Questions on IPTC information

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by R-ton, May 1, 2005.

  1. R-ton

    R-ton Guest

    Hello,

    Up to now, I have been using Canon Zoombrowser (ver. 3). I often use the
    "photo title" in order so save some information on the pictures. Newer
    versions of the Zoombrowser don't show this information completely anymore
    and I have no confidence in its database that is not "standard". (And that
    had some tendency to ... crash ; version 3 is better now)

    Now, after some experimentation with picasa2, I discovered IPTC. Is this
    really a standard ?
    In any case, the caption information is not stored IN the picture data
    itself, so there is still a kind of database, which should be backed-up.

    I am very surprised to see that an other program, Irfanview sees the IPTC
    information I have made with picasa2.
    Is there some system setting that refers to the location of IPTC information
    (which, in my case is in some Picasa called directory in documents and
    settings) ?

    Would you advice me to start using IPTC ?

    And if yes, is there any tool to convert the old Zoombrowser data into IPTC
    ?

    Thank you
    R-ton
    R-ton, May 1, 2005
    #1
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  2. "R-ton" <> writes:

    > Up to now, I have been using Canon Zoombrowser (ver. 3). I often use the
    > "photo title" in order so save some information on the pictures. Newer
    > versions of the Zoombrowser don't show this information completely anymore
    > and I have no confidence in its database that is not "standard". (And that
    > had some tendency to ... crash ; version 3 is better now)
    >
    > Now, after some experimentation with picasa2, I discovered IPTC. Is this
    > really a standard ?


    Yes. It was developed over in the photojournalism industry, I think
    by the magazines and/or wire services, to keep caption information
    associated with pictures reliably as they're shipped around the
    world. I'm using it a lot myself.

    > In any case, the caption information is not stored IN the picture data
    > itself, so there is still a kind of database, which should be backed-up.


    The IPTC information *is* stored in the image file -- in JPEG and
    TIFF, anyway. And PSD I think.

    > I am very surprised to see that an other program, Irfanview sees the IPTC
    > information I have made with picasa2.


    You'll find that Thumbs Plus also sees it. Also various Perl modules
    useful for writing web scripts :). And Photoshop sees it, too.

    > Is there some system setting that refers to the location of IPTC
    > information (which, in my case is in some Picasa called directory in
    > documents and settings) ?
    >
    > Would you advice me to start using IPTC ?


    I'm using it myself. I think of it as the digital equivalent of
    writing on the back of your snapshot prints. Remember how you cursed
    the people who kept old family photos *but didn't label them*? :)

    > And if yes, is there any tool to convert the old Zoombrowser data into IPTC
    > ?


    Sorry, I have not a clue about that point.
    --
    David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
    RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
    Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
    Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>
    David Dyer-Bennet, May 1, 2005
    #2
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  3. R-ton

    R-ton Guest

    Hello David,
    thanks for your reply !

    I don't mean to make this a "yes-no" discussion but...

    If , as you say, "The IPTC information *is* stored in the image file -- in
    JPEG and
    TIFF, anyway. . "
    .... then I don't understand that, after changing the caption, the JPG file
    does not obtain a new version date ;

    and I don' t understand that, If I take a copy of image 0001 for example ;
    then I change the caption of image 0001
    and then I replace image 0001 with its copy ...--> the caption remains ???

    Best Regards,
    R-ton



    "David Dyer-Bennet" <> schreef in bericht
    news:-b.net...
    > "R-ton" <> writes:
    >
    > > Up to now, I have been using Canon Zoombrowser (ver. 3). I often use the
    > > "photo title" in order so save some information on the pictures. Newer
    > > versions of the Zoombrowser don't show this information completely

    anymore
    > > and I have no confidence in its database that is not "standard". (And

    that
    > > had some tendency to ... crash ; version 3 is better now)
    > >
    > > Now, after some experimentation with picasa2, I discovered IPTC. Is

    this
    > > really a standard ?

    >
    > Yes. It was developed over in the photojournalism industry, I think
    > by the magazines and/or wire services, to keep caption information
    > associated with pictures reliably as they're shipped around the
    > world. I'm using it a lot myself.
    >
    > > In any case, the caption information is not stored IN the picture data
    > > itself, so there is still a kind of database, which should be backed-up.

    >
    > The IPTC information *is* stored in the image file -- in JPEG and
    > TIFF, anyway. And PSD I think.
    >
    > > I am very surprised to see that an other program, Irfanview sees the

    IPTC
    > > information I have made with picasa2.

    >
    > You'll find that Thumbs Plus also sees it. Also various Perl modules
    > useful for writing web scripts :). And Photoshop sees it, too.
    >
    > > Is there some system setting that refers to the location of IPTC
    > > information (which, in my case is in some Picasa called directory in
    > > documents and settings) ?
    > >
    > > Would you advice me to start using IPTC ?

    >
    > I'm using it myself. I think of it as the digital equivalent of
    > writing on the back of your snapshot prints. Remember how you cursed
    > the people who kept old family photos *but didn't label them*? :)
    >
    > > And if yes, is there any tool to convert the old Zoombrowser data into

    IPTC
    > > ?

    >
    > Sorry, I have not a clue about that point.
    > --
    > David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
    > RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
    > Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/>

    <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
    > Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>
    R-ton, May 1, 2005
    #3
  4. R-ton

    Guest

    "R-ton" <> wrote:

    >If , as you say, "The IPTC information *is* stored in the image file -- in
    >JPEG and
    >TIFF, anyway. . "
    >... then I don't understand that, after changing the caption, the JPG file
    >does not obtain a new version date ;


    Date stamps on files can be changed to anything you want them to be.
    When you add a caption, do lossless rotation, modify exif data, your
    software is keeping track of what the date/time was and then setting
    it back to original time.

    In *nux there is a command named touch, in the windows world I think a
    program just makes a OS call.


    Wes

    --
    Reply to:
    Whiskey Echo Sierra Sierra AT Alpha Charlie Echo Golf Romeo Oscar Paul dot Charlie Charlie
    Lycos address is a spam trap.
    , May 1, 2005
    #4
  5. "R-ton" <> writes:

    > Hello David,
    > thanks for your reply !
    >
    > I don't mean to make this a "yes-no" discussion but...
    >
    > If , as you say, "The IPTC information *is* stored in the image file -- in
    > JPEG and
    > TIFF, anyway. . "
    > ... then I don't understand that, after changing the caption, the JPG file
    > does not obtain a new version date ;


    The software is probably written to restore the file date, since for
    image files people often want the original date kept on it. Most of
    the software I've seen has this at least as an option.

    > and I don' t understand that, If I take a copy of image 0001 for example ;
    > then I change the caption of image 0001
    > and then I replace image 0001 with its copy ...--> the caption remains ???


    If I put IPTC info into a file, transfer that file to my web server,
    with appropriate HTML, view that page, save a copy of the file locally
    on a third system, and examine the IPTC info -- it'll be exactly what
    I put into the file initially on that first system. The information
    is stored in the file. I've read through the PERL code to read and
    write it. I've used a "hex editor" to look at the JPEG files and see
    the text of the IPTC information sitting there among the unreadable
    binary parts.

    Are you sure that the particular field you're altering, in the way
    you're altering it, is actually stored in the IPTC fields? I know I
    can put keywords either into IPTC fields, or into the Thumbs Plus
    database directly, or tell it to do both at once. It's easy for me to
    not actually be doing what I *think* I'm doing, and my strangest
    results have always turned out to be caused by something like that.
    --
    David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
    RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
    Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
    Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>
    David Dyer-Bennet, May 2, 2005
    #5
  6. R-ton

    R-ton Guest

    Yes, you're right, David and Wes !! !! !! It *is* stored in the image
    file.

    Actually, after replacing a picture with a different version (with a
    different caption)
    Picasa does not show the renewed caption immediately. Some time, or an
    explicit "refresh thumbnails" is needed.
    That's why I was misled.
    Picasa is holding a copy of the captions in the file imagedata_captions.pmp,
    probably for quick display of thumbnails.

    Now I'm convinced.
    This seems to be a much better system than keeping metadata in a separate
    Canon-made data base.

    Now I may hope to find some conversion program from Canon Database to IPTC.
    Otherwise .... : copy -- paste ...?

    Good "educational" remark, David :
    ">It's easy for me to
    > not actually be doing what I *think* I'm doing, and my strangest
    > results have always turned out to be caused by something like that. "


    Thanks
    R-ton



    "David Dyer-Bennet" <> schreef in bericht
    news:-b.net...
    > "R-ton" <> writes:
    >
    > > Hello David,
    > > thanks for your reply !
    > >
    > > I don't mean to make this a "yes-no" discussion but...
    > >
    > > If , as you say, "The IPTC information *is* stored in the image file --

    in
    > > JPEG and
    > > TIFF, anyway. . "
    > > ... then I don't understand that, after changing the caption, the JPG

    file
    > > does not obtain a new version date ;

    >
    > The software is probably written to restore the file date, since for
    > image files people often want the original date kept on it. Most of
    > the software I've seen has this at least as an option.
    >
    > > and I don' t understand that, If I take a copy of image 0001 for example

    ;
    > > then I change the caption of image 0001
    > > and then I replace image 0001 with its copy ...--> the caption remains

    ???
    >
    > If I put IPTC info into a file, transfer that file to my web server,
    > with appropriate HTML, view that page, save a copy of the file locally
    > on a third system, and examine the IPTC info -- it'll be exactly what
    > I put into the file initially on that first system. The information
    > is stored in the file. I've read through the PERL code to read and
    > write it. I've used a "hex editor" to look at the JPEG files and see
    > the text of the IPTC information sitting there among the unreadable
    > binary parts.
    >
    > Are you sure that the particular field you're altering, in the way
    > you're altering it, is actually stored in the IPTC fields? I know I
    > can put keywords either into IPTC fields, or into the Thumbs Plus
    > database directly, or tell it to do both at once. It's easy for me to
    > not actually be doing what I *think* I'm doing, and my strangest
    > results have always turned out to be caused by something like that.
    > --
    > David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
    > RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
    > Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/>

    <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
    > Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>
    R-ton, May 2, 2005
    #6
  7. "R-ton" <> writes:

    > Yes, you're right, David and Wes !! !! !! It *is* stored in the image
    > file.
    >
    > Actually, after replacing a picture with a different version (with a
    > different caption)
    > Picasa does not show the renewed caption immediately. Some time, or an
    > explicit "refresh thumbnails" is needed.
    > That's why I was misled.
    > Picasa is holding a copy of the captions in the file imagedata_captions.pmp,
    > probably for quick display of thumbnails.
    >
    > Now I'm convinced.
    > This seems to be a much better system than keeping metadata in a separate
    > Canon-made data base.


    Good! I'd hate to think that I'd gone *completely* delusional so
    young.

    > Now I may hope to find some conversion program from Canon Database to IPTC.
    > Otherwise .... : copy -- paste ...?
    >
    > Good "educational" remark, David :
    > ">It's easy for me to
    >> not actually be doing what I *think* I'm doing, and my strangest
    >> results have always turned out to be caused by something like that. "


    Thanks; glad it helped.
    --
    David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
    RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
    Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
    Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>
    David Dyer-Bennet, May 2, 2005
    #7
  8. On Sun, 01 May 2005 13:29:23 GMT
    In message <TQ4de.78467$-ops.be>
    "R-ton" <> wrote:

    > ...
    > Would you advice me to start using IPTC ?


    Be aware that images with IPTC information
    will not display on an EPSON P-2000.

    Jeff
    Laptop Computer, May 4, 2005
    #8
  9. Rely more on the stability of the IPTC standard than on the life
    expectancy of EPSON. Use appropriate software as e.g. Thumbsplus or
    others and forget the rest.

    AFH

    Laptop Computer schrieb:

    > On Sun, 01 May 2005 13:29:23 GMT
    > In message <TQ4de.78467$-ops.be>
    > "R-ton" <> wrote:
    >
    > > ...
    > > Would you advice me to start using IPTC ?

    >
    > Be aware that images with IPTC information
    > will not display on an EPSON P-2000.
    >
    > Jeff
    A.F. Hobbacher, May 4, 2005
    #9
  10. R-ton

    Confused Guest

    On Wed, 04 May 2005 09:45:00 +0200
    In message <>
    "A.F. Hobbacher" <> wrote:

    > Rely more on the stability of the IPTC standard than on the life
    > expectancy of EPSON. Use appropriate software as e.g. Thumbsplus or
    > others and forget the rest.


    I use ThumbsPlus on the wintel and iViewMedia Pro on the macapple.

    As far as the P2000 goes, I was just sayin' for anyone interested.
    It's a decent portable HD/CF reader/Display that's proven to be
    reliable to date. Anyone who owns a P2000 has discovered that putting
    galleries back onto the device for showing around requires "special
    attention" to have them orderly and look good. I was pointing out a
    glitch with IPTC data (which I added with the latest update of TP).

    Regarding IPTC and EXIF standards, it would be nice if both hardware
    and firmware programmers would actually read and adhere to the specs.

    I haven't read the specifications...they could be obscure. If
    Microsoft had anything to do with them then the specs ARE obscure...

    Jeff (recovering from an operator induced configuration error;-)
    Confused, May 5, 2005
    #10
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