


    Please speak English ;-]


    --
    "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is
    time to pause and reflect."
    - Mark Twain
    thanatoid, May 8, 2010
    #15
  16. Dan C

    thanatoid Guest

    (§nühw¤£f) wrote in
    news::

    > thanatoid <> clouded the waters of
    > pure thought with:
    >> §nühw¤£f <> wrote in
    >> news:hs3soo$dse$:
    >> > In message <Xns9D71E0FCF2402thanexit@188.40.43.230>,
    >> > thanatoid pondered the following:


    <SNIP>

    >> > I find it odd the great lengths guys on usenet go to
    >> > make it known that they are "straight".

    >>
    >> Do you find "they" do that more on the Usenet than in RL?
    >> I never understood sex, I can never turn my mind off, I
    >> always think "what the hell am I doing here? This is SO
    >> ridiculous.", and some aspects of it are just more
    >> repugnant than others.
    >>

    > RL? WTF is *that*? <sarcasm>
    > I dont hafta worry about getting laid so its not a concern.


    This could mean a variety of things, but good for you in any
    case.

    <SNIP>

    >> > Sounds kinda conspiratorial.

    >>
    >> No, it's simple numbers. If 60% of the nation votes, and
    >> there are two candidates, than whichever one wins is the
    >> one most people did not want - or at least not enough to
    >> bother voting for. Add one more party let alone 10 more
    >> parties and forget it. The biggest idiot wins.
    >>

    > Huh? Your math is fuzzy


    It may be fuzzy since I did not use specific percentages or
    numbers, but it is obviously logically correct.

    > and has some sticky bits.


    Whatever that means.

    > Its a matter of money. THeres a direct correlation between
    > amount spent and likelyhood of getting elected.


    Of course. America is owned and run for and by the rich. That is
    not the case in ALL other countries - it IS the case in most.

    >> Did you know that in the history of US presidential
    >> elections the shorter of the two candidates won only once?
    >> (I can't remember who - they're all the same anyway.) No
    >> one really cares what anyone says, and any suggestion of
    >> above-average if not just basic intelligence - unlike in
    >> many European countries - is an automatic guarantee of a
    >> loss.
    >>

    > Obama was generally considered above average intelligence.
    > FYI


    I am aware, and that is one of ht reasons I was astounded he
    won. But you did say "was". Some people are beginning to
    question it. After all, all US elections are mostly beauty and
    lying contests.

    --
    "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is
    time to pause and reflect."
    - Mark Twain
    thanatoid, May 9, 2010
    #16
  17. Dan C

    NormanM Guest

    On Tue, 04 May 2010 14:05:25 -0600, §nühw¤£f wrote:

    > NormanM wrote:


    >> On Mon, 03 May 2010 20:27:57 -0500, §nühw¤£f wrote:


    >>> More mind control from the likes of the Beckster?


    >> Eh? Glen Beck couldn't control the mind of a hamster.


    > So his ratings are poor and he has no followers?
    > Interesting.


    Is he actually creating a movement, or just getting in front of one which
    already exists?

    >> BTW, Glen Beck and Sean Hannity are both younger than I.


    > Age dos'nt equal wisdom.


    Nor does youth. But my point is that I didn't "turn right" because of the
    likes of Hannity, Beck, and Limbaugh. I was already going that way before
    Hannity and Beck were even born.

    >> Even Rush Limbaugh was a mere sophomore in high school when I was debating fellow students (the
    >> "avante guarde" of the New Left) my senior year of high school. Seems the
    >> New Left has been dismayed by dissent from their "Perfect Solution" for at
    >> least 43 years.


    > Nice War Stories, grumpy gramps.


    You seem to believe (as in religion) that "Left" has always been "there",
    and "Right" was invented by Limbaugh, Beck, and Hannity. You are wrong.

    --
    Norman
    ~Oh Lord, why have you come
    ~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum
    NormanM, May 9, 2010
    #17
  18. Dan C

    NormanM Guest

    On Thu, 6 May 2010 21:35:45 +0000 (UTC), thanatoid wrote:

    > §nühw¤£f <> wrote in
    > news:hrva3k$fm3$:
    >
    > <SNIP>
    >
    > I hate to sound like the complete idiot I have always been in
    > many respects and am completely AFA this issue...
    >
    > I know what the Boston Tea Party was about, more or less, but as
    > much as I have tried, I have been unable to figure out what the
    > current term "teabagger" means. Aside from the fact I dislike
    > labels (even "liberal" and "conservative" are largely
    > meaningless), I can't even figure out which subdivision of which
    > of those two the term applies to. Or is it a new animal?
    >
    > Please help me... Please...


    It is a "New Left" derogatory term for the new Tea Party movement. Which is
    pretty much about the same issue as the original Boston Tea Pary, except for
    the difference between "taxation without representation" (Boston Tea Party),
    and "taxation with representation" (contemporary Tea Party movement).

    --
    Norman
    ~Oh Lord, why have you come
    ~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum
    NormanM, May 9, 2010
    #18
  19. Dan C

    Aardvark Guest

    On Sun, 09 May 2010 08:15:49 -0700, NormanM wrote:

    > It is a "New Left" derogatory term for the new Tea Party movement. Which
    > is pretty much about the same issue as the original Boston Tea Pary,
    > except for the difference between "taxation without representation"
    > (Boston Tea Party), and "taxation with representation" (contemporary Tea
    > Party movement).


    LOL. So it's the same but different?



    --
    Top posting because your cursor happens to be there is like shitting in
    your pants because that's where your asshole happens to be.
    <http://www.dickgaughan.co.uk/usenet/guide/faq08-topp.html>
    Aardvark, May 9, 2010
    #19
  20. Dan C

    thanatoid Guest

    NormanM <> wrote in
    news:1qznma9m3vmoc$:

    > On Thu, 6 May 2010 21:35:45 +0000 (UTC), thanatoid wrote:


    <SNIP>

    >> Please help me... Please...

    >
    > It is a "New Left" derogatory term for the new Tea Party
    > movement. Which is pretty much about the same issue as the
    > original Boston Tea Pary, except for the difference between
    > "taxation without representation" (Boston Tea Party), and
    > "taxation with representation" (contemporary Tea Party
    > movement).


    Thank you.



    --
    "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is
    time to pause and reflect."
    - Mark Twain
    thanatoid, May 9, 2010
    #20
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