Re: Computer won't boot up

Discussion in 'Computer Information' started by Jeff Strickland, Nov 17, 2008.

  1. "j" <> wrote in message
    news:1z4Uk.522$...
    > My computer was running fine until I connected a device made by
    > Hewlett-Packard called a "HP dvd movie writer dc3000" to it and began
    > copying a movie.
    >
    > I was using the HP dvd movie writer for the first time, went to the store
    > and came back an hour later and found the computer froze up with the image
    > of the movie still on the monitor. I was unable to reboot the computer so
    > I
    > unplugged the computer's power cable, then plugged it back in and tried to
    > reboot. The computer not only fails to reboot, it also fails to go through
    > the bios and memory check. There is also a red led glowing on the
    > motherboard that I've not noticed before, but it's possible that the red
    > light has always been on and I just haven't noticed it. The processor fan
    > comes on and so does the green light on the front of the computer.
    >
    > I took the hard drive out and put it into this old spare tower that I am
    > using now and I'm not having any problems, so I'm sure that the problem is
    > in the computer and not the drive. Does anyone know what the trouble may
    > be?
    > I can't imagine that the HP dvd movie making device could have damaged
    > anything (it plugs into the usb port). The computer has a 2 gig processor
    > and three 256 megabyte memory cards plugged into it, XP pro SP2 operating
    > system. Thanks for the help.
    >
    >



    I'm guessing that the power supply has taken a bye.

    You could also have trouble with the memory modules.

    I doubt you damaged anything. Well, except the power supply. The power
    supply in HP machines is marginal at best. They know what the loading is on
    the machine, and the power supply meets that load plus a couple of percent
    for margin. You come along and add a USB device that draws more power than
    the power supply is intended to provide, and it gives out a puff of magic
    smoke and the whole mess stops working.

    The good news is, the power supply specs are defined by the size and shape,
    so you can pull the supply and go buy another one that puts out 50% or 100%
    more power (total amps). The power connections will be proper, but will
    offer more current than the old one. Current that is available but not used
    is simply ignored, nothing will burn up because there is enough power to do
    more work than is needed. If there is a supplied VOLTAGE that is not right,
    this can be a problem -- possibly fatal -- but if there is 7 amps supplied
    where there was formerly 4 amps, nothing will care.

    Again, the different kinds of power supplies are defined by the physical
    size and shape so you will not install the wrong one. Take your old one to
    the corner computer service store, a replacement power supply will cost you
    $35-ish.
     
    Jeff Strickland, Nov 17, 2008
    #1
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  2. Jeff Strickland

    Neil Green Guest

    "Jeff Strickland" <> wrote in message
    news:gfqlqv$dgu$...
    >
    > "j" <> wrote in message
    > news:1z4Uk.522$...
    >> My computer was running fine until I connected a
    >> device made by
    >> Hewlett-Packard called a "HP dvd movie writer
    >> dc3000" to it and began
    >> copying a movie.
    >>
    >> I was using the HP dvd movie writer for the first
    >> time, went to the store
    >> and came back an hour later and found the computer
    >> froze up with the image
    >> of the movie still on the monitor. I was unable to
    >> reboot the computer so I
    >> unplugged the computer's power cable, then plugged
    >> it back in and tried to
    >> reboot. The computer not only fails to reboot, it
    >> also fails to go through
    >> the bios and memory check. There is also a red led
    >> glowing on the
    >> motherboard that I've not noticed before, but it's
    >> possible that the red
    >> light has always been on and I just haven't noticed
    >> it. The processor fan
    >> comes on and so does the green light on the front
    >> of the computer.
    >>
    >> I took the hard drive out and put it into this old
    >> spare tower that I am
    >> using now and I'm not having any problems, so I'm
    >> sure that the problem is
    >> in the computer and not the drive. Does anyone know
    >> what the trouble may be?
    >> I can't imagine that the HP dvd movie making device
    >> could have damaged
    >> anything (it plugs into the usb port). The computer
    >> has a 2 gig processor
    >> and three 256 megabyte memory cards plugged into
    >> it, XP pro SP2 operating
    >> system. Thanks for the help.
    >>
    >>

    >
    >
    > I'm guessing that the power supply has taken a bye.
    >
    > You could also have trouble with the memory modules.
    >
    > I doubt you damaged anything. Well, except the power
    > supply. The power supply in HP machines is marginal
    > at best. They know what the loading is on the
    > machine, and the power supply meets that load plus a
    > couple of percent for margin. You come along and add
    > a USB device that draws more power than the power
    > supply is intended to provide, and it gives out a
    > puff of magic smoke and the whole mess stops
    > working.
    >
    > The good news is, the power supply specs are defined
    > by the size and shape, so you can pull the supply
    > and go buy another one that puts out 50% or 100%
    > more power (total amps). The power connections will
    > be proper, but will offer more current than the old
    > one. Current that is available but not used is
    > simply ignored, nothing will burn up because there
    > is enough power to do more work than is needed. If
    > there is a supplied VOLTAGE that is not right, this
    > can be a problem -- possibly fatal -- but if there
    > is 7 amps supplied where there was formerly 4 amps,
    > nothing will care.
    >
    > Again, the different kinds of power supplies are
    > defined by the physical size and shape so you will
    > not install the wrong one. Take your old one to the
    > corner computer service store, a replacement power
    > supply will cost you $35-ish.


    Not necessarily.
    Many HP/Compaq/Dell machines have odd PSU's that
    aren't standard ATX units, and most computer shops
    won't carry them.
    I repaced one for a friend recently in an older HP and
    it was over $100.
    In any case the $35 Yum Cha power supplies are junk,
    better to spend $90 - $100 on an Antec or similar PSU,
    much quieter and far more reliable.
     
    Neil Green, Nov 17, 2008
    #2
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  3. Jeff Strickland

    Guest

    On Nov 16, 9:44 pm, "Jeff Strickland" <> wrote:
    > I'm guessing that thepower supplyhas taken a bye.
    >
    > You could also have trouble with the memory modules.
    >
    > I doubt you damaged anything. Well, except thepower supply. Thepowersupplyin HP machines is marginal at best. They know what the loading is on
    > the machine, and thepower supplymeets that load plus a couple of percent
    > for margin. You come along and add a USB device that draws more power than
    > thepower supplyis intended to provide, and it gives out a puff of magic
    > smoke and the whole mess stops working.


    Basic electrical knowledge says this poster has no clue. Does an
    overloaded power supply fail? Of course not. Not today and not 30+
    years ago long before PCs even existed. In fact, ATX power supply
    specs state that all supply outputs must be shorted together (even
    greatest load) and the power supply must not be damaged. The specs
    even define how big the wire must be to short with - because the load
    must never damage a power supply.

    HP power supplies are typically robust. And since HP gives honest
    numbers, then the smaller wattage HP supply often is more powerful
    than that larger watts supply marketed to computer assemblers. If the
    HP supply is rated at 275 watts, then the equivalent computer
    assembler's supply may be rated at 400 watts. Neither is lying. But
    the computer assembler who did not learn this stuff can easily be
    deceived. Same people also 'wish' a power supply can be damaged by
    its load.

    USB device causing a significant load? Again, the poster has not a
    clue. No USB device can exceed 10 watts - near zero power. Computer
    assemblers who never learned electricity and ignore numbers would
    worry about excessive USB loading. Others would know better.

    If the fan spins, then 12 volts is OK? Of course not. A defective
    power supply can even boot a computer. And the power supply fan could
    be powered from -12 volts; not +12 volts. Is the power supply good
    or bad? Nobody can say until you provide numbers from a 3.5 digit
    multimeter. Only then do we move on to other suspects.

    IOW replace or disconnect no parts or cables. Simply measure
    voltages on any one of gray, green, purple, red, orange, and yellow
    wires both before and when power switch is pressed. The less than two
    minute task is discussed in "When your computer dies without
    warning....." starting 6 Feb 2007 in the newsgroup alt.windows-xp
    at:
    http://tinyurl.com/yvf9vh
    Connector chart to locate each color:
    http://www.hardwarebook.net/connector/power/atxpower.html

    Then post numbers here to get further knowledge. If the numbers
    report a supply 'system' (yes a 'system' - not just a power supply)
    good, only then move on to other suspects. And never look back
    because the answer is definitive - no doubts. IOW know if it is good
    or bad in but minutes AND never disconnect or remove anything.

    Red light says the motherboard is powered. Never install or remove
    parts if the power cord is connected to the computer and if that red
    light is lit. Always remove power cord before doing any hardware
    changes - otherwise damage can be created.

    Your computer is HP. That means if anything can boot, then you next
    execute the manufacture comprehensive diagnostics. Inferior computers
    don't provide those comprehensive diagnostics. And again, the
    diagnostics identify a defective part before you replace it. In
    your case, the machine cannot boot - therefore cannot execute
    diagnostics which is why you need the multimeter and those numbers.
    Only with facts - ie those numbers - will the better informed be able
    to post a useful reply.

    Other important information request was for model number. Also
    useless was a post that said, "could be a CPU". Fine. So what do you
    do to answer that question? No solution was posted. Could be a long
    list of items. Do you replace everything or do you first learn what
    has failed? Find the problem long before replacing anything. Or as
    the Japanese would say, "work smarter, not harder".
     
    , Nov 18, 2008
    #3
  4. Jeff Strickland

    Baron Guest

    Hello Tom,

    Still here spouting your creed I see !

    Gave up on surge arrestors did we.... Shame
    I was quite enjoying that thread.

    wrote:

    > On Nov 16, 9:44 pm, "Jeff Strickland" <> wrote:
    >> I'm guessing that thepower supplyhas taken a bye.
    >>
    >> You could also have trouble with the memory modules.
    >>
    >> I doubt you damaged anything. Well, except thepower supply.
    >> Thepowersupplyin HP machines is marginal at best. They know what the
    >> loading is on the machine, and thepower supplymeets that load plus a
    >> couple of percent for margin. You come along and add a USB device
    >> that draws more power than thepower supplyis intended to provide, and
    >> it gives out a puff of magic smoke and the whole mess stops working.

    >
    > Basic electrical knowledge says this poster has no clue. Does an
    > overloaded power supply fail? Of course not. Not today and not 30+
    > years ago long before PCs even existed. In fact, ATX power supply
    > specs state that all supply outputs must be shorted together (even
    > greatest load) and the power supply must not be damaged. The specs
    > even define how big the wire must be to short with - because the load
    > must never damage a power supply.
    >
    > HP power supplies are typically robust. And since HP gives honest
    > numbers, then the smaller wattage HP supply often is more powerful
    > than that larger watts supply marketed to computer assemblers. If the
    > HP supply is rated at 275 watts, then the equivalent computer
    > assembler's supply may be rated at 400 watts. Neither is lying. But
    > the computer assembler who did not learn this stuff can easily be
    > deceived. Same people also 'wish' a power supply can be damaged by
    > its load.
    >
    > USB device causing a significant load? Again, the poster has not a
    > clue. No USB device can exceed 10 watts - near zero power. Computer
    > assemblers who never learned electricity and ignore numbers would
    > worry about excessive USB loading. Others would know better.
    >
    > If the fan spins, then 12 volts is OK? Of course not. A defective
    > power supply can even boot a computer. And the power supply fan could
    > be powered from -12 volts; not +12 volts. Is the power supply good
    > or bad? Nobody can say until you provide numbers from a 3.5 digit
    > multimeter. Only then do we move on to other suspects.
    >
    > IOW replace or disconnect no parts or cables. Simply measure
    > voltages on any one of gray, green, purple, red, orange, and yellow
    > wires both before and when power switch is pressed. The less than two
    > minute task is discussed in "When your computer dies without
    > warning....." starting 6 Feb 2007 in the newsgroup alt.windows-xp
    > at:
    > http://tinyurl.com/yvf9vh
    > Connector chart to locate each color:
    > http://www.hardwarebook.net/connector/power/atxpower.html
    >
    > Then post numbers here to get further knowledge. If the numbers
    > report a supply 'system' (yes a 'system' - not just a power supply)
    > good, only then move on to other suspects. And never look back
    > because the answer is definitive - no doubts. IOW know if it is good
    > or bad in but minutes AND never disconnect or remove anything.
    >
    > Red light says the motherboard is powered. Never install or remove
    > parts if the power cord is connected to the computer and if that red
    > light is lit. Always remove power cord before doing any hardware
    > changes - otherwise damage can be created.
    >
    > Your computer is HP. That means if anything can boot, then you next
    > execute the manufacture comprehensive diagnostics. Inferior computers
    > don't provide those comprehensive diagnostics. And again, the
    > diagnostics identify a defective part before you replace it. In
    > your case, the machine cannot boot - therefore cannot execute
    > diagnostics which is why you need the multimeter and those numbers.
    > Only with facts - ie those numbers - will the better informed be able
    > to post a useful reply.
    >
    > Other important information request was for model number. Also
    > useless was a post that said, "could be a CPU". Fine. So what do you
    > do to answer that question? No solution was posted. Could be a long
    > list of items. Do you replace everything or do you first learn what
    > has failed? Find the problem long before replacing anything. Or as
    > the Japanese would say, "work smarter, not harder".


    --
    Best Regards:
    Baron.
     
    Baron, Nov 19, 2008
    #4
  5. <> wrote in message
    news:...
    On Nov 16, 9:44 pm, "Jeff Strickland" <> wrote:
    > I'm guessing that thepower supplyhas taken a bye.
    >
    > You could also have trouble with the memory modules.
    >
    > I doubt you damaged anything. Well, except thepower supply.
    > Thepowersupplyin HP machines is marginal at best. They know what the
    > loading is on
    > the machine, and thepower supplymeets that load plus a couple of percent
    > for margin. You come along and add a USB device that draws more power than
    > thepower supplyis intended to provide, and it gives out a puff of magic
    > smoke and the whole mess stops working.


    Basic electrical knowledge says this poster has no clue. Does an
    overloaded power supply fail? Of course not. Not today and not 30+
    years ago long before PCs even existed. In fact, ATX power supply
    specs state that all supply outputs must be shorted together (even
    greatest load) and the power supply must not be damaged. The specs
    even define how big the wire must be to short with - because the load
    must never damage a power supply.

    HP power supplies are typically robust. And since HP gives honest
    numbers, then the smaller wattage HP supply often is more powerful
    than that larger watts supply marketed to computer assemblers. If the
    HP supply is rated at 275 watts, then the equivalent computer
    assembler's supply may be rated at 400 watts. Neither is lying. But
    the computer assembler who did not learn this stuff can easily be
    deceived. Same people also 'wish' a power supply can be damaged by
    its load.

    USB device causing a significant load? Again, the poster has not a
    clue. No USB device can exceed 10 watts - near zero power. Computer
    assemblers who never learned electricity and ignore numbers would
    worry about excessive USB loading. Others would know better.

    If the fan spins, then 12 volts is OK? Of course not. A defective
    power supply can even boot a computer. And the power supply fan could
    be powered from -12 volts; not +12 volts. Is the power supply good
    or bad? Nobody can say until you provide numbers from a 3.5 digit
    multimeter. Only then do we move on to other suspects.

    IOW replace or disconnect no parts or cables. Simply measure
    voltages on any one of gray, green, purple, red, orange, and yellow
    wires both before and when power switch is pressed. The less than two
    minute task is discussed in "When your computer dies without
    warning....." starting 6 Feb 2007 in the newsgroup alt.windows-xp
    at:
    http://tinyurl.com/yvf9vh
    Connector chart to locate each color:
    http://www.hardwarebook.net/connector/power/atxpower.html

    Then post numbers here to get further knowledge. If the numbers
    report a supply 'system' (yes a 'system' - not just a power supply)
    good, only then move on to other suspects. And never look back
    because the answer is definitive - no doubts. IOW know if it is good
    or bad in but minutes AND never disconnect or remove anything.

    Red light says the motherboard is powered. Never install or remove
    parts if the power cord is connected to the computer and if that red
    light is lit. Always remove power cord before doing any hardware
    changes - otherwise damage can be created.

    Your computer is HP. That means if anything can boot, then you next
    execute the manufacture comprehensive diagnostics. Inferior computers
    don't provide those comprehensive diagnostics. And again, the
    diagnostics identify a defective part before you replace it. In
    your case, the machine cannot boot - therefore cannot execute
    diagnostics which is why you need the multimeter and those numbers.
    Only with facts - ie those numbers - will the better informed be able
    to post a useful reply.

    Other important information request was for model number. Also
    useless was a post that said, "could be a CPU". Fine. So what do you
    do to answer that question? No solution was posted. Could be a long
    list of items. Do you replace everything or do you first learn what
    has failed? Find the problem long before replacing anything. Or as
    the Japanese would say, "work smarter, not harder".





    <JS>
    Say what you will, but I had two power supplies fail after installing new
    hardware. I had one that could not support a new USB device. I removed the
    device and the computer would work, install the device and the machine would
    not boot.

    I replaced the power supply and the computer worked with the USB device
    installed. I have very little to conclude except the power supply was
    under-rated. It could support the machine as delivered, but could not
    support new hardware that drew power through the PCI inteface, and many
    add-on hardware devices require.

    I had a power supply faile as a result of an EXTERNAL failure of the
    neighborhood's electrical system. I allowed the computer parts store to sell
    me a new motherboard because he stated in no uncertain terms that the
    replacement power supply he sold me was good out of box when it was really
    bad. Upon a rudamentry inspection of the first power supply, the components
    where the magic smoke had escaped (all electronics work by magic smoke, and
    when the smoke escapes, the electronics stop working) were located at
    connections made to the external power cord. In any case, the machine had
    failed, and I installed an new power supply that also did not work. The
    computer guy said the mother board had taken a dive, so I bought a new one,
    and the machine STILL would not come up. I took the whole thing to him and
    he tested it, he installed yet another power supply for free and it worked.
    I now have a motherboard that I don't need, but he asserts that it took out
    his new power supply that he replaced for free.

    So, power supplies can and do fail. Perhaps for different reasons than I
    understand, but I maintain the OP should consider this on the road to his
    recovery efforts.





    </JS>
     
    Jeff Strickland, Nov 21, 2008
    #5
  6. Jeff Strickland

    Guest

    On Nov 21, 3:16 pm, "Jeff Strickland" <> wrote:
    > Say what you will, but I had two power supplies fail after installing new
    > hardware. I had one that could not support a new USB device. I removed the
    > device and thecomputerwould work, install the device and the machine would
    > not boot.


    That suggests the power supply was already defective - as would have
    been obvious by using a meter. As noted so many times previously, a
    defective supply can still boot a computer. Your example only again
    demonstrates the point.

    Another standard procedure is to use a meter after installing a new
    supply to confirm the supply 'system' is working. Again, a defective
    'system' could still boot the computer. A meter would identify a
    defect long before the computer crashed ... or a USB device makes the
    defect obvious.

    If a power supply failed due to an external electric system
    failure ... well, with basic electrical knowledge, that failure is
    identified and what was damaged inside the supply is known. Yes,
    power supplies fail for various reasons. But a power supply 'system'
    is so robust that a computer should continue working long after other
    household appliances are damaged.

    Meanwhile, the OP will not get a useful - definitive - reply without
    numbers from a tool sold where hammers are also sold for about the
    same price - a multimeter. Numbers mean parts get replaced AFTER
    being identified defective. Numbers mean that a defective supply
    'system' is identified long before a USB device finally makes the
    defect obvious. Yes, the meter is also necessary to confirm a new
    power supply is sufficient – will not fail even with a trivial USB
    load.

    If that USB device finally made a defective power supply 'system'
    apparent, then the ‘system’ was defective when built. Since a tech
    did not use a meter, then the defect was never identified. A common
    problem where techs assume the supply is good only because a computer
    boots. A common problem where so many techs only know how to shotgun
    or buy power supplies only on dollars and watts – not on any technical
    specs.

    An OP that wants definitive answers uses a multimeter. An informed
    tech also knows that HP power supplies (with smaller numbers) are more
    than sufficient. An informed tech knows why that 400 watt power
    supply marketed to the electrically naive has the same wattage as a
    275 watt HP supply. An informed tech also knows many supplies
    marketed to the electrically naive also are missing functions
    routinely found in HP supplies. The HP supply was not marginal. But
    so many computer assemblers do not even know of essential functions
    missing in supplies marketed only to them.

    If a USB device overloads a power supply, that supply was obviously
    defective when it was installed. A failure directly traaceable to the
    installer.
     
    , Nov 21, 2008
    #6
  7. <> wrote in message
    news:...
    On Nov 21, 3:16 pm, "Jeff Strickland" <> wrote:
    > Say what you will, but I had two power supplies fail after installing new
    > hardware. I had one that could not support a new USB device. I removed the
    > device and thecomputerwould work, install the device and the machine would
    > not boot.


    That suggests the power supply was already defective - as would have
    been obvious by using a meter. As noted so many times previously, a
    defective supply can still boot a computer. Your example only again
    demonstrates the point.


    <JS>
    Whatever.

    I don't really care. I painted a pictrure of a machine that worked, new
    stuff was added and the machine did not work. I don't care that the new
    stuff took the power supply out or if the power4 supply was weak and simpley
    gave up at that point. The bottom line is, the OP added new stuff and the
    machine does not work. One valid troubleshooting technique would be to check
    the power supply. You can pull out the multimeter and start poking around,
    or you can install a new power supply for 40-ish dollars.

    </JS>


    Another standard procedure is to use a meter after installing a new
    supply to confirm the supply 'system' is working. Again, a defective
    'system' could still boot the computer. A meter would identify a
    defect long before the computer crashed ... or a USB device makes the
    defect obvious.



    <JS>
    Why woud anybody bother to check the power _before_ it has failed?

    Our natural instinct is that if it works, leave the Hell alone. Nobody would
    recognize an _impending_ failure, that's why so many faliures are found when
    it is critical for them not to exist.

    </JS>
     
    Jeff Strickland, Nov 22, 2008
    #7
  8. Jeff Strickland

    Guest

    On Nov 21, 10:54 pm, "Jeff Strickland" <> wrote:
    >> I don't really care. I painted a pictrure of a machine that worked, new

    > stuff was added and the machine did not work.


    You painted a picture of a defective power supply booting and
    running a computer. A system so marginal that adding a 'single digit'
    watt load was enough to cause complete failure. A defect that could
    have been measured by a multimeter even when the supply was first
    installed.

    Instead you made the classic mistake of assuming. You assumed that
    because a computer boots, then a power supply is OK. And now you make
    another mistake by denying your first mistake and fundamental facts
    about how power supplies work.

    If a single digit load from a USB device causes a power supply to
    fail, then the power supply was always defective even before that USB
    peripheral was added.

    That is the underlying principle - the hypothesis that comes from
    knowing how electricity and hardware works. How do we turn a
    hypothesis into fact? Also required is experimental evidence which is
    why trained technicians understand and use the meter. Since you
    'knew' without using a meter, all we have is the only hypothesis that
    explains your failure.

    Meanwhile, what is your hypothesis? That a tiny USB load causes a
    power supply to fail? That hypothesis violates fundamental power
    supply knowledge and generations of engineering experience. Which one
    here brings generations of engineering experience?

    Even more rediculous was the 'HP power supplies are marginal' myth.
    Also telling is a recommendation for a $35 supply. $35 is typical of
    power supplies that are missing essential functions. Supplies marketed
    to computer assemblers who don't have basic electrical knowledge.

    A 18 November post answers the OP's original problems. It also
    addresses so numerous ridiculous 'fixes' that might even complicate a
    solution.
     
    , Nov 22, 2008
    #8
  9. <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Nov 21, 10:54 pm, "Jeff Strickland" <> wrote:
    >>> I don't really care. I painted a pictrure of a machine that worked, new

    >> stuff was added and the machine did not work.

    >
    > You painted a picture of a defective power supply booting and
    > running a computer. A system so marginal that adding a 'single digit'
    > watt load was enough to cause complete failure. A defect that could
    > have been measured by a multimeter even when the supply was first
    > installed.
    >
    > Instead you made the classic mistake of assuming. You assumed that
    > because a computer boots, then a power supply is OK. And now you make
    > another mistake by denying your first mistake and fundamental facts
    > about how power supplies work.
    >
    > If a single digit load from a USB device causes a power supply to
    > fail, then the power supply was always defective even before that USB
    > peripheral was added.
    >
    > That is the underlying principle - the hypothesis that comes from
    > knowing how electricity and hardware works. How do we turn a
    > hypothesis into fact? Also required is experimental evidence which is
    > why trained technicians understand and use the meter. Since you
    > 'knew' without using a meter, all we have is the only hypothesis that
    > explains your failure.
    >
    > Meanwhile, what is your hypothesis? That a tiny USB load causes a
    > power supply to fail? That hypothesis violates fundamental power
    > supply knowledge and generations of engineering experience. Which one
    > here brings generations of engineering experience?
    >
    > Even more rediculous was the 'HP power supplies are marginal' myth.
    > Also telling is a recommendation for a $35 supply. $35 is typical of
    > power supplies that are missing essential functions. Supplies marketed
    > to computer assemblers who don't have basic electrical knowledge.
    >
    > A 18 November post answers the OP's original problems. It also
    > addresses so numerous ridiculous 'fixes' that might even complicate a
    > solution.



    Give it a rest.

    The only point is that the problem is not fatal. If the power supply is the
    problem, a new one is easy to find and relatively cheap to buy, and will
    have higher ratings than what came in the machine in the first place.

    I happened to buy one for 35-ish dollars, but maybe it takes 50-ish dollars.
    Big deal.
     
    Jeff Strickland, Nov 22, 2008
    #9
  10. <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Nov 21, 10:54 pm, "Jeff Strickland" <> wrote:
    >>> I don't really care. I painted a pictrure of a machine that worked, new

    >> stuff was added and the machine did not work.

    >
    > You painted a picture of a defective power supply booting and
    > running a computer. A system so marginal that adding a 'single digit'
    > watt load was enough to cause complete failure. A defect that could
    > have been measured by a multimeter even when the supply was first
    > installed.
    >
    > Instead you made the classic mistake of assuming. You assumed that
    > because a computer boots, then a power supply is OK. And now you make
    > another mistake by denying your first mistake and fundamental facts
    > about how power supplies work.
    >
    > If a single digit load from a USB device causes a power supply to
    > fail, then the power supply was always defective even before that USB
    > peripheral was added.
    >
    > That is the underlying principle - the hypothesis that comes from
    > knowing how electricity and hardware works. How do we turn a
    > hypothesis into fact? Also required is experimental evidence which is
    > why trained technicians understand and use the meter. Since you
    > 'knew' without using a meter, all we have is the only hypothesis that
    > explains your failure.
    >
    > Meanwhile, what is your hypothesis? That a tiny USB load causes a
    > power supply to fail? That hypothesis violates fundamental power
    > supply knowledge and generations of engineering experience. Which one
    > here brings generations of engineering experience?
    >
    > Even more rediculous was the 'HP power supplies are marginal' myth.
    > Also telling is a recommendation for a $35 supply. $35 is typical of
    > power supplies that are missing essential functions. Supplies marketed
    > to computer assemblers who don't have basic electrical knowledge.
    >
    > A 18 November post answers the OP's original problems. It also
    > addresses so numerous ridiculous 'fixes' that might even complicate a
    > solution.



    I did not have a problem with the USB device per se, I installed a PCI board
    that gave more USB ports, and the machine did not like whatever I did.

    The OP was using a relative heavy-load device -- a DVD Writer -- when he
    discovered that the machine had hung, and would not boot subsequently.

    If the machine appeared to work fine, then a heavy load is started and the
    machine stops working and then fails to boot again, I'd put my money on the
    power supply.

    Just my guess, given the scant information that's been provided.

    You can chase a different solution if you want ...
     
    Jeff Strickland, Nov 22, 2008
    #10
  11. Jeff Strickland

    Guest

    On Nov 22, 11:21 am, "Jeff Strickland" <> wrote:
    > The OP was using a relative heavy-load device -- a DVD Writer -- when he
    > discovered that the machine had hung, and would not boot subsequently.
    >
    > If the machine appeared to work fine, then a heavy load is started and the
    > machine stops working and then fails to boot again, I'd put my money on the
    > power supply.
    > Just my guess, given the scant information that's been provided.


    One should replace parts only on a guess? That is the point. If a
    DVD writer created too much load, then 30 seconds with a multimeter
    identifies that problem long before spending so much time and money on
    a minimally acceptable new supply. And if a new supply is installed,
    the meter is again necessary to confirm that new supply is functional
    and is sufficient for the load. Without the meter, a defective supply
    could still boot a computer. There is no reason to guess when the
    solution is so easy.

    Meter means spending less money, identifying the problem without
    guessing, and confirming that the solution actually does solve the
    problem. All done with less money, less labor, AND faster. Resulting
    numbers also mean the better informed can provide assistance if
    necessary. This is what is meant when the Japanese says, "Don't work
    harder; work smarter."
     
    , Nov 23, 2008
    #11
  12. <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Nov 22, 11:21 am, "Jeff Strickland" <> wrote:
    >> The OP was using a relative heavy-load device -- a DVD Writer -- when he
    >> discovered that the machine had hung, and would not boot subsequently.
    >>
    >> If the machine appeared to work fine, then a heavy load is started and
    >> the
    >> machine stops working and then fails to boot again, I'd put my money on
    >> the
    >> power supply.
    >> Just my guess, given the scant information that's been provided.

    >
    > One should replace parts only on a guess?


    Not at all. One should begin looking for the solution where it might
    actually lay.

    My guess is, the power supply is the place to start looking for answers.
     
    Jeff Strickland, Nov 23, 2008
    #12
  13. Jeff Strickland

    Guest

    On Nov 23, 12:23 pm, "Jeff Strickland" <> wrote:
    > Not at all. One should begin looking for the solution where it might
    > actually lay.


    Which is why one uses a meter in 30 seconds to see the problem ...
    and ignores guesses - also called shotgunning. Guessing even violates
    what the Japanese would say, "Don't work harder; work smarter."
    Guessing is recommended when simple technical knowledge is missing.
     
    , Nov 24, 2008
    #13
  14. <> wrote in message
    news:...
    On Nov 23, 12:23 pm, "Jeff Strickland" <> wrote:
    > Not at all. One should begin looking for the solution where it might
    > actually lay.


    Which is why one uses a meter in 30 seconds to see the problem ...
    and ignores guesses - also called shotgunning. Guessing even violates
    what the Japanese would say, "Don't work harder; work smarter."
    Guessing is recommended when simple technical knowledge is missing.



    <JS>
    When I said, "my guess is the power supply," I assumed you would know that I
    don't actually have anything to check. "Guess" is figurative in that
    sentence, not literal. The OP might want to pull his meter out, or he might
    opt to take the machine down to the corner computer store for repairs. The
    point is, IF the power supply is the problem, the repair cost will be
    relatively low and he should not consider buying a new machine as an
    alternative to fixing this one.

    I happen to have had at least two power supplies fail, and I figured it out
    without getting my meter out. Maybe I' just better at fixing stuff than you,
    or maybe you can't take the educated guesses that I'm able to take.

    Either way, given the OP's symptoms so far, my money is on the power supply.

    CYa ...

    </JS>
     
    Jeff Strickland, Nov 24, 2008
    #14
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