Questions about the new "better" broadband plans

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by David Mohring, Aug 1, 2006.

  1. Please republish and distribute the following, adding to it as you see fit.

    From last December to March of this year, "negotiations" between the NZ
    Commerce Commission (NZCC) and NZ Telecom and the Internet Service
    Providers (ISP) TelstraClear, Ihug and CallPlus have resulted in the
    latest two major determinations from NZCC granting wholesale access to
    Telecom's xDSL network.

    Both Documents can be found on the NZCC website ...
    http://tinyurl.com/zsgex

    Decision 568(PDF): Covering connection with TetstraClear and Paradise ...
    http://tinyurl.com/pezwk

    and the Ihug/Callplus agreement(PDF) : Offering the same terms ...
    http://tinyurl.com/lr46j

    If you read both documents you will find that both plans only offer 3.5
    Megabyte per second download and a limiting 128 Kilobyte per second upload
    connection.

    What is important for the consumer is that the agreements specifically
    puts no additional limits to the volume of uploaded and downloaded data ,
    nor do the above agreement appear to grant Telecom the right to charge the
    ISP for data volume. Under the agreement it appears ISP providers are NOT
    charged for the volume of Internet Traffic between a customer's DSL
    modem/router to the ISP.

    This has interesting implications if this the above is so because a
    customers Internet network connection is routed via the ISP. Telecom does
    not charge the ISP for the volume of traffic between each ISP customer
    and:-

    1) the ISPs internal network. This includes a customers access to the
    ISP's email and NNTP servers, local ftp servers etc ;

    2) other Customers of the same ISP. This includes customer hosted game
    servers and peer to peer traffic to other customers of the same ISP ;

    3) and since ISPs can choose to connect to the New Zealand Internet
    Exchange Network ( see http://www.nzix.net/ ) without incurring data
    volume charges, any other New Zealand website or other ISP that is
    connected to the exchange network, and by implication to the customers of
    the latter ISP.;

    It appears that the wholesale agreements grant ISPs the right to choose
    not to be charged by data volume by Telecom for most New Zealand local
    Internet traffic.

    The question now becomes why any of those ISPs are now capping or charging
    customers the same rate for both National and International International
    traffic.

    Ihug even is blaming the NZCC wholesale agreement for having to charge for
    uploaded traffic, when the actual agreements appear to state the opposite.
    http://www.ihug.co.nz/products/broadband/010706.html


    The new plans from TelstraClear ...
    http://www.telstraclear.co.nz/products-res/internet/pdq/

    .... Ihug ...
    http://www.ihug.co.nz/products/broadband/plans/index.html

    .... CallPlus ...
    http://www.callplus.co.nz/?PageID=162

    .... and Slingshot ( Via Callplus )
    http://www.slingshot.co.nz/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabindex=999&tabid=11&subnav=3

    Due to heavy public and Governmental pressure Telecom has been forced to
    offer an additional plan that upgrades the upload connection to 512
    Kilobytes per second. In most places around the world this is the
    minimalist level offers to residential broadband customers. If Telecom is
    using this agreement to force ISPs to accept data volume charges for the
    lower 128Kilobyte per second upload plans then it must be in violation
    of the intent of the wholesale NZCC determinations.

    New Zealand needs modern Internet services to compete with the rest of the
    world. Our geographical isolation may impose theoretical limitations on
    volumes of international network traffic but that is no excuse for setting
    the same limits on network traffic within New Zealand!

    Removing data caps and charges for nationwide network traffic would
    improve the the speed business development and encourage the development
    of local services similar to Trademe.

    David Mohring ( ).
    David Mohring, Aug 1, 2006
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. David Mohring

    Brendan Guest

    On Wed, 02 Aug 2006 08:19:22 +1200, David Mohring wrote:

    > New Zealand needs modern Internet services to compete with the rest of the
    > world. Our geographical isolation may impose theoretical limitations on
    > volumes of international network traffic but that is no excuse for setting
    > the same limits on network traffic within New Zealand!
    >
    > Removing data caps and charges for nationwide network traffic would
    > improve the the speed business development and encourage the development
    > of local services similar to Trademe.


    I agree completely.

    It seems to me that the contention ratio and volume charges need to be
    specifically killed, or atleast muchly reduced.

    --

    .... Brendan

    #6441 +(5197)- [X]

    <Zanthis(ALE)> AFK, tornado


    Note: All my comments are copyright 2/08/2006 10:24:21 a.m. and are opinion only where not otherwise stated and always "to the best of my recollection". www.computerman.orcon.net.nz.
    Brendan, Aug 1, 2006
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. David Mohring

    Fred Dagg Guest

    On Wed, 02 Aug 2006 08:19:22 +1200, David Mohring
    <> exclaimed:

    >
    >Removing data caps and charges for nationwide network traffic would
    >improve the the speed business development and encourage the development
    >of local services similar to Trademe.


    Moreso, it would greatly improve the ability of multi-branch
    organisations. At present, they've got to purchase a *very* expensive
    "One Office" from Telecom, when in actual fact it costs them no more
    than the ADSL line fed into each branch.

    That is the real reason Telecom don't want good upload, of course.
    They make an absolute killing from "One Office" and related services,
    and don't want to lose that very profitable area that nobody else can
    compete with them on.
    Fred Dagg, Aug 2, 2006
    #3

  4. >
    > It seems to me that the contention ratio and volume charges need to be
    > specifically killed, or atleast muchly reduced.
    >


    So are you suggesting a 1:1 ratio for user/bandwidth from the exchange?
    So 1000 customers at 2M so a 2G link to the exchange, but it may need
    only a 512M link? and to the ISP a 2G link as well??

    Thanks
    Craig Whitmore, Aug 2, 2006
    #4
  5. David Mohring

    Nova Guest

    Craig Whitmore wrote:
    >> It seems to me that the contention ratio and volume charges need to be
    >> specifically killed, or atleast muchly reduced.
    >>

    >
    > So are you suggesting a 1:1 ratio for user/bandwidth from the exchange?
    > So 1000 customers at 2M so a 2G link to the exchange, but it may need
    > only a 512M link? and to the ISP a 2G link as well??
    >
    > Thanks
    >
    >


    Hehe would be nice but dreaming a bit :).
    I'd be happy at 50:1 or 40:1 NOW.. in the future maybe better :)
    but not what Telecom wanted.. what was it? like 140:1?
    Nova, Aug 2, 2006
    #5
  6. David Mohring

    Nova Guest

    Fred Dagg wrote:
    > On Wed, 02 Aug 2006 08:19:22 +1200, David Mohring
    > <> exclaimed:
    >
    >> Removing data caps and charges for nationwide network traffic would
    >> improve the the speed business development and encourage the development
    >> of local services similar to Trademe.

    >
    > Moreso, it would greatly improve the ability of multi-branch
    > organisations. At present, they've got to purchase a *very* expensive
    > "One Office" from Telecom, when in actual fact it costs them no more
    > than the ADSL line fed into each branch.
    >
    > That is the real reason Telecom don't want good upload, of course.
    > They make an absolute killing from "One Office" and related services,
    > and don't want to lose that very profitable area that nobody else can
    > compete with them on.


    I would love unlimited national traffic and I can't see why we don't
    have it and I can't see why we can't have FULL SPEED unlimited national
    traffic. That would rock.. ISP's could put their own versions of
    jetstreams gameservers up, hell if everyone had fullspeed we would see
    people being able to run games, imagine that, plus you'd see less
    traffic going out of the country so would actually end up probably
    saving the ISP money too as people would end up hosting more things here.

    With all these changes - regulation etc is this something we are likely
    to see you think? I can understand caps on international traffic (I am
    talking big caps like 100 gigs as that traffic costs money unfortunately
    to send over the southern cross, that should get cheaper and cheaper)
    but technically is is possible to have fullspeed/unlimited traffic and
    economically i mean too and if it is why arent we seeing it?

    I read on stuff i think the other day that they are mulling over
    quadrupling the capactity of the southern cross cable shortly..
    There is certainly no shortage there..
    Nova, Aug 2, 2006
    #6
  7. David Mohring

    Tony Guest


    > This has interesting implications if this the above is so because a
    > customers Internet network connection is routed via the ISP. Telecom does
    > not charge the ISP for the volume of traffic between each ISP customer
    > and:-


    Well, I'm afraid this is not so according to Telecom, as Telecom charges
    the ISP's SHITLOADS for backhaul. Including forcing the ISP's to use
    crappy outdated and expensive ATM pipes for said backhaul.
    Tony, Aug 2, 2006
    #7
  8. On Wed, 02 Aug 2006 12:49:03 +1200, Tony wrote:

    >
    >> This has interesting implications if this the above is so because a
    >> customers Internet network connection is routed via the ISP. Telecom
    >> does not charge the ISP for the volume of traffic between each ISP
    >> customer and:-

    >
    > Well, I'm afraid this is not so according to Telecom, as Telecom charges
    > the ISP's SHITLOADS for backhaul. Including forcing the ISP's to use
    > crappy outdated and expensive ATM pipes for said backhaul.


    Reread both of the NZCC determinations documents, neither appears to grant
    Telecom the right to bill ISPs for any backhaul overage charge.
    David Mohring, Aug 2, 2006
    #8
  9. Xnet HSI Broadband - Unlimited National Data

    On Wed, 02 Aug 2006 08:19:22 +1200, David Mohring wrote:

    > Please republish and distribute the following, adding to it as you see
    > fit.
    >
    > From last December to March of this year, "negotiations" between the NZ
    > Commerce Commission (NZCC) and NZ Telecom and the Internet Service
    > Providers (ISP) TelstraClear, Ihug and CallPlus have resulted in the
    > latest two major determinations from NZCC granting wholesale access to
    > Telecom's xDSL network.
    >
    > Both Documents can be found on the NZCC website ...
    > http://tinyurl.com/zsgex
    >
    > Decision 568(PDF): Covering connection with TetstraClear and Paradise
    > ... http://tinyurl.com/pezwk
    >
    > and the Ihug/Callplus agreement(PDF) : Offering the same terms ...
    > http://tinyurl.com/lr46j
    >
    > If you read both documents you will find that both plans only offer 3.5
    > Megabyte per second download and a limiting 128 Kilobyte per second
    > upload connection.
    >
    > What is important for the consumer is that the agreements specifically
    > puts no additional limits to the volume of uploaded and downloaded data
    > , nor do the above agreement appear to grant Telecom the right to charge
    > the ISP for data volume. Under the agreement it appears ISP providers
    > are NOT charged for the volume of Internet Traffic between a customer's
    > DSL modem/router to the ISP.


    I have just been informed that WORLDxEXCHANGE's Xnet HSI Broadband service
    offers xDSL with "Unlimited National Data : Traffic peered with in New
    Zealand does not get counted towards your data allowance!"
    http://www.xnet.co.nz/internet/broadband.shtml

    Either Telecom is ripping off TelstraClear, Paradise, Ihug, CallPlus and
    Slingshot OR those same ISPs are ripping off their own customers.

    Which is it?

    David Mohring ( ).
    David Mohring, Aug 2, 2006
    #9
  10. David Mohring

    2tone Guest

    Re: Xnet HSI Broadband - Unlimited National Data

    Thank you..
    Very interesting and relevant stuff

    can you clarify for me the procedure for connecting to these unlimited
    national hubs please ..

    It makes sense to me but i would like to know more .. is it just a
    matter of setting some proxy ?

    Can this "peer exchange" routing be done by domestic users via the
    standard adsl telephone connection ?
    2tone, Aug 2, 2006
    #10
  11. Re: Xnet HSI Broadband - Unlimited National Data

    On Tue, 01 Aug 2006 20:01:46 -0700, 2tone wrote:



    > Thank you..
    > Very interesting and relevant stuff
    >
    > can you clarify for me the procedure for connecting to these unlimited
    > national hubs please ..
    >
    > It makes sense to me but i would like to know more .. is it just a
    > matter of setting some proxy ?
    >
    > Can this "peer exchange" routing be done by domestic users via the
    > standard adsl telephone connection ?


    No. The network routing to and from the free peering exchanges is done by
    the ISP. Your ISP has to have a physical network connection to one of the
    peering exchanges and route network traffic via that connection to other
    networks and websites also connected to one of the peering exchanges.

    The peering exchanges centers are connected to each other via optical
    cable buried alongside the railway line. See http://www.nzix.net/

    David Mohring ( )
    David Mohring, Aug 2, 2006
    #11
  12. David Mohring

    Nova Guest

    Re: Xnet HSI Broadband - Unlimited National Data

    David Mohring wrote:
    > On Wed, 02 Aug 2006 08:19:22 +1200, David Mohring wrote:
    >
    >> Please republish and distribute the following, adding to it as you see
    >> fit.
    >>
    >> From last December to March of this year, "negotiations" between the NZ
    >> Commerce Commission (NZCC) and NZ Telecom and the Internet Service
    >> Providers (ISP) TelstraClear, Ihug and CallPlus have resulted in the
    >> latest two major determinations from NZCC granting wholesale access to
    >> Telecom's xDSL network.
    >>
    >> Both Documents can be found on the NZCC website ...
    >> http://tinyurl.com/zsgex
    >>
    >> Decision 568(PDF): Covering connection with TetstraClear and Paradise
    >> ... http://tinyurl.com/pezwk
    >>
    >> and the Ihug/Callplus agreement(PDF) : Offering the same terms ...
    >> http://tinyurl.com/lr46j
    >>
    >> If you read both documents you will find that both plans only offer 3.5
    >> Megabyte per second download and a limiting 128 Kilobyte per second
    >> upload connection.
    >>
    >> What is important for the consumer is that the agreements specifically
    >> puts no additional limits to the volume of uploaded and downloaded data
    >> , nor do the above agreement appear to grant Telecom the right to charge
    >> the ISP for data volume. Under the agreement it appears ISP providers
    >> are NOT charged for the volume of Internet Traffic between a customer's
    >> DSL modem/router to the ISP.

    >
    > I have just been informed that WORLDxEXCHANGE's Xnet HSI Broadband service
    > offers xDSL with "Unlimited National Data : Traffic peered with in New
    > Zealand does not get counted towards your data allowance!"
    > http://www.xnet.co.nz/internet/broadband.shtml
    >
    > Either Telecom is ripping off TelstraClear, Paradise, Ihug, CallPlus and
    > Slingshot OR those same ISPs are ripping off their own customers.
    >
    > Which is it?
    >
    > David Mohring ( ).


    Very interesting...

    If someone from Orcon is reading this is there any reason why we don't
    get unlimited national traffic ? :)
    Nova, Aug 2, 2006
    #12
  13. David Mohring

    EMB Guest

    Re: Xnet HSI Broadband - Unlimited National Data

    Nova wrote:

    >
    > If someone from Orcon is reading this is there any reason why we don't
    > get unlimited national traffic ? :)


    I'm not from Orcon.... but Telecom charge the ISP for all data passing
    through the DSLAM regardless of it's destination.


    --
    EMB
    EMB, Aug 2, 2006
    #13
  14. David Mohring

    Brendan Guest

    On Wed, 2 Aug 2006 11:43:13 +1200, Craig Whitmore wrote:

    > So are you suggesting a 1:1 ratio for user/bandwidth from the exchange?
    > So 1000 customers at 2M so a 2G link to the exchange, but it may need
    > only a 512M link? and to the ISP a 2G link as well??


    No, as that would be impractical and expensive.

    But something comparable to the better examples overseas would be nice.

    The current ratio in many places is a national embarrassment.

    So are YOU suggesting there is nothing wrong with the current system ?

    --

    .... Brendan

    #462310 +(4209)- [X]

    < robT> Name ONE thing that your windows comp can do that my MAC cant
    < bawss> Right click.


    Note: All my comments are copyright 2/08/2006 9:39:02 p.m. and are opinion only where not otherwise stated and always "to the best of my recollection". www.computerman.orcon.net.nz.
    Brendan, Aug 2, 2006
    #14
  15. David Mohring

    Nova Guest

    Re: Xnet HSI Broadband - Unlimited National Data

    EMB wrote:
    > Nova wrote:
    >
    >>
    >> If someone from Orcon is reading this is there any reason why we don't
    >> get unlimited national traffic ? :)

    >
    > I'm not from Orcon.... but Telecom charge the ISP for all data passing
    > through the DSLAM regardless of it's destination.
    >
    >


    If one ISP can offer it I am sure others can..
    Nova, Aug 2, 2006
    #15
  16. David Mohring

    Nova Guest

    Re: Xnet HSI Broadband - Unlimited National Data

    David Mohring wrote:
    > On Wed, 02 Aug 2006 08:19:22 +1200, David Mohring wrote:
    >
    >> Please republish and distribute the following, adding to it as you see
    >> fit.
    >>
    >> From last December to March of this year, "negotiations" between the NZ
    >> Commerce Commission (NZCC) and NZ Telecom and the Internet Service
    >> Providers (ISP) TelstraClear, Ihug and CallPlus have resulted in the
    >> latest two major determinations from NZCC granting wholesale access to
    >> Telecom's xDSL network.
    >>
    >> Both Documents can be found on the NZCC website ...
    >> http://tinyurl.com/zsgex
    >>
    >> Decision 568(PDF): Covering connection with TetstraClear and Paradise
    >> ... http://tinyurl.com/pezwk
    >>
    >> and the Ihug/Callplus agreement(PDF) : Offering the same terms ...
    >> http://tinyurl.com/lr46j
    >>
    >> If you read both documents you will find that both plans only offer 3.5
    >> Megabyte per second download and a limiting 128 Kilobyte per second
    >> upload connection.
    >>
    >> What is important for the consumer is that the agreements specifically
    >> puts no additional limits to the volume of uploaded and downloaded data
    >> , nor do the above agreement appear to grant Telecom the right to charge
    >> the ISP for data volume. Under the agreement it appears ISP providers
    >> are NOT charged for the volume of Internet Traffic between a customer's
    >> DSL modem/router to the ISP.

    >
    > I have just been informed that WORLDxEXCHANGE's Xnet HSI Broadband service
    > offers xDSL with "Unlimited National Data : Traffic peered with in New
    > Zealand does not get counted towards your data allowance!"
    > http://www.xnet.co.nz/internet/broadband.shtml
    >
    > Either Telecom is ripping off TelstraClear, Paradise, Ihug, CallPlus and
    > Slingshot OR those same ISPs are ripping off their own customers.



    As the margins are so small on the profits the ISP's make it wouldn't
    surprise me if this time its the ISP's trying to make a bit of extra $$
    :) but then again, history would tend to point towards Telecom as the
    culprit.

    >
    > Which is it?
    >
    > David Mohring ( ).
    Nova, Aug 2, 2006
    #16
  17. David Mohring

    EMB Guest

    Re: Xnet HSI Broadband - Unlimited National Data

    Nova wrote:
    > EMB wrote:
    >> Nova wrote:
    >>
    >>>
    >>> If someone from Orcon is reading this is there any reason why we
    >>> don't get unlimited national traffic ? :)

    >>
    >> I'm not from Orcon.... but Telecom charge the ISP for all data passing
    >> through the DSLAM regardless of it's destination.
    >>
    >>

    >
    > If one ISP can offer it I am sure others can..


    The question that needs to be asked is "Are Xnet making money from ADSL?"


    --
    EMB
    EMB, Aug 2, 2006
    #17
  18. David Mohring

    Mark C Guest

    David Mohring <> wrote in
    news:p:

    > and the Ihug/Callplus agreement(PDF) : Offering the same terms
    > ... http://tinyurl.com/lr46j


    Right at the top of this document:
    | EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
    | i. Bitstream access is a wholesale service provided by Telecom
    | between an end-user's premises and an ATM switch. This service
    | is used by a telecommunications provider to deliver retail
    | broadband services...

    and therefore excludes backhaul.

    | ...A telecommunications provider must supply
    | other components including national and international
    | transmission, connection to the internet and ISP services.

    therefore Telecom can charge for backhaul.

    Since the first days of UBS, ISPs have had the option of providing
    their own backhaul, OR accepting the terms for Telecom's backhaul.
    Mark C, Aug 3, 2006
    #18
  19. On Thu, 03 Aug 2006 00:00:55 +0000, Mark C wrote:

    > David Mohring <> wrote in
    > news:p:
    >
    >> and the Ihug/Callplus agreement(PDF) : Offering the same terms ...
    >> http://tinyurl.com/lr46j

    >
    > Right at the top of this document:
    > | EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
    > | i. Bitstream access is a wholesale service provided by Telecom between
    > | an end-user's premises and an ATM switch. This service is used by a |
    > telecommunications provider to deliver retail broadband services...
    >
    > and therefore excludes backhaul.
    >
    >


    OK

    http://tinyurl.com/qgapx
    QUOTE
    "Bitstream Access & Backhaul

    Bitstream is a circuit provided by Telecom between an end-user's premises
    and an ATM switch. This circuit is used by a telecommunications provider
    to deliver retail broadband services. A telecommunications provider must
    supply other components including international transmission, connection
    the the internet and ISP services.

    The Commission has received four applications under Schedule 1 of the Act
    for regulated access to Bitstream Access.
    UNQUOTE

    You can get an Idea of the content of those submissions from the recent
    complaints by the ISPANZ ( http://www.ispanz.org.nz/ ) to David Cunliffe -
    Minister of Communications.

    http://tinyurl.com/ntatz

    Which recomends the removal of the backhaul overage charge.

    Given that Telecom have stated that Xtra is not a separate ISP but a
    'Brand'

    http://tinyurl.com/ne9dz

    "Telecom: Xtra is not an ISP - it's a brand-name :
    Xtra won't 'buy' services from Telecom's wholesale division, says Telecom"

    I think that the Commerce Commission will soon step in to level the
    playing field for consumers.


    > | ...A telecommunications provider must supply other components |
    > including national and international transmission, connection to the |
    > internet and ISP services.
    >
    > therefore Telecom can charge for backhaul.
    >
    > Since the first days of UBS, ISPs have had the option of providing their
    > own backhaul, OR accepting the terms for Telecom's backhaul.


    Fast IP/Fast-IP Direct
    http://www.telecom.co.nz/content/0,8748,203456-204225,00.html

    Four questions

    1) Which ISPs install their own backhaul connections?

    2) How can a customer detect if their ISP is using Telecom's Global
    Gateway Internet or the ISPs own backhaul network ( eg using
    tracepath/traceroute/tracert or a website traceback ) ?

    3) If your ISP uses it's own backhaul connection to a customers
    DSL/broadband, *could* the ISP offer a separate pricing plan for free
    National traffic.

    4) Even if the ISP uses Telecom's Fast-IP Direct, why the hell is Telecom
    charging ISP a per customer backhaul overage charge for traffic within NZ
    anyway?


    David Mohring ( )
    David Mohring, Aug 3, 2006
    #19
    1. Advertising

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

It takes just 2 minutes to sign up (and it's free!). Just click the sign up button to choose a username and then you can ask your own questions on the forum.
Similar Threads
  1. Craig

    Request: How to compare broadband plans

    Craig, Nov 19, 2003, in forum: NZ Computing
    Replies:
    0
    Views:
    355
    Craig
    Nov 19, 2003
  2. Gary L T

    Broadband Cable Internet New Plans

    Gary L T, Nov 15, 2005, in forum: NZ Computing
    Replies:
    14
    Views:
    789
    Gary L T
    Nov 15, 2005
  3. Gary L T

    Re: Broadband Cable Internet New Plans

    Gary L T, Nov 15, 2005, in forum: NZ Computing
    Replies:
    0
    Views:
    485
    Gary L T
    Nov 15, 2005
  4. Stephen Williams

    Telstra cable plans get better

    Stephen Williams, Mar 28, 2006, in forum: NZ Computing
    Replies:
    1
    Views:
    276
  5. Matty F

    Changing Xtra broadband plans

    Matty F, Jul 7, 2006, in forum: NZ Computing
    Replies:
    21
    Views:
    816
    Matty F
    Jul 9, 2006
Loading...

Share This Page