<rant> freaking copyprotection on sudo CDs

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Dave - Dave.net.nz, Jul 5, 2004.

  1. My wife bought the latest Robbie Williams "CD" and was pissed off, to
    say the least that it wouldn't play in the Car CD-player, the changer,
    or three stereos in the house.

    I looked at it and noticed that it said "copy controlled" so I had a
    quick look at the almost invisible(white on yellow, WTF) miniscule
    print(smaller than 1mm in height) on the case, and found a URL.

    http://copycontrol.emi.com.au/

    which kindly redirects you to http://www.musichead.com.au/site/ which
    using their own search function, has no information on the copy control
    software used.

    so I biffed it into the computer, holding the shift key incase it is one
    of those pathetically designed peices of malware that makes you install
    a special media player, and what do you know, it is.

    burned CD so that my wife can actually use it, and all is good.

    I've sent an invoice to EMI for the time I spent finding out the
    information that they should have provided, and for the cost of a CDR.

    I await a response.

    </rant>
     
    Dave - Dave.net.nz, Jul 5, 2004
    #1
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  2. Dave - Dave.net.nz

    theseus Guest

    Dave - Dave.net.nz wrote:

    > My wife bought the latest Robbie Williams "CD" and was pissed off, to
    > say the least that it wouldn't play in the Car CD-player, the changer,
    > or three stereos in the house.
    >
    > I looked at it and noticed that it said "copy controlled" so I had a
    > quick look at the almost invisible(white on yellow, WTF) miniscule
    > print(smaller than 1mm in height) on the case, and found a URL.
    >
    > http://copycontrol.emi.com.au/
    >
    > which kindly redirects you to http://www.musichead.com.au/site/ which
    > using their own search function, has no information on the copy control
    > software used.
    >
    > so I biffed it into the computer, holding the shift key incase it is one
    > of those pathetically designed peices of malware that makes you install
    > a special media player, and what do you know, it is.
    >
    > burned CD so that my wife can actually use it, and all is good.
    >
    > I've sent an invoice to EMI for the time I spent finding out the
    > information that they should have provided, and for the cost of a CDR.
    >
    > I await a response.
    >
    > </rant>


    They will probably point out to you that what you did was against the law
    and it is also morally wrong to deprive "that fat dancer from Take
    That" (thanks Liam. that ones priceless) of the fruits of his labours, by
    stealing the content.
     
    theseus, Jul 5, 2004
    #2
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  3. theseus wrote:
    >>burned CD so that my wife can actually use it, and all is good.
    >>I've sent an invoice to EMI for the time I spent finding out the
    >>information that they should have provided, and for the cost of a CDR.
    >>I await a response.


    > They will probably point out to you that what you did was against the law
    > and it is also morally wrong to deprive "that fat dancer from Take
    > That" (thanks Liam. that ones priceless) of the fruits of his labours, by
    > stealing the content.


    yeah, figure, but it should be an interesting one.

    I'll let nz.comp know, or not if I get jail time heh :/
     
    Dave - Dave.net.nz, Jul 5, 2004
    #3
  4. Dave - Dave.net.nz

    ~misfit~ Guest

    Dave - Dave.net.nz wrote:
    > My wife bought the latest Robbie Williams "CD" and was pissed off, to
    > say the least that it wouldn't play in the Car CD-player, the changer,
    > or three stereos in the house.
    >
    > I looked at it and noticed that it said "copy controlled" so I had a
    > quick look at the almost invisible(white on yellow, WTF) miniscule
    > print(smaller than 1mm in height) on the case, and found a URL.
    >
    > http://copycontrol.emi.com.au/
    >
    > which kindly redirects you to http://www.musichead.com.au/site/ which
    > using their own search function, has no information on the copy
    > control software used.
    >
    > so I biffed it into the computer, holding the shift key incase it is
    > one of those pathetically designed peices of malware that makes you
    > install a special media player, and what do you know, it is.
    >
    > burned CD so that my wife can actually use it, and all is good.
    >
    > I've sent an invoice to EMI for the time I spent finding out the
    > information that they should have provided, and for the cost of a CDR.
    >
    > I await a response.
    >
    > </rant>


    I hope you charged them plenty. Bastards.
    --
    ~misfit~
     
    ~misfit~, Jul 5, 2004
    #4
  5. ~misfit~ wrote:
    >>burned CD so that my wife can actually use it, and all is good.
    >>I've sent an invoice to EMI for the time I spent finding out the
    >>information that they should have provided, and for the cost of a CDR.
    >>I await a response.


    > I hope you charged them plenty. Bastards.


    my standard computer work charge out rate($60/hour) for minimum 2.5
    hours, plus $7.50 for the CDR, plus a bit more for my wifes wasted time too.

    Came to ~$200
     
    Dave - Dave.net.nz, Jul 5, 2004
    #5
  6. Dave - Dave.net.nz

    theseus Guest

    Dave - Dave.net.nz wrote:

    > ~misfit~ wrote:
    >>>burned CD so that my wife can actually use it, and all is good.
    >>>I've sent an invoice to EMI for the time I spent finding out the
    >>>information that they should have provided, and for the cost of a CDR.
    >>>I await a response.

    >
    >> I hope you charged them plenty. Bastards.

    >
    > my standard computer work charge out rate($60/hour) for minimum 2.5
    > hours, plus $7.50 for the CDR, plus a bit more for my wifes wasted time
    > too.
    >
    > Came to ~$200


    Well thats nothing to a company like EMI is it ?
    I expect they will just say "Its a fair cop Dave, you've got us bang to
    rights and no mistake, we'll just have to cough up".
    As they do.
    I'm off to buy a Robbie Williams CD and some blanks, I reckon you are onto a
    real earner LOL
     
    theseus, Jul 5, 2004
    #6
  7. Dave - Dave.net.nz

    Mutlley Guest

    theseus <> wrote:

    >Dave - Dave.net.nz wrote:
    >
    >> ~misfit~ wrote:
    >>>>burned CD so that my wife can actually use it, and all is good.
    >>>>I've sent an invoice to EMI for the time I spent finding out the
    >>>>information that they should have provided, and for the cost of a CDR.
    >>>>I await a response.

    >>
    >>> I hope you charged them plenty. Bastards.

    >>
    >> my standard computer work charge out rate($60/hour) for minimum 2.5
    >> hours, plus $7.50 for the CDR, plus a bit more for my wifes wasted time
    >> too.
    >>
    >> Came to ~$200

    >
    >Well thats nothing to a company like EMI is it ?
    >I expect they will just say "Its a fair cop Dave, you've got us bang to
    >rights and no mistake, we'll just have to cough up".
    >As they do.


    Nah. They will send the feds to break down your door and lock you up
    for 10 years..
     
    Mutlley, Jul 5, 2004
    #7
  8. Dave - Dave.net.nz

    Alden Bates Guest

    "Dave - Dave.net.nz" <Dave@_no_spam_here_dave.net.nz> wrote:

    >My wife bought the latest Robbie Williams "CD" and was pissed off, to
    >say the least that it wouldn't play in the Car CD-player, the changer,
    >or three stereos in the house.
    >
    >I looked at it and noticed that it said "copy controlled" so I had a
    >quick look at the almost invisible(white on yellow, WTF) miniscule
    >print(smaller than 1mm in height) on the case, and found a URL.


    You'll have to get used to it, as EMI have said that they have a
    policy of putting copy protection on *all* of their releases outside
    the UK and US.

    Alden.
    --
    http://www.tetrap.com
     
    Alden Bates, Jul 5, 2004
    #8
  9. Alden Bates wrote:
    >>I looked at it and noticed that it said "copy controlled" so I had a
    >>quick look at the almost invisible(white on yellow, WTF) miniscule
    >>print(smaller than 1mm in height) on the case, and found a URL.


    > You'll have to get used to it, as EMI have said that they have a
    > policy of putting copy protection on *all* of their releases outside
    > the UK and US.


    I would have thought that the US would be a major source of copied
    CDs... heh, I wouldn't have bothered to copy it if it hadn't been for
    the protection.
     
    Dave - Dave.net.nz, Jul 5, 2004
    #9
  10. Dave - Dave.net.nz

    ~misfit~ Guest

    Alden Bates wrote:
    > "Dave - Dave.net.nz" <Dave@_no_spam_here_dave.net.nz> wrote:
    >
    >> My wife bought the latest Robbie Williams "CD" and was pissed off, to
    >> say the least that it wouldn't play in the Car CD-player, the
    >> changer, or three stereos in the house.
    >>
    >> I looked at it and noticed that it said "copy controlled" so I had a
    >> quick look at the almost invisible(white on yellow, WTF) miniscule
    >> print(smaller than 1mm in height) on the case, and found a URL.

    >
    > You'll have to get used to it, as EMI have said that they have a
    > policy of putting copy protection on *all* of their releases outside
    > the UK and US.


    And they'll get away with it if nobody kicks up a stink. Go Dave!!!!!
    --
    ~misfit~
     
    ~misfit~, Jul 5, 2004
    #10
  11. Dave - Dave.net.nz

    thing Guest

    theseus wrote:
    > Dave - Dave.net.nz wrote:
    >
    >
    >>My wife bought the latest Robbie Williams "CD" and was pissed off, to
    >>say the least that it wouldn't play in the Car CD-player, the changer,
    >>or three stereos in the house.
    >>
    >>I looked at it and noticed that it said "copy controlled" so I had a
    >>quick look at the almost invisible(white on yellow, WTF) miniscule
    >>print(smaller than 1mm in height) on the case, and found a URL.
    >>
    >>http://copycontrol.emi.com.au/
    >>
    >>which kindly redirects you to http://www.musichead.com.au/site/ which
    >>using their own search function, has no information on the copy control
    >>software used.
    >>
    >>so I biffed it into the computer, holding the shift key incase it is one
    >>of those pathetically designed peices of malware that makes you install
    >>a special media player, and what do you know, it is.
    >>
    >>burned CD so that my wife can actually use it, and all is good.
    >>
    >>I've sent an invoice to EMI for the time I spent finding out the
    >>information that they should have provided, and for the cost of a CDR.
    >>
    >>I await a response.
    >>
    >></rant>

    >
    >
    > They will probably point out to you that what you did was against the law
    > and it is also morally wrong to deprive "that fat dancer from Take
    > That" (thanks Liam. that ones priceless) of the fruits of his labours, by
    > stealing the content.


    In fact they might take him to court....

    Unlike the US there is no such thing as fair use in NZ (unless the law
    has changed in the last years or so) so making a duplicate and waving it
    under thier noses could well spell trouble.

    regards

    Thing
     
    thing, Jul 5, 2004
    #11
  12. Dave - Dave.net.nz

    samg Guest


    > You'll have to get used to it, as EMI have said that they have a
    > policy of putting copy protection on *all* of their releases outside
    > the UK and US.
    >

    yeah thatll stop ripped copies hitting the net :p
     
    samg, Jul 5, 2004
    #12
  13. In article <Xns951DC804D77ECsamg@203.97.37.6>, samg <> wrote:
    >
    >> You'll have to get used to it, as EMI have said that they have a
    >> policy of putting copy protection on *all* of their releases outside
    >> the UK and US.
    >>

    >yeah thatll stop ripped copies hitting the net :p


    You know this, I know this, but can you convince RIAA of this?

    The concept of analogue hole doesn't seem to have reached them. For as
    long as I can play CDs in my DiscMan with optical out, I can record them
    to my computer's hard drive through the optical in. Which means that,
    for as long as they make conventional CDs, there will be ways to make
    digital copies of them with zero loss.
     
    Matthew Poole, Jul 5, 2004
    #13
  14. Dave - Dave.net.nz

    Cheetah Guest

    thing wrote:


    > In fact they might take him to court....
    >
    > Unlike the US there is no such thing as fair use in NZ (unless the law
    > has changed in the last years or so) so making a duplicate and waving it
    > under thier noses could well spell trouble.


    But there is consumer protection law which says that a good must be fit for
    purpose. If you buy a CD and it doesn't work you should return it as
    defective.

    In this case copying it was wrong (legally at least), however, if he
    returned the CD via post asking for a refund - and enough other people did
    this - then perhaps they would get the message. Even better - don't buy it
    anymore.
     
    Cheetah, Jul 5, 2004
    #14
  15. Dave - Dave.net.nz

    Peter Guest

    Dave - Dave.net.nz wrote:
    > I looked at it and noticed that it said "copy controlled" so I had a
    > quick look at the almost invisible(white on yellow, WTF) miniscule
    > print(smaller than 1mm in height) on the case, and found a URL.


    The bit I don't understand is: why do these guys do that?
    Do they think it stops blackmarket copies being made and sold? Just check
    out any market in an Asian city.

    Do they think it stops people copying it for their friends? Just watch your
    average high school student to see how easy this is.

    The only effect I observe is reduced legitimate sales. There have been a
    couple of times when I wanted to buy a CD, but the music I wanted was only
    available on one of those "copy protected" things (which are not a CD).

    Those music corporations are crazy.


    Peter
     
    Peter, Jul 5, 2004
    #15
  16. Dave - Dave.net.nz

    Don Hills Guest

    In article <w28Gc.6489$>,
    Cheetah <> wrote:
    >
    >But there is consumer protection law which says that a good must be fit for
    >purpose. If you buy a CD and it doesn't work you should return it as
    >defective.



    Actually, the fact that the disc won't play in some CD and DVD players is
    not the biggest thing you have to worry about. Many of these discs are
    deliberately manufactured in a way that makes them unable to withstand even
    minor damage. Unless you treat the disc with extreme care so that it never
    gets scratched, it will develop skips and "mutes" (where the player goes
    silent for a moment as the disc plays). It's like selling rope with two of
    the three strands already cut, so that failure of the remaining strand
    causes total failure.

    Literally, we are being sold pre-damaged goods that just barely function. I
    can see why Philips insisted that such discs must not carry the "Compact
    Disc Digital Audio" logo. I've been law-abiding up until now, there are no
    ripped CDs in my collection and I don't rip copies for other people. But
    since the record companies have already decided that I'm a criminal and seen
    fit to penalise me, I no longer feel any loyalty to them.


    Most of the "Copy Controlled" logo discs currently available use a copy
    protection scheme developed by Midbar under the "Cactus" name and now owned
    by Macrovision. This scheme has three parts:


    ============
    The first part relies on the fact that a standard audio CD has only a single
    "session" containing all of the tracks, whereas a data CDROM can have more
    than one "session". Audio CD drives only read the first session, even if
    multiple sessions are present. Computer CD drives have to recognise multiple
    sessions. The protection scheme adds another session to the CD, and
    deliberately inserts errors in the session information so that a CDROM drive
    will be unable to resolve the sessions properly and will thus refuse to
    recognise part or all of the audio session.

    The problem with this is that some players use "CDROM" style reading for
    audio discs, for example discman and car players with anti-skip features.
    Many of these will fail to recognise "CC" discs. In spite of this, there are
    many computer CD drives that aren't fooled by the corrupt session
    information and will still allow you to rip the tracks.


    ============
    The second part adds an auto-running player program that is recognisable by
    the CDROM drive, plus compressed (MP3 quality) versions of the tracks. So
    although you can "play" the disc on your computer if you let the player
    software load, you won't get CD quality - just MP3 quality.

    Those first two parts are an annoyance, but at least you can get full CD
    quality by playing it in a standard CD or DVD player. If it doesn't play in
    your player, you are entitled to ask for your money back - the text on the
    packaging states that it is compatible with CD and DVD players. It must be
    fit for that purpose.


    ============
    The third part is the one that you should be most concerned about. It is
    optional, and I haven't seen it on every "CC" disc. It introduces deliberate
    errors into the actual audio data stored on the disc. When played on a CD
    player, the errors are "masked" (interpolated) by the player and are thus
    inaudible. But when "ripping" the CD, the errors are not masked and appear
    as occasional clicks and pops in the resulting audio.

    In order to do this, they deliberately break the error correction on the CD.
    Provided the CD is in perfect condition, it will appear to play normally.
    But if it has (or develops) a minor scratch or flaw that happens to coincide
    with the location of one of the "deliberate errors", it may be unable to
    conceal it. Players vary in their handling of this situation, but typically
    you will eiher hear a "click" or a momentary "mute".


    ============
    Here's a simplified technical explanation:

    The design of the data stream on a CD allows for the fact of life that
    errors will occur. It incorporates two stages of ECC (Error Checking and
    Correction) algorithms that can detect and correct multiple errors at a
    time. A badly scratched CD may have hundreds of errors per second in the
    basic data being read by the laser, yet they will almost always be detected
    and corrected. I'll bet you've seen CDs that look like they've been used as
    frisbees but still play correctly.

    If both stages of ECC are unable to correct the data and a bad audio sample
    is produced, there is one last resort. The player takes the sample before
    the bad one and the one after it, and creates a sample that is the average
    of the two (interpolation). Most of the time, this is a good enough guess
    and the result is inaudible. If two or more consecutive samples are bad, the
    player "gives up" and the result is an audible click or mute. I'll bet
    you've also heard this on a badly damaged CD.

    The Macrovision scheme deliberately inserts single incorrect samples, and
    simultaneously inserts incorrect error correction data. The player is thus
    unable to correct the errors, and must rely on interpolation to replace the
    bad sample. I'm not sure, but I believe the scheme deliberately chooses
    samples to corrupt that will result in the correct sample value being
    generated by the interpolation process.

    All will be well so long as the disc is otherwise error free. The CD
    specification allows for up to 220 basic errors per second, and most
    production pressed discs have error rates less than 5 or 10 per second. But
    if a real error happens to occur in the same blocks of data that contain the
    "deliberate errors", it is likely that two or more audio samples will be
    marked bad. This will result in the player being unable to interpolate it
    and result in an audible defect.

    As an aside, data CDs have yet another layer of ECC that allows correction
    of these errors, because guessing the right value (interpolation) isn't good
    enough for data <grin>. The space taken by this extra ECC data explains in
    part why you can't rip a full audio CD (74 minutes) to WAV files and then
    store the resulting files on a 650 MB data CD. Each "sector" on an audio CD
    contains 2532 bytes of data, whereas each sector on a data CDROM only
    contains 2048 bytes of data. The difference is the extra ECC data and sector
    IDs.


    --
    Don Hills (dmhills at attglobaldotnet) Wellington, New Zealand
    "I don't use Linux. I prefer to use an OS supported by a large multi-
    national vendor, with a good office suite, excellent network/internet
    software and decent hardware support."
     
    Don Hills, Jul 5, 2004
    #16
  17. Dave - Dave.net.nz

    theseus Guest

    Dave - Dave.net.nz wrote:

    > Alden Bates wrote:
    >>>I looked at it and noticed that it said "copy controlled" so I had a
    >>>quick look at the almost invisible(white on yellow, WTF) miniscule
    >>>print(smaller than 1mm in height) on the case, and found a URL.

    >
    >> You'll have to get used to it, as EMI have said that they have a
    >> policy of putting copy protection on *all* of their releases outside
    >> the UK and US.

    >
    > I would have thought that the US would be a major source of copied
    > CDs... heh, I wouldn't have bothered to copy it if it hadn't been for
    > the protection.


    It only takes one rip to propagate a cd everywhere, so from a p2p
    filesharing perspective this protection scheme is irrelevant.
    There are likely to be far more legit customer victims like Dave than there
    will be foiled piracy attempts.
    The record industry wants the regulators and the consumers to bear the cost
    of artificially trying to maintain the economics of the past where digital
    copying did not exist.
    What it will do is make people more likely to download a convenient online
    network copy and burn if they want to, rather than buy a copy which they
    might have trouble using with their computer audio stuff.
     
    theseus, Jul 5, 2004
    #17
  18. Dave - Dave.net.nz

    steve Guest

    thing wrote:

    > In fact they might take him to court....
    >
    > Unlike the US there is no such thing as fair use in NZ (unless the law
    > has changed in the last years or so) so making a duplicate and waving it
    > under thier noses could well spell trouble.


    There are many NZ laws like that. Legal hammers waiting to fall on people
    who make enough "noise".

    But left unenforced provided everyone keeps their head down and just gets on
    with it.

    The porn laws are one example. The wording says anyone who makes illegal
    stuff available is guilty - which techincally makes guilty any ISP or telco
    or airline or railway or transport company or bicycle courier - whatever!
    who ever accidentally or unknowingly conveyed illegal pornographic material
    - thereby making it available. The law says nothing about being aware of
    it.

    Of course the law is a nonsense......but it gives the police and internal
    affairs the ability to pounce on anyone if they choose to.
     
    steve, Jul 5, 2004
    #18
  19. Suddenly, Peter sprang forth and uttered these pithy words:
    > Those music corporations are crazy.


    I guess they just can't bear not to be in control. The only thing that
    would really make a difference is to stop selling, but that's even worse
    - no money! So they let the slick marketers persuade them that some
    heinous protection scheme will prevent a large percentage of copying and
    allow them to keep on selling. They get a warm fuzzy feeling that
    they've put those nasty customers into their place.


    --
    aaronl at consultant dot com
    For every expert, there is an equal and
    opposite expert. - Arthur C. Clarke
     
    Aaron Lawrence, Jul 5, 2004
    #19
  20. "Dave - Dave.net.nz" <Dave@_no_spam_here_dave.net.nz> wrote:
    > My wife bought the latest Robbie Williams "CD" and was pissed off, to
    > say the least that it wouldn't play in the Car CD-player, the changer,
    > or three stereos in the house.
    >


    sorry to get personal, but I think those machines have better musical
    taste than your wife ;-)
     
    J.Random Luser, Jul 5, 2004
    #20
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