Questions on Canon 300D and etc. questions regarding digital photography

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Progressiveabsolution, Mar 23, 2005.

  1. I am very new to this area of photography and so my questions may be
    basic in nature. These are the questions I have:

    1) This question pertains to photo quality ONLY. All the features and
    what have yous are obviously going to vary camera to camera, but I'm
    only concerned with the photo quality. Granted this, digital camera
    technology advances quickly everyday and there are mega dollar bodies
    out there. What seperates this body from any that are out there now
    and to come in future granted the same glass (lens) is on each body? In
    other words, is there a limitation to this camera's body that would
    make someone "upgrade" now or ever?...again, these questions only
    having to do with a camera's body and it's capabilities to produce a
    photograph.

    2) Can any non-dslr camera compete with a dslr in image quality?
    Again, another image quality question since I'm only interested in the
    quality of the photo.

    3) I have been recently made aware that older lenses can mount on the
    300D. Is it worth using an older (but good) lens Vs. the new ones made
    specifically for the 300D? Take for example, something older that
    Canon produced vs. one of their L series lenses. The reason I ask this
    is because I wonder if the reason to get the newer lenses may have more
    to do with the weight vs. the older ones or maybe also less noise,
    smoother functioning, etc. Again, only interested in photo quality and
    trying to figure out if the older lenses can compete with the newer
    ones.

    4) Lastly, is the "hack/Wasia" firmware a good "upgrade" or is this
    something debatable based on personal use and preference?


    Thank you for your help!!!
    Mike
     
    Progressiveabsolution, Mar 23, 2005
    #1
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  2. Progressiveabsolution wrote:
    []
    > 2) Can any non-dslr camera compete with a dslr in image quality?
    > Again, another image quality question since I'm only interested in the
    > quality of the photo.


    Mike, that's another of those "how long is a piece of string?" questions.
    If you have a good non-DSLR, and you use it at its minimum sensitivity
    setting, sensible lens settings etc. you might be hard pressed to tell the
    difference on an A4 print (for example).

    You could equally contrive photographic situations which suited one camera
    or the other far better, and get a different answer. At higher ISO
    settings DSLRs win, but with a size, weight, bulk and cost penalty.

    If quality is your prime concern, some would say to forget 35mm. Where
    are /you/ going to draw the line?

    David
     
    David J Taylor, Mar 23, 2005
    #2
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  3. Progressiveabsolution

    Chris Brown Guest

    In article <>,
    Progressiveabsolution <> wrote:

    >2) Can any non-dslr camera compete with a dslr in image quality?
    >Again, another image quality question since I'm only interested in the
    >quality of the photo.


    The Epson RD-1, certainly, especially given that it can use rangefinder
    lenses, which are often optically very good indeed.

    Apart from that, probably not.
     
    Chris Brown, Mar 23, 2005
    #3
  4. Progressiveabsolution

    Matt Ion Guest

    Re: Questions on Canon 300D and etc. questions regarding digitalphotography

    Progressiveabsolution wrote:
    > I am very new to this area of photography and so my questions may be
    > basic in nature. These are the questions I have:
    >
    > 1) This question pertains to photo quality ONLY. All the features and
    > what have yous are obviously going to vary camera to camera, but I'm
    > only concerned with the photo quality. Granted this, digital camera
    > technology advances quickly everyday and there are mega dollar bodies
    > out there. What seperates this body from any that are out there now
    > and to come in future granted the same glass (lens) is on each body? In
    > other words, is there a limitation to this camera's body that would
    > make someone "upgrade" now or ever?...again, these questions only
    > having to do with a camera's body and it's capabilities to produce a
    > photograph.


    At the very minimum, a camera is simply a box that holds a lens in front
    of a piece of film... or to modernize the definition, some other
    image-recording substance. After that, the main difference from one
    camera to the next essentially boils down to bells and whistles.

    With digital though, you add to the mix, the quality of the
    light-recording mechanism (generally CCD or CMOS sensor).

    Generally, none of these items can be "upgraded", whether you're talking
    film or digital. Only a very few high-end cameras will let you change
    out the sensor (some will let you select between film and digital backs
    on the same camera). Hardware-wise, what you buy is what you're stuck
    with forever, unless you're really good with a magnifying glass and very
    small tools.

    Digitals do also have the advent of firmware, the semi-hardcoded
    software that runs things, and that can often be upgraded to fix
    problems and add/enable/change some functionality, but again, those are
    typically bells and whistles, and basic functions and image quality are
    still mainly limited by the design of the hardware.

    Short answer then: there is and probably never will be any way to
    "upgrade" any camera body to improve image quality (the exception being,
    again, high-end systems with interchangeable backs). Once you have a
    body, the only thing that will affect image quality will be the quality
    of the glass you put in front of it. (And just to nip the inevitable
    arguments in the bud, I'm not talking about things affected by camera
    shake, poor focus, bad exposure, etc; I'm keeping with the OP's concern
    of "best possible" quality and "all else being equal".)

    > 2) Can any non-dSLR camera compete with a dSLR in image quality?
    > Again, another image quality question since I'm only interested in the
    > quality of the photo.


    The two main things that affect quality in a digital camera are the
    design and construction of the lens, and the capabilities of the sensor.
    It certainly is possible to build a non-dSLR (aka ZLR) digital with
    equivalent optics and sensor to those in an SLR, but the ZLR would end
    up being pretty much the same size, weight and cost as the SLR, without
    the advantage of being able to swap out the lens, which is not a very
    good selling point. ZLRs tend to use smaller sensors, which allows them
    to use smaller lenses, making them lighter, more compact, and in the end
    cheaper, at the expense of maximum available quality.

    Whether the difference in quality is significant or noticeable to you is
    entirely subjective, of course.

    > 3) I have been recently made aware that older lenses can mount on the
    > 300D. Is it worth using an older (but good) lens Vs. the new ones made
    > specifically for the 300D? Take for example, something older that
    > Canon produced vs. one of their L series lenses. The reason I ask this
    > is because I wonder if the reason to get the newer lenses may have more
    > to do with the weight vs. the older ones or maybe also less noise,
    > smoother functioning, etc. Again, only interested in photo quality and
    > trying to figure out if the older lenses can compete with the newer
    > ones.


    Any Canon EF-mount lenses (ie. those designed for EOS-series cameras,
    including the L-series glass) will work on the 300D, or any other
    current Canon dSLRs. Those with the old FD-mount from the Canon
    manual-focus cameras won't work, but the EOS has been around for a good,
    oh, 15-20 years now, and has a pretty substantial lineup on its own. If
    you have some old FD lenses that you're really adamant about using,
    there are adapters available that will let them work, with reduced
    functionality (obviously, no AF), but I wouldn't let this particular
    "limitation" be a concern.

    > 4) Lastly, is the "hack/Wasia" firmware a good "upgrade" or is this
    > something debatable based on personal use and preference?


    It enables several functions that the camera has in common with the 10D,
    but that are disabled in the software; again, whether this are useful to
    you or not is subjective. None of them directly affect image quality.
    I installed it on my 300D within a week of buying it and have seen no
    ill effects, and I've not heard of anyone else having any problems with
    it either. Personally, I'd recommend installing it.
     
    Matt Ion, Mar 23, 2005
    #4
  5. > > 3) I have been recently made aware that older lenses can mount on the
    > > 300D. Is it worth using an older (but good) lens Vs. the new ones made
    > > specifically for the 300D? Take for example, something older that
    > > Canon produced vs. one of their L series lenses. The reason I ask this
    > > is because I wonder if the reason to get the newer lenses may have more
    > > to do with the weight vs. the older ones or maybe also less noise,
    > > smoother functioning, etc. Again, only interested in photo quality and
    > > trying to figure out if the older lenses can compete with the newer
    > > ones.

    >
    > Any Canon EF-mount lenses (ie. those designed for EOS-series cameras,
    > including the L-series glass) will work on the 300D, or any other
    > current Canon dSLRs. Those with the old FD-mount from the Canon
    > manual-focus cameras won't work, but the EOS has been around for a good,
    > oh, 15-20 years now, and has a pretty substantial lineup on its own. If
    > you have some old FD lenses that you're really adamant about using,
    > there are adapters available that will let them work, with reduced
    > functionality (obviously, no AF), but I wouldn't let this particular
    > "limitation" be a concern.


    I know you have specifically mentioned old Canon lenses are compatible. I'd
    just like to add that some aftermarket lenses are not compatible. I have a
    Sigma 28 -70 lens that I used to use with my Canon 100 EOS however it just
    gives ERR 99 on my new 300D. I have since spoke to Sigma and they say
    certain lenses can be chipped to work with a DSLR but unfortunately not
    mine.

    Steven.
     
    Steven Campbell, Mar 23, 2005
    #5
  6. "You could equally contrive photographic situations which suited one
    camera
    or the other far better, and get a different answer."


    Hi David. What situations would both be equal at and in what
    situations would one excel over the other? I'm trying to get a clear
    idea for my own personal use with photography to make the decision one
    way or the other. I like taking photos of
    flowers/nature/landscapes/night photography if that is possible with
    P&S cameras, etc. For example, MOST of my photos with my Olympus C4000
    were of the sunset. I don't do any action photography. Thanks for
    your comments/help!
     
    Progressiveabsolution, Mar 23, 2005
    #6
  7. Progressiveabsolution

    be_pissed Guest

    Re: Questions on Canon 300D and etc. questions regarding digitalphotography

    Matt Ion wrote:
    <snip>
    >> 4) Lastly, is the "hack/Wasia" firmware a good "upgrade" or is this
    >> something debatable based on personal use and preference?

    >
    >
    > It enables several functions that the camera has in common with the 10D,
    > but that are disabled in the software; again, whether this are useful to
    > you or not is subjective. None of them directly affect image quality. I
    > installed it on my 300D within a week of buying it and have seen no ill
    > effects, and I've not heard of anyone else having any problems with it
    > either. Personally, I'd recommend installing it.


    Agreed, I've had the hack running for around a year without problems. If
    I had to be given another 300D fresh out the box, the hack upgrade
    would be one of the first things I'd do. It's quick amd easy.. say no
    more :)

    TJ
     
    be_pissed, Mar 23, 2005
    #7
  8. Progressiveabsolution wrote:
    > "You could equally contrive photographic situations which suited one
    > camera
    > or the other far better, and get a different answer."
    >
    >
    > Hi David. What situations would both be equal at and in what
    > situations would one excel over the other? I'm trying to get a clear
    > idea for my own personal use with photography to make the decision one
    > way or the other. I like taking photos of
    > flowers/nature/landscapes/night photography if that is possible with
    > P&S cameras, etc. For example, MOST of my photos with my Olympus
    > C4000 were of the sunset. I don't do any action photography. Thanks
    > for your comments/help!


    For example, the swivel LCD finder on many cameras allow you to place the
    camera at ground level and makes flower photography much easier - you
    don't need to have your eye also at ground level. DSLRs can't have such a
    swivel finder (but they may offer an angle attachment for the eyepiece).
    The Nikon Coolpix range have a reputation as the best non-DSLRs for macro
    photography.

    Action and perhaps low-light level candids might suit the DSLR.

    With night photography, the higher sensitivity of the DSLR might help, but
    with both cameras you can use long exposures on a tripod (and dark-frame
    subtraction to remove fixed-pattern sensor noise).

    DSLRs and heavier and bulkier - maybe that matters to you.

    Cheers,
    David
     
    David J Taylor, Mar 24, 2005
    #8
  9. Progressiveabsolution

    Guest

    > 1) This question pertains to photo quality ONLY. [...] In
    > other words, is there a limitation to this camera's body that would
    > make someone "upgrade" now or ever?


    No obvious limitation according to Moore's law that states "all Si
    chips will go better and better, saecula saeculorum, amen"...

    A external limitation could then be that the aforementioned body could
    at some moment fulfill your needs, so that you wouldn't benefit of any
    more quality progress (btw, sorry for my English if that's not
    grammatically correct).
    For MY particular needs (I can't afford printing >A3 sorry 11x17",
    neither expensive killing "L" lenses) I feel I've reached that point
    with my rebel/300d.
    Hard to answer for you anyway, you'd better give it a try!


    > 2) Can any non-dslr camera compete with a dslr in image quality?
    > Again, another image quality question since I'm only interested in

    the
    > quality of the photo.


    Except for the (somewhat peculiar) Epson RD1, the much smaller size of
    the sensor in a typical compact camera produce much more noise, and
    that makes a very visible difference at high ISO settings, and a
    just-a-bit-more-than-tiny one at ordinary 100ISO, (speaking of a A4
    unprocessed print and according to MY taste - I really don't like
    noise).
    Anyway there are good noise reduction software on the market but we
    might go slightly off-topic?


    > 3) I have been recently made aware that older lenses can mount on the
    > 300D.


    What's your criteria for being old?

    You can use any canon EF lens on the 300d, with the 1.6x focal length
    magnification (a lens with "50mm" written on it will give you the field
    of view of a 80mm, but will keep the depth of field of the 50mm).
    I've also heard of a few problems with 3rd-party lenses (but not many).

    Speaking of the manual FD lenses, no they won't work, but I've heard of
    an adaptator existing somewhere on Earth, although being cumbersome and
    not really practical (???or was it a 42mm adaptor???).


    > 4) Lastly, is the "hack/Wasia" firmware a good "upgrade" or is this
    > something debatable based on personal use and preference?


    Once again, hard to tell it for you if YOU need the additional
    features.

    The only caveats are
    - a slight limitation in language choice (I've understood that if it's
    not English you will miss the "mirror lock up delay" item),
    - and a possible void of warranty (BUT there is at least 1 reported
    case of someone sending his/her 300d to canon with the hack installed,
    that has been accepted in warranty with no complaints).

    Speaking of image quality, the mirror lock up can help it if you're a
    resolution junkie (less shaking blur).

    It's up to you!

    With many apologizes for my poor english,
    Nicolas
     
    , Mar 24, 2005
    #9
  10. Re: Questions on Canon 300D and etc. questions regarding digitalphotography

    Progressiveabsolution wrote:
    > 3) I have been recently made aware that older lenses can mount on the
    > 300D. Is it worth using an older (but good) lens Vs. the new ones made
    > specifically for the 300D? Take for example, something older that
    > Canon produced vs. one of their L series lenses. The reason I ask this
    > is because I wonder if the reason to get the newer lenses may have more
    > to do with the weight vs. the older ones or maybe also less noise,
    > smoother functioning, etc. Again, only interested in photo quality and
    > trying to figure out if the older lenses can compete with the newer
    > ones.


    The newer EF-S lenses are designed for digital only. The main advantage
    of these lenses is better wide-angle performance and lighter weight.

    If wide-angle is not a consideration, then the older EF lenses work as
    well as anything that could be designed today.

    -Dave
     
    Dave Herzstein, Mar 24, 2005
    #10
  11. Progressiveabsolution

    Frank ess Guest

    David J Taylor wrote:
    > Progressiveabsolution wrote:
    >> "You could equally contrive photographic situations which suited one
    >> camera
    >> or the other far better, and get a different answer."
    >>
    >>
    >> Hi David. What situations would both be equal at and in what
    >> situations would one excel over the other? I'm trying to get a clear
    >> idea for my own personal use with photography to make the decision
    >> one way or the other. I like taking photos of
    >> flowers/nature/landscapes/night photography if that is possible with
    >> P&S cameras, etc. For example, MOST of my photos with my Olympus
    >> C4000 were of the sunset. I don't do any action photography. Thanks
    >> for your comments/help!

    >
    > For example, the swivel LCD finder on many cameras allow you to place
    > the camera at ground level and makes flower photography much easier -
    > you don't need to have your eye also at ground level. DSLRs can't
    > have such a swivel finder (but they may offer an angle attachment for
    > the eyepiece). The Nikon Coolpix range have a reputation as the best
    > non-DSLRs for macro photography.
    >
    > Action and perhaps low-light level candids might suit the DSLR.
    >
    > With night photography, the higher sensitivity of the DSLR might
    > help, but with both cameras you can use long exposures on a tripod
    > (and dark-frame subtraction to remove fixed-pattern sensor noise).
    >
    > DSLRs and heavier and bulkier - maybe that matters to you.
    >


    + It is more difficult to restrict depth of field with a
    (smaller-sensor) non-dSLR.


    --
    Frank ess
     
    Frank ess, Mar 24, 2005
    #11
  12. Frank ess wrote:
    []
    > + It is more difficult to restrict depth of field with a
    > (smaller-sensor) non-dSLR.


    + it is easier to get a large depth field with a P&S and focussing is less
    critical.

    A valid difference, thanks for bringing it out, but with
    "flowers/nature/landscapes/night photography" as the OP's intended use,
    which would you think more suitable?

    Cheers,
    David
     
    David J Taylor, Mar 24, 2005
    #12
  13. Progressiveabsolution

    Frank ess Guest

    David J Taylor wrote:
    > Frank ess wrote:
    > []
    >> + It is more difficult to restrict depth of field with a
    >> (smaller-sensor) non-dSLR.

    >
    > + it is easier to get a large depth field with a P&S and focussing is
    > less critical.
    >
    > A valid difference, thanks for bringing it out, but with
    > "flowers/nature/landscapes/night photography" as the OP's intended
    > use, which would you think more suitable?
    >
    > Cheers,
    > David


    Flowers, I can show:

    Canon 20D, 24-70 2.8L
    http://www.fototime.com/90EC1EE80CDD86E/orig.jpg

    Nikon CP8700
    http://www.fototime.com/F4DFA5B23E6689C/orig.jpg


    Canon
    http://www.fototime.com/2E830B28BFA91C4/orig.jpg

    Nikon
    http://www.fototime.com/7B74C226202557E/orig.jpg


    Canon
    http://www.fototime.com/1850198993562A4/orig.jpg

    Nikon
    http://www.fototime.com/EF54A426AA0423C/orig.jpg

    Canon S500
    http://www.fototime.com/C015E6D0C42E759/orig.jpg


    Canon

    http://www.fototime.com/3F96DA66DD4532B/orig.jpg

    Nikon
    http://www.fototime.com/8013402D2ED3A9A/orig.jpg


    All made within five minutes or so of one another, open shade, overcast
    sky. Shutter priority at ~1/125 or so and f/l at 100 or so equiv. Pays
    you money and makes you choice ...


    There may be nature, landscape, and night-shot comparable pairs, but I
    can't think of them at the moment.


    --
    Frank ess
     
    Frank ess, Mar 24, 2005
    #13
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