Question for all Canon 5D owners...

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by BD, Jun 27, 2007.

  1. BD

    BD Guest

    Hey, all.

    I have a 6MP Canon Rebel 300D. I want something better.

    Rather than getting into that discussion again (I just opened up a
    thread on that), I'd like to get a couple of opinions on whether the
    following is a good deal:

    I have a line on a second-hand 5D. I've held the unit, cracked off a
    few images, including a dust test against a white background and a hot
    pixel test (10 seconds). I also attached each of my EF lenses, and
    took some test shots. I'll be reviewing the images tonight, looking
    for aberrations due to the full-frame sensor against my (not L-class)
    lenses. For the moment, let's assume I have no issues with the
    functionality of the unit. I found it physically lighter than I'd
    expected, and the feel was fine in my hands.

    Retail for this puppy, lets's say for argument's sake, is $3300
    (Canadian). That's the price of the closest retailer to me, after
    taxes and a $350 Canon rebate. The fellow wants $2300.

    Here are the points that give me some confidence:
    1) He's a professional, who's apparently in the process of moving to
    medium format. Hence the sale.
    2) He definitely gives a crap about how his gear is handled. I pulled
    out a blower to puff some dust off the mirror, and he poopooed that in
    favor of a little motorized oscillating brush that he has. Whatever.
    Point being, I'm not expecting to be screwed over.

    Here are the points about it that are making me less than super-eager.

    1) The camera's definitely seen some use. He claims 17000 actuations
    in an 18-month period. Physically, the case looks fine - lots of dust
    in the crevasses around the controls, some in the viewfinder, but
    nothing that can't be cleaned.
    2) The only other object from the original box that he definitely has
    is the strap, the battery and the charger. No docs, no disc, and no
    cables.

    I'm thinking of offering $2000 for the body.

    Any long-time 5D users out there care to comment? I'm sorely tempted
    to by retail, just to get the warranty coverage, and the knowledge
    that what I'm buying is truly 'new'. But the savings here would be
    considerable.


    Thanks!!

    BD
     
    BD, Jun 27, 2007
    #1
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  2. BD

    Kinon O'Cann Guest

    Low ball him, and if he doesn't bite for something around $1200C, move on.
    If he's a pro, then the camera has seen some use. Likely a LOT of use. Don't
    overpay!

    "BD" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Hey, all.
    >
    > I have a 6MP Canon Rebel 300D. I want something better.
    >
    > Rather than getting into that discussion again (I just opened up a
    > thread on that), I'd like to get a couple of opinions on whether the
    > following is a good deal:
    >
    > I have a line on a second-hand 5D. I've held the unit, cracked off a
    > few images, including a dust test against a white background and a hot
    > pixel test (10 seconds). I also attached each of my EF lenses, and
    > took some test shots. I'll be reviewing the images tonight, looking
    > for aberrations due to the full-frame sensor against my (not L-class)
    > lenses. For the moment, let's assume I have no issues with the
    > functionality of the unit. I found it physically lighter than I'd
    > expected, and the feel was fine in my hands.
    >
    > Retail for this puppy, lets's say for argument's sake, is $3300
    > (Canadian). That's the price of the closest retailer to me, after
    > taxes and a $350 Canon rebate. The fellow wants $2300.
    >
    > Here are the points that give me some confidence:
    > 1) He's a professional, who's apparently in the process of moving to
    > medium format. Hence the sale.
    > 2) He definitely gives a crap about how his gear is handled. I pulled
    > out a blower to puff some dust off the mirror, and he poopooed that in
    > favor of a little motorized oscillating brush that he has. Whatever.
    > Point being, I'm not expecting to be screwed over.
    >
    > Here are the points about it that are making me less than super-eager.
    >
    > 1) The camera's definitely seen some use. He claims 17000 actuations
    > in an 18-month period. Physically, the case looks fine - lots of dust
    > in the crevasses around the controls, some in the viewfinder, but
    > nothing that can't be cleaned.
    > 2) The only other object from the original box that he definitely has
    > is the strap, the battery and the charger. No docs, no disc, and no
    > cables.
    >
    > I'm thinking of offering $2000 for the body.
    >
    > Any long-time 5D users out there care to comment? I'm sorely tempted
    > to by retail, just to get the warranty coverage, and the knowledge
    > that what I'm buying is truly 'new'. But the savings here would be
    > considerable.
    >
    >
    > Thanks!!
    >
    > BD
    >
     
    Kinon O'Cann, Jun 28, 2007
    #2
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  3. "BD" <> wrote:
    >
    > Here are the points that give me some confidence:
    > 1) He's a professional, who's apparently in the process of moving to
    > medium format. Hence the sale.


    This sounds suspicious. 6x6 printed square and 6x7 will certainly edge out
    the 5D, but not by enough to be worth the effort. (In my experience as
    someone who does both. I haven't shot any MF since the 5D arrived, despite
    good intentions to take the Mamiya 7 and Rolleiflex TLR out occassionally.)

    > 2) He definitely gives a crap about how his gear is handled. I pulled
    > out a blower to puff some dust off the mirror, and he poopooed that in
    > favor of a little motorized oscillating brush that he has. Whatever.
    > Point being, I'm not expecting to be screwed over.
    >
    > Here are the points about it that are making me less than super-eager.
    >
    > 1) The camera's definitely seen some use. He claims 17000 actuations
    > in an 18-month period.


    That sounds way low: I run off well over 100 shots a day when I'm actually
    shooting. I'd expect a pro to shoot 1000 shots a week, at least. Not 1000
    shots a month.

    > Any long-time 5D users out there care to comment? I'm sorely tempted
    > to by retail, just to get the warranty coverage, and the knowledge
    > that what I'm buying is truly 'new'. But the savings here would be
    > considerable.


    I'm a wimp: I'd save the money for a new body...

    (Actually, what I'd do if I didn't have a 5D right now is buy a 400D and FF
    glass and wait for the next version of the 5D.)

    David J. Littleboy
    Tokyo, Japan
     
    David J. Littleboy, Jun 28, 2007
    #3
  4. In article <>, BD
    <> writes
    >
    >Here are the points about it that are making me less than super-eager.
    >
    >1) The camera's definitely seen some use. He claims 17000 actuations
    >in an 18-month period. Physically, the case looks fine - lots of dust
    >in the crevasses around the controls, some in the viewfinder, but
    >nothing that can't be cleaned.
    >

    Don't bet on it. Dust in the 5D viewfinder can be almost impossible to
    get rid of. It can be in several places which are readily accessible by
    the user, like either side of the focus screen. However it is just as
    likely to be between the superimpose (SI) plate and the pentaprism,
    which is not accessible to the normal user.

    Get him to clean the viewfinder before assuming its easy to do. It is
    probably why he wasn't keen on the blower - despite Canon's
    recommendation, they acknowledge that it causes dust to get trapped
    between the IS plate and the pentaprism on the 5D.
    --
    Kennedy
    Yes, Socrates himself is particularly missed;
    A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's pissed.
    Python Philosophers (replace 'nospam' with 'kennedym' when replying)
     
    Kennedy McEwen, Jun 28, 2007
    #4
  5. BD

    Robert Coe Guest

    On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 09:32:15 +0900, "David J. Littleboy" <>
    wrote:
    :
    : "BD" <> wrote:
    : >
    : > Here are the points that give me some confidence:
    : > 1) He's a professional, who's apparently in the process of moving to
    : > medium format. Hence the sale.
    :
    : This sounds suspicious. 6x6 printed square and 6x7 will certainly edge out
    : the 5D, but not by enough to be worth the effort. (In my experience as
    : someone who does both. I haven't shot any MF since the 5D arrived, despite
    : good intentions to take the Mamiya 7 and Rolleiflex TLR out occassionally.)
    :
    : > 2) He definitely gives a crap about how his gear is handled. I pulled
    : > out a blower to puff some dust off the mirror, and he poopooed that in
    : > favor of a little motorized oscillating brush that he has. Whatever.
    : > Point being, I'm not expecting to be screwed over.
    : >
    : > Here are the points about it that are making me less than super-eager.
    : >
    : > 1) The camera's definitely seen some use. He claims 17000 actuations
    : > in an 18-month period.
    :
    : That sounds way low: I run off well over 100 shots a day when I'm actually
    : shooting. I'd expect a pro to shoot 1000 shots a week, at least. Not 1000
    : shots a month.
    :
    : > Any long-time 5D users out there care to comment? I'm sorely tempted
    : > to by retail, just to get the warranty coverage, and the knowledge
    : > that what I'm buying is truly 'new'. But the savings here would be
    : > considerable.
    :
    : I'm a wimp: I'd save the money for a new body...
    :
    : (Actually, what I'd do if I didn't have a 5D right now is buy a 400D and
    : FF glass and wait for the next version of the 5D.)

    I second David's opinion. My impression is that at this point in time the 5D
    is nothing more than a superior implementation of yesterday's technology. The
    6D (or whatever it will be called) will be at least 12 MP and better in other
    respects as well.

    Full disclosure, however, elicits the confession that …

    a) I'm a 400D owner, and

    b) The last professional I saw working (at a wedding 11 days ago) used a 5D.
    And while I didn't actually see his work (being too busy with my own camera at
    that event), I have it on very good authority that his pictures ranged from
    excellent to superb.

    Bob
     
    Robert Coe, Jun 28, 2007
    #5
  6. BD

    King Sardon Guest

    On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 09:32:15 +0900, "David J. Littleboy"
    <> wrote:

    >(Actually, what I'd do if I didn't have a 5D right now is buy a 400D and FF
    >glass and wait for the next version of the 5D.)


    Ah, but that next version of the 5D will have a 1.6 crop sensor.

    KS
     
    King Sardon, Jun 28, 2007
    #6
  7. BD

    BD Guest


    > That sounds way low: I run off well over 100 shots a day when I'm actually
    > shooting. I'd expect a pro to shoot 1000 shots a week, at least. Not 1000
    > shots a month.


    Isn't there a way to check the real image count number from the RAW
    file? I read that the counter could be reset somehow, so that a person
    could reset to #0001 whenever they wanted - but I'm not sure.

    Nor am I sure what happens when you hit the 10,000 image mark. My
    Rebel's at 9300 and change, so I won't find out for a little while yet.
     
    BD, Jun 28, 2007
    #7
  8. "Robert Coe" <> wrote:
    > :
    > : (Actually, what I'd do if I didn't have a 5D right now is buy a 400D and
    > : FF glass and wait for the next version of the 5D.)
    >
    > I second David's opinion. My impression is that at this point in time the
    > 5D
    > is nothing more than a superior implementation of yesterday's technology.
    > The
    > 6D (or whatever it will be called) will be at least 12 MP and better in
    > other
    > respects as well.


    Huh? The 5D is currently 12.7MP.

    If the "5DII" uses the 1DIII sensor's pixel technology, it should be about
    _16MP_ with similar per-pixel noise characteristics to the current 5D at
    high ISOs, and maybe better at ISO 100.

    I'm not expecting much in the way of "better in other respects as well",
    though. Canon is pretty clear about what they consider a "mid-range" dSLR
    feature set to be. We were lucky to get a spot meter in the 30D and 5D.

    > Full disclosure, however, elicits the confession that .
    >
    > a) I'm a 400D owner, and
    >
    > b) The last professional I saw working (at a wedding 11 days ago) used a
    > 5D.
    > And while I didn't actually see his work (being too busy with my own
    > camera at
    > that event), I have it on very good authority that his pictures ranged
    > from
    > excellent to superb.


    The difference between 10MP and 12.7MP isn't all that large: about 12%
    better resolution. The 5D came out before the 10MP APS-C cameras and looked
    a lot more interesting than it does now. If the "5DII" has 16MP, and you
    want to make 13x19 prints, you'll want one. So spend half your money on FF
    compatible lenses and put the other half under your mattress.

    David J. Littleboy
    Tokyo, Japan
     
    David J. Littleboy, Jun 28, 2007
    #8
  9. BD

    Mark² Guest

    BD wrote:

    > 1) The camera's definitely seen some use. He claims 17000 actuations
    > in an 18-month period. Physically, the case looks fine - lots of dust
    > in the crevasses around the controls, some in the viewfinder, but
    > nothing that can't be cleaned.


    If he's an active pro, I'd guess it's seen more like 70,000 actuations..and
    that he's gearing up to buy the new, up-coming FF 1Ds Mark III in a few
    months. I would be VERY skeptical of the 17,000 actuation claim. Heck...a
    guy could do a third of that just running tests and goofing around in the
    first few days of ownership.

    If he shot LESS than 1000 images a MONTH (as he's claiming)...I'd be
    EXTREMELY surprised.

    Perhaps you could make a deal with him based on you...FIRST...telling him
    that you'll pay him a fraction of his asking price in proportion to what the
    Service Center indicates the actual number of shutter-trips are (which
    you'll assure him you'll do, and he'll agree in writing to). I'd wager his
    tune may quickly change at that point...either agreeing to a lower price, or
    telling you he'll sell it elsewhere. When/if it does, then your response is
    simply, "Well then perhaps you should give me a more realiztic number of
    actuations, and adjust the price accordingly."
    ;)

    On the other hand...He may be perfectly legit, and simply offering you a
    decent deal.
    -Just be wary. As great as the images are from this body, I can't imagine
    any pro shooting less than 1000 shots a month...

    -Mark²


    --
    Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at:
    www.pbase.com/markuson
     
    Mark², Jun 28, 2007
    #9
  10. BD

    Mark² Guest

    BD wrote:
    >> That sounds way low: I run off well over 100 shots a day when I'm
    >> actually shooting. I'd expect a pro to shoot 1000 shots a week, at
    >> least. Not 1000 shots a month.

    >
    > Isn't there a way to check the real image count number from the RAW
    > file? I read that the counter could be reset somehow, so that a person
    > could reset to #0001 whenever they wanted - but I'm not sure.
    >
    > Nor am I sure what happens when you hit the 10,000 image mark. My
    > Rebel's at 9300 and change, so I won't find out for a little while
    > yet.


    It re-sets after 9999...which I think is pretty silly. It should be 99,999,
    so as to avoid file-name matching. It's a pain when that happens, and it
    could have been easily avoided with one more digit.

    --
    Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at:
    www.pbase.com/markuson
     
    Mark², Jun 28, 2007
    #10
  11. BD

    BD Guest


    > the user, like either side of the focus screen. However it is just as
    > likely to be between the superimpose (SI) plate and the pentaprism,
    > which is not accessible to the normal user.


    I found several spots on the images, and this was with using at least
    two different lenses. He had cleaned the mirror off before we started,
    so that suggests the dust is on the sensor. I sent him the images, and
    basically said that if he would clean the thing properly, I'd have
    another look. He must have thought I was daft, asking over 2 grand for
    a camera in this condition.
     
    BD, Jun 28, 2007
    #11
  12. BD

    BD Guest


    > Perhaps you could make a deal with him based on you...FIRST...telling him
    > that you'll pay him a fraction of his asking price in proportion to what the
    > Service Center indicates the actual number of shutter-trips are (which
    > you'll assure him you'll do, and he'll agree in writing to).


    Good call. I wonder how accurate they can estimate that...
     
    BD, Jun 28, 2007
    #12
  13. BD

    ASAAR Guest

    On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 06:21:05 -0700, BD wrote:

    >> Perhaps you could make a deal with him based on you...FIRST...telling him
    >> that you'll pay him a fraction of his asking price in proportion to what the
    >> Service Center indicates the actual number of shutter-trips are (which
    >> you'll assure him you'll do, and he'll agree in writing to).

    >
    > Good call. I wonder how accurate they can estimate that...


    If it's accurate, it's not an estimate. :) There may well be an
    embedded number of shutter actuations in the JPG or RAW files that
    doesn't appear in the EXIF data, or it may be saved in the EXIF data
    as an unidentified or encrypted value that isn't displayed by most
    photo software.


    >> On the other hand...He may be perfectly legit, and simply offering you a
    >> decent deal.
    >> -Just be wary. As great as the images are from this body, I can't imagine
    >> any pro shooting less than 1000 shots a month...


    I can, but then Ansel Adams didn't have a 5D. :) But to get a
    feel for how many shots the 5D owner actually took with the 5D, it
    would be useful to know several things.

    One is when the 5D was purchased - a pro probably has kept a
    receipt or sales slip.

    Another is how many cameras the pro actively uses, and what he
    uses each camera for. I can imagine a pro using only one camera,
    but I'd be surprised if this is true for most pros. I'm certainly
    not anything resembling a pro, but I still use four digital cameras.

    Last, if the pro is willing to let you view an assortment of his
    5D's original, unedited pictures, you can assess the accuracy of the
    shutter count by comparing the file dates with the filenames, which
    have an embedded file number. My Canon P&S produces names with only
    partial file number information, such as IMG_0148, but the EXIF data
    adds the incrementing folder number, in this example the field is :

    > Image Number - 1010148


    The 5D may have a variation of this in its EXIF data. In the EXIF
    data, my D50 has the more useful and presumably accurate field :

    > Total pictures - 127


    Since the filename for this shot was DSC_0119.JPG

    Maybe some of the 'pros' among us that have taken a very large
    number of shots with their DSLRs will be able to say whether the
    "Image Number" or "Total pictures" count does or doesn't roll over
    when the filename number rolls over 9999.
     
    ASAAR, Jun 28, 2007
    #13
  14. BD <> wrote:
    >Isn't there a way to check the real image count number from the RAW
    >file? I read that the counter could be reset somehow, so that a person
    >could reset to #0001 whenever they wanted - but I'm not sure.
    >
    >Nor am I sure what happens when you hit the 10,000 image mark. My
    >Rebel's at 9300 and change, so I won't find out for a little while yet.


    Apparently you do have a few shots that you took, so it
    shouldn't be difficult at all to examine the EXIF data
    and determine exactly what it has.

    I'm not familiar with Canon cameras, and it might be
    that the counter only has 4 digits, but while that is
    reasonable for the image filename counter, it is not at
    all reasonable for the shutter actuation counter.
    (Nikon cameras, for example, most certainly do not
    rollover at 10,000 exposures.)

    You might try /exiftools/, which is based on perl, as a
    way to examine all available EXIF data.

    If that isn't possible/easy, can you put one RAW file
    from the camera online where it can be downloaded? Any
    number of folks would certainly be willing to dump the
    EXIF data for you.

    --
    Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
    Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)
     
    Floyd L. Davidson, Jun 28, 2007
    #14
  15. BD

    BD Guest


    > You might try /exiftools/, which is based on perl, as a
    > way to examine all available EXIF data.
    >
    > If that isn't possible/easy, can you put one RAW file
    > from the camera online where it can be downloaded? Any
    > number of folks would certainly be willing to dump the
    > EXIF data for you.


    Yes, I'll definitely try exiftools, and if that fails, I'll post a
    RAW.
    Awesome.
     
    BD, Jun 28, 2007
    #15
  16. BD <> wrote:
    >> You might try /exiftools/, which is based on perl, as a
    >> way to examine all available EXIF data.
    >>
    >> If that isn't possible/easy, can you put one RAW file
    >> from the camera online where it can be downloaded? Any
    >> number of folks would certainly be willing to dump the
    >> EXIF data for you.

    >
    >Yes, I'll definitely try exiftools, and if that fails, I'll post a
    >RAW.
    >Awesome.


    Typo alert, that is /exiftool/, with no 's' on the end.

    BTW, I went looking for a CRW file with google, and
    didn't find one to try, but did discover that the
    RecordID field is the one that supposedly contains the
    number of shutter actuations since the camera was
    manufactured. It is a 32 bit value. Hence it could be
    that it rolls over in 4 digits, but isn't very likely.

    --
    Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
    Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)
     
    Floyd L. Davidson, Jun 28, 2007
    #16
  17. BD

    Mark² Guest

    BD wrote:
    >> Perhaps you could make a deal with him based on
    >> you...FIRST...telling him that you'll pay him a fraction of his
    >> asking price in proportion to what the Service Center indicates the
    >> actual number of shutter-trips are (which you'll assure him you'll
    >> do, and he'll agree in writing to).

    >
    > Good call. I wonder how accurate they can estimate that...


    It wouldn't be an estimate. The camera keeps track of this figure, but it
    isn't easy for the consumer to access.

    --
    Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at:
    www.pbase.com/markuson
     
    Mark², Jun 28, 2007
    #17
  18. In article <>, Floyd L. Davidson
    <> writes
    >
    >You might try /exiftools/, which is based on perl, as a
    >way to examine all available EXIF data.
    >
    >If that isn't possible/easy, can you put one RAW file
    >from the camera online where it can be downloaded? Any
    >number of folks would certainly be willing to dump the
    >EXIF data for you.
    >

    Any number of folks might well be willing to dump the EXIF data, but
    that won't help him determine the shutter count.

    Canon have not released the details of the shutter count tag in the EXIF
    data for the 5D or even confirmed that it is encoded in the EXIF data.

    Neither Exiftool nor Exifread will divulge that information from any
    Canon 5D image, only the image number which, as others have noted, can
    easily be reset.

    Whilst Exifread will produce a long list of unidentified tags in the
    EXIF data, identifying which combination of those is the shutter count
    certainly isn't trivial - lots of people have tried, including the
    writers of that software.

    Why Canon decided to encrypt the activation count on this model is a
    mystery since it would certainly help in precisely this sort of
    situation. However, at present, the only way to determine the shutter
    activation count on a 5D is to send it, not an image from it, to Canon
    themselves.
    --
    Kennedy
    Yes, Socrates himself is particularly missed;
    A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's pissed.
    Python Philosophers (replace 'nospam' with 'kennedym' when replying)
     
    Kennedy McEwen, Jun 28, 2007
    #18
  19. Kennedy McEwen <> wrote:
    >In article <>, Floyd
    >L. Davidson <> writes
    >>
    >>You might try /exiftools/, which is based on perl, as a
    >>way to examine all available EXIF data.
    >>
    >>If that isn't possible/easy, can you put one RAW file
    >>from the camera online where it can be downloaded? Any
    >>number of folks would certainly be willing to dump the
    >>EXIF data for you.
    >>

    >Any number of folks might well be willing to dump the
    >EXIF data, but that won't help him determine the shutter
    >count.
    >
    >Canon have not released the details of the shutter count
    >tag in the EXIF data for the 5D or even confirmed that
    >it is encoded in the EXIF data.


    That is exactly why I said "You might try...". The
    point was to dump it an look and see if it is or is not
    listed.

    I have no idea if it is actually there or not. The one
    and only example CRW file I've found (supplied with the
    exiftool package) has 0.

    >Neither Exiftool nor Exifread will divulge that
    >information from any Canon 5D image, only the image
    >number which, as others have noted, can easily be reset.
    >
    >Whilst Exifread will produce a long list of unidentified
    >tags in the EXIF data, identifying which combination of
    >those is the shutter count certainly isn't trivial -
    >lots of people have tried, including the writers of that
    >software.
    >
    >Why Canon decided to encrypt the activation count on
    >this model is a mystery since it would certainly help in
    >precisely this sort of situation. However, at present,
    >the only way to determine the shutter activation count
    >on a 5D is to send it, not an image from it, to Canon
    >themselves.


    I went through several of the example image files
    supplied with the exiftool package, and Nikon was the
    only one I noticed that had valid numbers for shutter
    actuations. Apparently Canon is not alone.

    --
    Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
    Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)
     
    Floyd L. Davidson, Jun 28, 2007
    #19
  20. BD

    nospam Guest

    In article <fMpJqXC8$>, Kennedy McEwen
    <> wrote:

    > Any number of folks might well be willing to dump the EXIF data, but
    > that won't help him determine the shutter count.
    >
    > Canon have not released the details of the shutter count tag in the EXIF
    > data for the 5D or even confirmed that it is encoded in the EXIF data.
    >
    > Neither Exiftool nor Exifread will divulge that information from any
    > Canon 5D image, only the image number which, as others have noted, can
    > easily be reset.


    exiftool shows a shutter count tag for a few random 5d images i have.
    are you saying they are incorrect?
     
    nospam, Jun 28, 2007
    #20
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