Re: Etymology of "Sinister

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by tony cooper, Jan 23, 2009.

  1. tony cooper

    tony cooper Guest

    On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 07:06:26 -0600, "HEMI - Powered"
    <> wrote:

    >So, you can imagine my surprise when I saw that President Obama not
    >only signs things like Executive Orders with his left hand, but
    >even uses the over-the-top writing style that traces it's origins
    >to the pen-and-ink days where penmanship students needed to keep
    >their hand from smearing the ink as then moved across the paper.
    >
    >Draw your own conclusions from this, of course. And, Happy TGIF!


    Wrong again, Jerry. The over-the-top writing position of the
    left-hander caused *more* smearing, not less. That's the natural way
    we left-handers start writing. I know, because I'm left-handed, I
    started writing that way, and I learned to write with a stick pen at a
    school desks with built-in inkwells.

    The over-the-top style drags the hand or the cuff or the arm over the
    fresh, wet ink of the previous lines. Not so much the line being
    written, but the lines above it.

    The other problem of the over-the-top style is that the pen nibs
    punctured and tore the paper and caused ink to splatter because the
    nibs were held too vertical.

    I don't write that way anymore. I print everything except my
    signature, and that's illegible.

    What is odd about Obama is that he wears his wrist-watch on his left
    hand. Most left-handers wear their wrist-watch on their right hand.

    --
    Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
     
    tony cooper, Jan 23, 2009
    #1
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  2. tony cooper

    tony cooper Guest

    On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 07:52:44 -0800, C J Campbell
    <> wrote:

    >On 2009-01-23 06:13:10 -0800, tony cooper <> said:
    >
    >> On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 07:06:26 -0600, "HEMI - Powered"
    >> <> wrote:
    >>
    >>> So, you can imagine my surprise when I saw that President Obama not
    >>> only signs things like Executive Orders with his left hand, but
    >>> even uses the over-the-top writing style that traces it's origins
    >>> to the pen-and-ink days where penmanship students needed to keep
    >>> their hand from smearing the ink as then moved across the paper.
    >>>
    >>> Draw your own conclusions from this, of course. And, Happy TGIF!

    >>
    >> Wrong again, Jerry. The over-the-top writing position of the
    >> left-hander caused *more* smearing, not less. That's the natural way
    >> we left-handers start writing. I know, because I'm left-handed, I
    >> started writing that way, and I learned to write with a stick pen at a
    >> school desks with built-in inkwells.
    >>
    >> The over-the-top style drags the hand or the cuff or the arm over the
    >> fresh, wet ink of the previous lines. Not so much the line being
    >> written, but the lines above it.
    >>
    >> The other problem of the over-the-top style is that the pen nibs
    >> punctured and tore the paper and caused ink to splatter because the
    >> nibs were held too vertical.
    >>
    >> I don't write that way anymore. I print everything except my
    >> signature, and that's illegible.
    >>
    >> What is odd about Obama is that he wears his wrist-watch on his left
    >> hand. Most left-handers wear their wrist-watch on their right hand.

    >
    >I wear my wristwatch on my left wrist, not my hand. :) So do most
    >other southpaws I know. It is too hard to change the time and date and
    >work the stopwatch buttons if the watch is on the right wrist.


    That's different from my experience. It's almost a parlor trick to be
    able to recognize the left-hander by noticing the wrist-watch on the
    right wrist. Also, I can't imagine changing the date or the time
    without taking the wrist-watch off. My regular watch - a Rolex -
    doesn't have stopwatch buttons, but the watch I wear when scuba diving
    does and I wear it on my right wrist.

    Pilots may be different. Some of them wear their watch with the dial
    on the underside of the wrist so they can see the face without turning
    the wrist. My flight instructor did so.


    >Military men who used swords and maces hated left-handed people. Boxers
    >still do.


    Castles were designed for the right-handed. The stairs curved to
    enable the right-handed defender to advance sword-first.

    >The reason the military still encourages people to shoot right handed
    >is because of problems with shells being ejected from the breech.


    If you've served in the military, and been on the rifle range, you'll
    know that "encouraged" is not a strong enough word. Range officers
    and non-coms would cuss out their grandmothers for the slightest
    thing. I think that a full and complete knowledge of all possible
    forms of profanity and insults is a requirement for that job.

    Of course, that's the "old" Army.

    --
    Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
     
    tony cooper, Jan 23, 2009
    #2
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  3. tony cooper

    Chris H Guest

    In message <2009012307524416807-christophercampbell@hotmailcom>, C J
    Campbell <> writes
    >The reason the military still encourages people to shoot right handed
    >is because of problems with shells being ejected from the breech.


    Modern militaries train soldiers to be both left and right handed with a
    rifle. Especially for urban warfare.

    --
    \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
    \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
    \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
     
    Chris H, Jan 23, 2009
    #3
  4. Savageduck wrote:
    > On 2009-01-24 04:20:52 -0800, "HEMI - Powered" <> said:


    >>>

    >> Do you have an opinion as to why a) so many people, over 1/10 the
    >> population, is still left-handed

    >
    > No.
    >
    >> and b) why there are not modern
    >> methods being developed to allow more people to be the overwhelming
    >> norm, right-handed? If nothing else, the savings to society would
    >> be overwhelming if left and right-handed devices were no longer
    >> required.

    >
    > No sensible opinion.

    << Snipped bits out >>

    The savings would be miniscule, maybe a few hundred million dollars.
    Maybe even a half billion! Small change.
    --
    John McWilliams
     
    John McWilliams, Jan 24, 2009
    #4
  5. tony cooper

    tony cooper Guest

    On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 06:20:52 -0600, "HEMI - Powered"
    <> wrote:

    >Do you have an opinion as to why a) so many people, over 1/10 the
    >population, is still left-handed and b) why there are not modern
    >methods being developed to allow more people to be the overwhelming
    >norm, right-handed? If nothing else, the savings to society would
    >be overwhelming if left and right-handed devices were no longer
    >required.


    What are the costs to society of left-handers?

    The manufacturing of devices for left-handers is a benefit to society.
    A company that makes or distributes left-handed devices provides
    employment and results in taxes paid to the government. Society does
    not absorb any of the costs of left-handedness, but members of the
    society can exploit it as a niche market for the entrepreneurial. The
    left-handers pay their own way by buying the products.

    Although, as a left-hander, I require very few things that accommodate
    my left-handedness. Golf clubs are the largest expenditure in this
    area, but I don't pay more for left-handed clubs than I would for
    right-handed clubs.

    I would be quite pleased to receive government bail-out funds for
    being left-handed, but - sadly - none have been proposed. The funds
    seem to be earmarked for businesses that give million dollar bonuses
    to executives who have run their business into the ground by making
    bad decisions.



    --
    Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
     
    tony cooper, Jan 24, 2009
    #5
  6. tony cooper

    Pat Guest

    On Jan 23, 11:25 am, tony cooper <> wrote:
    > On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 07:52:44 -0800, C J Campbell
    >
    >
    >
    > <> wrote:
    > >On 2009-01-23 06:13:10 -0800, tony cooper <> said:

    >
    > >> On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 07:06:26 -0600, "HEMI - Powered"
    > >> <> wrote:

    >
    > >>> So, you can imagine my surprise when I saw that President Obama not
    > >>> only signs things like Executive Orders with his left hand, but
    > >>> even uses the over-the-top writing style that traces it's origins
    > >>> to the pen-and-ink days where penmanship students needed to keep
    > >>> their hand from smearing the ink as then moved across the paper.

    >
    > >>> Draw your own conclusions from this, of course. And, Happy TGIF!

    >
    > >> Wrong again, Jerry.  The over-the-top writing position of the
    > >> left-hander caused *more* smearing, not less.  That's the natural way
    > >> we left-handers start writing.  I know, because I'm left-handed, I
    > >> started writing that way, and I learned to write with a stick pen at a
    > >> school desks with built-in inkwells.

    >
    > >> The over-the-top style drags the hand or the cuff or the arm over the
    > >> fresh, wet ink of the previous lines.  Not so much the line being
    > >> written, but the lines above it.

    >
    > >> The other problem of the over-the-top style is that the pen nibs
    > >> punctured and tore the paper and caused ink to splatter because the
    > >> nibs were held too vertical.

    >
    > >> I don't write that way anymore.  I print everything except my
    > >> signature, and that's illegible.

    >
    > >> What is odd about Obama is that he wears his wrist-watch on his left
    > >> hand.  Most left-handers wear their wrist-watch on their right hand.

    >
    > >I wear my wristwatch on my left wrist, not my hand. :) So do most
    > >other southpaws I know. It is too hard to change the time and date and
    > >work the stopwatch buttons if the watch is on the right wrist.

    >
    > That's different from my experience.  It's almost a parlor trick to be
    > able to recognize the left-hander by noticing the wrist-watch on the
    > right wrist.  Also, I can't imagine changing the date or the time
    > without taking the wrist-watch off.  My regular watch - a Rolex -
    > doesn't have stopwatch buttons, but the watch I wear when scuba diving
    > does and I wear it on my right wrist.  
    >
    > Pilots may be different.  Some of them wear their watch with the dial
    > on the underside of the wrist so they can see the face without turning
    > the wrist.  My flight instructor did so.
    >
    > >Military men who used swords and maces hated left-handed people. Boxers
    > >still do.

    >
    > Castles were designed for the right-handed.  The stairs curved to
    > enable the right-handed defender to advance sword-first.  
    >
    > >The reason the military still encourages people to shoot right handed
    > >is because of problems with shells being ejected from the breech.

    >
    > If you've served in the military, and been on the rifle range, you'll
    > know that "encouraged" is not a strong enough word.  Range officers
    > and non-coms would cuss out their grandmothers for the slightest
    > thing.  I think that a full and complete knowledge of all possible
    > forms of profanity and insults is a requirement for that job.
    >
    > Of course, that's the  "old" Army.  
    >
    > --
    > Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida


    I don't think the swoop-around writing style of "most" lefties has
    anything to do with fountain pens or ink wells. They haven't been
    around since Christ was a child. It has more to do with brain wiring
    and pen comfort. I have never curled my hand around the paper and
    when I see other lefties do it I think "wow that looks awkward".

    Ball point pens -- particularly cheap ones and one with edges (such as
    the octagon ones) are particularly painful for lefties to use. It
    also probably has something to do with righties teaching lefties to
    write. When lefties write, you are pushing against the ball, not
    pulling away from it. It gives you more friction and it causes
    blochiness. It's just the mechanics of the pen. I switched to liquid
    ink (or gel) as soon as I used the first one I came across. I don't
    even bother to steal pens from cashiers because if I come across one
    at home, I just throw it out anyway.

    As for watches, it's no parlor game to spot lefties by what side they
    wear their watches on and it's not weird the Obama wears a watch on
    his left wrist. The astonishing thing is that he wears a watch at
    all. They are going the way of buggy whips now that everyone carries
    a cell phone. Don't you guys have phones? Get with the system. The
    only person I know who wears a watch is a nurse who needs it for
    taking pulses and such. Otherwise, no one wears one. Personally, I
    tried wearing one in high school and couldn't get comfy with it on
    either wrist so I gave up and haven't worn a watch since.

    As for cameras, they are only right-handed because you think they
    are. You have been conditioned to think that was and have the "poor
    old me" syndrome. I PREFER the current set-up and consider it to be
    left-handed. I much prefer to hold the weight of the camera with my
    stronger arm and I much prefer to make the minute adjustments
    necessary to zoom (and focus, back in the day) with my more dexterous
    hand. I don't need my "good hand" to push the shutter -- heck, you
    could do that with your nose. If you made me use my right hand for
    holding the camera while zooming (and focusing) and tracking an
    object, it would severely hurt my photographic abilities.

    There are many more things I would like changed than cameras (or
    watches). Start with phones.

    Here's a final thought to leave you with. Don't you think lefties in
    England complain that cars are right-handed just like lefties here do?
     
    Pat, Jan 24, 2009
    #6
  7. Pat wrote:

    > There are many more things I would like changed than cameras (or
    > watches). Start with phones.


    What would you change?
    >
    > Here's a final thought to leave you with. Don't you think lefties in
    > England complain that cars are right-handed just like lefties here do?


    No. Right hand drive cars: you shift with your left. This righty don'
    like it none.

    --
    John McWilliams
     
    John McWilliams, Jan 24, 2009
    #7
  8. tony cooper

    J. Clarke Guest

    John McWilliams wrote:
    > Savageduck wrote:
    >> On 2009-01-24 04:20:52 -0800, "HEMI - Powered"
    >> <>
    >> said:

    >
    >>>>
    >>> Do you have an opinion as to why a) so many people, over 1/10 the
    >>> population, is still left-handed

    >>
    >> No.
    >>
    >>> and b) why there are not modern
    >>> methods being developed to allow more people to be the
    >>> overwhelming
    >>> norm, right-handed? If nothing else, the savings to society would
    >>> be overwhelming if left and right-handed devices were no longer
    >>> required.

    >>
    >> No sensible opinion.

    > << Snipped bits out >>
    >
    > The savings would be miniscule, maybe a few hundred million dollars.
    > Maybe even a half billion! Small change.


    Been tried, doesn't work all that well. Schools used to try to force
    lefties to write righty. I think most of 'em became doctors.

    --
    --
    --John
    to email, dial "usenet" and validate
    (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
     
    J. Clarke, Jan 24, 2009
    #8
  9. tony cooper

    tony cooper Guest

    On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 08:38:02 -0800 (PST), Pat
    <> wrote:

    >On Jan 23, 11:25 am, tony cooper <> wrote:
    >> On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 07:52:44 -0800, C J Campbell
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> <> wrote:
    >> >On 2009-01-23 06:13:10 -0800, tony cooper <> said:

    >>
    >> >> On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 07:06:26 -0600, "HEMI - Powered"
    >> >> <> wrote:

    >>
    >> >>> So, you can imagine my surprise when I saw that President Obama not
    >> >>> only signs things like Executive Orders with his left hand, but
    >> >>> even uses the over-the-top writing style that traces it's origins
    >> >>> to the pen-and-ink days where penmanship students needed to keep
    >> >>> their hand from smearing the ink as then moved across the paper.

    >>
    >> >>> Draw your own conclusions from this, of course. And, Happy TGIF!

    >>
    >> >> Wrong again, Jerry.  The over-the-top writing position of the
    >> >> left-hander caused *more* smearing, not less.  That's the natural way
    >> >> we left-handers start writing.  I know, because I'm left-handed, I
    >> >> started writing that way, and I learned to write with a stick pen at a
    >> >> school desks with built-in inkwells.

    >>
    >> >> The over-the-top style drags the hand or the cuff or the arm over the
    >> >> fresh, wet ink of the previous lines.  Not so much the line being
    >> >> written, but the lines above it.

    >>
    >> >> The other problem of the over-the-top style is that the pen nibs
    >> >> punctured and tore the paper and caused ink to splatter because the
    >> >> nibs were held too vertical.

    >>
    >> >> I don't write that way anymore.  I print everything except my
    >> >> signature, and that's illegible.

    >>
    >> >> What is odd about Obama is that he wears his wrist-watch on his left
    >> >> hand.  Most left-handers wear their wrist-watch on their right hand.

    >>
    >> >I wear my wristwatch on my left wrist, not my hand. :) So do most
    >> >other southpaws I know. It is too hard to change the time and date and
    >> >work the stopwatch buttons if the watch is on the right wrist.

    >>
    >> That's different from my experience.  It's almost a parlor trick to be
    >> able to recognize the left-hander by noticing the wrist-watch on the
    >> right wrist.  Also, I can't imagine changing the date or the time
    >> without taking the wrist-watch off.  My regular watch - a Rolex -
    >> doesn't have stopwatch buttons, but the watch I wear when scuba diving
    >> does and I wear it on my right wrist.  
    >>

    >I don't think the swoop-around writing style of "most" lefties has
    >anything to do with fountain pens or ink wells.


    It's the other way around. The stick pen and the fountain pen are
    awkward for the leftie because of the way the hand is held. Pen nibs
    are not designed to be used near-vertical or from above. While people
    were lefties before pens were devised, there's no doubt to the leftie
    that pre-ballpoint pens were a problem for them.

    >As for watches, it's no parlor game to spot lefties by what side they
    >wear their watches on


    Yet most lefties do wear their watch on the right wrist. A "parlor
    trick" is different from a "parlor game". A "parlor trick" is some
    little thing that some people can do (in this case, notice), and a
    parlor game is an organized event for several people.

    >and it's not weird the Obama wears a watch on
    >his left wrist.


    Who said it was?

    >The astonishing thing is that he wears a watch at
    >all. They are going the way of buggy whips now that everyone carries
    >a cell phone. Don't you guys have phones? Get with the system. The
    >only person I know who wears a watch is a nurse who needs it for
    >taking pulses and such. Otherwise, no one wears one.


    I love these broad-brush statements that have absolutely no basis in
    fact but are made because the individual doesn't do whatever it is.

    Watches are worn partly to tell time and partly as jewelry. Evidently,
    I'm not as attached to my phone as you are. I carry it when away from
    the house, but not all the time. When I do carry it, it's tucked in a
    pocket and not as accessible as my watch.

    Watches also have features not usually found on mobile phones:
    stop-watch, lap time, elapsed time, etc.
    >
    >As for cameras, they are only right-handed because you think they
    >are.


    You are replying to my message, and I made no such statement.

    > You have been conditioned to think that was and have the "poor
    >old me" syndrome. I PREFER the current set-up and consider it to be
    >left-handed. I much prefer to hold the weight of the camera with my
    >stronger arm


    I have more strength in my left arm than my right, but I hold my
    camera with my right arm without any effort.

    >and I much prefer to make the minute adjustments
    >necessary to zoom (and focus, back in the day) with my more dexterous
    >hand. I don't need my "good hand" to push the shutter -- heck, you
    >could do that with your nose. If you made me use my right hand for
    >holding the camera while zooming (and focusing) and tracking an
    >object, it would severely hurt my photographic abilities.


    I hold the camera with my right hand, but zoom with my left. I can't
    imagine holding and zooming with the same hand...left or right with a
    dslr. I zoom with my right thumb on my P&S camera, though.

    >There are many more things I would like changed than cameras (or
    >watches). Start with phones.


    Phones are left- or right-handed?

    >Here's a final thought to leave you with. Don't you think lefties in
    >England complain that cars are right-handed just like lefties here do?


    I would hope not. They have the advantage of having the center
    console cup holder on their left.

    I have few complaints stemming from my left-handedness. Waiters
    always put my drink on the right and I have to move it to the left.
    Then they move it back when they refill. I can live with that,
    though.

    Those credit card things where you have to sign your name on a little
    screen are always positioned for the right-hander. Sometimes they are
    immovable. Again, though, I manage.

    --
    Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
     
    tony cooper, Jan 24, 2009
    #9
  10. On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 07:06:09 -0800, Savageduck wrote:

    > On 2009-01-24 00:59:10 -0800, Ron Hunter <> said:
    >
    >> tony cooper wrote:
    >>> On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 07:06:26 -0600, "HEMI - Powered"
    >>> <> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> So, you can imagine my surprise when I saw that President Obama not
    >>>> only signs things like Executive Orders with his left hand, but even
    >>>> uses the over-the-top writing style that traces it's origins to the
    >>>> pen-and-ink days where penmanship students needed to keep their hand
    >>>> from smearing the ink as then moved across the paper.
    >>>>
    >>>> Draw your own conclusions from this, of course. And, Happy TGIF!
    >>>
    >>> Wrong again, Jerry. The over-the-top writing position of the
    >>> left-hander caused *more* smearing, not less. That's the natural way
    >>> we left-handers start writing. I know, because I'm left-handed, I
    >>> started writing that way, and I learned to write with a stick pen at a
    >>> school desks with built-in inkwells.
    >>>
    >>> The over-the-top style drags the hand or the cuff or the arm over the
    >>> fresh, wet ink of the previous lines. Not so much the line being
    >>> written, but the lines above it.
    >>> The other problem of the over-the-top style is that the pen nibs
    >>> punctured and tore the paper and caused ink to splatter because the
    >>> nibs were held too vertical.
    >>> I don't write that way anymore. I print everything except my
    >>> signature, and that's illegible.
    >>> What is odd about Obama is that he wears his wrist-watch on his left
    >>> hand. Most left-handers wear their wrist-watch on their right hand.
    >>>

    >> Wonder which way his belt goes through the belt-loops....

    >
    > The real problem is the tailoring required to create a "left-hand" trouser fly.


    Hmmmmmm.

    I think I see a great opportunity for a Golden Fleece Award.

    A Government-sponsored double-blind study to see if male left-handers
    favor -- as the euphemism goes -- 'dressing left or right', and then
    comparing that to righties.

    What a boon to human knowledge that would be!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Fleece_Award

    http://docblood.spaces.live.com/Blog/cns!D787066A3CBDDB44!7673.entry

    --
    "I have heard that "Commentary" and "Dissent" had merged and formed "Dysentery."

    -- A.R. duChat
     
    Gaston Ryan Coake, Jan 24, 2009
    #10
  11. tony cooper

    tony cooper Guest

    On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 11:36:43 -0700, wrote:

    >On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 08:38:02 -0800 (PST), Pat <> wrote:
    >
    >>CLIPPED

    >
    >>> >> Wrong again, Jerry.  The over-the-top writing position of the
    >>> >> left-hander caused *more* smearing, not less.  That's the natural way
    >>> >> we left-handers start writing.  I know, because I'm left-handed, I
    >>> >> started writing that way, and I learned to write with a stick pen at a
    >>> >> school desks with built-in inkwells.
    >>>
    >>> >> The over-the-top style drags the hand or the cuff or the arm over the
    >>> >> fresh, wet ink of the previous lines.  Not so much the line being
    >>> >> written, but the lines above it.
    >>>
    >>> >> The other problem of the over-the-top style is that the pen nibs
    >>> >> punctured and tore the paper and caused ink to splatter because the
    >>> >> nibs were held too vertical.

    >
    >>CLIPPPED

    >
    >On my first day of school (in 1944) the teacher announced that I was to learn to do everything right
    >handed. The next day my 90 lb. Grandmother came to school with me. I don't know what was said but
    >the teacher never brought up the subject again. In those days schools still tried to teach
    >penmanship with nib pens and ink wells. Fortunately there was a left handed teacher in my school
    >who had solved the problem of how to use a pen.
    >
    >But back to the subject at hand (so to speak). I have noticed that there are basically 3 kinds of
    >lefthanded penmanship. *Upsidedown* (like President Obama) and *Broken wrist* (both taught by
    >right handed people), and then there are those of us who were taught by a lefty who had given some
    >thought to the subject. Just *rotate the paper* clockwise 90 degrees and write top to bottom. The
    >pen is at the same angle to the paper and is moved the same way as it is for a righty - our hand
    >does not drag through the ink - and we can do calligraphy with no problem.


    I rarely - other than the scrawl that is my signature - write in
    cursive. When I do, my hand's position is in the Nun Defense mode.
    That is, with no more hand or wrist exposed than possible and the arm
    held tightly against the body. This style was developed while under
    the watchful eye of Sister Maria and her ever-present 12" ruler with
    the brass insert. Nuns have always thought that left-handers were the
    agents of the devil, more evil than Masons, and doomed to eternal
    damnation unless routinely whacked with said ruler. I think I still
    have the scars.

    I went to school when nuns wore the full habit, and was absolutely
    convinced that they did not walk like mortals. They floated silently
    across the floor to appear without warning in front of the miscreant
    whilst drawing the brass-edged ruler from out of the folds of the
    habit. I was also convinced that nuns spent their evenings, when not
    in prayer, squeezing walnuts with a shell-cracking force in order to
    develop the hand muscles later used for the arm-numbing shoulder
    pinch.


    --
    Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
     
    tony cooper, Jan 24, 2009
    #11
  12. tony cooper

    Robert Coe Guest

    On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 18:03:52 -0800, C J Campbell wrote:
    : Haha. I was Air Force, and an officer at that. We were never allowed
    : near a rifle. I think if I had picked up an M-16 that some kindly NCO
    : would have immediately thrown me to the ground, yelling "Don't EVER
    : touch that, sir!" Or something like that.
    :
    : No, we had .38 specials and we all had to qualify both left and right
    : handed with them. Not even a Colt .45. Sheesh.

    <chuckle!> That reminds me of our recently departed "President", Little Boy
    Bush. During one of his campaigns, the Alabama Air National Guard was savaged
    for looking the other way when he failed to show up for a year of duty that
    apparently got him out of going to Vietnam. I put myself in the place of the
    commander of the Alabama ANG: Do I really want that moron flying around in a
    $10 million airplane over populated areas on my watch? The question answers
    itself. :^)

    Bob
     
    Robert Coe, Jan 25, 2009
    #12
  13. tony cooper

    Robert Coe Guest

    On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 08:38:02 -0800 (PST), Pat <>
    wrote:
    : I don't think the swoop-around writing style of "most" lefties has
    : anything to do with fountain pens or ink wells. They haven't been
    : around since Christ was a child. It has more to do with brain wiring
    : and pen comfort. I have never curled my hand around the paper and
    : when I see other lefties do it I think "wow that looks awkward".

    So would I, I think. My father was left-handed, and so was one of my high
    school classmates with whom I worked at a summer job in college. Both were
    trained cartographic draftsmen with excellent penmanship, both in printing and
    in cursive writing, and both eschewed the over-the-top style. I don't think my
    left-handed granddaughter writes that way either, although I have to confess
    I'm not certain of that.

    : Ball point pens -- particularly cheap ones and one with edges (such as
    : the octagon ones) are particularly painful for lefties to use. It
    : also probably has something to do with righties teaching lefties to
    : write. When lefties write, you are pushing against the ball, not
    : pulling away from it. It gives you more friction and it causes
    : blochiness. It's just the mechanics of the pen. I switched to liquid
    : ink (or gel) as soon as I used the first one I came across. I don't
    : even bother to steal pens from cashiers because if I come across one
    : at home, I just throw it out anyway.

    Who knew there was a handedness to ballpoint pens? Live a lot, learn a little,
    I guess.

    : As for watches, it's no parlor game to spot lefties by what side they
    : wear their watches on and it's not weird the Obama wears a watch on
    : his left wrist. The astonishing thing is that he wears a watch at
    : all. They are going the way of buggy whips now that everyone carries
    : a cell phone. Don't you guys have phones? Get with the system. The
    : only person I know who wears a watch is a nurse who needs it for
    : taking pulses and such. Otherwise, no one wears one. Personally, I
    : tried wearing one in high school and couldn't get comfy with it on
    : either wrist so I gave up and haven't worn a watch since.

    Both my wife and I still wear wristwatches, and I thought everybody did. And
    while I again have to admit to a lack of observation of what others do, your
    assertion is counterintuitive. Wristwatches were invented because pocket
    watches were considered unwieldy, and a cell phone is a particularly large and
    unwieldy pocket watch. I relied on my cell phone only once, when my wristwatch
    battery died and I was too lazy to get it replaced for several weeks.

    : As for cameras, they are only right-handed because you think they
    : are. You have been conditioned to think that was and have the "poor
    : old me" syndrome. I PREFER the current set-up and consider it to be
    : left-handed. I much prefer to hold the weight of the camera with my
    : stronger arm and I much prefer to make the minute adjustments
    : necessary to zoom (and focus, back in the day) with my more dexterous
    : hand. I don't need my "good hand" to push the shutter -- heck, you
    : could do that with your nose. If you made me use my right hand for
    : holding the camera while zooming (and focusing) and tracking an
    : object, it would severely hurt my photographic abilities.

    I'm nearly ambidextrous, so I have little basis for assessing the handedness
    of a camera. But I do have one observation in that regard. I compose and focus
    with my right eye; and I've noticed that when I crop a picture vertically, the
    part I jettison is almost always on the right. Only within the last few weeks
    did I finally realize why: An SLR viewfinder is near the middle of the camera,
    and when you try to get your eye close to it, your nose is in the way.
    Apparently I compensate for that by turning my head to the left, which causes
    me to see the left side of the field of view more clearly than the right.
    Consequently, I tend to compose the picture without considering its right-hand
    end, which often contains irrelevant stuff. I'm trying to make myself
    compensate, but it isn't that easy to do.

    : There are many more things I would like changed than cameras (or
    : watches). Start with phones.
    :
    : Here's a final thought to leave you with. Don't you think lefties in
    : England complain that cars are right-handed just like lefties here do?

    When manual transmissions were the norm, I'd have expected British drivers to
    consider cars to be left-handed. Now it's hard to see how a car favors one
    hand over the other, either here or there. (Well, maybe it's harder to work
    the radio and air conditioning with your left hand. I don't think I'd care.)

    Bob
     
    Robert Coe, Jan 25, 2009
    #13
  14. tony cooper

    Robert Coe Guest

    On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 19:31:50 -0800, C J Campbell
    <> wrote:
    : On 2009-01-24 17:14:38 -0800, Robert Coe <> said:
    :
    : > On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 18:03:52 -0800, C J Campbell wrote:
    : > : Haha. I was Air Force, and an officer at that. We were never allowed
    : > : near a rifle. I think if I had picked up an M-16 that some kindly NCO
    : > : would have immediately thrown me to the ground, yelling "Don't EVER
    : > : touch that, sir!" Or something like that.
    : > :
    : > : No, we had .38 specials and we all had to qualify both left and right
    : > : handed with them. Not even a Colt .45. Sheesh.
    : >
    : > <chuckle!> That reminds me of our recently departed "President", Little Boy
    : > Bush. During one of his campaigns, the Alabama Air National Guard was savaged
    : > for looking the other way when he failed to show up for a year of duty that
    : > apparently got him out of going to Vietnam. I put myself in the place of the
    : > commander of the Alabama ANG: Do I really want that moron flying around in a
    : > $10 million airplane over populated areas on my watch? The question answers
    : > itself. :^)
    : >
    : > Bob
    :
    : <sigh> So much for Obama's plan to bring unity and civility back into
    : political discourse.
    :
    : Listen, there is not going to be much healing of political divisions in
    : this country if people are going to insist on this over the top,
    : disrespectful, utterly disgusting kind of language. I fail to see how
    : people who do this are showing that they are any smarter than President
    : Bush. Quite the contrary.

    One of the good things about our system is that you can sneer at my opinions
    and the language I use to express them, and there's nothing I can do about it.
    Gitting rid of Bush (and most especially his handler Cheney) helps ensure that
    that will continue to be the case.

    Bob
     
    Robert Coe, Jan 25, 2009
    #14
  15. tony cooper

    Paul Bartram Guest


    > "Pat" <> wrote


    > Here's a final thought to leave you with. Don't you think lefties in
    > England complain that cars are right-handed just like lefties here do?


    Never really thought of cars being left or right -handed, just -drive. I'm
    left handed and drive a RHD van (Australia) with column shift, and I find
    that perfectly comfortable. I have driven a LHD rental in the US and didn't
    find it better or worse.

    I can tell you that being left handed is a curse if you're on dialysis. My
    fistular (needle access) is in my right arm, but the machines are usually on
    the left side of the bed or chair, meaning the blood lines cross over your
    chest - makes reading or eating doubly difficult.

    I have no problems with cameras, you get used to being a bit awkward. Power
    saws are a pain, because the sawdust shoots straight in your face (I tape
    over the shute.)

    I don't write 'overhand' BTW. The only problem I have there is with
    spiral-bound notebooks, I have to use them upside down to avoid the spine.

    Paul
     
    Paul Bartram, Jan 25, 2009
    #15
  16. tony cooper

    tony cooper Guest

    On Sun, 25 Jan 2009 00:29:43 -0500, Robert Coe <> wrote:

    >On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 08:38:02 -0800 (PST), Pat <>
    >wrote:
    >: I don't think the swoop-around writing style of "most" lefties has
    >: anything to do with fountain pens or ink wells. They haven't been
    >: around since Christ was a child. It has more to do with brain wiring
    >: and pen comfort. I have never curled my hand around the paper and
    >: when I see other lefties do it I think "wow that looks awkward".
    >
    >So would I, I think. My father was left-handed, and so was one of my high
    >school classmates with whom I worked at a summer job in college. Both were
    >trained cartographic draftsmen with excellent penmanship, both in printing and
    >in cursive writing, and both eschewed the over-the-top style. I don't think my
    >left-handed granddaughter writes that way either, although I have to confess
    >I'm not certain of that.


    I mentioned that I always print. I took both mechanical and
    architectural drawing courses, and my printing still shows the result
    of that. My cursive is near-illegible because of switching from
    over-the-top to arm-clamped-at-the-side.

    I'm not sure one "eschews" a writing position. Eschewing is a choice
    to shun or avoid. The writing position develops naturally when one
    first learns to write. Left-handers don't choose to write
    over-the-top; it's a natural tendency. I later changed from
    over-the-top, but it was a matter of self-defense rather than
    self-initiated logical choice. I did it to avoid being struck by my
    teachers.

    I would suspect that your father was taught a different position by
    one of his parents in the early grades or before he entered school. A
    little guidance by a parent during the developmental stage makes a big
    difference. I was reading and writing (at a primary level) before I
    entered school, but my mother never tried to influence my writing
    position.

    The left-handers I've known who have never written over-the-top have
    all been people whose parents (usually the mother) worked with them in
    learning to write before they entered school and guided them into the
    standard hand-below-the-line position. Not situations where they
    changed, but situations where they were guided to a style from the
    beginning and that overcame the natural tendency.

    >: Ball point pens -- particularly cheap ones and one with edges (such as
    >: the octagon ones) are particularly painful for lefties to use. It
    >: also probably has something to do with righties teaching lefties to
    >: write. When lefties write, you are pushing against the ball, not
    >: pulling away from it. It gives you more friction and it causes
    >: blochiness. It's just the mechanics of the pen. I switched to liquid
    >: ink (or gel) as soon as I used the first one I came across. I don't
    >: even bother to steal pens from cashiers because if I come across one
    >: at home, I just throw it out anyway.
    >
    >Who knew there was a handedness to ballpoint pens? Live a lot, learn a little,
    >I guess.


    I've certainly never noticed it.


    --
    Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
     
    tony cooper, Jan 25, 2009
    #16
  17. tony cooper

    tony cooper Guest

    On Sun, 25 Jan 2009 15:53:40 +1000, "Paul Bartram" <paul.bartram AT OR
    NEAR lizzy.com.au> wrote:

    >I have no problems with cameras, you get used to being a bit awkward. Power
    >saws are a pain, because the sawdust shoots straight in your face (I tape
    >over the shute.)


    I use a left-handed circular saw. Home Depot carries them.
    >
    >I don't write 'overhand' BTW. The only problem I have there is with
    >spiral-bound notebooks, I have to use them upside down to avoid the spine.


    Agreed. I like top spirals for this reason.


    --
    Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
     
    tony cooper, Jan 25, 2009
    #17
  18. tony cooper

    Ray Fischer Guest

    C J Campbell <> wrote:
    >On 2009-01-24 17:14:38 -0800, Robert Coe <> said:
    >
    >> On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 18:03:52 -0800, C J Campbell wrote:
    >> : Haha. I was Air Force, and an officer at that. We were never allowed
    >> : near a rifle. I think if I had picked up an M-16 that some kindly NCO
    >> : would have immediately thrown me to the ground, yelling "Don't EVER
    >> : touch that, sir!" Or something like that.
    >> :
    >> : No, we had .38 specials and we all had to qualify both left and right
    >> : handed with them. Not even a Colt .45. Sheesh.
    >>
    >> <chuckle!> That reminds me of our recently departed "President", Little Boy
    >> Bush. During one of his campaigns, the Alabama Air National Guard was savaged
    >> for looking the other way when he failed to show up for a year of duty that
    >> apparently got him out of going to Vietnam. I put myself in the place of the
    >> commander of the Alabama ANG: Do I really want that moron flying around in a
    >> $10 million airplane over populated areas on my watch? The question answers
    >> itself. :^)
    >>
    >> Bob

    >
    ><sigh> So much for Obama's plan to bring unity and civility back into
    >political discourse.
    >
    >Listen, there is not going to be much healing of political divisions in
    >this country if people are going to insist on this over the top,
    >disrespectful, utterly disgusting kind of language.


    Oooo! Another Bush apologist!

    > I fail to see how
    >people who do this are showing that they are any smarter than President
    >Bush. Quite the contrary.


    Well, we haven't killed hundreds of thousands of people, for one.
    I actually pay my bills, for another.

    --
    Ray Fischer
     
    Ray Fischer, Jan 25, 2009
    #18
  19. tony cooper

    tony cooper Guest

    On Sun, 25 Jan 2009 05:54:52 -0600, "HEMI - Powered" <>
    wrote:

    >Pat added these comments in the current discussion du jour ...
    >
    >> I don't think the swoop-around writing style of "most" lefties
    >> has anything to do with fountain pens or ink wells. They
    >> haven't been around since Christ was a child. It has more to do
    >> with brain wiring and pen comfort. I have never curled my hand
    >> around the paper and when I see other lefties do it I think "wow
    >> that looks awkward".

    >
    >Actually, it does, Pat.
    >
    >When I was a small child in Catholic school, we were required to
    >use fountain pens with real ink in them. They allowed the kids to
    >print and write left-handed but those who did quickly found out
    >that if they kept their hands down as the right-handed kids did,
    >they smeared the ink as they moved from left to right across the
    >sheet. Righties don't smear because the pen itself is the left-most
    >part of the process. So, my friends learned to twist their wrists
    >so as to get their hands ABOVE the line of ink being laid down in
    >that characteristic form. It DID stop the ink from being smeared IF
    >the students not only kept the palm of the hand and wrist out of
    >the way but also lifted their fingers completely above the wet ink.


    That is only true when one or two lines of writing is the case. When
    an entire page is written, there the over-the-top style *still*
    results in smeared ink and inky hands, arms, and sleeves.

    As a left-hander who attended Catholic grade school at the time stick
    pens and inkwells were used, I assure you that the writing position
    was *not* adopted to avoid smearing and did nothing to avoid smearing.
    It was just their natural inclination.



    >
    >It amuses me that our new president, who claims to be so smart,
    >ever allowed himself to fall for not only being out-of-touch with
    >mainstream thinking about handedness and also to look particularly
    >silly when signing his name.


    While I don't think it looks silly, it is *what* he signs that is
    important. So far, he is showing a great deal of intelligence in
    choosing what to sign. Quite unlike his predecessor.


    --
    Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
     
    tony cooper, Jan 25, 2009
    #19
  20. In article <>, tony_cooper213
    @earthlink.net says...

    > What is odd about Obama is that he wears his wrist-watch on his left
    > hand. Most left-handers wear their wrist-watch on their right hand.


    I have not found that to be the case. Since there are few "left-
    handed" watches, operating a "normal" watch on the right hand is very
    difficult, especially winding/setting, as you can't bend your wrist to
    get clear access to the watchstem.

    --Gene (lefty).
     
    Gene S. Berkowitz, Jan 25, 2009
    #20
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