Re: Battery question

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by philo, Oct 15, 2012.

  1. philo

    philo Guest

    On 10/15/2012 4:50 PM, wrote:
    > I'm looking at two digital camers, a Fujifilm FinePix HS30EXR and a FinePix
    > HS25EXR. Almost identical cameras with a few minor (to me anyway) differences.
    > But the big one I'm trying to decide is 4 AA batteris in the FinePix HS25EXR
    > versus am Li-ion battery in the FinePix HS30EXR. My first thought was that the
    > AA batteries would be easy to replace when I needed them, especially if I was on
    > the road. I can easily buy them. Camera supposedly gets 35o shots out of the
    > batteries. The Li-ion supposedly gets 600 shots. But of course, it has to then
    > be recharged, Any thoughts as to which power supply is the better? Thanks.
    >



    I once had a camera that took 4 AA batteries.
    In the long run it was a bad idea as I was constantly replacing them and
    of course paying for them each time. Though the camera could also use
    NiCads, the charge only lasted a very short time so were useless.

    Since then all my camera's have had Li-ion and I am *much* happier.
     
    philo, Oct 15, 2012
    #1
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  2. philo

    nospam Guest

    In article <k5i40b$ech$>, philo <>
    wrote:

    > I once had a camera that took 4 AA batteries.
    > In the long run it was a bad idea as I was constantly replacing them and
    > of course paying for them each time. Though the camera could also use
    > NiCads, the charge only lasted a very short time so were useless.


    nicads haven't been around in ages. you must mean nimh, which work
    quite well.

    alkaline aa batteries, on the other hand, don't work well at all.
     
    nospam, Oct 15, 2012
    #2
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  3. philo

    philo Guest

    On 10/15/2012 5:59 PM, nospam wrote:
    > In article <k5i40b$ech$>, philo <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >> I once had a camera that took 4 AA batteries.
    >> In the long run it was a bad idea as I was constantly replacing them and
    >> of course paying for them each time. Though the camera could also use
    >> NiCads, the charge only lasted a very short time so were useless.

    >
    > nicads haven't been around in ages. you must mean nimh, which work
    > quite well.
    >
    > alkaline aa batteries, on the other hand, don't work well at all.
    >




    Really it was Nicads I was talking about...of course I had that camera
    over ten years ago. I still have it a Kodak 1MP. You can drop it on
    cement and it just bounces!

    I found that alkaline batteries worked well enough but as I said
    you have to keep buying them all the time so in the long run are more
    expensive.
     
    philo, Oct 16, 2012
    #3
  4. philo

    nospam Guest

    In article <k5i6gv$ien$>, philo <>
    wrote:

    > >> I once had a camera that took 4 AA batteries.
    > >> In the long run it was a bad idea as I was constantly replacing them and
    > >> of course paying for them each time. Though the camera could also use
    > >> NiCads, the charge only lasted a very short time so were useless.

    > >
    > > nicads haven't been around in ages. you must mean nimh, which work
    > > quite well.
    > >
    > > alkaline aa batteries, on the other hand, don't work well at all.

    >
    > Really it was Nicads I was talking about...of course I had that camera
    > over ten years ago. I still have it a Kodak 1MP. You can drop it on
    > cement and it just bounces!


    ten years ago is a long time ago, and even then, nimh was the standard.

    > I found that alkaline batteries worked well enough but as I said
    > you have to keep buying them all the time so in the long run are more
    > expensive.


    alkaline batteries don't last very long because of the high current
    demands of a digital camera,

    nimh and lithium aa batteries can source a lot more current and work a
    *lot* better. lithium aa batteries are not that cheap but their shelf
    life is 10 years or more and make for an excellent backup for when the
    rechargeables are exhausted.
     
    nospam, Oct 16, 2012
    #4
  5. philo

    philo Guest

    On 10/15/2012 6:49 PM, nospam wrote:
    > In article <k5i6gv$ien$>, philo <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >>>> I once had a camera that took 4 AA batteries.
    >>>> In the long run it was a bad idea as I was constantly replacing them and
    >>>> of course paying for them each time. Though the camera could also use
    >>>> NiCads, the charge only lasted a very short time so were useless.
    >>>
    >>> nicads haven't been around in ages. you must mean nimh, which work
    >>> quite well.
    >>>
    >>> alkaline aa batteries, on the other hand, don't work well at all.

    >>
    >> Really it was Nicads I was talking about...of course I had that camera
    >> over ten years ago. I still have it a Kodak 1MP. You can drop it on
    >> cement and it just bounces!

    >
    > ten years ago is a long time ago, and even then, nimh was the standard.
    >
    >> I found that alkaline batteries worked well enough but as I said
    >> you have to keep buying them all the time so in the long run are more
    >> expensive.

    >
    > alkaline batteries don't last very long because of the high current
    > demands of a digital camera,


    Plus they have a nominal voltage of only 1.2 v
    >
    > nimh and lithium aa batteries can source a lot more current and work a
    > *lot* better. lithium aa batteries are not that cheap but their shelf
    > life is 10 years or more and make for an excellent backup for when the
    > rechargeables are exhausted.
    >


    Yep
     
    philo, Oct 16, 2012
    #5
  6. philo

    nospam Guest

    In article <k5i7o0$l59$>, philo <>
    wrote:

    > >> I found that alkaline batteries worked well enough but as I said
    > >> you have to keep buying them all the time so in the long run are more
    > >> expensive.

    > >
    > > alkaline batteries don't last very long because of the high current
    > > demands of a digital camera,

    >
    > Plus they have a nominal voltage of only 1.2 v


    alkaline batteries are 1.5v when new. nicad and nimh batteries are 1.2v
    when fully charged. the difference almost always does not matter.
     
    nospam, Oct 16, 2012
    #6
  7. philo

    philo Guest

    On 10/15/2012 7:07 PM, nospam wrote:
    > In article <k5i7o0$l59$>, philo <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >>>> I found that alkaline batteries worked well enough but as I said
    >>>> you have to keep buying them all the time so in the long run are more
    >>>> expensive.
    >>>
    >>> alkaline batteries don't last very long because of the high current
    >>> demands of a digital camera,

    >>
    >> Plus they have a nominal voltage of only 1.2 v

    >
    > alkaline batteries are 1.5v when new. nicad and nimh batteries are 1.2v
    > when fully charged. the difference almost always does not matter.
    >




    Believe me it does.
    The camera I had would not function under 4.5 volts or so
     
    philo, Oct 16, 2012
    #7
  8. philo

    nospam Guest

    In article <k5i9g6$olm$>, philo <>
    wrote:

    > >>>> I found that alkaline batteries worked well enough but as I said
    > >>>> you have to keep buying them all the time so in the long run are more
    > >>>> expensive.
    > >>>
    > >>> alkaline batteries don't last very long because of the high current
    > >>> demands of a digital camera,
    > >>
    > >> Plus they have a nominal voltage of only 1.2 v

    > >
    > > alkaline batteries are 1.5v when new. nicad and nimh batteries are 1.2v
    > > when fully charged. the difference almost always does not matter.

    >
    > Believe me it does.
    > The camera I had would not function under 4.5 volts or so


    4x 1.2v nimh = 4.8v, so even with nimh, it should still have worked.

    nevertheless, i said 'almost always'. yours was one of the few devices
    where may have mattered. nearly all devices work just fine with nimh.
     
    nospam, Oct 16, 2012
    #8
  9. philo

    philo Guest

    On 10/15/2012 7:27 PM, nospam wrote:
    > In article <k5i9g6$olm$>, philo <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >>>>>> I found that alkaline batteries worked well enough but as I said
    >>>>>> you have to keep buying them all the time so in the long run are more
    >>>>>> expensive.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> alkaline batteries don't last very long because of the high current
    >>>>> demands of a digital camera,
    >>>>
    >>>> Plus they have a nominal voltage of only 1.2 v
    >>>
    >>> alkaline batteries are 1.5v when new. nicad and nimh batteries are 1.2v
    >>> when fully charged. the difference almost always does not matter.

    >>
    >> Believe me it does.
    >> The camera I had would not function under 4.5 volts or so

    >
    > 4x 1.2v nimh = 4.8v, so even with nimh, it should still have worked.
    >
    > nevertheless, i said 'almost always'. yours was one of the few devices
    > where may have mattered. nearly all devices work just fine with nimh.
    >



    Something went wrong here I was talking about Nicads not nimh

    At any rate, with an Alkaline battery the staring voltage would be 6
    volts. It would take a while before the voltage would go down to 4.5 v

    With a set of Nicad batteries it did not take too long to go from 4.8 v
    to 4.5 volts totally unacceptable life
     
    philo, Oct 16, 2012
    #9
  10. philo

    nospam Guest

    In article <k5icb2$tct$>, philo <>
    wrote:

    > >>>>>> I found that alkaline batteries worked well enough but as I said
    > >>>>>> you have to keep buying them all the time so in the long run are more
    > >>>>>> expensive.
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>> alkaline batteries don't last very long because of the high current
    > >>>>> demands of a digital camera,
    > >>>>
    > >>>> Plus they have a nominal voltage of only 1.2 v
    > >>>
    > >>> alkaline batteries are 1.5v when new. nicad and nimh batteries are 1.2v
    > >>> when fully charged. the difference almost always does not matter.
    > >>
    > >> Believe me it does.
    > >> The camera I had would not function under 4.5 volts or so

    > >
    > > 4x 1.2v nimh = 4.8v, so even with nimh, it should still have worked.
    > >
    > > nevertheless, i said 'almost always'. yours was one of the few devices
    > > where may have mattered. nearly all devices work just fine with nimh.

    >
    > Something went wrong here I was talking about Nicads not nimh


    they're both 1.2v.

    > At any rate, with an Alkaline battery the staring voltage would be 6
    > volts. It would take a while before the voltage would go down to 4.5 v


    not that long, depending on load.

    > With a set of Nicad batteries it did not take too long to go from 4.8 v
    > to 4.5 volts totally unacceptable life


    the discharge curve for nicad/nimh is flatter than alkaline and 4.5v =
    1.12v/cell which is nearly discharged.

    <http://www.greenbatteries.com/nibafa.html>

    Yes, for most high drain electronic applications NiMH batteries are
    ideal substitutes and you needn't worry about the apparent voltage
    differences.  Even though alkaline batteries are rated at a nominal
    1.5 volts, they only deliver 1.5 volts when they are fully charged. 
    As they begin to discharge the voltage of alkaline batteries
    continuously drops.  In fact, over the course of their discharge,
    alkaline batteries actually average about 1.2 volts.  That's very
    close to the 1.2 volts of a NiMH battery. The main difference is that
    an alkaline battery starts at 1.5 volts and gradually drops to less
    than 1.0 volts.  NiMH batteries stay at about 1.2 volts for most of
    their discharge cycle.

    ...And keep in mind that the alkaline battery only has a higher
    voltage when it is fully charged.  Once it gets to 50% capacity or
    less, it will be delivering a lower voltage than a NiMH battery.
     
    nospam, Oct 16, 2012
    #10
  11. philo

    gregz Guest

    nospam <> wrote:
    > In article <k5i6gv$ien$>, philo <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >>>> I once had a camera that took 4 AA batteries.
    >>>> In the long run it was a bad idea as I was constantly replacing them and
    >>>> of course paying for them each time. Though the camera could also use
    >>>> NiCads, the charge only lasted a very short time so were useless.
    >>>
    >>> nicads haven't been around in ages. you must mean nimh, which work
    >>> quite well.
    >>>
    >>> alkaline aa batteries, on the other hand, don't work well at all.

    >>
    >> Really it was Nicads I was talking about...of course I had that camera
    >> over ten years ago. I still have it a Kodak 1MP. You can drop it on
    >> cement and it just bounces!

    >
    > ten years ago is a long time ago, and even then, nimh was the standard.
    >
    >> I found that alkaline batteries worked well enough but as I said
    >> you have to keep buying them all the time so in the long run are more
    >> expensive.

    >
    > alkaline batteries don't last very long because of the high current
    > demands of a digital camera,
    >
    > nimh and lithium aa batteries can source a lot more current and work a
    > *lot* better. lithium aa batteries are not that cheap but their shelf
    > life is 10 years or more and make for an excellent backup for when the
    > rechargeables are exhausted.


    Nicads can offer more current output than nimh, unless things have changed
    in the last 10 years.

    Greg
     
    gregz, Oct 16, 2012
    #11
  12. philo

    gregz Guest

    philo <> wrote:
    > On 10/15/2012 6:49 PM, nospam wrote:
    >> In article <k5i6gv$ien$>, philo <>
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >>>>> I once had a camera that took 4 AA batteries.
    >>>>> In the long run it was a bad idea as I was constantly replacing them and
    >>>>> of course paying for them each time. Though the camera could also use
    >>>>> NiCads, the charge only lasted a very short time so were useless.
    >>>>
    >>>> nicads haven't been around in ages. you must mean nimh, which work
    >>>> quite well.
    >>>>
    >>>> alkaline aa batteries, on the other hand, don't work well at all.
    >>>
    >>> Really it was Nicads I was talking about...of course I had that camera
    >>> over ten years ago. I still have it a Kodak 1MP. You can drop it on
    >>> cement and it just bounces!

    >>
    >> ten years ago is a long time ago, and even then, nimh was the standard.
    >>
    >>> I found that alkaline batteries worked well enough but as I said
    >>> you have to keep buying them all the time so in the long run are more
    >>> expensive.

    >>
    >> alkaline batteries don't last very long because of the high current
    >> demands of a digital camera,

    >
    > Plus they have a nominal voltage of only 1.2 v
    >>


    More like 1.5 volts.

    Greg

    >> nimh and lithium aa batteries can source a lot more current and work a
    >> *lot* better. lithium aa batteries are not that cheap but their shelf
    >> life is 10 years or more and make for an excellent backup for when the
    >> rechargeables are exhausted.
    >>

    >
    > Yep
     
    gregz, Oct 16, 2012
    #12
  13. philo

    jdanield Guest

    Le 16/10/2012 02:07, nospam a écrit :

    > alkaline batteries are 1.5v when new. nicad and nimh batteries are 1.2v
    > when fully charged. the difference almost always does not matter.
    >

    It can matter a lot. I had once device that didn't work at all with
    rechargeables

    right today, Shure pro mikes do not accept 9V rechargeables

    jdd
     
    jdanield, Oct 16, 2012
    #13
  14. philo

    philo Guest

    On 10/15/2012 08:31 PM, nospam wrote:
    > In article <k5icb2$tct$>, philo <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >>>>>>>> I found that alkaline batteries worked well enough but as I said
    >>>>>>>> you have to keep buying them all the time so in the long run are more
    >>>>>>>> expensive.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> alkaline batteries don't last very long because of the high current
    >>>>>>> demands of a digital camera,
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Plus they have a nominal voltage of only 1.2 v
    >>>>>
    >>>>> alkaline batteries are 1.5v when new. nicad and nimh batteries are 1.2v
    >>>>> when fully charged. the difference almost always does not matter.
    >>>>
    >>>> Believe me it does.
    >>>> The camera I had would not function under 4.5 volts or so
    >>>
    >>> 4x 1.2v nimh = 4.8v, so even with nimh, it should still have worked.
    >>>
    >>> nevertheless, i said 'almost always'. yours was one of the few devices
    >>> where may have mattered. nearly all devices work just fine with nimh.

    >>
    >> Something went wrong here I was talking about Nicads not nimh

    >
    > they're both 1.2v.
    >
    >> At any rate, with an Alkaline battery the staring voltage would be 6
    >> volts. It would take a while before the voltage would go down to 4.5 v

    >
    > not that long, depending on load.
    >
    >> With a set of Nicad batteries it did not take too long to go from 4.8 v
    >> to 4.5 volts totally unacceptable life

    >
    > the discharge curve for nicad/nimh is flatter than alkaline and 4.5v =
    > 1.12v/cell which is nearly discharged.
    >


    <snipped for brevity>

    Discharge curves aside I am going by empirical results.

    In my camera I could get a minimum of 20 photo shoots on a set of
    alkaline batteries. With Nicads I could not necessarily even get through
    one photo shoot.

    I have some 12v equipment that has dummy/jumper batteries to be used
    as the battery compartment takes either 8 alkaline or 10 nicads


    --
    https://www.createspace.com/3707686
     
    philo, Oct 16, 2012
    #14
  15. philo

    nospam Guest

    In article <k5j109$rjj$>, jdanield <> wrote:

    > > alkaline batteries are 1.5v when new. nicad and nimh batteries are 1.2v
    > > when fully charged. the difference almost always does not matter.
    > >

    > It can matter a lot. I had once device that didn't work at all with
    > rechargeables


    there is always an exception. as i said, it normally does not matter.

    > right today, Shure pro mikes do not accept 9V rechargeables


    a 9v rechargeable will be 7.2v, which is a big difference.
     
    nospam, Oct 16, 2012
    #15
  16. philo

    nospam Guest

    In article <k5jvj1$kp3$>, philo <>
    wrote:

    > Discharge curves aside I am going by empirical results.


    your results can't change the battery chemistry.

    > In my camera I could get a minimum of 20 photo shoots on a set of
    > alkaline batteries.


    you must mean 20 photos. alkaline batteries can't source enough current
    to last very long in a digital camera. they're usually drained in a
    very short time. they work well for low current applications, such as
    radios, and in fact, once they're exhausted in a camera, you can put
    them in a radio and continue to use them for quite a while.

    > With Nicads I could not necessarily even get through
    > one photo shoot.


    then they're defective, which is not surprising since nimh replaced
    nicads long ago. it's time to safely get rid of your nicads and replace
    them with nimh.

    > I have some 12v equipment that has dummy/jumper batteries to be used
    > as the battery compartment takes either 8 alkaline or 10 nicads


    8 alkalines = 12v
    8 nicads = 9.6v; 10 nicads = 12v

    9.6v versus 12v might make a difference, thus the additional 2
    batteries to make it 12v.

    most devices take 2 or 4 batteries, and the difference in voltage does
    not matter.
     
    nospam, Oct 16, 2012
    #16
  17. philo

    philo Guest

    On 10/16/2012 11:23 AM, nospam wrote:
    > In article <k5jvj1$kp3$>, philo <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >> Discharge curves aside I am going by empirical results.

    >
    > your results can't change the battery chemistry.
    >
    >> In my camera I could get a minimum of 20 photo shoots on a set of
    >> alkaline batteries.

    >
    > you must mean 20 photos. alkaline batteries can't source enough current
    > to last very long in a digital camera. they're usually drained in a
    > very short time. they work well for low current applications, such as
    > radios, and in fact, once they're exhausted in a camera, you can put
    > them in a radio and continue to use them for quite a while.
    >
    >> W





    You are thinking of those (I believe now obsolete) standard carbon
    batteries. I am talking about alkaline batteries.

    Depending on the mfg they are approx the same ampere-hour as a nicad
    though there is quite a bit of variance.


    If two batteries have about the same amp-hour
    it does not take a genius to know the ones that have a higher voltage
    will produce more power
     
    philo, Oct 17, 2012
    #17
  18. philo

    nospam Guest

    In article <k5koth$m5l$>, philo <>
    wrote:

    > >> Discharge curves aside I am going by empirical results.

    > >
    > > your results can't change the battery chemistry.
    > >
    > >> In my camera I could get a minimum of 20 photo shoots on a set of
    > >> alkaline batteries.

    > >
    > > you must mean 20 photos. alkaline batteries can't source enough current
    > > to last very long in a digital camera. they're usually drained in a
    > > very short time. they work well for low current applications, such as
    > > radios, and in fact, once they're exhausted in a camera, you can put
    > > them in a radio and continue to use them for quite a while.

    >
    > You are thinking of those (I believe now obsolete) standard carbon
    > batteries.


    nope.

    > I am talking about alkaline batteries.


    so am i. in fact, i specifically said alkaline.

    > Depending on the mfg they are approx the same ampere-hour as a nicad
    > though there is quite a bit of variance.


    alkaline batteries actually have much higher capacity than nicad and
    they're comparable or a little higher than nimh, but as i said, they
    can only realize that capacity at lower current draws. in a camera,
    where current draw is high, alkaline won't last long, but in a radio,
    where current draw is very low, alkaline will last quite a while.

    > If two batteries have about the same amp-hour
    > it does not take a genius to know the ones that have a higher voltage
    > will produce more power


    apparently it does, because the battery chemistry and specifically, its
    internal resistance, makes a big difference.

    <http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/rising_internal_resistance>
    Alkaline, carbon-zinc and other primary batteries have a relatively
    high internal resistance, and this limits its use to low-current
    applications such as flashlights, remote controls, portable
    entertainment devices and kitchen clocks. As these batteries
    discharge, the resistance increases further. This explains the
    relative short runtime when using alkaline cells in digital cameras. 
     
    nospam, Oct 17, 2012
    #18
  19. philo

    philo Guest

    On 10/16/2012 06:37 PM, nospam wrote:
    > In article <k5koth$m5l$>, philo <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >>>> Discharge curves aside I am going by empirical results.
    >>>
    >>> your results can't change the battery chemistry.
    >>>
    >>>> In my camera I could get a minimum of 20 photo shoots on a set of
    >>>> alkaline batteries.
    >>>
    >>> you must mean 20 photos. alkaline batteries can't source enough current
    >>> to last very long in a digital camera. they're usually drained in a
    >>> very short time. they work well for low current applications, such as
    >>> radios, and in fact, once they're exhausted in a camera, you can put
    >>> them in a radio and continue to use them for quite a while.

    >>
    >> You are thinking of those (I believe now obsolete) standard carbon
    >> batteries.

    >
    > nope.
    >
    >> I am talking about alkaline batteries.

    >
    > so am i. in fact, i specifically said alkaline.
    >
    >> Depending on the mfg they are approx the same ampere-hour as a nicad
    >> though there is quite a bit of variance.

    >
    > alkaline batteries actually have much higher capacity than nicad and
    > they're comparable or a little higher than nimh, but as i said, they
    > can only realize that capacity at lower current draws. in a camera,
    > where current draw is high, alkaline won't last long, but in a radio,
    > where current draw is very low, alkaline will last quite a while.
    >
    >> If two batteries have about the same amp-hour
    >> it does not take a genius to know the ones that have a higher voltage
    >> will produce more power

    >
    > apparently it does, because the battery chemistry and specifically, its
    > internal resistance, makes a big difference.
    >
    > <http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/rising_internal_resistance>
    > Alkaline, carbon-zinc and other primary batteries have a relatively
    > high internal resistance, and this limits its use to low-current
    > applications such as flashlights, remote controls, portable
    > entertainment devices and kitchen clocks. As these batteries
    > discharge, the resistance increases further. This explains the
    > relative short runtime when using alkaline cells in digital cameras.
    >



    Nice quote but I still live by what happens in the real world

    --
    https://www.createspace.com/3707686
     
    philo, Oct 17, 2012
    #19
  20. philo

    nospam Guest

    In article <k5l7lb$gnm$>, philo <>
    wrote:

    > > <http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/rising_internal_resistance>
    > > Alkaline, carbon-zinc and other primary batteries have a relatively
    > > high internal resistance, and this limits its use to low-current
    > > applications such as flashlights, remote controls, portable
    > > entertainment devices and kitchen clocks. As these batteries
    > > discharge, the resistance increases further. This explains the
    > > relative short runtime when using alkaline cells in digital cameras.
    > >

    > Nice quote but I still live by what happens in the real world


    what happens in the real world is exactly that quote. you *can't* get
    around the laws of physics and chemistry.

    replace your defective nicads with modern nimh batteries.
     
    nospam, Oct 17, 2012
    #20
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