Re: Copyright proof for digital images

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by zuuum, Jan 6, 2004.

  1. zuuum

    zuuum Guest

    In fact, one could use posting to a webserver into non-public directories as
    proof of date of possession as much as the old trick of mailing a document
    to yourself through the USPS. But, in the former case there would be no way
    to "tamper with the envelop", unless you conspired with the ISP, so it would
    be superior to the latter. It is a rediculous cludge, but technically, the
    server's logged file transfer date and time would probably stand in court.
    Now, the practicality of archiving all your work in such a manner is pretty
    much absurd.

    "zuuum" <> wrote in message news:...
    > His logged post of the image on the server will prove it's date of origin,
    > even more than any embedded file info
    >
    > Duh!
    >
    >
    > "TenKMan" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > Why is top posting a problem?
    > >
    > >
    > > "Alan Browne" <> wrote in message
    > > news:fDkKb.89855$...
    > > > Techno Aussie wrote:
    > > >
    > > > > You're kidding, right?
    > > > > Would you actually do that sort of thing?
    > > > >
    > > > > "Alan Browne" <> wrote in message
    > > > > news:zm_Jb.25777$...
    > > > >
    > > > >>. For example,
    > > > >>if I rip off an image from Bret Douglas, like the full detail hawk

    > > image
    > > > >>he posted recently on pbase, I could use a binary editor to change

    > > the
    > > > >>date and whatever other little details may please me and then claim

    > > it
    > > > >>as my own.
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > First off, please stop top posting.
    > > >
    > > > Secondly, if you don't recognize it as an "example" as opposed to
    > > > intent, then any other discussion is moot.
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > --
    > > > e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.
    > > >

    > >
    > >

    >
    >
     
    zuuum, Jan 6, 2004
    #1
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  2. zuuum

    Ken Weitzel Guest

    Hi...

    Answer at the bottom...

    zuuum wrote:
    > In fact, one could use posting to a webserver into non-public directories as
    > proof of date of possession as much as the old trick of mailing a document
    > to yourself through the USPS. But, in the former case there would be no way
    > to "tamper with the envelop", unless you conspired with the ISP, so it would
    > be superior to the latter. It is a rediculous cludge, but technically, the
    > server's logged file transfer date and time would probably stand in court.
    > Now, the practicality of archiving all your work in such a manner is pretty
    > much absurd.
    >
    > "zuuum" <> wrote in message news:...
    >
    >>His logged post of the image on the server will prove it's date of origin,
    >>even more than any embedded file info
    >>
    >>Duh!
    >>
    >>
    >>"TenKMan" <> wrote in message
    >>news:...
    >>
    >>>Why is top posting a problem?
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>"Alan Browne" <> wrote in message
    >>>news:fDkKb.89855$...
    >>>
    >>>>Techno Aussie wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>>You're kidding, right?
    >>>>>Would you actually do that sort of thing?
    >>>>>
    >>>>>"Alan Browne" <> wrote in message
    >>>>>news:zm_Jb.25777$...
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>>. For example,
    >>>>>>if I rip off an image from Bret Douglas, like the full detail hawk
    >>>>>
    >>>image
    >>>
    >>>>>>he posted recently on pbase, I could use a binary editor to change
    >>>>>
    >>>the
    >>>
    >>>>>>date and whatever other little details may please me and then claim
    >>>>>
    >>>it
    >>>
    >>>>>>as my own.
    >>>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>First off, please stop top posting.
    >>>>
    >>>>Secondly, if you don't recognize it as an "example" as opposed to
    >>>>intent, then any other discussion is moot.
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>--
    >>>>e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.
    >>>>



    Sorry, the word or file date or whatever from any ISP
    is going to be worth less than a grain of salt in any
    court.

    On the other hand, the weight of a hand cancelled
    postmark from any post office - Canada Post, the USPS,
    the Royal Mail, etc will be overwhelming.

    Take care.

    Ken
     
    Ken Weitzel, Jan 6, 2004
    #2
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  3. On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 05:16:30 GMT, Ken Weitzel <>
    wrote:

    >Sorry, the word or file date or whatever from any ISP
    >is going to be worth less than a grain of salt in any
    >court.


    I can't speak for Canadian law, but I know of several U.S. cases where
    a court or an arbitrator has decided a case based on computer
    generated timestamps.

    Like any other record, a timestamp can be forged or altered, and
    the opposing side is free to attack such an offering through testimony
    and cross examination. Likewise, the side making the offering can and
    usually does present corrorating evidence, such as operator testimony,
    system logs, or backup tapes.

    There are better approaches, such as secure digital timestamps and
    electronic signatures, but for a civil case

    >On the other hand, the weight of a hand cancelled
    >postmark from any post office - Canada Post, the USPS,
    >the Royal Mail, etc will be overwhelming.


    An interesting view, given how trivial it is to forge such a
    mark.

    --
    Michael Benveniste --
    Spam and UCE professionally evaluated for $250. Use this email
    address only to submit mail for evaluation.
     
    Michael Benveniste, Jan 7, 2004
    #3
  4. zuuum

    cf Guest

    You referred to file date on the server as proof of date, of course this
    will be wiped clean, if the server uses backup system that rewrite them
    during the backup, in which the file date will always change at the time of
    backup, or during a disk recovery after a system breakdown.

    However zuuum refered to the server's log file that record the date of the
    files being uploaded, if it exists, it could served as proof of date, which
    the court inevitably has to accept whether it is customary for them to
    accept it as proof or not. It is critical to check whether the server kept
    such a permanent log file, before use this method as proof of date.

    Whereas the weight of a hand cancelled postmark from any post office will
    always risk the challenge from the accused that the envelope has being
    tempered, and that it is easy for a thief to opened any old envelop with a
    date stamp older than yours and place the image file inside to claim its
    ownership. If people can make counterfeit note, no reason why they cannot
    open a sealed evelope and sealed it back. Or simply mail an unsealed envelop
    to themselves for their later use, this does not require any technical
    expertise. Unless the envelop is mailed to a person with authority, such as
    attorney, there is a risk that the envelop you mailed to yourself failed to
    withstand the challenged of the accused that it has being tempered,
    especially when the accused claimed to possessed the image file in an
    envelop older than yours. Since the court customary take date stamp of
    envelop as proof of date, there is no reason why they cannot take the date
    stamp on the accused's envelop as proof.

    Therefore, other better, cheaper alternative would be to take a photography
    of yourself holding the printed image in front of a date sign in recognised
    private or public places, such as in a large annoucement board, or scene of
    any anniversary events with a big notice board. Later if scrutinized, you
    would have the owners of the places to verified the time of the scene taken.

    The above best apply to copyright proof for textual documents, for digital
    images, simply retaining uncropped original, or raw file to yourself is
    sufficient.



    On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 05:16:30 GMT, Ken Weitzel <> wrote:

    >zuuum wrote:
    >> In fact, one could use posting to a webserver into non-public directories

    as
    >> proof of date of possession as much as the old trick of mailing a

    document
    >> to yourself through the USPS. But, in the former case there would be no

    way
    >> to "tamper with the envelop", unless you conspired with the ISP, so it

    would
    >> be superior to the latter. It is a rediculous cludge, but technically,

    the
    >> server's logged file transfer date and time would probably stand in

    court.
    >> Now, the practicality of archiving all your work in such a manner is

    pretty
    >> much absurd.
    >>
    >> "zuuum" <> wrote in message news:...
    >>
    >>>His logged post of the image on the server will prove it's date of

    origin,
    >>>even more than any embedded file info
    >>>
    >>>Duh!
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>"TenKMan" <> wrote in message
    >>>news:...
    >>>
    >>>>Why is top posting a problem?
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>"Alan Browne" <> wrote in message
    >>>>news:fDkKb.89855$...
    >>>>
    >>>>>Techno Aussie wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>>You're kidding, right?
    >>>>>>Would you actually do that sort of thing?
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>"Alan Browne" <> wrote in message
    >>>>>>news:zm_Jb.25777$...
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>>. For example,
    >>>>>>>if I rip off an image from Bret Douglas, like the full detail hawk
    >>>>>>
    >>>>image
    >>>>
    >>>>>>>he posted recently on pbase, I could use a binary editor to change
    >>>>>>
    >>>>the
    >>>>
    >>>>>>>date and whatever other little details may please me and then claim
    >>>>>>
    >>>>it
    >>>>
    >>>>>>>as my own.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>First off, please stop top posting.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>Secondly, if you don't recognize it as an "example" as opposed to
    >>>>>intent, then any other discussion is moot.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>--
    >>>>>e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.
    >>>>>

    >
    >
    >Sorry, the word or file date or whatever from any ISP
    >is going to be worth less than a grain of salt in any
    >court.
    >
    >On the other hand, the weight of a hand cancelled
    >postmark from any post office - Canada Post, the USPS,
    >the Royal Mail, etc will be overwhelming.
    >
    >Take care.
    >
    >Ken
     
    cf, Jan 7, 2004
    #4
  5. zuuum

    Paul Rubin Guest

    Thinking about it some more, I don't believe any of this proof stuff
    is relevant. Once you get to a court, ownership of the photo is
    unlikely to be seriously disputed. The problem is getting to court in
    the first place.

    Digimarc doesn't provide solid proof of anything in court, and their
    marketeers are exaggerating if they say it can. However, its purpose
    is something different. Apparently part of Digimarc's business is
    running a big web spider that slurps images from all over the web,
    looking for Digimarc watermarks. When it finds them, it matches them
    up with the owners' sites and so in that way, it finds where the
    infringers are. It's then up to the rights owner to pursue further
    enforcement.
     
    Paul Rubin, Jan 7, 2004
    #5
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