Re: an excellent read from the ACLU

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Mike Benveniste, Sep 14, 2011.

  1. Pete Stavrakoglou <> wrote:

    > Your claim tha the burden falls on the middle class is wrong. 40% of all
    > federal income taxes are paid by the top 1%, the top 5% pay over 70% of all
    > federal income taxes, the top 10% pay over 80% of all federal income taxes.


    Please fill out:
    The top 1% own ...% of the money, but pay 40% of the FIT
    The top 5% own ...% of the money, but pay 70% of the FIT
    The top 10% own ...% of the money, but pay 80% of the FIT

    And BTW, the top 10% pay at most 50%.

    I give you
    http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/money_huge.png
    10 trillion USD in US households.
    The top 1% gets 2 trillion.
    The bottom 50% get 2 trillion, too.

    Yes, there are more taxes paid from the top 1% than from the bottom
    50%. Unfortunately, not ~50 times more, but only ca. 3 times more.
    So 1.6 million households (worth 2 trillion income) pay 3 times
    more than 63 million households (also worth 2 trillion income).

    In other words, a single household in the bottom 50% pays *13
    times* as much of it's income in FIT than a single household.

    So the *burden* is not born by the rich, they pay vastly less
    than an equal share of their income, no matter that they
    could afford a larger share of their income.

    -Wolfgang
     
    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Dec 14, 2011
    #41
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  2. Pete Stavrakoglou <> wrote:

    > My figures are correct, check them out for yourself


    So where are they? URLs, please ...

    -Wolfgang
     
    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Dec 14, 2011
    #42
    1. Advertising

  3. Mike Benveniste

    tony cooper Guest

    On Wed, 14 Dec 2011 08:09:59 -0500, "Pete Stavrakoglou"
    <> wrote:

    >"tony cooper" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 14:17:09 -0500, "Pete Stavrakoglou"
    >> <> wrote:
    >>
    >>>"tony cooper" <> wrote in message
    >>>news:...
    >>>> On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 08:41:46 -0500, "Pete Stavrakoglou"
    >>>> <> wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>>"Trevor" <> wrote in message
    >>>>>news:jc6pnp$moj$...
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> "tony cooper" <> wrote in message
    >>>>>> news:p...
    >>>>>>>>Governments do the buying with taxpayers money, taxpayers rarely have any
    >>>>>>>>say in it.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> The government employees who do the buying are, themselves, taxpayers.
    >>>>>>> In fact, they are sharing the burden more than many since they are
    >>>>>>> employed - usually at rather good salaries
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> That's the problem, it's not their money they waste, and they usually have
    >>>>>> a
    >>>>>> far better life style than many others.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>>and paying income taxes, property taxes, and taxes on purchases.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Which is why they love flat taxes so much. The old days of progressive
    >>>>>> taxes
    >>>>>> where those who could afford it actually paid more, are just about gone
    >>>>>> unfortunately. The new paradigm is the richer you are, the better the
    >>>>>> accountant you can afford, shelf companies you can set up, family trusts
    >>>>>> you
    >>>>>> can utilise, off shore tax havens you can register, and the less tax you
    >>>>>> actually pay. The tax burdon now falls almost entirely on the middle class
    >>>>>> and
    >>>>>> poorest members of the community because they have no ability to escape
    >>>>>> it.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Trevor.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>Your claim tha the burden falls on the middle class is wrong. 40% of all
    >>>>>federal income taxes are paid by the top 1%, the top 5% pay over 70% of all
    >>>>>federal income taxes, the top 10% pay over 80% of all federal income taxes.
    >>>>>
    >>>> The validity of the claim depends on what you think "the burden"
    >>>> means. If you consider that the group paying the highest percentage
    >>>> of all income taxes paid has the burden, then the statement is wrong.
    >>>> If you consider that the group paying out the highest percentage of
    >>>> their income has the burden, then the statement is correct.
    >>>
    >>>There's no obfuscating on this. The "rich" pay their fair share while the
    >>>bottom 50% of income earners pay zero federal income taxes. The top 10% of
    >>>earners are shouldering the tax burden for 80% of the country. That is quite
    >>>a
    >>>"burden" no matter how you try to spin it.
    >>>

    >> Speaking of spin...the original statement deals with the middle class.
    >> What you have pointed out is that the *bottom* 50% of the wage earners
    >> pay no taxes.

    >
    >I pointed out a lot more than that and I'm not the one trying to spin this one
    >Tony, you are.
    >


    That "pay zero federal income taxes" is spin.

    The bottom 50% of the wage earners loan the government money for
    twelve months of the year. If they're earning a wage, withholding is
    taken out. They may get back part or all of that money as a refund,
    but they don't have use of the money until the refund is received.

    Also "spin" is "fair share".
    --
    Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
     
    tony cooper, Dec 14, 2011
    #43
  4. Mike Benveniste

    GMAN Guest

    In article <jc6cab$rvn$>, "Trevor" <> wrote:
    >
    >"Pete Stavrakoglou" <> wrote in message
    >news:jc4unk$koj$...
    >>
    >> Greece is in the state it's in because of government spending, overly
    >> generous government benefits, lack of adequate tax collection,

    >
    >Dead right there, just as the US would be OK *IF* they actually collected
    >taxes from the rich and big corporations.


    Oh please, 40+ percent of the US doesnt even pay a penny in taxes where the
    rich pay approx 52%

    >It's certainly not the poor where most of the money went in either country!
    >
    >Trevor.
    >
    >
    >
    >
     
    GMAN, Dec 14, 2011
    #44
  5. Mike Benveniste

    GMAN Guest

    In article <>, tony cooper <> wrote:
    >On Wed, 14 Dec 2011 08:09:59 -0500, "Pete Stavrakoglou"
    ><> wrote:
    >
    >>"tony cooper" <> wrote in message
    >>news:...
    >>> On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 14:17:09 -0500, "Pete Stavrakoglou"
    >>> <> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>"tony cooper" <> wrote in message
    >>>>news:...
    >>>>> On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 08:41:46 -0500, "Pete Stavrakoglou"
    >>>>> <> wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>>"Trevor" <> wrote in message
    >>>>>>news:jc6pnp$moj$...
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> "tony cooper" <> wrote in message
    >>>>>>> news:p...
    >>>>>>>>>Governments do the buying with taxpayers money, taxpayers rarely have

    > any
    >>>>>>>>>say in it.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> The government employees who do the buying are, themselves, taxpayers.
    >>>>>>>> In fact, they are sharing the burden more than many since they are
    >>>>>>>> employed - usually at rather good salaries
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> That's the problem, it's not their money they waste, and they usually

    > have
    >>>>>>> a
    >>>>>>> far better life style than many others.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>and paying income taxes, property taxes, and taxes on purchases.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Which is why they love flat taxes so much. The old days of progressive
    >>>>>>> taxes
    >>>>>>> where those who could afford it actually paid more, are just about gone
    >>>>>>> unfortunately. The new paradigm is the richer you are, the better the
    >>>>>>> accountant you can afford, shelf companies you can set up, family trusts

    >
    >>>>>>> you
    >>>>>>> can utilise, off shore tax havens you can register, and the less tax you
    >>>>>>> actually pay. The tax burdon now falls almost entirely on the middle

    > class
    >>>>>>> and
    >>>>>>> poorest members of the community because they have no ability to escape
    >>>>>>> it.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Trevor.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>Your claim tha the burden falls on the middle class is wrong. 40% of all
    >>>>>>federal income taxes are paid by the top 1%, the top 5% pay over 70% of

    > all
    >>>>>>federal income taxes, the top 10% pay over 80% of all federal income

    > taxes.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>> The validity of the claim depends on what you think "the burden"
    >>>>> means. If you consider that the group paying the highest percentage
    >>>>> of all income taxes paid has the burden, then the statement is wrong.
    >>>>> If you consider that the group paying out the highest percentage of
    >>>>> their income has the burden, then the statement is correct.
    >>>>
    >>>>There's no obfuscating on this. The "rich" pay their fair share while the
    >>>>bottom 50% of income earners pay zero federal income taxes. The top 10% of
    >>>>earners are shouldering the tax burden for 80% of the country. That is

    > quite
    >>>>a
    >>>>"burden" no matter how you try to spin it.
    >>>>
    >>> Speaking of spin...the original statement deals with the middle class.
    >>> What you have pointed out is that the *bottom* 50% of the wage earners
    >>> pay no taxes.

    >>
    >>I pointed out a lot more than that and I'm not the one trying to spin this one

    >
    >>Tony, you are.
    >>

    >
    >That "pay zero federal income taxes" is spin.
    >
    >The bottom 50% of the wage earners loan the government money for
    >twelve months of the year. If they're earning a wage, withholding is
    >taken out. They may get back part or all of that money as a refund,
    >but they don't have use of the money until the refund is received.
    >
    >Also "spin" is "fair share".


    If they get it all back, then they paid "NO" taxes!

    And on top of getting it all back, so many people squirt out endless little
    kids and get thousands given to them that they didnt even earn via Child Tax
    Credits etc... Why should i pay taxes just so those popping out endless kids
    can get my hard earned money?
     
    GMAN, Dec 14, 2011
    #45
  6. Eric Stevens <> wrote:
    > On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 19:56:37 +0100, Wolfgang Weisselberg
    >>PeterN <> wrote:


    >>> Please explain, in clear English, with supporting facts, exactly why it
    >>> is the fault of the US banking system.


    >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-2000s_financial_crisis
    >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-2000s_recession_in_Europe#Greece
    >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_European_sovereign_debt_crisis#Speculators


    > It wasn't the US Banks which caused just about every country in the
    > world to pour out money by the bucket load for frivolous reasons
    > within their own economies.


    True. It wasn't the heavy earthquake far away from the usual
    earthquake areas that built the buildings it tore down.


    And indeed, spending money to save banks was frivolously spent,
    as nobody gained influence over these run-away nuclear reactions
    doing that. Turns out not spending the money is even worse.

    -Wolfgang
     
    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Dec 14, 2011
    #46
  7. Mike Benveniste

    Martin Brown Guest

    On 13/12/2011 13:44, Pete Stavrakoglou wrote:
    > "Trevor"<> wrote in message
    > news:jc6cab$rvn$...
    >>
    >> "Pete Stavrakoglou"<> wrote in message
    >> news:jc4unk$koj$...
    >>>
    >>> Greece is in the state it's in because of government spending, overly
    >>> generous government benefits, lack of adequate tax collection,

    >>
    >> Dead right there, just as the US would be OK *IF* they actually collected
    >> taxes from the rich and big corporations.
    >> It's certainly not the poor where most of the money went in either country!
    >>
    >> Trevor.

    >
    > Per my last post. The top 1% pay over 40% of all federal income taxes, the top
    > 5% over 70% and te top 10% over 80%. You can take all of the money rich people
    > have and it would not put a dent in the deficit because our federal government
    > has an insatiable appetite to spend.


    You appear to be confusing marginal rates of taxation with actual taxes
    paid - and that still assumes the highest earners do not cheat.

    See for example the graph of top US marginal rate of taxation 1916-2010
    and you can quickly understand why the US is near bankrupt now.

    http://visualizingeconomics.com/2011/04/14/top-marginal-tax-rates-1916-2010/

    Or you can look at historical tax rates by income group

    http://visualizingeconomics.com/2007/11/03/nytimes-historical-tax-rates-by-income-group/

    Left as an excercise for the reader to compute the actual tax take from
    each sector.

    What is entirely certain is that your claim is total garbage.

    The present US system is geared to making the already super rich elite
    with influence who can bribe politicians ever richer.

    Regards,
    Martin Brown
     
    Martin Brown, Dec 14, 2011
    #47
  8. Mike Benveniste

    tony cooper Guest

    On Wed, 14 Dec 2011 18:30:26 GMT,
    (GMAN) wrote:

    >In article <>, tony cooper <> wrote:
    >>On Wed, 14 Dec 2011 08:09:59 -0500, "Pete Stavrakoglou"
    >><> wrote:
    >>
    >>>"tony cooper" <> wrote in message
    >>>news:...
    >>>> On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 14:17:09 -0500, "Pete Stavrakoglou"
    >>>> <> wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>>"tony cooper" <> wrote in message
    >>>>>news:...
    >>>>>> On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 08:41:46 -0500, "Pete Stavrakoglou"
    >>>>>> <> wrote:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>>"Trevor" <> wrote in message
    >>>>>>>news:jc6pnp$moj$...
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> "tony cooper" <> wrote in message
    >>>>>>>> news:p...
    >>>>>>>>>>Governments do the buying with taxpayers money, taxpayers rarely have

    >> any
    >>>>>>>>>>say in it.
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> The government employees who do the buying are, themselves, taxpayers.
    >>>>>>>>> In fact, they are sharing the burden more than many since they are
    >>>>>>>>> employed - usually at rather good salaries
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> That's the problem, it's not their money they waste, and they usually

    >> have
    >>>>>>>> a
    >>>>>>>> far better life style than many others.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>and paying income taxes, property taxes, and taxes on purchases.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> Which is why they love flat taxes so much. The old days of progressive
    >>>>>>>> taxes
    >>>>>>>> where those who could afford it actually paid more, are just about gone
    >>>>>>>> unfortunately. The new paradigm is the richer you are, the better the
    >>>>>>>> accountant you can afford, shelf companies you can set up, family trusts

    >>
    >>>>>>>> you
    >>>>>>>> can utilise, off shore tax havens you can register, and the less tax you
    >>>>>>>> actually pay. The tax burdon now falls almost entirely on the middle

    >> class
    >>>>>>>> and
    >>>>>>>> poorest members of the community because they have no ability to escape
    >>>>>>>> it.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> Trevor.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>Your claim tha the burden falls on the middle class is wrong. 40% of all
    >>>>>>>federal income taxes are paid by the top 1%, the top 5% pay over 70% of

    >> all
    >>>>>>>federal income taxes, the top 10% pay over 80% of all federal income

    >> taxes.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>> The validity of the claim depends on what you think "the burden"
    >>>>>> means. If you consider that the group paying the highest percentage
    >>>>>> of all income taxes paid has the burden, then the statement is wrong.
    >>>>>> If you consider that the group paying out the highest percentage of
    >>>>>> their income has the burden, then the statement is correct.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>There's no obfuscating on this. The "rich" pay their fair share while the
    >>>>>bottom 50% of income earners pay zero federal income taxes. The top 10% of
    >>>>>earners are shouldering the tax burden for 80% of the country. That is

    >> quite
    >>>>>a
    >>>>>"burden" no matter how you try to spin it.
    >>>>>
    >>>> Speaking of spin...the original statement deals with the middle class.
    >>>> What you have pointed out is that the *bottom* 50% of the wage earners
    >>>> pay no taxes.
    >>>
    >>>I pointed out a lot more than that and I'm not the one trying to spin this one

    >>
    >>>Tony, you are.
    >>>

    >>
    >>That "pay zero federal income taxes" is spin.
    >>
    >>The bottom 50% of the wage earners loan the government money for
    >>twelve months of the year. If they're earning a wage, withholding is
    >>taken out. They may get back part or all of that money as a refund,
    >>but they don't have use of the money until the refund is received.
    >>
    >>Also "spin" is "fair share".

    >
    >If they get it all back, then they paid "NO" taxes!


    Like most things in this area, it depends on your viewpoint. If you
    loan someone $100 a month for twelve months, and then get that money
    back in the thirteenth month, you are out of pocket from $100 to
    $1,200 during the year. The person you loan the money to has the use
    of that money for the twelve months.


    --
    Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
     
    tony cooper, Dec 14, 2011
    #48
  9. Mike Benveniste

    GMAN Guest

    In article <>, tony cooper <> wrote:
    >On Wed, 14 Dec 2011 18:30:26 GMT,
    >(GMAN) wrote:
    >
    >>In article <>, tony cooper

    > <> wrote:
    >>>On Wed, 14 Dec 2011 08:09:59 -0500, "Pete Stavrakoglou"
    >>><> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>"tony cooper" <> wrote in message
    >>>>news:...
    >>>>> On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 14:17:09 -0500, "Pete Stavrakoglou"
    >>>>> <> wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>>"tony cooper" <> wrote in message
    >>>>>>news:...
    >>>>>>> On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 08:41:46 -0500, "Pete Stavrakoglou"
    >>>>>>> <> wrote:
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>"Trevor" <> wrote in message
    >>>>>>>>news:jc6pnp$moj$...
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> "tony cooper" <> wrote in message
    >>>>>>>>> news:p...
    >>>>>>>>>>>Governments do the buying with taxpayers money, taxpayers rarely have
    >>> any
    >>>>>>>>>>>say in it.
    >>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> The government employees who do the buying are, themselves,

    > taxpayers.
    >>>>>>>>>> In fact, they are sharing the burden more than many since they are
    >>>>>>>>>> employed - usually at rather good salaries
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> That's the problem, it's not their money they waste, and they usually
    >>> have
    >>>>>>>>> a
    >>>>>>>>> far better life style than many others.
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>and paying income taxes, property taxes, and taxes on purchases.
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> Which is why they love flat taxes so much. The old days of progressive

    >
    >>>>>>>>> taxes
    >>>>>>>>> where those who could afford it actually paid more, are just about

    > gone
    >>>>>>>>> unfortunately. The new paradigm is the richer you are, the better the
    >>>>>>>>> accountant you can afford, shelf companies you can set up, family

    > trusts
    >>>
    >>>>>>>>> you
    >>>>>>>>> can utilise, off shore tax havens you can register, and the less tax

    > you
    >>>>>>>>> actually pay. The tax burdon now falls almost entirely on the middle
    >>> class
    >>>>>>>>> and
    >>>>>>>>> poorest members of the community because they have no ability to

    > escape
    >>>>>>>>> it.
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> Trevor.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>Your claim tha the burden falls on the middle class is wrong. 40% of

    > all
    >>>>>>>>federal income taxes are paid by the top 1%, the top 5% pay over 70% of
    >>> all
    >>>>>>>>federal income taxes, the top 10% pay over 80% of all federal income
    >>> taxes.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> The validity of the claim depends on what you think "the burden"
    >>>>>>> means. If you consider that the group paying the highest percentage
    >>>>>>> of all income taxes paid has the burden, then the statement is wrong.
    >>>>>>> If you consider that the group paying out the highest percentage of
    >>>>>>> their income has the burden, then the statement is correct.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>There's no obfuscating on this. The "rich" pay their fair share while the
    >>>>>>bottom 50% of income earners pay zero federal income taxes. The top 10%

    > of
    >>>>>>earners are shouldering the tax burden for 80% of the country. That is
    >>> quite
    >>>>>>a
    >>>>>>"burden" no matter how you try to spin it.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>> Speaking of spin...the original statement deals with the middle class.
    >>>>> What you have pointed out is that the *bottom* 50% of the wage earners
    >>>>> pay no taxes.
    >>>>
    >>>>I pointed out a lot more than that and I'm not the one trying to spin this

    > one
    >>>
    >>>>Tony, you are.
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>>That "pay zero federal income taxes" is spin.
    >>>
    >>>The bottom 50% of the wage earners loan the government money for
    >>>twelve months of the year. If they're earning a wage, withholding is
    >>>taken out. They may get back part or all of that money as a refund,
    >>>but they don't have use of the money until the refund is received.
    >>>
    >>>Also "spin" is "fair share".

    >>
    >>If they get it all back, then they paid "NO" taxes!

    >
    >Like most things in this area, it depends on your viewpoint. If you
    >loan someone $100 a month for twelve months, and then get that money
    >back in the thirteenth month, you are out of pocket from $100 to
    >$1,200 during the year. The person you loan the money to has the use
    >of that money for the twelve months.
    >
    >


    If you get back that $100 that you sent in you paid zero.
     
    GMAN, Dec 14, 2011
    #49
  10. (GMAN) writes:

    > In article <jc6cab$rvn$>, "Trevor" <> wrote:
    >>
    >>"Pete Stavrakoglou" <> wrote in message
    >>news:jc4unk$koj$...
    >>>
    >>> Greece is in the state it's in because of government spending, overly
    >>> generous government benefits, lack of adequate tax collection,

    >>
    >>Dead right there, just as the US would be OK *IF* they actually collected
    >>taxes from the rich and big corporations.

    >
    > Oh please, 40+ percent of the US doesnt even pay a penny in taxes where the
    > rich pay approx 52%


    That's nonsense.

    Income taxes are not the only taxes; there are property taxes and sales
    taxes and social security taxes and so forth.
    --
    David Dyer-Bennet, ; http://dd-b.net/
    Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
    Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/
    Dragaera: http://dragaera.info
     
    David Dyer-Bennet, Dec 14, 2011
    #50
  11. Mike Benveniste

    Trevor Guest

    "Pete Stavrakoglou" <> wrote in message
    news:jca7mp$emg$...
    > My figures are correct, check them out for yourself rather than just
    > dismissing them.


    It's impossible to properly determine with the publicly available data.

    >And about my "limiting" the argument solely to federal income taxes - the
    >myriad of statem, city, and local taxes across the country make it almost
    >impossible to gather that type of data for a usenet discussion. You're
    >welcome to do it if you'd like. Still, the statistics I noted are correct,
    >why do you have a problem with that?


    Because it is disingenuous to focus solely on one out of a hundred taxes and
    claim that means anything to the average person. As I said all along, the
    rich WANT less income tax which has always been progressive (rightly so IMO)
    and more flat taxes of all kinds, and are consistantly getting their way.
    YOU are simply championing there cause.
    The fact that the gap in disposable income between rich and poor has
    increased immensely over the last 50 years is NO coincidence. Why not FOCUS
    on that?

    Trevor.
     
    Trevor, Dec 14, 2011
    #51
  12. Mike Benveniste

    Trevor Guest

    "PeterN" <> wrote in message
    news:4ee8e032$0$31092$-secrets.com...
    > EOD


    Or perhaps just E&OE :)

    Trevor.
     
    Trevor, Dec 14, 2011
    #52
  13. Mike Benveniste

    tony cooper Guest

    On Wed, 14 Dec 2011 20:07:09 GMT,
    (GMAN) wrote:

    >In article <>, tony cooper <> wrote:
    >>On Wed, 14 Dec 2011 18:30:26 GMT,
    >>(GMAN) wrote:
    >>
    >>>In article <>, tony cooper

    >> <> wrote:
    >>>>On Wed, 14 Dec 2011 08:09:59 -0500, "Pete Stavrakoglou"
    >>>><> wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>>"tony cooper" <> wrote in message
    >>>>>news:...
    >>>>>> On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 14:17:09 -0500, "Pete Stavrakoglou"
    >>>>>> <> wrote:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>>"tony cooper" <> wrote in message
    >>>>>>>news:...
    >>>>>>>> On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 08:41:46 -0500, "Pete Stavrakoglou"
    >>>>>>>> <> wrote:
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>"Trevor" <> wrote in message
    >>>>>>>>>news:jc6pnp$moj$...
    >>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> "tony cooper" <> wrote in message
    >>>>>>>>>> news:p...
    >>>>>>>>>>>>Governments do the buying with taxpayers money, taxpayers rarely have
    >>>> any
    >>>>>>>>>>>>say in it.
    >>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>> The government employees who do the buying are, themselves,

    >> taxpayers.
    >>>>>>>>>>> In fact, they are sharing the burden more than many since they are
    >>>>>>>>>>> employed - usually at rather good salaries
    >>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> That's the problem, it's not their money they waste, and they usually
    >>>> have
    >>>>>>>>>> a
    >>>>>>>>>> far better life style than many others.
    >>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>>and paying income taxes, property taxes, and taxes on purchases.
    >>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> Which is why they love flat taxes so much. The old days of progressive

    >>
    >>>>>>>>>> taxes
    >>>>>>>>>> where those who could afford it actually paid more, are just about

    >> gone
    >>>>>>>>>> unfortunately. The new paradigm is the richer you are, the better the
    >>>>>>>>>> accountant you can afford, shelf companies you can set up, family

    >> trusts
    >>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> you
    >>>>>>>>>> can utilise, off shore tax havens you can register, and the less tax

    >> you
    >>>>>>>>>> actually pay. The tax burdon now falls almost entirely on the middle
    >>>> class
    >>>>>>>>>> and
    >>>>>>>>>> poorest members of the community because they have no ability to

    >> escape
    >>>>>>>>>> it.
    >>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> Trevor.
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>Your claim tha the burden falls on the middle class is wrong. 40% of

    >> all
    >>>>>>>>>federal income taxes are paid by the top 1%, the top 5% pay over 70% of
    >>>> all
    >>>>>>>>>federal income taxes, the top 10% pay over 80% of all federal income
    >>>> taxes.
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> The validity of the claim depends on what you think "the burden"
    >>>>>>>> means. If you consider that the group paying the highest percentage
    >>>>>>>> of all income taxes paid has the burden, then the statement is wrong.
    >>>>>>>> If you consider that the group paying out the highest percentage of
    >>>>>>>> their income has the burden, then the statement is correct.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>There's no obfuscating on this. The "rich" pay their fair share while the
    >>>>>>>bottom 50% of income earners pay zero federal income taxes. The top 10%

    >> of
    >>>>>>>earners are shouldering the tax burden for 80% of the country. That is
    >>>> quite
    >>>>>>>a
    >>>>>>>"burden" no matter how you try to spin it.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>> Speaking of spin...the original statement deals with the middle class.
    >>>>>> What you have pointed out is that the *bottom* 50% of the wage earners
    >>>>>> pay no taxes.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>I pointed out a lot more than that and I'm not the one trying to spin this

    >> one
    >>>>
    >>>>>Tony, you are.
    >>>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>That "pay zero federal income taxes" is spin.
    >>>>
    >>>>The bottom 50% of the wage earners loan the government money for
    >>>>twelve months of the year. If they're earning a wage, withholding is
    >>>>taken out. They may get back part or all of that money as a refund,
    >>>>but they don't have use of the money until the refund is received.
    >>>>
    >>>>Also "spin" is "fair share".
    >>>
    >>>If they get it all back, then they paid "NO" taxes!

    >>
    >>Like most things in this area, it depends on your viewpoint. If you
    >>loan someone $100 a month for twelve months, and then get that money
    >>back in the thirteenth month, you are out of pocket from $100 to
    >>$1,200 during the year. The person you loan the money to has the use
    >>of that money for the twelve months.
    >>
    >>

    >
    >If you get back that $100 that you sent in you paid zero.


    How do you function in society if you don't understand the impact of
    having your take-home pay reduced by $100 a month because you are
    loaning someone else $100 a month even if you eventually get that
    money back?

    Yes, the person pays out a net zero over the long run, but to the
    person in that income stratum that $100 is a major difference in their
    lifestyle.




    --
    Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
     
    tony cooper, Dec 14, 2011
    #53
  14. Mike Benveniste

    Trevor Guest

    "tony cooper" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > That "pay zero federal income taxes" is spin.


    Right.
    >
    > The bottom 50% of the wage earners loan the government money for
    > twelve months of the year. If they're earning a wage, withholding is
    > taken out. They may get back part or all of that money as a refund,
    > but they don't have use of the money until the refund is received.


    If you think a small percentage get back ALL of their income tax payments,
    let alone 50%, I've got a harbour bridge I'd like to sell you! :)
    In fact it's more often the rich with the best accountants and miracle
    accounting schemes that pay no income tax :-(

    Trevor.
     
    Trevor, Dec 14, 2011
    #54
  15. Mike Benveniste

    Trevor Guest

    "GMAN" <> wrote in message
    news:6X5Gq.194353$1.easynews.com...
    > And on top of getting it all back, so many people squirt out endless
    > little
    > kids and get thousands given to them that they didnt even earn via Child
    > Tax
    > Credits etc... Why should i pay taxes just so those popping out endless
    > kids
    > can get my hard earned money?


    No argument there, poor OR rich, the world has morer than enough people!
    Over here you can't even claim travel expenses for getting to work, (unless
    you have a company car) yet even the rich can claim child care expenses.
    It's easy to tell it's not poor people who make the rules!

    Trevor.
     
    Trevor, Dec 14, 2011
    #55
  16. Mike Benveniste

    Trevor Guest

    "GMAN" <> wrote in message
    news:YS5Gq.194233$1.easynews.com...
    >>> Greece is in the state it's in because of government spending, overly
    >>> generous government benefits, lack of adequate tax collection,

    >>
    >>Dead right there, just as the US would be OK *IF* they actually collected
    >>taxes from the rich and big corporations.

    >
    > Oh please, 40+ percent of the US doesnt even pay a penny in taxes where
    > the
    > rich pay approx 52%



    Once again you are sadly deluded or are deliberately ignoring the vast
    majority of taxes collected to pretend the rich are hard done by.
    What's the matter, can't afford a new Ferrari this year?

    Trevor.
     
    Trevor, Dec 14, 2011
    #56
  17. Mike Benveniste

    Trevor Guest

    "Martin Brown" <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
    news:jcarg4$nc0$...
    > On 13/12/2011 13:44, Pete Stavrakoglou wrote:
    >> Per my last post. The top 1% pay over 40% of all federal income taxes,
    >> the top
    >> 5% over 70% and te top 10% over 80%. You can take all of the money rich
    >> people
    >> have and it would not put a dent in the deficit because our federal
    >> government
    >> has an insatiable appetite to spend.

    >
    > You appear to be confusing marginal rates of taxation with actual taxes
    > paid


    On available evidence he is too stupid to realise that!

    >and that still assumes the highest earners do not cheat.


    Which of course the do at a FAR bigger rate than low income earners, since
    they have better accountants and lawyers.


    > See for example the graph of top US marginal rate of taxation 1916-2010
    > and you can quickly understand why the US is near bankrupt now.
    >
    > http://visualizingeconomics.com/2011/04/14/top-marginal-tax-rates-1916-2010/
    >
    > Or you can look at historical tax rates by income group
    >
    > http://visualizingeconomics.com/2007/11/03/nytimes-historical-tax-rates-by-income-group/
    >
    > Left as an excercise for the reader to compute the actual tax take from
    > each sector.
    >
    > What is entirely certain is that your claim is total garbage.
    >
    > The present US system is geared to making the already super rich elite
    > with influence who can bribe politicians ever richer.



    Now THAT is beyond dispute unfortunately, and NOT just in the USA! :-( :-(

    Trevor.
     
    Trevor, Dec 14, 2011
    #57
  18. Mike Benveniste

    Trevor Guest

    "tony cooper" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >>If you get back that $100 that you sent in you paid zero.

    >
    > How do you function in society if you don't understand the impact of
    > having your take-home pay reduced by $100 a month because you are
    > loaning someone else $100 a month even if you eventually get that
    > money back?


    I've yet to meet one of these mythical workers who pays zero income tax in
    any case. Over here you pay income tax on any income over $6,000, and it's
    pretty hard to live on <$6,000!
    And that's STILL ignoring a hundred other taxes, levies, duties, excises,
    surcharges etc. at federal state and local levels you still have to pay! :-(

    Trevor.
     
    Trevor, Dec 14, 2011
    #58
  19. "tony cooper" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Wed, 14 Dec 2011 08:09:59 -0500, "Pete Stavrakoglou"
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >>"tony cooper" <> wrote in message
    >>news:...
    >>> On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 14:17:09 -0500, "Pete Stavrakoglou"
    >>> <> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>"tony cooper" <> wrote in message
    >>>>news:...
    >>>>> On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 08:41:46 -0500, "Pete Stavrakoglou"
    >>>>> <> wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>>"Trevor" <> wrote in message
    >>>>>>news:jc6pnp$moj$...
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> "tony cooper" <> wrote in message
    >>>>>>> news:p...
    >>>>>>>>>Governments do the buying with taxpayers money, taxpayers rarely have
    >>>>>>>>>any
    >>>>>>>>>say in it.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> The government employees who do the buying are, themselves, taxpayers.
    >>>>>>>> In fact, they are sharing the burden more than many since they are
    >>>>>>>> employed - usually at rather good salaries
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> That's the problem, it's not their money they waste, and they usually
    >>>>>>> have
    >>>>>>> a
    >>>>>>> far better life style than many others.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>and paying income taxes, property taxes, and taxes on purchases.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Which is why they love flat taxes so much. The old days of progressive
    >>>>>>> taxes
    >>>>>>> where those who could afford it actually paid more, are just about gone
    >>>>>>> unfortunately. The new paradigm is the richer you are, the better the
    >>>>>>> accountant you can afford, shelf companies you can set up, family trusts
    >>>>>>> you
    >>>>>>> can utilise, off shore tax havens you can register, and the less tax you
    >>>>>>> actually pay. The tax burdon now falls almost entirely on the middle
    >>>>>>> class
    >>>>>>> and
    >>>>>>> poorest members of the community because they have no ability to escape
    >>>>>>> it.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Trevor.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>Your claim tha the burden falls on the middle class is wrong. 40% of all
    >>>>>>federal income taxes are paid by the top 1%, the top 5% pay over 70% of
    >>>>>>all
    >>>>>>federal income taxes, the top 10% pay over 80% of all federal income
    >>>>>>taxes.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>> The validity of the claim depends on what you think "the burden"
    >>>>> means. If you consider that the group paying the highest percentage
    >>>>> of all income taxes paid has the burden, then the statement is wrong.
    >>>>> If you consider that the group paying out the highest percentage of
    >>>>> their income has the burden, then the statement is correct.
    >>>>
    >>>>There's no obfuscating on this. The "rich" pay their fair share while the
    >>>>bottom 50% of income earners pay zero federal income taxes. The top 10% of
    >>>>earners are shouldering the tax burden for 80% of the country. That is
    >>>>quite
    >>>>a
    >>>>"burden" no matter how you try to spin it.
    >>>>
    >>> Speaking of spin...the original statement deals with the middle class.
    >>> What you have pointed out is that the *bottom* 50% of the wage earners
    >>> pay no taxes.

    >>
    >>I pointed out a lot more than that and I'm not the one trying to spin this one
    >>Tony, you are.
    >>

    >
    > That "pay zero federal income taxes" is spin.
    >
    > The bottom 50% of the wage earners loan the government money for
    > twelve months of the year. If they're earning a wage, withholding is
    > taken out. They may get back part or all of that money as a refund,
    > but they don't have use of the money until the refund is received.
    >
    > Also "spin" is "fair share".


    Are you serious? They get all their money back (some even get more than that in
    credits) and you're going to say that it's spin when I say they don't pay
    federal income taxes? What a ridiculous thing to say. BTW, anyone can easily
    change their withholding so that they don't get a refund which means they don't
    make that "loan" as you call it, to the fed.
     
    Pete Stavrakoglou, Dec 15, 2011
    #59
  20. "tony cooper" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Wed, 14 Dec 2011 18:30:26 GMT,
    > (GMAN) wrote:
    >
    >>In article <>, tony cooper
    >><> wrote:
    >>>On Wed, 14 Dec 2011 08:09:59 -0500, "Pete Stavrakoglou"
    >>><> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>"tony cooper" <> wrote in message
    >>>>news:...
    >>>>> On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 14:17:09 -0500, "Pete Stavrakoglou"
    >>>>> <> wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>>"tony cooper" <> wrote in message
    >>>>>>news:...
    >>>>>>> On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 08:41:46 -0500, "Pete Stavrakoglou"
    >>>>>>> <> wrote:
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>"Trevor" <> wrote in message
    >>>>>>>>news:jc6pnp$moj$...
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> "tony cooper" <> wrote in message
    >>>>>>>>> news:p...
    >>>>>>>>>>>Governments do the buying with taxpayers money, taxpayers rarely have
    >>> any
    >>>>>>>>>>>say in it.
    >>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> The government employees who do the buying are, themselves,
    >>>>>>>>>> taxpayers.
    >>>>>>>>>> In fact, they are sharing the burden more than many since they are
    >>>>>>>>>> employed - usually at rather good salaries
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> That's the problem, it's not their money they waste, and they usually
    >>> have
    >>>>>>>>> a
    >>>>>>>>> far better life style than many others.
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>and paying income taxes, property taxes, and taxes on purchases.
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> Which is why they love flat taxes so much. The old days of progressive
    >>>>>>>>> taxes
    >>>>>>>>> where those who could afford it actually paid more, are just about
    >>>>>>>>> gone
    >>>>>>>>> unfortunately. The new paradigm is the richer you are, the better the
    >>>>>>>>> accountant you can afford, shelf companies you can set up, family
    >>>>>>>>> trusts
    >>>
    >>>>>>>>> you
    >>>>>>>>> can utilise, off shore tax havens you can register, and the less tax
    >>>>>>>>> you
    >>>>>>>>> actually pay. The tax burdon now falls almost entirely on the middle
    >>> class
    >>>>>>>>> and
    >>>>>>>>> poorest members of the community because they have no ability to
    >>>>>>>>> escape
    >>>>>>>>> it.
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> Trevor.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>Your claim tha the burden falls on the middle class is wrong. 40% of
    >>>>>>>>all
    >>>>>>>>federal income taxes are paid by the top 1%, the top 5% pay over 70% of
    >>> all
    >>>>>>>>federal income taxes, the top 10% pay over 80% of all federal income
    >>> taxes.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> The validity of the claim depends on what you think "the burden"
    >>>>>>> means. If you consider that the group paying the highest percentage
    >>>>>>> of all income taxes paid has the burden, then the statement is wrong.
    >>>>>>> If you consider that the group paying out the highest percentage of
    >>>>>>> their income has the burden, then the statement is correct.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>There's no obfuscating on this. The "rich" pay their fair share while the
    >>>>>>bottom 50% of income earners pay zero federal income taxes. The top 10%
    >>>>>>of
    >>>>>>earners are shouldering the tax burden for 80% of the country. That is
    >>> quite
    >>>>>>a
    >>>>>>"burden" no matter how you try to spin it.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>> Speaking of spin...the original statement deals with the middle class.
    >>>>> What you have pointed out is that the *bottom* 50% of the wage earners
    >>>>> pay no taxes.
    >>>>
    >>>>I pointed out a lot more than that and I'm not the one trying to spin this
    >>>>one
    >>>
    >>>>Tony, you are.
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>>That "pay zero federal income taxes" is spin.
    >>>
    >>>The bottom 50% of the wage earners loan the government money for
    >>>twelve months of the year. If they're earning a wage, withholding is
    >>>taken out. They may get back part or all of that money as a refund,
    >>>but they don't have use of the money until the refund is received.
    >>>
    >>>Also "spin" is "fair share".

    >>
    >>If they get it all back, then they paid "NO" taxes!

    >
    > Like most things in this area, it depends on your viewpoint. If you
    > loan someone $100 a month for twelve months, and then get that money
    > back in the thirteenth month, you are out of pocket from $100 to
    > $1,200 during the year. The person you loan the money to has the use
    > of that money for the twelve months.


    And they have the choice to change the witholding amount. This is a crazy
    argument you're trying to make.
     
    Pete Stavrakoglou, Dec 15, 2011
    #60
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