Re: Another Photo-Journalist added to the roll of honor.

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Rich, Jan 29, 2011.

  1. Rich

    Rich Guest

    On Jan 28, 4:39 pm, Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
    > French photo-journalist Lucas Mebrouk Dolega 32, dies after being hit
    > in the head by a police fired tear gas grenade in Tunis while covering
    > the disturbances in Tunis for Paris Match.
    > <http://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/27/parting-glance-lucas-mebrouk...
    >
    >
    >
    > --
    > Regards,
    >
    > Savageduck


    Maybe like hockey players did, one day they'll finally start wearing
    protective helmets during riots in violent, Third World ratholes?
    Even a bike helmet would have saved the guy.
     
    Rich, Jan 29, 2011
    #1
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  2. On 1/28/2011 10:56 PM Rich spake thus:

    > On Jan 28, 4:39 pm, Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com>
    > wrote:
    >
    >> French photo-journalist Lucas Mebrouk Dolega 32, dies after being
    >> hit in the head by a police fired tear gas grenade in Tunis while
    >> covering the disturbances in Tunis for Paris Match.
    >> <http://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/27/parting-glance-lucas-mebrouk...

    >
    > Maybe like hockey players did, one day they'll finally start wearing
    > protective helmets during riots in violent, Third World ratholes?
    > Even a bike helmet would have saved the guy.


    I'm sure Tunisians would love to hear their country referred to that way
    .... but of course, who cares about them? Their lives aren't worth as
    much as ours are.


    --
    Comment on quaint Usenet customs, from Usenet:

    To me, the *plonk...* reminds me of the old man at the public hearing
    who stands to make his point, then removes his hearing aid as a sign
    that he is not going to hear any rebuttals.
     
    David Nebenzahl, Jan 29, 2011
    #2
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  3. Rich

    peter Guest

    On 1/29/2011 1:56 AM, Rich wrote:
    > On Jan 28, 4:39 pm, Savageduck<savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
    >> French photo-journalist Lucas Mebrouk Dolega 32, dies after being hit
    >> in the head by a police fired tear gas grenade in Tunis while covering
    >> the disturbances in Tunis for Paris Match.
    >> <http://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/27/parting-glance-lucas-mebrouk...
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> --
    >> Regards,
    >>
    >> Savageduck

    >
    > Maybe like hockey players did, one day they'll finally start wearing
    > protective helmets during riots in violent, Third World ratholes?
    > Even a bike helmet would have saved the guy.


    Typical comment from you. Why don't you volunteer to go. Make sure you
    wear your bicycle helmet.

    BTW did you start your economics courses?

    --
    Peter
     
    peter, Jan 29, 2011
    #3
  4. On 1/29/2011 6:41 AM Bowser spake thus:

    > On 1/29/2011 3:10 AM, David Nebenzahl wrote:
    >
    >> On 1/28/2011 10:56 PM Rich spake thus:
    >>
    >>> On Jan 28, 4:39 pm, Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com>
    >>> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> French photo-journalist Lucas Mebrouk Dolega 32, dies after
    >>>> being hit in the head by a police fired tear gas grenade in
    >>>> Tunis while covering the disturbances in Tunis for Paris Match.
    >>>>
    >>>> <http://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/27/parting-glance-lucas-mebrouk...
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>> Maybe like hockey players did, one day they'll finally start
    >>> wearing protective helmets during riots in violent, Third World
    >>> ratholes? Even a bike helmet would have saved the guy.

    >>
    >> I'm sure Tunisians would love to hear their country referred to
    >> that way ... but of course, who cares about them? Their lives
    >> aren't worth as much as ours are.

    >
    > That's true. But what's the exchange rate?


    Pretty easily calculated, using news stories in the MSM and their
    relative ranking (i.e., page placement in the newspaper, etc.).

    I figure it's somewhere in the neighborhood of 50:1 to 100:1.


    --
    Comment on quaint Usenet customs, from Usenet:

    To me, the *plonk...* reminds me of the old man at the public hearing
    who stands to make his point, then removes his hearing aid as a sign
    that he is not going to hear any rebuttals.
     
    David Nebenzahl, Jan 29, 2011
    #4
  5. Rich

    peter Guest

    On 1/29/2011 3:49 PM, Savageduck wrote:

    >
    > As of 09:45AM, 1/29/2011, 1.41 Tunisian Dinar = $1US = €0.74
    > (...er, there's an Ap for that)
    >
    > So your wide range guesstimate was not too close.
    >


    You remind me about the Chinese guy in San Francisco who pays for
    everything with yuan. He reviewed his hotel bill.
    The first day his lunch cost 100 yuan.
    On the second day 110 yuan and on the third, 120 yuan.

    He asked why the price was different even though he had the same thing
    every day. the manager looked at the bill and said "fluctuations.

    the Chinese guy said: "fluck you Amelicans."



    --
    Peter
     
    peter, Jan 29, 2011
    #5
  6. On 1/29/2011 12:49 PM Savageduck spake thus:

    > On 2011-01-29 11:09:09 -0800, David Nebenzahl <> said:
    >
    >> On 1/29/2011 6:41 AM Bowser spake thus:
    >>
    >>> On 1/29/2011 3:10 AM, David Nebenzahl wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> On 1/28/2011 10:56 PM Rich spake thus:
    >>>>
    >>>>> On Jan 28, 4:39 pm, Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> French photo-journalist Lucas Mebrouk Dolega 32, dies after
    >>>>>> being hit in the head by a police fired tear gas grenade in
    >>>>>> Tunis while covering the disturbances in Tunis for Paris Match.
    >>>>>> <http://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/27/parting-glance-lucas-mebrouk...
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Maybe like hockey players did, one day they'll finally start
    >>>>> wearing protective helmets during riots in violent, Third World
    >>>>> ratholes? Even a bike helmet would have saved the guy.
    >>>>
    >>>> I'm sure Tunisians would love to hear their country referred to
    >>>> that way ... but of course, who cares about them? Their lives
    >>>> aren't worth as much as ours are.
    >>>
    >>> That's true. But what's the exchange rate?

    >>
    >> Pretty easily calculated, using news stories in the MSM and their
    >> relative ranking (i.e., page placement in the newspaper, etc.).
    >>
    >> I figure it's somewhere in the neighborhood of 50:1 to 100:1.

    >
    > As of 09:45AM, 1/29/2011, 1.41 Tunisian Dinar = $1US = €0.74
    > (...er, there's an Ap for that)
    >
    > So your wide range guesstimate was not too close.


    So what does the currency exchange rate have to do with it? I think you
    may have missed my point here, which is the "value" of human life.


    --
    Comment on quaint Usenet customs, from Usenet:

    To me, the *plonk...* reminds me of the old man at the public hearing
    who stands to make his point, then removes his hearing aid as a sign
    that he is not going to hear any rebuttals.
     
    David Nebenzahl, Jan 30, 2011
    #6
  7. Rich

    tony cooper Guest

    On Sat, 29 Jan 2011 14:27:32 -0800, Savageduck
    <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

    >On 2011-01-29 13:33:05 -0800, Alan Browne
    ><> said:
    >
    >> On 2011.01.29 13:00 , Savageduck wrote:
    >>> On 2011-01-29 08:56:48 -0800, Alfred Molon <> said:
    >>>
    >>>> There was an Iraq war video on wikileaks showing a US helicopter
    >>>> machine-gunning an AP photographer in Bahgdad. Apparently the guy on the
    >>>> helicopter mistook the camera of the photographer as an RPG device.
    >>>
    >>> Not nearly as bad as US Air Force F4 fighters strafing two US Coast

    >>
    >> The Iraq footage is much worse than that event. Non combatants were
    >> killed. It was one of the most disgusting displays of callousness I've
    >> ever seen.

    >
    >Worse is subjective.


    Me, I'm wondering how they tell the "non-combatants" from the suicide
    bombers. I guess if you check the body and don't find an explosive
    vest under the civilian clothes, it's a non-combatant. Or, if it's a
    civilian who has already planted and covered up an IED he or she
    reverts to non-combatant status.

    The suicide bomber who killed 52 Iraqis in Tikrit in January managed
    to leave a pretty disgusting display of callousness.
    --
    Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
     
    tony cooper, Jan 30, 2011
    #7
  8. On 1/29/2011 5:51 PM Savageduck spake thus:

    > On 2011-01-29 17:01:13 -0800, David Nebenzahl <> said:
    >
    >> On 1/29/2011 12:49 PM Savageduck spake thus:
    >>
    >>> On 2011-01-29 11:09:09 -0800, David Nebenzahl <> said:
    >>>
    >>>> On 1/29/2011 6:41 AM Bowser spake thus:
    >>>>
    >>>>> On 1/29/2011 3:10 AM, David Nebenzahl wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> On 1/28/2011 10:56 PM Rich spake thus:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>> On Jan 28, 4:39 pm, Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> French photo-journalist Lucas Mebrouk Dolega 32, dies after
    >>>>>>>> being hit in the head by a police fired tear gas grenade in
    >>>>>>>> Tunis while covering the disturbances in Tunis for Paris Match.
    >>>>>>>> <http://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/27/parting-glance-lucas-mebrouk...
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Maybe like hockey players did, one day they'll finally start
    >>>>>>> wearing protective helmets during riots in violent, Third World
    >>>>>>> ratholes? Even a bike helmet would have saved the guy.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> I'm sure Tunisians would love to hear their country referred to
    >>>>>> that way ... but of course, who cares about them? Their lives
    >>>>>> aren't worth as much as ours are.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> That's true. But what's the exchange rate?
    >>>>
    >>>> Pretty easily calculated, using news stories in the MSM and their
    >>>> relative ranking (i.e., page placement in the newspaper, etc.).
    >>>>
    >>>> I figure it's somewhere in the neighborhood of 50:1 to 100:1.
    >>>
    >>> As of 09:45AM, 1/29/2011, 1.41 Tunisian Dinar = $1US = €0.74
    >>> (...er, there's an Ap for that)
    >>>
    >>> So your wide range guesstimate was not too close.

    >>
    >> So what does the currency exchange rate have to do with it? I think you
    >> may have missed my point here, which is the "value" of human life.

    >
    > For me still 1:1.


    Again, you miss my point.

    For me it's 1:1 too. But that's not the conclusion any Martian would
    come to if they were to come down to Earth and observe the relative
    worth placed on American lives and non-American lives in the US.
    Evidence? Just watch the news or read a newspaper ...


    --
    Comment on quaint Usenet customs, from Usenet:

    To me, the *plonk...* reminds me of the old man at the public hearing
    who stands to make his point, then removes his hearing aid as a sign
    that he is not going to hear any rebuttals.
     
    David Nebenzahl, Jan 30, 2011
    #8
  9. Rich

    Robert Coe Guest

    On Sat, 29 Jan 2011 19:28:27 -0800, David Nebenzahl <>
    wrote:
    : On 1/29/2011 5:51 PM Savageduck spake thus:
    :
    : > On 2011-01-29 17:01:13 -0800, David Nebenzahl <> said:
    : >
    : >> On 1/29/2011 12:49 PM Savageduck spake thus:
    : >>
    : >>> On 2011-01-29 11:09:09 -0800, David Nebenzahl <> said:
    : >>>
    : >>>> On 1/29/2011 6:41 AM Bowser spake thus:
    : >>>>
    : >>>>> On 1/29/2011 3:10 AM, David Nebenzahl wrote:
    : >>>>>
    : >>>>>> On 1/28/2011 10:56 PM Rich spake thus:
    : >>>>>>
    : >>>>>>> On Jan 28, 4:39 pm, Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
    : >>>>>>>
    : >>>>>>>> French photo-journalist Lucas Mebrouk Dolega 32, dies after
    : >>>>>>>> being hit in the head by a police fired tear gas grenade in
    : >>>>>>>> Tunis while covering the disturbances in Tunis for Paris Match.
    : >>>>>>>> <http://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/27/parting-glance-lucas-mebrouk...
    : >>>>>>>
    : >>>>>>> Maybe like hockey players did, one day they'll finally start
    : >>>>>>> wearing protective helmets during riots in violent, Third World
    : >>>>>>> ratholes? Even a bike helmet would have saved the guy.
    : >>>>>>
    : >>>>>> I'm sure Tunisians would love to hear their country referred to
    : >>>>>> that way ... but of course, who cares about them? Their lives
    : >>>>>> aren't worth as much as ours are.
    : >>>>>
    : >>>>> That's true. But what's the exchange rate?
    : >>>>
    : >>>> Pretty easily calculated, using news stories in the MSM and their
    : >>>> relative ranking (i.e., page placement in the newspaper, etc.).
    : >>>>
    : >>>> I figure it's somewhere in the neighborhood of 50:1 to 100:1.
    : >>>
    : >>> As of 09:45AM, 1/29/2011, 1.41 Tunisian Dinar = $1US = €0.74
    : >>> (...er, there's an Ap for that)
    : >>>
    : >>> So your wide range guesstimate was not too close.
    : >>
    : >> So what does the currency exchange rate have to do with it? I think you
    : >> may have missed my point here, which is the "value" of human life.
    : >
    : > For me still 1:1.
    :
    : Again, you miss my point.
    :
    : For me it's 1:1 too. But that's not the conclusion any Martian would
    : come to if they were to come down to Earth and observe the relative
    : worth placed on American lives and non-American lives in the US.
    : Evidence? Just watch the news or read a newspaper ...

    Actually, I'd bet money that I watch the news and read a newspaper just as
    much as you do. And I think you're full of shit.

    Bob
     
    Robert Coe, Jan 30, 2011
    #9
  10. Rich

    tony cooper Guest

    On Sat, 29 Jan 2011 20:18:56 -0800, Savageduck
    <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

    >On 2011-01-29 19:28:27 -0800, David Nebenzahl <> said:
    >
    >> On 1/29/2011 5:51 PM Savageduck spake thus:
    >>
    >>> On 2011-01-29 17:01:13 -0800, David Nebenzahl <> said:
    >>>
    >>>> On 1/29/2011 12:49 PM Savageduck spake thus:
    >>>>
    >>>>> On 2011-01-29 11:09:09 -0800, David Nebenzahl <> said:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> On 1/29/2011 6:41 AM Bowser spake thus:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>> On 1/29/2011 3:10 AM, David Nebenzahl wrote:
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> On 1/28/2011 10:56 PM Rich spake thus:
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> On Jan 28, 4:39 pm, Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> French photo-journalist Lucas Mebrouk Dolega 32, dies after
    >>>>>>>>>> being hit in the head by a police fired tear gas grenade in
    >>>>>>>>>> Tunis while covering the disturbances in Tunis for Paris Match.
    >>>>>>>>>> <http://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/27/parting-glance-lucas-mebrouk...
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> Maybe like hockey players did, one day they'll finally start
    >>>>>>>>> wearing protective helmets during riots in violent, Third World
    >>>>>>>>> ratholes? Even a bike helmet would have saved the guy.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> I'm sure Tunisians would love to hear their country referred to
    >>>>>>>> that way ... but of course, who cares about them? Their lives
    >>>>>>>> aren't worth as much as ours are.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> That's true. But what's the exchange rate?
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Pretty easily calculated, using news stories in the MSM and their
    >>>>>> relative ranking (i.e., page placement in the newspaper, etc.).
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> I figure it's somewhere in the neighborhood of 50:1 to 100:1.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> As of 09:45AM, 1/29/2011, 1.41 Tunisian Dinar = $1US = €0.74
    >>>>> (...er, there's an Ap for that)
    >>>>>
    >>>>> So your wide range guesstimate was not too close.
    >>>>
    >>>> So what does the currency exchange rate have to do with it? I think you
    >>>> may have missed my point here, which is the "value" of human life.
    >>>
    >>> For me still 1:1.

    >>
    >> Again, you miss my point.
    >>
    >> For me it's 1:1 too. But that's not the conclusion any Martian would
    >> come to if they were to come down to Earth and observe the relative
    >> worth placed on American lives and non-American lives in the US.
    >> Evidence? Just watch the news or read a newspaper ...

    >
    >That was never your question, implied or otherwise. Why the phuzzynuts,
    >would I care what a Martian would conclude?
    >Mr. average Martian would just jam one of his fingers in your token
    >North American ear, then jam that same finger in the ear of your token
    >Tunisian, and say, "Hey! That feels the same to me. Therefore these two
    >life forms, located in different places on this strange planet are
    >identical. Both should do just fine for that recipe in Mom's cook book."


    David is correct in one sense, but he's not very good at critical
    thinking.

    A 20 year-old unemployed motorcyclist was killed this weekend in a
    road accident. The local television station devoted a segment to the
    story and the local newspaper gave it two column-inches.

    Dozens of Iraqis died this weekend from various acts of violence.
    They were not named in the newspaper here and the local television
    stations made only a general reference to violence in Iraq.

    Would David's Martian conclude that one Orlando resident has more
    worth than a few dozen Iraqis, or would the Martian understand that
    newspapers and television news programs give space and time to what is
    of local interest?

    When a soldier from Orlando is killed in action in one of the Mideast
    conflict areas, that individual's death - and the family he/she leaves
    behind - is given somewhat extensive coverage in the Orlando media
    outlets. The dozens of deaths in the same time period of residents of
    that area rates coverage only if they all go at once or in some noted
    incident.

    Is this valuing an American higher than an Afghani or an Iraqi? Or is
    it just the media doing what is supposed to do in reporting to the
    public that the media serves?


    --
    Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
     
    tony cooper, Jan 30, 2011
    #10
  11. Rich

    peter Guest

    On 1/30/2011 9:22 AM, tony cooper wrote:

    >
    > David is correct in one sense, but he's not very good at critical
    > thinking.
    >
    > A 20 year-old unemployed motorcyclist was killed this weekend in a
    > road accident. The local television station devoted a segment to the
    > story and the local newspaper gave it two column-inches.
    >
    > Dozens of Iraqis died this weekend from various acts of violence.
    > They were not named in the newspaper here and the local television
    > stations made only a general reference to violence in Iraq.
    >
    > Would David's Martian conclude that one Orlando resident has more
    > worth than a few dozen Iraqis, or would the Martian understand that
    > newspapers and television news programs give space and time to what is
    > of local interest?
    >
    > When a soldier from Orlando is killed in action in one of the Mideast
    > conflict areas, that individual's death - and the family he/she leaves
    > behind - is given somewhat extensive coverage in the Orlando media
    > outlets. The dozens of deaths in the same time period of residents of
    > that area rates coverage only if they all go at once or in some noted
    > incident.
    >
    > Is this valuing an American higher than an Afghani or an Iraqi? Or is
    > it just the media doing what is supposed to do in reporting to the
    > public that the media serves?
    >
    >


    the flip side of that is how much coverage did the motorcyclist get in
    the Iraqi and Afghan press?




    --
    Peter
     
    peter, Jan 30, 2011
    #11
  12. Rich

    Walter Banks Guest

    Savageduck wrote:

    > They were looking for any excuse to pull the trigger. However they were
    > working in a hostile environment which encouraged such action. The
    > rules of engagement permitted them to fire once the first AK47 was
    > seen, and that was clearly visible. There was no clear ID of the group
    > as press. The follow up attack on the minivan was unnecessary as there
    > was nothing apparent to make it a target. They would have been better
    > waiting for the ground troops with the Bradley FV's to arrive on scene.


    The widely circulated video was unfortunately edited. In the original
    there was an individual with an RPG. This does not condone the
    killing of civilians.

    > You might well ask how the non-combatants in Dresden felt about
    > the fire bombing


    I can think of very few cases where the mass killing of civilians
    resulting in anything other that people determined to defend
    themselves at all costs.


    w..
     
    Walter Banks, Jan 30, 2011
    #12
  13. Rich

    peter Guest

    On 1/30/2011 3:21 PM, Savageduck wrote:
    > On 2011-01-30 12:10:07 -0800, George Kerby <> said:
    >
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> On 1/30/11 1:35 PM, in article
    >> 4d45bd88$0$5628$-secrets.com, "peter"
    >> <> wrote:
    >>
    >>> On 1/30/2011 9:22 AM, tony cooper wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>
    >>>> David is correct in one sense, but he's not very good at critical
    >>>> thinking.
    >>>>
    >>>> A 20 year-old unemployed motorcyclist was killed this weekend in a
    >>>> road accident. The local television station devoted a segment to the
    >>>> story and the local newspaper gave it two column-inches.
    >>>>
    >>>> Dozens of Iraqis died this weekend from various acts of violence.
    >>>> They were not named in the newspaper here and the local television
    >>>> stations made only a general reference to violence in Iraq.
    >>>>
    >>>> Would David's Martian conclude that one Orlando resident has more
    >>>> worth than a few dozen Iraqis, or would the Martian understand that
    >>>> newspapers and television news programs give space and time to what is
    >>>> of local interest?
    >>>>
    >>>> When a soldier from Orlando is killed in action in one of the Mideast
    >>>> conflict areas, that individual's death - and the family he/she leaves
    >>>> behind - is given somewhat extensive coverage in the Orlando media
    >>>> outlets. The dozens of deaths in the same time period of residents of
    >>>> that area rates coverage only if they all go at once or in some noted
    >>>> incident.
    >>>>
    >>>> Is this valuing an American higher than an Afghani or an Iraqi? Or is
    >>>> it just the media doing what is supposed to do in reporting to the
    >>>> public that the media serves?
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>> the flip side of that is how much coverage did the motorcyclist get in
    >>> the Iraqi and Afghan press?
    >>>
    >>>

    >> <BINGO!>

    >
    > Ta! Da!
    >
    > ...and the Martian is still able to snack on Kansan, Texan, Iraqi, or
    > Tunisian, without any discernible change in favor. (Though some might
    > have a slight oiliness.)
    >
    >


    Not exactly. When an LI soldier gets killed, it gets substantially more
    coverage in the LI papers, than an the Orlando guy.


    --
    Peter
     
    peter, Jan 30, 2011
    #13
  14. On 1/30/2011 6:22 AM tony cooper spake thus:

    > On Sat, 29 Jan 2011 20:18:56 -0800, Savageduck
    > <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
    >
    >>On 2011-01-29 19:28:27 -0800, David Nebenzahl <> said:
    >>
    >>> Again, you miss my point.
    >>>
    >>> For me it's 1:1 too. But that's not the conclusion any Martian would
    >>> come to if they were to come down to Earth and observe the relative
    >>> worth placed on American lives and non-American lives in the US.
    >>> Evidence? Just watch the news or read a newspaper ...

    >>
    >>That was never your question, implied or otherwise. Why the phuzzynuts,
    >>would I care what a Martian would conclude?
    >>Mr. average Martian would just jam one of his fingers in your token
    >>North American ear, then jam that same finger in the ear of your token
    >>Tunisian, and say, "Hey! That feels the same to me. Therefore these two
    >>life forms, located in different places on this strange planet are
    >>identical. Both should do just fine for that recipe in Mom's cook book."

    >
    > David is correct in one sense, but he's not very good at critical
    > thinking.


    I may not be all that great at expressing myself all the time, granted,
    but I think my critical thinking skills are at least OK.

    > A 20 year-old unemployed motorcyclist was killed this weekend in a
    > road accident. The local television station devoted a segment to the
    > story and the local newspaper gave it two column-inches.
    >
    > Dozens of Iraqis died this weekend from various acts of violence.
    > They were not named in the newspaper here and the local television
    > stations made only a general reference to violence in Iraq.
    >
    > Would David's Martian conclude that one Orlando resident has more
    > worth than a few dozen Iraqis, or would the Martian understand that
    > newspapers and television news programs give space and time to what is
    > of local interest?
    >
    > When a soldier from Orlando is killed in action in one of the Mideast
    > conflict areas, that individual's death - and the family he/she leaves
    > behind - is given somewhat extensive coverage in the Orlando media
    > outlets. The dozens of deaths in the same time period of residents of
    > that area rates coverage only if they all go at once or in some noted
    > incident.
    >
    > Is this valuing an American higher than an Afghani or an Iraqi? Or is
    > it just the media doing what is supposed to do in reporting to the
    > public that the media serves?


    Fair point, I suppose. Naturally, it's human nature to be more
    interested in local events. But there's more to it than that.

    Let me use the example of the Vietnam War (esp. since "savageduck" seems
    sorta fixated on this "conflict"): I offer proof of the relative worth
    of human life by way of how the wrong number is always used to describe
    this conflict.

    I'm talking, of course, about 55,000.

    As opposed to that other number, somewhere in the vicinity of 1 to 3
    million. (It's actually not known just how many Vietnamese were killed
    during this war.)

    Taking the average estimate of Vietnamese killed (1.5 million), I get a
    ratio of 27:1. Factoring out the "local vs. distant" bias, let's divide
    this by two. That still leaves a ratio of 13:1.

    Of course, even this could be dismissed as simply a matter of local vs.
    distant interest, except for the implicit assumption (mostly honored in
    the breach) that "all men are created equal"--not just nationally, but
    globally. In other words, we (the U.S.) always take great pains to claim
    how much we believe in the Rights of Man everywhere, not just in our
    Homeland.

    I believe my example proves otherwise. Either we're hypocrites, in which
    case you can apply the 13:1 ratio of the relative worth of human life,
    or ... I don't know what the alternative is here.


    --
    Comment on quaint Usenet customs, from Usenet:

    To me, the *plonk...* reminds me of the old man at the public hearing
    who stands to make his point, then removes his hearing aid as a sign
    that he is not going to hear any rebuttals.
     
    David Nebenzahl, Jan 30, 2011
    #14
  15. Rich

    tony cooper Guest

    On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 14:11:14 -0800, David Nebenzahl
    <> wrote:

    >On 1/30/2011 6:22 AM tony cooper spake thus:
    >
    >> On Sat, 29 Jan 2011 20:18:56 -0800, Savageduck
    >> <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
    >>
    >>>On 2011-01-29 19:28:27 -0800, David Nebenzahl <> said:
    >>>
    >>>> Again, you miss my point.
    >>>>
    >>>> For me it's 1:1 too. But that's not the conclusion any Martian would
    >>>> come to if they were to come down to Earth and observe the relative
    >>>> worth placed on American lives and non-American lives in the US.
    >>>> Evidence? Just watch the news or read a newspaper ...
    >>>
    >>>That was never your question, implied or otherwise. Why the phuzzynuts,
    >>>would I care what a Martian would conclude?
    >>>Mr. average Martian would just jam one of his fingers in your token
    >>>North American ear, then jam that same finger in the ear of your token
    >>>Tunisian, and say, "Hey! That feels the same to me. Therefore these two
    >>>life forms, located in different places on this strange planet are
    >>>identical. Both should do just fine for that recipe in Mom's cook book."

    >>
    >> David is correct in one sense, but he's not very good at critical
    >> thinking.

    >
    >I may not be all that great at expressing myself all the time, granted,
    >but I think my critical thinking skills are at least OK.
    >
    >> A 20 year-old unemployed motorcyclist was killed this weekend in a
    >> road accident. The local television station devoted a segment to the
    >> story and the local newspaper gave it two column-inches.
    >>
    >> Dozens of Iraqis died this weekend from various acts of violence.
    >> They were not named in the newspaper here and the local television
    >> stations made only a general reference to violence in Iraq.
    >>
    >> Would David's Martian conclude that one Orlando resident has more
    >> worth than a few dozen Iraqis, or would the Martian understand that
    >> newspapers and television news programs give space and time to what is
    >> of local interest?
    >>
    >> When a soldier from Orlando is killed in action in one of the Mideast
    >> conflict areas, that individual's death - and the family he/she leaves
    >> behind - is given somewhat extensive coverage in the Orlando media
    >> outlets. The dozens of deaths in the same time period of residents of
    >> that area rates coverage only if they all go at once or in some noted
    >> incident.
    >>
    >> Is this valuing an American higher than an Afghani or an Iraqi? Or is
    >> it just the media doing what is supposed to do in reporting to the
    >> public that the media serves?

    >
    >Fair point, I suppose. Naturally, it's human nature to be more
    >interested in local events. But there's more to it than that.
    >
    >Let me use the example of the Vietnam War (esp. since "savageduck" seems
    >sorta fixated on this "conflict"): I offer proof of the relative worth
    >of human life by way of how the wrong number is always used to describe
    >this conflict.
    >
    >I'm talking, of course, about 55,000.
    >
    >As opposed to that other number, somewhere in the vicinity of 1 to 3
    >million. (It's actually not known just how many Vietnamese were killed
    >during this war.)
    >
    >Taking the average estimate of Vietnamese killed (1.5 million), I get a
    >ratio of 27:1. Factoring out the "local vs. distant" bias, let's divide
    >this by two. That still leaves a ratio of 13:1.
    >
    >Of course, even this could be dismissed as simply a matter of local vs.
    >distant interest, except for the implicit assumption (mostly honored in
    >the breach) that "all men are created equal"--not just nationally, but
    >globally. In other words, we (the U.S.) always take great pains to claim
    >how much we believe in the Rights of Man everywhere, not just in our
    >Homeland.
    >
    >I believe my example proves otherwise. Either we're hypocrites, in which
    >case you can apply the 13:1 ratio of the relative worth of human life,
    >or ... I don't know what the alternative is here.


    I'm not at all sure what you attempted to prove. The US government
    kept track of how many and fatalities suffered by the US troops.
    Evidently, neither the US government or the Vietnamese governments
    (North and South) kept track of how many Vietnamese were killed. It
    was not known by either government how many Vietnamese combat
    participants there were. The North Vietnamese were really not into
    sharing information, or - perhaps - even in gathering information.

    The structure of the US military allowed the government to keep track.
    The structure of the Vietnamese system did not. Is this somehow a
    failing of the US?

    You say the wrong number is used. From what perspective? If a number
    is used by an American author, an American media organization, or the
    American government, is not the number of Americans killed the number
    of interest?


    --
    Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
     
    tony cooper, Jan 30, 2011
    #15
  16. On 1/30/2011 3:32 PM Savageduck spake thus:

    > On 2011-01-30 14:11:14 -0800, David Nebenzahl
    > <> said:
    >
    >> I believe my example proves otherwise. Either we're hypocrites, in
    >> which case you can apply the 13:1 ratio of the relative worth of
    >> human life, or ... I don't know what the alternative is here.

    >
    > Yup! We are for the most part hypocrites, blind to the other side of

    the fence.

    OK. I will accept that as at least partial agreement with the point I
    was trying to make about the (perceived, not actual) relative value of
    human life ...


    --
    Comment on quaint Usenet customs, from Usenet:

    To me, the *plonk...* reminds me of the old man at the public hearing
    who stands to make his point, then removes his hearing aid as a sign
    that he is not going to hear any rebuttals.
     
    David Nebenzahl, Jan 31, 2011
    #16
  17. On 1/30/2011 3:03 PM tony cooper spake thus:

    > On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 14:11:14 -0800, David Nebenzahl
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >> Let me use the example of the Vietnam War (esp. since "savageduck"
    >> seems sorta fixated on this "conflict"): I offer proof of the
    >> relative worth of human life by way of how the wrong number is
    >> always used to describe this conflict.
    >>
    >> I'm talking, of course, about 55,000.
    >>
    >> As opposed to that other number, somewhere in the vicinity of 1 to
    >> 3 million. (It's actually not known just how many Vietnamese were
    >> killed during this war.)
    >>
    >> Taking the average estimate of Vietnamese killed (1.5 million), I
    >> get a ratio of 27:1. Factoring out the "local vs. distant" bias,
    >> let's divide this by two. That still leaves a ratio of 13:1.
    >>
    >> Of course, even this could be dismissed as simply a matter of local
    >> vs. distant interest, except for the implicit assumption (mostly
    >> honored in the breach) that "all men are created equal"--not just
    >> nationally, but globally. In other words, we (the U.S.) always take
    >> great pains to claim how much we believe in the Rights of Man
    >> everywhere, not just in our Homeland.
    >>
    >> I believe my example proves otherwise. Either we're hypocrites, in
    >> which case you can apply the 13:1 ratio of the relative worth of
    >> human life, or ... I don't know what the alternative is here.

    >
    > I'm not at all sure what you attempted to prove. The US government
    > kept track of how many and fatalities suffered by the US troops.
    > Evidently, neither the US government or the Vietnamese governments
    > (North and South) kept track of how many Vietnamese were killed. It
    > was not known by either government how many Vietnamese combat
    > participants there were. The North Vietnamese were really not into
    > sharing information, or - perhaps - even in gathering information.
    >
    > The structure of the US military allowed the government to keep track.
    > The structure of the Vietnamese system did not. Is this somehow a
    > failing of the US?
    >
    > You say the wrong number is used. From what perspective? If a number
    > is used by an American author, an American media organization, or the
    > American government, is not the number of Americans killed the number
    > of interest?


    I think you're being excessively dense here, almost wilfully obtuse, but
    I'll play along anyhow.

    The point I was trying to make is that when discussing the Vietnam War
    with an American audience, the number of dead is inevitably given as
    50-something thousand. (Savageduck pointed out that the actual number is
    close to 58K.) Never a *mention* of the far greater losses on the other
    side. To me, this is an unconscionable omission. Even if it is written
    by an American author in an American media organization to an American
    audience.

    Either human life is worth exactly the same everywhere around the world
    or it isn't. Or, as Savageduck seems to agree, we're hypocrites.


    --
    Comment on quaint Usenet customs, from Usenet:

    To me, the *plonk...* reminds me of the old man at the public hearing
    who stands to make his point, then removes his hearing aid as a sign
    that he is not going to hear any rebuttals.
     
    David Nebenzahl, Jan 31, 2011
    #17
  18. Rich

    John A. Guest

    On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 18:30:38 -0800, Savageduck
    <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

    >On 2011-01-30 18:03:29 -0800, George Kerby <> said:
    >>
    >> On 1/30/11 2:21 PM, in article
    >> 2011013012211397157-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom, "Savageduck"
    >> <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
    >>
    >>> On 2011-01-30 12:10:07 -0800, George Kerby <> said:

    >
    >
    >>>>>
    >>>>> the flip side of that is how much coverage did the motorcyclist get in
    >>>>> the Iraqi and Afghan press?
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>> <BINGO!>
    >>>
    >>> Ta! Da!
    >>>
    >>> ...and the Martian is still able to snack on Kansan, Texan, Iraqi, or
    >>>
    >>> Tunisian, without any discernible change in favor. (Though some might
    >>> have a slight oiliness.)
    >>>

    >> A virtual Whitman Sampler, indeed!

    >
    >Sooner or later the old farts among us are going to get the Rod Serling
    >reference.
    >< http://thurly.net/0ruh >


    I think you mean Damon Knight. I actually read the story before ever
    seeing the TV adaptation.

    The Simpsons version was amusing.
     
    John A., Jan 31, 2011
    #18
  19. Rich

    tony cooper Guest

    On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 18:41:01 -0800, David Nebenzahl
    <> wrote:

    >On 1/30/2011 3:03 PM tony cooper spake thus:
    >
    >> On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 14:11:14 -0800, David Nebenzahl
    >> <> wrote:
    >>
    >>> Let me use the example of the Vietnam War (esp. since "savageduck"
    >>> seems sorta fixated on this "conflict"): I offer proof of the
    >>> relative worth of human life by way of how the wrong number is
    >>> always used to describe this conflict.
    >>>
    >>> I'm talking, of course, about 55,000.
    >>>
    >>> As opposed to that other number, somewhere in the vicinity of 1 to
    >>> 3 million. (It's actually not known just how many Vietnamese were
    >>> killed during this war.)
    >>>
    >>> Taking the average estimate of Vietnamese killed (1.5 million), I
    >>> get a ratio of 27:1. Factoring out the "local vs. distant" bias,
    >>> let's divide this by two. That still leaves a ratio of 13:1.
    >>>
    >>> Of course, even this could be dismissed as simply a matter of local
    >>> vs. distant interest, except for the implicit assumption (mostly
    >>> honored in the breach) that "all men are created equal"--not just
    >>> nationally, but globally. In other words, we (the U.S.) always take
    >>> great pains to claim how much we believe in the Rights of Man
    >>> everywhere, not just in our Homeland.
    >>>
    >>> I believe my example proves otherwise. Either we're hypocrites, in
    >>> which case you can apply the 13:1 ratio of the relative worth of
    >>> human life, or ... I don't know what the alternative is here.

    >>
    >> I'm not at all sure what you attempted to prove. The US government
    >> kept track of how many and fatalities suffered by the US troops.
    >> Evidently, neither the US government or the Vietnamese governments
    >> (North and South) kept track of how many Vietnamese were killed. It
    >> was not known by either government how many Vietnamese combat
    >> participants there were. The North Vietnamese were really not into
    >> sharing information, or - perhaps - even in gathering information.
    >>
    >> The structure of the US military allowed the government to keep track.
    >> The structure of the Vietnamese system did not. Is this somehow a
    >> failing of the US?
    >>
    >> You say the wrong number is used. From what perspective? If a number
    >> is used by an American author, an American media organization, or the
    >> American government, is not the number of Americans killed the number
    >> of interest?

    >
    >I think you're being excessively dense here, almost wilfully obtuse, but
    >I'll play along anyhow.
    >
    >The point I was trying to make is that when discussing the Vietnam War
    >with an American audience, the number of dead is inevitably given as
    >50-something thousand. (Savageduck pointed out that the actual number is
    >close to 58K.) Never a *mention* of the far greater losses on the other
    >side. To me, this is an unconscionable omission. Even if it is written
    >by an American author in an American media organization to an American
    >audience.


    For your point to make any sense at all, you would have to provide
    some context where both figures would be required to provide a fair
    and useful comparison, and then you would have to defend your claim
    that there is "never" a mention of the other side's losses. That is
    beyond your reach and smacks of no more than hand-waving.

    Most books or instances of media coverage present an analysis from a
    particular perspective. If that perspective is that of the US, then
    an emphasis on US losses is eminently fair.
    >
    >Either human life is worth exactly the same everywhere around the world
    >or it isn't.


    That, in this context, is a non sequitur of nonpareil dimension. An
    accounting of lives lost has nothing whatsoever to do with a valuation
    of human life. It's a quantitative statement, not a qualitative
    statement.

    To conform to that rather absurd premise, the death of each individual
    would have to be reported with equal space (print media) or equal time
    (visual/audio media).
    --
    Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
     
    tony cooper, Jan 31, 2011
    #19
  20. Rich

    peter Guest

    On 1/30/2011 8:40 PM, Bill Graham wrote:

    >
    > But, as the cook said to the cannibal who complained about the excessive
    > price of "hippie" on the menue: "Did you ever try to clean one of those
    > things?"



    I know a wildlife photographer who always wears a watch when
    photographing cannibals.

    He fears being boiled alive and figures that a watched kettle never boils.

    --
    Peter
     
    peter, Feb 1, 2011
    #20
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