Re: Books..and course materials..

Discussion in 'MCSD' started by UAError, Apr 27, 2004.

  1. UAError

    UAError Guest

    "Vanitha" <> wrote:

    >Hi,
    >
    >I have decided to take the following exams.
    >If any of you have the suggested books(in this site) for these exams, pls let me know. I am ready to buy it.
    >
    >thanks in advance.
    >-Vanitha
    >
    >1. Exam 70-1761,2: Designing and Implementing Desktop Applications with Microsoft Visual Basic® 6.0

    http://www.microsoft.com/learning/exams/70-176.asp
    This exam is scheduled to be discontinued on June 30, 2004.
    >2. Exam 70-1751,2: Designing and Implementing Distributed Applications with Microsoft Visual Basic 6.0

    http://www.microsoft.com/learning/exams/70-175.asp
    This exam is scheduled to be discontinued on June 30, 2004
    >3. Exam 70-1002: Analyzing Requirements and Defining Solution Architectures

    http://www.microsoft.com/learning/exams/70-100.asp
    This exam is scheduled to be discontinued on June 30, 2004
    >4. Exam 70-0292: Designing and Implementing Databases with Microsoft SQL Server 7.0

    http://www.microsoft.com/learning/exams/70-029.asp
    This exam is scheduled to be discontinued on June 30, 2004

    Considering the severe time constraint, do you think this
    course of action is the is the best use of your time and
    money?

    Just thought I'd ask...
     
    UAError, Apr 27, 2004
    #1
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  2. UAError

    Neel Roy Guest

    "UAError" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > "Vanitha" <> wrote:


    > Considering the severe time constraint, do you think this
    > course of action is the is the best use of your time and
    > money?


    I was rethinking about same thing.. I am preparing for VC++ MCSD. But the
    cost , time and mainly trying to learn specifics of something that is no
    longer in use ( for example MTS 2.0 , ATL 2.0 ) makes me think twice.
    Do you know any other way out ?

    Thanks,
    Neel
     
    Neel Roy, Apr 28, 2004
    #2
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  3. UAError

    UAError Guest

    "Neel Roy" <> wrote:

    >"UAError" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> "Vanitha" <> wrote:

    >
    >> Considering the severe time constraint, do you think this
    >> course of action is the is the best use of your time and
    >> money?

    >
    >I was rethinking about same thing.. I am preparing for VC++ MCSD. But the
    >cost , time and mainly trying to learn specifics of something that is no
    >longer in use ( for example MTS 2.0 , ATL 2.0 ) makes me think twice.
    >Do you know any other way out ?
    >
    >Thanks,
    >Neel


    Well, you haven't mentioned what you are trying to achieve
    by attaining the MCSD certification. I can understand that
    some people want to finish as they already had passed some
    exams and for "closure" they need to finish the remaining
    ones.

    But check out the Product Life Cycle dates:

    http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=fh;[ln];LifeDevToolFam

    End of Main Stream Support (VB6.0/VC++6.0):
    (31-Mar-2005 / 30-Sep-2004)
    End of Support (VB6.0/VC++6.0):
    (31-Mar-2008 / 30-Sep-2005)

    If you already have credible experience you shouldn't need
    the certification to get the "Visual Studio 6.0" job done -
    acquiring the breadth needed to pass the exams probably will
    not pay off.

    However the countdown is certainly ticking to capitalize on
    your existing skills and really you should invest in the
    future and not in the past.

    (I wonder what the majority those pre-Y2K Community College
    COBOL programmer grads are doing?)

    So you're currently not working in a .NET environment? Get
    going and get the Amit Kalani Training guides and get the
    MCAD and then the MCSD.NET. Transitioning from VC++ to C#
    should be easy enough - if you need a little help:

    Programming C#, Third Edition
    by Jesse Liberty
    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/0596004893
    http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/progcsharp3/

    If you want to use your freshly acquired .NET skills with
    VC++.NET these might help:

    Managed C++ and .NET Development:
    Visual Studio .NET 2003 Edition
    by Stephen R.G. Fraser
    ISBN: 1590590333
    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1590590333
    http://www.apress.com/book/bookDisplay.html?bID=95

    Programming with Managed Extensions for
    Microsoft Visual C++ .NET
    by Richard Grimes
    ISBN: 0735617821
    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735617821
    http://www.microsoft.com/mspress/books/6191.asp

    Now those with a VB background would tend to gravitate
    towards VB.NET but many sources state that it is (almost) as
    difficult to learn VB.NET with a VB 6 background as it is to
    learn C#.

    In fact programmers who only use VB/VBScript should
    seriously consider C# as they need to diversify their skill
    set - in addition it would give them a clean break from the
    VB 6.0 world and some of its less desirable habits. Once a
    firm footing in C# is obtained, it should take relatively
    little effort to use VB.NET if necessary.

    Chances are that in the future you will be faced with a
    heterogeneous infrastructure especially if you are working
    in a sizable organization - i.e. there are going to be
    non-MS platforms (servers) that will be running Java/J2EE
    technology. Properly learned C# will provide a much better
    foundation for assimilating those incidental Java-skills
    than a foundation of VB.NET with an inappropriate VB 6.0
    slant.

    How can you leverage your existing C++ skills? You need to
    realize that VC++ (especially before VC++7.1) was really
    only treated as "C with classes" - Standard C++ has made
    great strides during the VS 6.0 era, especially when it
    comes to templates (meanwhile VC++ 6.0 used macros where
    templates would have been more appropriate and safer; even
    ATL had to rely heavily on macros because of weak template
    support in VC++ 6.0). So there already exists a significant
    body of C++ knowledge regarding meta-programming (actually
    that is even pre-dated by LISP CLOS in the 1960s) that may
    come in handy when .NET generics become available.

    Maybe XML's success with meta-data will be paralleled by
    Generics and meta-programming.

    For some Standard C++/C++ .NET info you may want to start
    with Herb Sutter's site:

    http://www.gotw.ca/gotw/
    http://www.gotw.ca/microsoft/

    Stuff on Templates

    C++ Templates – The Complete Guide
    David Vandevoorde, Nicolai M. Josuttis
    Addison-Wesley, 2003
    ISBN 0201734842
    http://www.awprofessional.com/title/0201734842
    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201734842

    Modern C++ Design
    Andrei Alexandrescu
    Addison-Wesley, 2001
    ISBN 0201704315
    http://www.awprofessional.com/title/0201704315
    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201704315
    Sample Chapter on "Policy-Based Class design"
    http://www.informit.com/articles/article.asp?p=167842&redir=1
    and related earlier paper on "traits"
    http://moderncppdesign.com/publications/traits.html

    Template metaprograms (1995) by Todd Veldhuizen
    http://extreme.indiana.edu/~tveldhui/papers/Template-Metaprograms/meta-art.html



    An Introduction to C# Generics by Juval Lowy
    http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/d...y/en-us/dv_vstechart/html/csharp_generics.asp
     
    UAError, Apr 29, 2004
    #3
  4. UAError

    Neel Roy Guest

    Hi,

    The reason behind trying to achieve was to MCSD certification to see how
    good I am in VC++.
    Although I did have all the time in the world for last few years neither I
    had resources (financial and otherwise) Now that I could start preparing I
    come to know that exams are to be discontinued at June 30 2004

    I have 5+ years of experience in VC++ in almost majority of areas although
    after going through both books I came to realize that that I have missed few
    (for ex. MTS, MSMQ) Now considering the time frame that I have, I really don
    't know how can prepare for sub-technologies which themselves are so big and
    in case of MTS or they are not used anymore MTS again and ATL 2.0
    Of course there is no shame in hiding that if I want to follow all the books
    / preps material and exam themselves then I am talking 20 grand here.

    By saying 'you should invest in the future and not in the past.' I take it
    that you are talking about VC++ .NET or C# and not VC 6.0 as I can see
    people are really shifting towards these newer technologies.

    Unfortunately I am not working on .NET platform as such but I would like to
    make transfer, since sooner rather than later ! I will have to change to
    ..NET no matter how much I like VC 6.0 and am comfortable with it. One thing
    I was not able to understand is why MCAD first and then MCSD.NET since
    almost all the exams are repeated from MCSD.NET to MCAD. Supposing that I
    can pass MCAD for C# do I get the credit for those exams while doing
    MCSD.NET ?

    One more thing that surprised was that even MFC and ATL 7.0 is released with
    Visual Studio .NET in particular Visual C++ .NET there are no exams for the
    same. This comes really as surprise. Although it is quite understandable
    that MS would want to promote C# and VB.NET more than VC++.NET which would
    use newer version but of same old libraries.

    Your reply was really in detail and I really appreciate your effort and time
    you put into this.

    This will certainly help me make the decision.

    Thanks again,
    Neel


    "UAError" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > "Neel Roy" <> wrote:
    >
    > >"UAError" <> wrote in message
    > >news:...
    > >> "Vanitha" <> wrote:

    > >
    > >> Considering the severe time constraint, do you think this
    > >> course of action is the is the best use of your time and
    > >> money?

    > >
    > >I was rethinking about same thing.. I am preparing for VC++ MCSD. But the
    > >cost , time and mainly trying to learn specifics of something that is no
    > >longer in use ( for example MTS 2.0 , ATL 2.0 ) makes me think twice.
    > >Do you know any other way out ?
    > >
    > >Thanks,
    > >Neel

    >
    > Well, you haven't mentioned what you are trying to achieve
    > by attaining the MCSD certification. I can understand that
    > some people want to finish as they already had passed some
    > exams and for "closure" they need to finish the remaining
    > ones.
    >
    > But check out the Product Life Cycle dates:
    >
    > http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=fh;[ln];LifeDevToolFam
    >
    > End of Main Stream Support (VB6.0/VC++6.0):
    > (31-Mar-2005 / 30-Sep-2004)
    > End of Support (VB6.0/VC++6.0):
    > (31-Mar-2008 / 30-Sep-2005)
    >
    > If you already have credible experience you shouldn't need
    > the certification to get the "Visual Studio 6.0" job done -
    > acquiring the breadth needed to pass the exams probably will
    > not pay off.
    >
    > However the countdown is certainly ticking to capitalize on
    > your existing skills and really you should invest in the
    > future and not in the past.
    >
    > (I wonder what the majority those pre-Y2K Community College
    > COBOL programmer grads are doing?)
    >
    > So you're currently not working in a .NET environment? Get
    > going and get the Amit Kalani Training guides and get the
    > MCAD and then the MCSD.NET. Transitioning from VC++ to C#
    > should be easy enough - if you need a little help:
    >
    > Programming C#, Third Edition
    > by Jesse Liberty
    > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/0596004893
    > http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/progcsharp3/
    >
    > If you want to use your freshly acquired .NET skills with
    > VC++.NET these might help:
    >
    > Managed C++ and .NET Development:
    > Visual Studio .NET 2003 Edition
    > by Stephen R.G. Fraser
    > ISBN: 1590590333
    > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1590590333
    > http://www.apress.com/book/bookDisplay.html?bID=95
    >
    > Programming with Managed Extensions for
    > Microsoft Visual C++ .NET
    > by Richard Grimes
    > ISBN: 0735617821
    > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735617821
    > http://www.microsoft.com/mspress/books/6191.asp
    >
    > Now those with a VB background would tend to gravitate
    > towards VB.NET but many sources state that it is (almost) as
    > difficult to learn VB.NET with a VB 6 background as it is to
    > learn C#.
    >
    > In fact programmers who only use VB/VBScript should
    > seriously consider C# as they need to diversify their skill
    > set - in addition it would give them a clean break from the
    > VB 6.0 world and some of its less desirable habits. Once a
    > firm footing in C# is obtained, it should take relatively
    > little effort to use VB.NET if necessary.
    >
    > Chances are that in the future you will be faced with a
    > heterogeneous infrastructure especially if you are working
    > in a sizable organization - i.e. there are going to be
    > non-MS platforms (servers) that will be running Java/J2EE
    > technology. Properly learned C# will provide a much better
    > foundation for assimilating those incidental Java-skills
    > than a foundation of VB.NET with an inappropriate VB 6.0
    > slant.
    >
    > How can you leverage your existing C++ skills? You need to
    > realize that VC++ (especially before VC++7.1) was really
    > only treated as "C with classes" - Standard C++ has made
    > great strides during the VS 6.0 era, especially when it
    > comes to templates (meanwhile VC++ 6.0 used macros where
    > templates would have been more appropriate and safer; even
    > ATL had to rely heavily on macros because of weak template
    > support in VC++ 6.0). So there already exists a significant
    > body of C++ knowledge regarding meta-programming (actually
    > that is even pre-dated by LISP CLOS in the 1960s) that may
    > come in handy when .NET generics become available.
    >
    > Maybe XML's success with meta-data will be paralleled by
    > Generics and meta-programming.
    >
    > For some Standard C++/C++ .NET info you may want to start
    > with Herb Sutter's site:
    >
    > http://www.gotw.ca/gotw/
    > http://www.gotw.ca/microsoft/
    >
    > Stuff on Templates
    >
    > C++ Templates - The Complete Guide
    > David Vandevoorde, Nicolai M. Josuttis
    > Addison-Wesley, 2003
    > ISBN 0201734842
    > http://www.awprofessional.com/title/0201734842
    > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201734842
    >
    > Modern C++ Design
    > Andrei Alexandrescu
    > Addison-Wesley, 2001
    > ISBN 0201704315
    > http://www.awprofessional.com/title/0201704315
    > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201704315
    > Sample Chapter on "Policy-Based Class design"
    > http://www.informit.com/articles/article.asp?p=167842&redir=1
    > and related earlier paper on "traits"
    > http://moderncppdesign.com/publications/traits.html
    >
    > Template metaprograms (1995) by Todd Veldhuizen
    >

    http://extreme.indiana.edu/~tveldhui/papers/Template-Metaprograms/meta-art.html
    >
    >
    >
    > An Introduction to C# Generics by Juval Lowy
    >

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/d...y/en-us/dv_vstechart/html/csharp_generics.asp
     
    Neel Roy, Apr 29, 2004
    #4
  5. UAError

    UAError Guest

    "Neel Roy" <> wrote:

    >Hi,
    >
    >The reason behind trying to achieve was to MCSD certification to see how
    >good I am in VC++.


    Well it is my impression that the certification tests your
    knowledge of the technologies that can be manipulated
    through VC++ - testing mastery of VC++ (language) itself was
    never an issue. Not that that was a great loss as the VC++
    implementation of C++ was quite poor up until VC++7.0/7.1
    (2002/2003).

    And the .NET certifications continue that tradition - you
    can be barely "literate" in VB.NET/C# as long as you know
    how to manipulate certain aspects of the framework to
    "accomplish" something.

    >Although I did have all the time in the world for last few years neither I
    >had resources (financial and otherwise) Now that I could start preparing I
    >come to know that exams are to be discontinued at June 30 2004


    Well now you can prepare for .NET 1.0/1.1 certification just
    as the .NET 2.0 buzz is getting loud.

    >I have 5+ years of experience in VC++ in almost majority of areas although
    >after going through both books I came to realize that that I have missed few
    >(for ex. MTS, MSMQ) Now considering the time frame that I have, I really don
    >'t know how can prepare for sub-technologies which themselves are so big and
    >in case of MTS or they are not used anymore MTS again and ATL 2.0
    >Of course there is no shame in hiding that if I want to follow all the books
    >/ preps material and exam themselves then I am talking 20 grand here.


    Well, just because you're certified doesn't make you a .NET
    guru either (so no need to read everything). It will cost
    you the exam fees (5 x $125 assuming you pass first go) and
    your prep materials and the Kalani's are a good start. See
    my earlier post:

    http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=

    They are training manuals to teach you how the technology
    works and how it is used - and as a side-effect the exam
    objectives are covered.

    MTS is covered in its current incarnation as "Enterprise
    Services" (your platform will still call it COM+) in
    70-310/320.

    ATL 7.0 isn't tested in the exams. ATL 7.0 deprecates
    ActiveX, and Visible controls but it is retained for the
    sake of COM. COM maintains its importance as it is the
    "gateway" technology to .NET functionality (and your .NET
    components) for non-.NET applications. Oddly enough ATL has
    been joined be ATL-Server to ease the creation of web
    services in C++; but again its not tested by any
    certification.

    >By saying 'you should invest in the future and not in the past.' I take it
    >that you are talking about VC++ .NET or C# and not VC 6.0 as I can see
    >people are really shifting towards these newer technologies.
    >
    >Unfortunately I am not working on .NET platform as such but I would like to
    >make transfer, since sooner rather than later ! I will have to change to
    >.NET no matter how much I like VC 6.0 and am comfortable with it. One thing
    >I was not able to understand is why MCAD first and then MCSD.NET since
    >almost all the exams are repeated from MCSD.NET to MCAD. Supposing that I
    >can pass MCAD for C# do I get the credit for those exams while doing
    >MCSD.NET ?


    Exams may count towards any number of certifications as long
    as the specific certification recognizes that exam as a core
    or elective requirement.

    So if you take 70-229 as an elective then any MCSD.NET exam
    sequence that avoids 70-300 in the first three exams should
    gain you an MCAD after the first three passes.

    >One more thing that surprised was that even MFC and ATL 7.0 is released with
    >Visual Studio .NET in particular Visual C++ .NET there are no exams for the
    >same.


    The MFC version is mainly for current product support so
    that the current developer base gets a bit more time to
    manage their transition - considering VC++6.0 support will
    cease in a year. MS is hoping they will transition to .NET.

    Certain aspects of ATL will remain as long a COM is around -
    but it still is only yet another legacy technology.

    >This comes really as surprise. Although it is quite understandable
    >that MS would want to promote C# and VB.NET more than VC++.NET which would
    >use newer version but of same old libraries.


    To a certain degree the existence of VC++.NET is surprising
    - it has little to do with Standard C++; for the time being
    it remains an option when an algorithm/operation can be
    optimized with pointer operations and it may have an edge
    when interacting with unmanaged APIs (I'm not sure though).

    MS strategy (over the long term) may be to shrink the
    unmanaged SDK API footprint while eventually only offering
    OS services through .NET, making .NET/Windows the ultimate
    virtual machine. That would enable them to shrink the
    non-.NET kernel to a point where moving to a non-Intel
    platform might become attractive again. This transition will
    take some time. Anyone recall how long it took to get rid of
    all the 16-bit code under Win32 (without omitting features,
    supported by its less capable brethen, like WinNT did)?

    So maybe .NET will succeed where HAL didn't.

    >Your reply was really in detail and I really appreciate your effort and time
    >you put into this.
    >
    >This will certainly help me make the decision.
    >
    >Thanks again,
    >Neel
    >
     
    UAError, Apr 29, 2004
    #5
  6. >Well it is my impression that the certification tests your
    >knowledge of the technologies that can be manipulated
    >through VC++ - testing mastery of VC++ (language) itself was
    >never an issue.


    Agreed, and totally mad too.

    >Not that that was a great loss as the VC++
    >implementation of C++ was quite poor up until VC++7.0/7.1
    >(2002/2003).


    Some parts, yes, I would agree; like the MCF when compared to
    Borland's VCL. However the ATL implementation is something to be proud
    of.

    As a side note, I was quite surprised how well the 7.1 compiler came
    out during the tests reported in the recent issue of Dr Dobb's, and
    equally surprised how badly Borland's C++ BuilderX compiler did.....

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
     
    The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere, May 4, 2004
    #6
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