Re: an excellent read from the ACLU

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Mike Benveniste, Sep 14, 2011.

  1. Mike Benveniste

    tony cooper Guest

    On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 13:18:55 +1100, "Trevor" <> wrote:

    >
    >"PeterN" <> wrote in message
    >news:4ee67a66$0$22982$-secrets.com...
    >>> As smart people know, you can't con an honest man, it takes a gun or
    >>> government to rob him instead :-(
    >>>

    >>
    >> Were they forced to buy?

    >
    >Governments do the buying with taxpayers money, taxpayers rarely have any
    >say in it.


    The government employees who do the buying are, themselves, taxpayers.
    In fact, they are sharing the burden more than many since they are
    employed - usually at rather good salaries - and paying income taxes,
    property taxes, and taxes on purchases.

    >>> Was there coercion?

    >


    --
    Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
     
    tony cooper, Dec 13, 2011
    #21
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  2. Mike Benveniste

    Trevor Guest

    "tony cooper" <> wrote in message
    news:p...
    >>Governments do the buying with taxpayers money, taxpayers rarely have any
    >>say in it.

    >
    > The government employees who do the buying are, themselves, taxpayers.
    > In fact, they are sharing the burden more than many since they are
    > employed - usually at rather good salaries


    That's the problem, it's not their money they waste, and they usually have a
    far better life style than many others.


    >and paying income taxes, property taxes, and taxes on purchases.


    Which is why they love flat taxes so much. The old days of progressive taxes
    where those who could afford it actually paid more, are just about gone
    unfortunately. The new paradigm is the richer you are, the better the
    accountant you can afford, shelf companies you can set up, family trusts you
    can utilise, off shore tax havens you can register, and the less tax you
    actually pay. The tax burdon now falls almost entirely on the middle class
    and poorest members of the community because they have no ability to escape
    it.

    Trevor.
     
    Trevor, Dec 13, 2011
    #22
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  3. Mike Benveniste

    PeterN Guest

    On 12/12/2011 9:18 PM, Trevor wrote:
    > "PeterN"<> wrote in message
    > news:4ee67a66$0$22982$-secrets.com...
    >>> As smart people know, you can't con an honest man, it takes a gun or
    >>> government to rob him instead :-(
    >>>

    >>
    >> Were they forced to buy?

    >
    > Governments do the buying with taxpayers money, taxpayers rarely have any
    > say in it.
    >
    >> Was there coercion?

    >
    > Governments control the police force, armies, national guard, security
    > agencies etc. How much more coercion do you need! :)


    Here is the contest of my question/comment. Your Snipping clearly shows
    intellectual dishonesty?



    You said: "> It was the US banks that sold them truck loads of worthless
    junk bonds though. Stupid of the Europeans to think US banks were
    motivated by anything other than outright greed though, which of course
    is what the Eurpopeans > were also doing when they bought them!
    As smart people know, you can't con an honest man, it takes a gun or
    government to rob him instead..."

    that way the comment to which I asked my question. Your response to my
    question was a meaningless rant

    EOD.
    >




    --
    Peter
     
    PeterN, Dec 13, 2011
    #23
  4. "Trevor" <> wrote in message
    news:jc6pnp$moj$...
    >
    > "tony cooper" <> wrote in message
    > news:p...
    >>>Governments do the buying with taxpayers money, taxpayers rarely have any
    >>>say in it.

    >>
    >> The government employees who do the buying are, themselves, taxpayers.
    >> In fact, they are sharing the burden more than many since they are
    >> employed - usually at rather good salaries

    >
    > That's the problem, it's not their money they waste, and they usually have a
    > far better life style than many others.
    >
    >
    >>and paying income taxes, property taxes, and taxes on purchases.

    >
    > Which is why they love flat taxes so much. The old days of progressive taxes
    > where those who could afford it actually paid more, are just about gone
    > unfortunately. The new paradigm is the richer you are, the better the
    > accountant you can afford, shelf companies you can set up, family trusts you
    > can utilise, off shore tax havens you can register, and the less tax you
    > actually pay. The tax burdon now falls almost entirely on the middle class and
    > poorest members of the community because they have no ability to escape it.
    >
    > Trevor.


    Your claim tha the burden falls on the middle class is wrong. 40% of all
    federal income taxes are paid by the top 1%, the top 5% pay over 70% of all
    federal income taxes, the top 10% pay over 80% of all federal income taxes.
     
    Pete Stavrakoglou, Dec 13, 2011
    #24
  5. "Trevor" <> wrote in message
    news:jc6cab$rvn$...
    >
    > "Pete Stavrakoglou" <> wrote in message
    > news:jc4unk$koj$...
    >>
    >> Greece is in the state it's in because of government spending, overly
    >> generous government benefits, lack of adequate tax collection,

    >
    > Dead right there, just as the US would be OK *IF* they actually collected
    > taxes from the rich and big corporations.
    > It's certainly not the poor where most of the money went in either country!
    >
    > Trevor.


    Per my last post. The top 1% pay over 40% of all federal income taxes, the top
    5% over 70% and te top 10% over 80%. You can take all of the money rich people
    have and it would not put a dent in the deficit because our federal government
    has an insatiable appetite to spend.
     
    Pete Stavrakoglou, Dec 13, 2011
    #25
  6. Mike Benveniste

    J. Clarke Guest

    In article <jc7krd$eke$>, says...
    >
    > "Trevor" <> wrote in message
    > news:jc6cab$rvn$...
    > >
    > > "Pete Stavrakoglou" <> wrote in message
    > > news:jc4unk$koj$...
    > >>
    > >> Greece is in the state it's in because of government spending, overly
    > >> generous government benefits, lack of adequate tax collection,

    > >
    > > Dead right there, just as the US would be OK *IF* they actually collected
    > > taxes from the rich and big corporations.
    > > It's certainly not the poor where most of the money went in either country!
    > >
    > > Trevor.

    >
    > Per my last post. The top 1% pay over 40% of all federal income taxes, the top
    > 5% over 70% and te top 10% over 80%.


    Source?

    > You can take all of the money rich people
    > have and it would not put a dent in the deficit because our federal government
    > has an insatiable appetite to spend.
     
    J. Clarke, Dec 13, 2011
    #26
  7. Mike Benveniste

    tony cooper Guest

    On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 17:02:09 +1100, "Trevor" <> wrote:

    >
    >"tony cooper" <> wrote in message
    >news:p...
    >>>Governments do the buying with taxpayers money, taxpayers rarely have any
    >>>say in it.

    >>
    >> The government employees who do the buying are, themselves, taxpayers.
    >> In fact, they are sharing the burden more than many since they are
    >> employed - usually at rather good salaries

    >
    >That's the problem, it's not their money they waste, and they usually have a
    >far better life style than many others.
    >

    I love the way you deflect where it is pointed out that you are in
    error and plunge on from there.
    >
    >>and paying income taxes, property taxes, and taxes on purchases.

    >
    >Which is why they love flat taxes so much. The old days of progressive taxes
    >where those who could afford it actually paid more, are just about gone
    >unfortunately. The new paradigm is the richer you are, the better the
    >accountant you can afford, shelf companies you can set up, family trusts you
    >can utilise, off shore tax havens you can register, and the less tax you
    >actually pay. The tax burdon now falls almost entirely on the middle class
    >and poorest members of the community because they have no ability to escape
    >it.


    Where do you get the idea that government employees love the flat tax
    approach?
    --
    Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
     
    tony cooper, Dec 13, 2011
    #27
  8. Mike Benveniste

    tony cooper Guest

    On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 08:41:46 -0500, "Pete Stavrakoglou"
    <> wrote:

    >"Trevor" <> wrote in message
    >news:jc6pnp$moj$...
    >>
    >> "tony cooper" <> wrote in message
    >> news:p...
    >>>>Governments do the buying with taxpayers money, taxpayers rarely have any
    >>>>say in it.
    >>>
    >>> The government employees who do the buying are, themselves, taxpayers.
    >>> In fact, they are sharing the burden more than many since they are
    >>> employed - usually at rather good salaries

    >>
    >> That's the problem, it's not their money they waste, and they usually have a
    >> far better life style than many others.
    >>
    >>
    >>>and paying income taxes, property taxes, and taxes on purchases.

    >>
    >> Which is why they love flat taxes so much. The old days of progressive taxes
    >> where those who could afford it actually paid more, are just about gone
    >> unfortunately. The new paradigm is the richer you are, the better the
    >> accountant you can afford, shelf companies you can set up, family trusts you
    >> can utilise, off shore tax havens you can register, and the less tax you
    >> actually pay. The tax burdon now falls almost entirely on the middle class and
    >> poorest members of the community because they have no ability to escape it.
    >>
    >> Trevor.

    >
    >Your claim tha the burden falls on the middle class is wrong. 40% of all
    >federal income taxes are paid by the top 1%, the top 5% pay over 70% of all
    >federal income taxes, the top 10% pay over 80% of all federal income taxes.
    >

    The validity of the claim depends on what you think "the burden"
    means. If you consider that the group paying the highest percentage
    of all income taxes paid has the burden, then the statement is wrong.
    If you consider that the group paying out the highest percentage of
    their income has the burden, then the statement is correct.


    --
    Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
     
    tony cooper, Dec 13, 2011
    #28
  9. "J. Clarke" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > In article <jc7krd$eke$>, says...
    >>
    >> "Trevor" <> wrote in message
    >> news:jc6cab$rvn$...
    >> >
    >> > "Pete Stavrakoglou" <> wrote in message
    >> > news:jc4unk$koj$...
    >> >>
    >> >> Greece is in the state it's in because of government spending, overly
    >> >> generous government benefits, lack of adequate tax collection,
    >> >
    >> > Dead right there, just as the US would be OK *IF* they actually collected
    >> > taxes from the rich and big corporations.
    >> > It's certainly not the poor where most of the money went in either country!
    >> >
    >> > Trevor.

    >>
    >> Per my last post. The top 1% pay over 40% of all federal income taxes, the
    >> top
    >> 5% over 70% and te top 10% over 80%.

    >
    > Source?


    Source is the IRS, a little checking will turn it up
    http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/indtaxstats/article/0,,id=133521,00.html

    >> You can take all of the money rich people
    >> have and it would not put a dent in the deficit because our federal
    >> government
    >> has an insatiable appetite to spend.

    >
    >
     
    Pete Stavrakoglou, Dec 13, 2011
    #29
  10. "tony cooper" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 08:41:46 -0500, "Pete Stavrakoglou"
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >>"Trevor" <> wrote in message
    >>news:jc6pnp$moj$...
    >>>
    >>> "tony cooper" <> wrote in message
    >>> news:p...
    >>>>>Governments do the buying with taxpayers money, taxpayers rarely have any
    >>>>>say in it.
    >>>>
    >>>> The government employees who do the buying are, themselves, taxpayers.
    >>>> In fact, they are sharing the burden more than many since they are
    >>>> employed - usually at rather good salaries
    >>>
    >>> That's the problem, it's not their money they waste, and they usually have a
    >>> far better life style than many others.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>and paying income taxes, property taxes, and taxes on purchases.
    >>>
    >>> Which is why they love flat taxes so much. The old days of progressive taxes
    >>> where those who could afford it actually paid more, are just about gone
    >>> unfortunately. The new paradigm is the richer you are, the better the
    >>> accountant you can afford, shelf companies you can set up, family trusts you
    >>> can utilise, off shore tax havens you can register, and the less tax you
    >>> actually pay. The tax burdon now falls almost entirely on the middle class
    >>> and
    >>> poorest members of the community because they have no ability to escape it.
    >>>
    >>> Trevor.

    >>
    >>Your claim tha the burden falls on the middle class is wrong. 40% of all
    >>federal income taxes are paid by the top 1%, the top 5% pay over 70% of all
    >>federal income taxes, the top 10% pay over 80% of all federal income taxes.
    >>

    > The validity of the claim depends on what you think "the burden"
    > means. If you consider that the group paying the highest percentage
    > of all income taxes paid has the burden, then the statement is wrong.
    > If you consider that the group paying out the highest percentage of
    > their income has the burden, then the statement is correct.


    There's no obfuscating on this. The "rich" pay their fair share while the
    bottom 50% of income earners pay zero federal income taxes. The top 10% of
    earners are shouldering the tax burden for 80% of the country. That is quite a
    "burden" no matter how you try to spin it.
     
    Pete Stavrakoglou, Dec 13, 2011
    #30
  11. Mike Benveniste

    tony cooper Guest

    On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 14:17:09 -0500, "Pete Stavrakoglou"
    <> wrote:

    >"tony cooper" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 08:41:46 -0500, "Pete Stavrakoglou"
    >> <> wrote:
    >>
    >>>"Trevor" <> wrote in message
    >>>news:jc6pnp$moj$...
    >>>>
    >>>> "tony cooper" <> wrote in message
    >>>> news:p...
    >>>>>>Governments do the buying with taxpayers money, taxpayers rarely have any
    >>>>>>say in it.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> The government employees who do the buying are, themselves, taxpayers.
    >>>>> In fact, they are sharing the burden more than many since they are
    >>>>> employed - usually at rather good salaries
    >>>>
    >>>> That's the problem, it's not their money they waste, and they usually have a
    >>>> far better life style than many others.
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>>and paying income taxes, property taxes, and taxes on purchases.
    >>>>
    >>>> Which is why they love flat taxes so much. The old days of progressive taxes
    >>>> where those who could afford it actually paid more, are just about gone
    >>>> unfortunately. The new paradigm is the richer you are, the better the
    >>>> accountant you can afford, shelf companies you can set up, family trusts you
    >>>> can utilise, off shore tax havens you can register, and the less tax you
    >>>> actually pay. The tax burdon now falls almost entirely on the middle class
    >>>> and
    >>>> poorest members of the community because they have no ability to escape it.
    >>>>
    >>>> Trevor.
    >>>
    >>>Your claim tha the burden falls on the middle class is wrong. 40% of all
    >>>federal income taxes are paid by the top 1%, the top 5% pay over 70% of all
    >>>federal income taxes, the top 10% pay over 80% of all federal income taxes.
    >>>

    >> The validity of the claim depends on what you think "the burden"
    >> means. If you consider that the group paying the highest percentage
    >> of all income taxes paid has the burden, then the statement is wrong.
    >> If you consider that the group paying out the highest percentage of
    >> their income has the burden, then the statement is correct.

    >
    >There's no obfuscating on this. The "rich" pay their fair share while the
    >bottom 50% of income earners pay zero federal income taxes. The top 10% of
    >earners are shouldering the tax burden for 80% of the country. That is quite a
    >"burden" no matter how you try to spin it.
    >

    Speaking of spin...the original statement deals with the middle class.
    What you have pointed out is that the *bottom* 50% of the wage earners
    pay no taxes.




    --
    Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
     
    tony cooper, Dec 13, 2011
    #31
  12. Mike Benveniste

    Trevor Guest

    "PeterN" <> wrote in message
    news:4ee6f453$0$721$-secrets.com...
    >>>> As smart people know, you can't con an honest man, it takes a gun or
    >>>> government to rob him instead :-(
    >>>
    >>> Were they forced to buy?

    >>
    >> Governments do the buying with taxpayers money, taxpayers rarely have any
    >> say in it.
    >>
    >>> Was there coercion?

    >>
    >> Governments control the police force, armies, national guard, security
    >> agencies etc. How much more coercion do you need! :)

    >
    > Here is the contest of my question/comment. Your Snipping clearly shows
    > intellectual dishonesty?


    Your trying to change the subject to something I never commented on shows
    intellectual dishonesty.


    > You said: "> It was the US banks that sold them truck loads of worthless
    > junk bonds though. Stupid of the Europeans to think US banks were
    > motivated by anything other than outright greed though, which of course
    > is what the Eurpopeans > were also doing when they bought them!
    > As smart people know, you can't con an honest man, it takes a gun or
    > government to rob him instead..."
    >
    > that way the comment to which I asked my question.


    So you are happy to ignore the rest of what I have said in the thread, and
    yet complain about my snipping?
    Google is there for people who can't remember what was posted, and don't
    have their own copy. Snipping simply highlights what is actually being
    referred to.

    >Your response to my question was a meaningless rant


    As opposed to your meaningless rant?

    Trevor.
     
    Trevor, Dec 14, 2011
    #32
  13. Mike Benveniste

    Trevor Guest

    "tony cooper" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 08:41:46 -0500, "Pete Stavrakoglou"
    > <> wrote:
    >>>>>Governments do the buying with taxpayers money, taxpayers rarely have
    >>>>>any
    >>>>>say in it.
    >>>>
    >>>> The government employees who do the buying are, themselves, taxpayers.
    >>>> In fact, they are sharing the burden more than many since they are
    >>>> employed - usually at rather good salaries
    >>>
    >>> That's the problem, it's not their money they waste, and they usually
    >>> have a
    >>> far better life style than many others.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>and paying income taxes, property taxes, and taxes on purchases.
    >>>
    >>> Which is why they love flat taxes so much. The old days of progressive
    >>> taxes
    >>> where those who could afford it actually paid more, are just about gone
    >>> unfortunately. The new paradigm is the richer you are, the better the
    >>> accountant you can afford, shelf companies you can set up, family trusts
    >>> you
    >>> can utilise, off shore tax havens you can register, and the less tax you
    >>> actually pay. The tax burdon now falls almost entirely on the middle
    >>> class and
    >>> poorest members of the community because they have no ability to escape
    >>> it.
    >>>

    >>
    >>Your claim tha the burden falls on the middle class is wrong. 40% of all
    >>federal income taxes are paid by the top 1%, the top 5% pay over 70% of
    >>all
    >>federal income taxes, the top 10% pay over 80% of all federal income
    >>taxes.
    >>

    > The validity of the claim depends on what you think "the burden"
    > means. If you consider that the group paying the highest percentage
    > of all income taxes paid has the burden, then the statement is wrong.
    > If you consider that the group paying out the highest percentage of
    > their income has the burden, then the statement is correct.



    I seriuosly doubt it is correct in either case, and *certainly* not in
    Australia. But I do note he purposely limits the argument *solely* to
    "federal income taxes" and not TOTAL tax revenue, federal, state and local,
    which is the only meaningful statistic.

    Trevor.
     
    Trevor, Dec 14, 2011
    #33
  14. Mike Benveniste

    Trevor Guest

    "Pete Stavrakoglou" <> wrote in message
    news:jc88bm$dn6$...
    > There's no obfuscating on this. The "rich" pay their fair share while the
    > bottom 50% of income earners pay zero federal income taxes. The top 10%
    > of earners are shouldering the tax burden for 80% of the country. That is
    > quite a "burden" no matter how you try to spin it.


    *IF* it were actually true, *and* IF there were no other federal state and
    local taxes, levies, duties, excises etc. etc. then I might agree with you.
    Given the number of millionaires and billionares paying very little tax at
    all, it's hard to feel too sorry for them though. Still if they're paying so
    little, and it really is 80%, then it's no wonder the USA has such a
    deficit!!! And throwing mud at the Greeks is sort of glass house stuff :)

    Trevor.
     
    Trevor, Dec 14, 2011
    #34
  15. Mike Benveniste

    Trevor Guest

    "tony cooper" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 14:17:09 -0500, "Pete Stavrakoglou"
    > <> wrote:
    > Speaking of spin...the original statement deals with the middle class.
    > What you have pointed out is that the *bottom* 50% of the wage earners
    > pay no taxes.


    Bet they wish it were actually true! I know I do!!!!

    Trevor.
     
    Trevor, Dec 14, 2011
    #35
  16. Mike Benveniste

    Trevor Guest

    "tony cooper" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Where do you get the idea that government employees love the flat tax
    > approach?


    The high income ones you mentioned. It's the rich who keep pushing
    governments for lower progressive income tax and more flat taxes, and keep
    winning.
    Not all government employees are rich though, and there might even be one or
    two of the rich who aren't motivated by outright greed. Unfortunately nobody
    is listening to them.

    Trevor.
     
    Trevor, Dec 14, 2011
    #36
  17. "tony cooper" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 14:17:09 -0500, "Pete Stavrakoglou"
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >>"tony cooper" <> wrote in message
    >>news:...
    >>> On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 08:41:46 -0500, "Pete Stavrakoglou"
    >>> <> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>"Trevor" <> wrote in message
    >>>>news:jc6pnp$moj$...
    >>>>>
    >>>>> "tony cooper" <> wrote in message
    >>>>> news:p...
    >>>>>>>Governments do the buying with taxpayers money, taxpayers rarely have any
    >>>>>>>say in it.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> The government employees who do the buying are, themselves, taxpayers.
    >>>>>> In fact, they are sharing the burden more than many since they are
    >>>>>> employed - usually at rather good salaries
    >>>>>
    >>>>> That's the problem, it's not their money they waste, and they usually have
    >>>>> a
    >>>>> far better life style than many others.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>>and paying income taxes, property taxes, and taxes on purchases.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Which is why they love flat taxes so much. The old days of progressive
    >>>>> taxes
    >>>>> where those who could afford it actually paid more, are just about gone
    >>>>> unfortunately. The new paradigm is the richer you are, the better the
    >>>>> accountant you can afford, shelf companies you can set up, family trusts
    >>>>> you
    >>>>> can utilise, off shore tax havens you can register, and the less tax you
    >>>>> actually pay. The tax burdon now falls almost entirely on the middle class
    >>>>> and
    >>>>> poorest members of the community because they have no ability to escape
    >>>>> it.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Trevor.
    >>>>
    >>>>Your claim tha the burden falls on the middle class is wrong. 40% of all
    >>>>federal income taxes are paid by the top 1%, the top 5% pay over 70% of all
    >>>>federal income taxes, the top 10% pay over 80% of all federal income taxes.
    >>>>
    >>> The validity of the claim depends on what you think "the burden"
    >>> means. If you consider that the group paying the highest percentage
    >>> of all income taxes paid has the burden, then the statement is wrong.
    >>> If you consider that the group paying out the highest percentage of
    >>> their income has the burden, then the statement is correct.

    >>
    >>There's no obfuscating on this. The "rich" pay their fair share while the
    >>bottom 50% of income earners pay zero federal income taxes. The top 10% of
    >>earners are shouldering the tax burden for 80% of the country. That is quite
    >>a
    >>"burden" no matter how you try to spin it.
    >>

    > Speaking of spin...the original statement deals with the middle class.
    > What you have pointed out is that the *bottom* 50% of the wage earners
    > pay no taxes.


    I pointed out a lot more than that and I'm not the one trying to spin this one
    Tony, you are.
     
    Pete Stavrakoglou, Dec 14, 2011
    #37
  18. "Trevor" <> wrote in message
    news:jc9l1l$hip$...
    >
    > "tony cooper" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 08:41:46 -0500, "Pete Stavrakoglou"
    >> <> wrote:
    >>>>>>Governments do the buying with taxpayers money, taxpayers rarely have any
    >>>>>>say in it.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> The government employees who do the buying are, themselves, taxpayers.
    >>>>> In fact, they are sharing the burden more than many since they are
    >>>>> employed - usually at rather good salaries
    >>>>
    >>>> That's the problem, it's not their money they waste, and they usually have
    >>>> a
    >>>> far better life style than many others.
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>>and paying income taxes, property taxes, and taxes on purchases.
    >>>>
    >>>> Which is why they love flat taxes so much. The old days of progressive
    >>>> taxes
    >>>> where those who could afford it actually paid more, are just about gone
    >>>> unfortunately. The new paradigm is the richer you are, the better the
    >>>> accountant you can afford, shelf companies you can set up, family trusts
    >>>> you
    >>>> can utilise, off shore tax havens you can register, and the less tax you
    >>>> actually pay. The tax burdon now falls almost entirely on the middle class
    >>>> and
    >>>> poorest members of the community because they have no ability to escape it.
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>>Your claim tha the burden falls on the middle class is wrong. 40% of all
    >>>federal income taxes are paid by the top 1%, the top 5% pay over 70% of all
    >>>federal income taxes, the top 10% pay over 80% of all federal income taxes.
    >>>

    >> The validity of the claim depends on what you think "the burden"
    >> means. If you consider that the group paying the highest percentage
    >> of all income taxes paid has the burden, then the statement is wrong.
    >> If you consider that the group paying out the highest percentage of
    >> their income has the burden, then the statement is correct.

    >
    >
    > I seriuosly doubt it is correct in either case, and *certainly* not in
    > Australia. But I do note he purposely limits the argument *solely* to "federal
    > income taxes" and not TOTAL tax revenue, federal, state and local, which is
    > the only meaningful statistic.


    My figures are correct, check them out for yourself rather than just dismissing
    them. And about my "limiting" the argument solely to federal income taxes - the
    myriad of statem, city, and local taxes across the country make it almost
    impossible to gather that type of data for a usenet discussion. You're welcome
    to do it if you'd like. Still, the statistics I noted are correct, why do you
    have a problem with that?
     
    Pete Stavrakoglou, Dec 14, 2011
    #38
  19. Mike Benveniste

    PeterN Guest

    On 12/14/2011 2:53 AM, Trevor wrote:
    > "PeterN"<> wrote in message
    > news:4ee6f453$0$721$-secrets.com...
    >>>>> As smart people know, you can't con an honest man, it takes a gun or
    >>>>> government to rob him instead :-(
    >>>>
    >>>> Were they forced to buy?
    >>>
    >>> Governments do the buying with taxpayers money, taxpayers rarely have any
    >>> say in it.
    >>>
    >>>> Was there coercion?
    >>>
    >>> Governments control the police force, armies, national guard, security
    >>> agencies etc. How much more coercion do you need! :)

    >>
    >> Here is the contest of my question/comment. Your Snipping clearly shows
    >> intellectual dishonesty?

    >
    > Your trying to change the subject to something I never commented on shows
    > intellectual dishonesty.
    >
    >
    >> You said: "> It was the US banks that sold them truck loads of worthless
    >> junk bonds though. Stupid of the Europeans to think US banks were
    >> motivated by anything other than outright greed though, which of course
    >> is what the Eurpopeans> were also doing when they bought them!
    >> As smart people know, you can't con an honest man, it takes a gun or
    >> government to rob him instead..."
    >>
    >> that way the comment to which I asked my question.

    >
    > So you are happy to ignore the rest of what I have said in the thread, and
    > yet complain about my snipping?
    > Google is there for people who can't remember what was posted, and don't
    > have their own copy. Snipping simply highlights what is actually being
    > referred to.
    >
    >> Your response to my question was a meaningless rant

    >
    > As opposed to your meaningless rant?
    >
    > Trevor.
    >
    >


    That's a nice practice. when you do not care to give a proper response.
    you change the topic by making an unfounded statement about the poster.

    Say what you will. As you point out, the full context is there for
    anyone to see.


    EOD

    --
    Peter
     
    PeterN, Dec 14, 2011
    #39
  20. PeterN <> wrote:
    > On 12/10/2011 1:56 PM, Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote:
    >> PeterN<> wrote:
    >>> On 12/8/2011 3:29 PM, Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote:
    >>>> Savageduck<savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
    >>>>> On 2011-12-04 19:11:00 -0800, "Trevor"<> said:


    >>>>>> Why not, isn't it the capitalists in France causing that problem? Seems to
    >>>>>> me the US capitalists are far worse.


    >>>>> Just wait and see what the German capitalists have in mind for Europe.
    >>>>> <
    >>>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...uro-approach/2011/12/04/gIQAZebwTO_story.html


    >>>> Start behaving more responsible? 'orrible. The poor Greek ...
    >>>> imagine having to have money before spending it! It's the
    >>>> end of the world --- and all that because of US banks.


    >>> Please explain, in clear English, with supporting facts, exactly why it
    >>> is the fault of the US banking system.


    >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-2000s_financial_crisis
    >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-2000s_recession_in_Europe#Greece
    >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_European_sovereign_debt_crisis#Speculators


    > You have supplied links to the thoughts of others. YOUR interpretation
    > and thoughts are conspicuous by their absence.


    My interpretation and thoughts aren't needed for well known facts.
    BTW, you are drastically shifting goal posts. How about you
    explain, with facts(!), that the US banks had nothing to do
    with any global recession, and that a recession can never cause
    economies that need growth to survive to falter.

    If you manage that, you can become a well-paid ghost writer for
    some of the politicans further removed from reality.

    > No! I am not going to wade through unexplained links.
    > this paper gets an "F"


    You're not allowed to grade on shifted goal posts, assuming
    for a second you *were* capable of grading me in any subject in
    first place.

    -Wolfgang
     
    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Dec 14, 2011
    #40
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