Re: Follow on to UK Post Office Broadband (problems)

Discussion in 'UK VOIP' started by Woody, Nov 15, 2008.

  1. Woody

    Woody Guest

    "B. Wright" <> wrote in message
    news:gfn8le$iee$...
    > Just to satisfy any curiousity (if there was any), here's a
    > follow on to how things have gone with the UK PO Broadband (BT,
    > re-sold
    > under the PO moniker).
    >
    > The line has trained from 3-4+Mbps/448K, BUT, the speed is
    > horrendous. I'm seeing typically 100Kbps-400Kbps down and
    > 200Kbps-400Kbps up at best usually. Had a few loss of sync to start
    > but
    > then the line stabilized and speed was still crap. Seemed to get much
    > worse at night so I thought it was congestion in the IP network but
    > also
    > the line was showing CRC/FEC/HEC errors. Spoke to the idiots at level
    > 1
    > support who kept trying to quote line training speed as "performance
    > level", and they wouldn't escalate. I told them to get a clue and
    > I'll
    > be cancelling the line in short order if it's not resolved. That
    > promped them to finally tell me if I left it in the "master socket"
    > for
    > 3 days and still had problems they would escalate. After a week in
    > the
    > master socket I called back, no line drops, but still shit
    > performance.
    > Again, they're idiots and only understand the "trained speed" but not
    > networking concepts like oversubscription and congestion at other
    > points
    > that could cause the problem. I had to threaten the cancellation
    > again
    > and told themI won't be held to a contract when they can't provide
    > service levels I pay for. In the end, they escalated, a couple days
    > later someone with a brain called, understood the situation, saw the
    > errors, agreed something was f*cked. Wanted to send a new router then
    > if that failed move me to a new port on the DSLAM, I'd let him know I
    > tested with another router and had same results. Nonetheless I
    > waited,
    > router never arrived as promised, never got a call back either as
    > promised.
    >
    > Basically, the line is screwed, either the DSLAM port or the
    > pair the put me on is bad. I've actually seen it very briefly do
    > about
    > 1.6Mbps down in the middle of the day. A few other times (only about
    > 3-5am) it's done 3-4Mbps actual throughput. During these times the
    > errors accumulate at a much lower rate, but during the day and
    > especially evening it's hosed. The only other theory I have is they
    > bundled me into a cable that has some other circuit (E1/etc..) that is
    > introducing interference and causing the problems, but, once in a
    > while
    > becomes less active or inactive (the times I see the high speeds). I
    > am
    > 99.999% sure my house wiring is capable of much higher speeds if
    > they'd
    > put me on a decent port or cable pair and that the problem lies on
    > their
    > end.
    >
    > The real issue is, if they idiots don't resolve it, I can't
    > waste more time with them. I can't always use VoIP (which I had
    > intended to) due to the bandwidth and jitter issues when it gets bad.
    > I'd be happy to stay with them if they acted as if they cared, but, it
    > not, I'll switch to TalkTalk and use the regular phone (included
    > calls to international and UK landlines 24/7 so I don't need VoIP).
    > So,
    > are they able to enforce a 12 month contract since they are not
    > providing the service as it was sold to me? I wasn't able to find
    > this
    > out in the first 14 days because, due to some delays, I arrived after
    > the line was already active for those 14 days (but not in use). Does
    > anyone have similar experience breaking a contract early due to the
    > provider not meeting a reasonable service level and not resolving it?
    >
    > Any info appreciated
    >
    >




    Trading Standards is your firend.


    --
    Woody

    harrogate three at ntlworld dot com
     
    Woody, Nov 15, 2008
    #1
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  2. Woody

    PeterW Guest

    "Woody" <> wrote in
    news:MgGTk.45072$%2:

    > "B. Wright" <> wrote in message
    > news:gfn8le$iee$...
    >> Just to satisfy any curiousity (if there was any), here's a
    >> follow on to how things have gone with the UK PO Broadband (BT,
    >> re-sold
    >> under the PO moniker).
    >>
    >> The line has trained from 3-4+Mbps/448K, BUT, the speed is
    >> horrendous. I'm seeing typically 100Kbps-400Kbps down and
    >> 200Kbps-400Kbps up at best usually. Had a few loss of sync to start
    >> but
    >> then the line stabilized and speed was still crap. Seemed to get much
    >> worse at night so I thought it was congestion in the IP network but
    >> also
    >> the line was showing CRC/FEC/HEC errors. Spoke to the idiots at level
    >> 1
    >> support who kept trying to quote line training speed as "performance
    >> level", and they wouldn't escalate. I told them to get a clue and
    >> I'll
    >> be cancelling the line in short order if it's not resolved. That
    >> promped them to finally tell me if I left it in the "master socket"
    >> for
    >> 3 days and still had problems they would escalate. After a week in
    >> the
    >> master socket I called back, no line drops, but still shit
    >> performance.
    >> Again, they're idiots and only understand the "trained speed" but not
    >> networking concepts like oversubscription and congestion at other
    >> points
    >> that could cause the problem. I had to threaten the cancellation
    >> again
    >> and told themI won't be held to a contract when they can't provide
    >> service levels I pay for. In the end, they escalated, a couple days
    >> later someone with a brain called, understood the situation, saw the
    >> errors, agreed something was f*cked. Wanted to send a new router then
    >> if that failed move me to a new port on the DSLAM, I'd let him know I
    >> tested with another router and had same results. Nonetheless I
    >> waited,
    >> router never arrived as promised, never got a call back either as
    >> promised.
    >>
    >> Basically, the line is screwed, either the DSLAM port or the
    >> pair the put me on is bad. I've actually seen it very briefly do
    >> about
    >> 1.6Mbps down in the middle of the day. A few other times (only about
    >> 3-5am) it's done 3-4Mbps actual throughput. During these times the
    >> errors accumulate at a much lower rate, but during the day and
    >> especially evening it's hosed. The only other theory I have is they
    >> bundled me into a cable that has some other circuit (E1/etc..) that is
    >> introducing interference and causing the problems, but, once in a
    >> while
    >> becomes less active or inactive (the times I see the high speeds). I
    >> am
    >> 99.999% sure my house wiring is capable of much higher speeds if
    >> they'd
    >> put me on a decent port or cable pair and that the problem lies on
    >> their
    >> end.
    >>
    >> The real issue is, if they idiots don't resolve it, I can't
    >> waste more time with them. I can't always use VoIP (which I had
    >> intended to) due to the bandwidth and jitter issues when it gets bad.
    >> I'd be happy to stay with them if they acted as if they cared, but, it
    >> not, I'll switch to TalkTalk and use the regular phone (included
    >> calls to international and UK landlines 24/7 so I don't need VoIP).
    >> So,
    >> are they able to enforce a 12 month contract since they are not
    >> providing the service as it was sold to me? I wasn't able to find
    >> this
    >> out in the first 14 days because, due to some delays, I arrived after
    >> the line was already active for those 14 days (but not in use). Does
    >> anyone have similar experience breaking a contract early due to the
    >> provider not meeting a reasonable service level and not resolving it?
    >>
    >> Any info appreciated
    >>
    >>

    >
    >
    >
    > Trading Standards is your firend.
    >
    >


    Or switch to a decent provider like ADSL24.

    Peter
     
    PeterW, Nov 17, 2008
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. In article <gfs9cp$vvg$>,
    B. Wright <> wrote:
    >PeterW <24.co.uk> wrote:
    >> "Woody" <> wrote in
    >> news:MgGTk.45072$%2:
    >>
    >>> "B. Wright" <> wrote in message
    >>> news:gfn8le$iee$...
    >>>>
    >>>> The real issue is, if they idiots don't resolve it, I can't
    >>>> waste more time with them. I can't always use VoIP (which I had
    >>>> intended to) due to the bandwidth and jitter issues when it gets bad.
    >>>> I'd be happy to stay with them if they acted as if they cared, but, it
    >>>> not, I'll switch to TalkTalk and use the regular phone (included
    >>>> calls to international and UK landlines 24/7 so I don't need VoIP).
    >>>> So,
    >>>> are they able to enforce a 12 month contract since they are not
    >>>> providing the service as it was sold to me? I wasn't able to find
    >>>> this
    >>>> out in the first 14 days because, due to some delays, I arrived after
    >>>> the line was already active for those 14 days (but not in use). Does
    >>>> anyone have similar experience breaking a contract early due to the
    >>>> provider not meeting a reasonable service level and not resolving it?
    >>>>
    >>>> Any info appreciated
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>> Trading Standards is your firend.
    >>>
    >>>

    >>
    >> Or switch to a decent provider like ADSL24.
    >>
    >> Peter

    >
    > Peter, that's a pretty useless response considering what I just
    >wrote. That's what I'm hoping to do if they don't get this resolved,
    >but, I won't pay the remainder of a 12 month contract for nothing. I'm
    >asking about how to successfully go about nullifying that contract so I
    >CAN switch.
    >
    > Also, re: other providers. All but BT and PO (BT, re-badged)
    >were giving me ridiculous lead times from 1-2 months to over a year! I
    >couldn't wait that long. TalkTalk tried to give me some line of crap
    >about getting the landline through PO first since they don't do a
    >contract (for the landline, but they do on the broadband portion), then
    >immediately switching it to them, however it takes them 3+ weeks to
    >switch the landline due to some regulatory waiting period for them to
    >take over the line from another provider. God knows how long to fire
    >up the broadband after that. All said and done the PO broadband seems
    >like it could be ok and not that bad of a deal if they can pull their
    >heads out oand switch me to a different pair to the CO and/or DSLAM
    >port/line card.


    If your exchange is ADSL enabled, then you have a choice of over 100 ISPs
    who can help you - all through the BT Wholesale network. The PO is just
    one of those 100+ ISPs. Your data goes throug the BTW network then into
    the ISPs own network and it's there where problems usually start. On
    the face of it, if your connection is stable, but you're not seeing
    the data rate then the most likely place to look is inside your ISPs
    own netwok - I don't know if the PO runs their own network or resells
    someone elses though.

    Incidentally, it's an "exchange" in this country. "CO" is american and
    you might find that people here don't know what you mean by it.


    > I highly doubt "ADSL24" is going to change things like "landline
    >required" and some silly 12-18 month contract, along with probably a
    >capped usage (PO has no cap, BTW), and if I had to guess without looking
    >a "connection fee" up front as many charge.


    You always need a BT landline. (unless you have cable or live in Hull)
    This is almost always the case. Once you have that, you have the choice
    of over 100 ISPs via the BT Wholesale network, or in some cases other ISPs
    who have "local loop unbundled" the exchange. In these cases the ISPs can
    take over line rental too, so you pay the ISP rather than BT. Personally,
    I do not recommend this.

    But you always need a BT landline to start with, even if going with one
    of the LLU operators, you still need a BT landline to start with.

    Some ISPs can re-sell BT telephone products and install the copper line
    for you. I've done this via Entanet (entacall in the past) It's still
    a BT line at the end of the day.

    ADSL24 is a reseller of Entanet who have bought into the BT Wholesale
    network. I'm also a reseller of Entanet and my record or getting a
    client to go from no copper to working ADSL is: 7 days for the copper
    and 48 hours for the ADSL on top on that. (Yes, they paid a premium
    to accellerate the ADSL, and I tried to do a simultanous provision,
    but that didn't work)

    All installs I've done have complete in 14 days or less. Migrations
    usually in 7 days or less. You can migrate at any time, but you might
    still be stung for the rest of the contract.

    But you need the BT line first.

    > I'd probably get stuck on
    >the same shitty pair and DSLAM port as I am now unless they're one of
    >the LLU providers with their own equipment in the CO and that doesn't
    >solve the problem if I'm on a bad pair, now does it?


    How do you know it's the DSLAM that's the problem? Have you reprogrammed
    your router to use the BT test account and their speed-test facilities? I
    suspect that if you do that, you might find that the problem lies with
    the ISP and not the BT network - although I did have such a problem when
    BT first enabled our exchange - they called it a Virtual Path issue -
    something to do with the bandwidth provision out of the exchange - I
    would like to think these issues are well behind us now though as this
    was a few years back.

    > The only reason
    >TalkTalk is more attractive than any others to me is the Global Anytime
    >inclusive calls, if I have that, I can give less of a shit of my DSL
    >connection can't support VoIP since I won't need it. VoIP is
    >interesting, but, honestly I'd rather have a landline with cheap or
    >inclusive calls since VoIP has too many variables that can go wrong.


    Go to the Think Broadband site for reviews of talktalk,
    etc. http://www.thinkbroadband.com/

    Gordon
     
    Gordon Henderson, Nov 17, 2008
    #3
  4. Woody

    alexd Guest

    B. Wright wrote:

    > Peter, that's a pretty useless response considering what I just
    > wrote. That's what I'm hoping to do if they don't get this resolved,
    > but, I won't pay the remainder of a 12 month contract for nothing. I'm
    > asking about how to successfully go about nullifying that contract so I
    > CAN switch.


    The PO can't withold a MAC because of payment dispute. Ofcom's rules.

    > Also, re: other providers. All but BT and PO (BT, re-badged)
    > were giving me ridiculous lead times from 1-2 months to over a year!


    What did you ask them for that would take a year to provide?

    > All said and done the PO broadband seems
    > like it could be ok and not that bad of a deal if they can pull their
    > heads out oand switch me to a different pair to the CO and/or DSLAM
    > port/line card.


    I would ignore CRC/FEC/HEC errors. I can't remember the last time I saw a
    router [other than a freshly rebooted one] that reported nothing for those
    stats. Do a BT speed test using the bt_test_user@startup_domain username,
    as per this:

    http://cablehell.co.uk/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t96840.html

    and report the output back here, or rather to uk.telecom.broadband where
    you'll get some more useful help.

    > I highly doubt "ADSL24" is going to change things like "landline
    > required" and some silly 12-18 month contract, along with probably a
    > capped usage (PO has no cap, BTW),


    If they're a BT reseller then I very much doubt they have no cap [unless
    they have overage charges, of course].

    --
    <http://ale.cx/> (AIM:troffasky) ()
    20:00:32 up 3 days, 22:54, 1 user, load average: 0.07, 0.05, 0.00
    They call me titless because I have no tits
     
    alexd, Nov 17, 2008
    #4
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