Question: Do businesses hold any bearing on MCSE Boot Camps?

Discussion in 'MCSE' started by Jp Senior, Sep 14, 2003.

  1. Jp Senior

    Jp Senior Guest

    I have been flipping through the net the last few days, and have found
    numerous "Boot Camps" and Cram Sessions for MCSE exams. I'm wondering what
    kind of signifigance training from these places has for the industry.
    Myself, I'm getting extensive training for CCNA, CCNP, MCSE, A+, Network+,
    Security+. But I have a feeling I'm going to lose my job to Joe Shmo who
    walks in from mcsebootcamp.com.
    I figure 2 years of training should be able to get me a job a little better
    than this idiot. I also don't really feel that people who buy a book or two
    and study it should even be allowed to write a test. It's simply a cash cow
    for Microsoft. The truly skilled and trained folks out there get to deal
    with people who have drilled 14 days of exam material into their heads, and
    can simply only write a test.
    That being said, why is Microsoft still willing to allow people with no
    hands-on and practical knowledge of the test?
    How can I show myself better than Joe Shmo on an application? It's true
    that many employers only look for certification, and if certs can be taken
    this easily, why should they care about mine?

    --
    Jp Senior
    Network Technician Student
    Southern Alberta Institute of Technology

    These last few weeks I have been experiening nucleomituphobia. I am truly
    afraid for the future of the world. Greenhouse gas, War, Terrorism, Nuclear
    Stalemate.. Who will break the nuclear stalemate and end the world? My death
    warrant has been signed by a politician...
     
    Jp Senior, Sep 14, 2003
    #1
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  2. Jp Senior

    Rod Guest

    You worry to much.

    >
    > These last few weeks I have been experiening nucleomituphobia. I am truly
    > afraid for the future of the world. Greenhouse gas, War, Terrorism,

    Nuclear
    > Stalemate.. Who will break the nuclear stalemate and end the world? My

    death
    > warrant has been signed by a politician...
    >
    >



    ---
    Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
    Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
    Version: 6.0.515 / Virus Database: 313 - Release Date: 9/1/2003
     
    Rod, Sep 14, 2003
    #2
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  3. Jp Senior

    Jon Guest

    Hey all, just to say in response...

    I have just achieved MCSE in six weeks from an intensive
    training course. So - I'm guessing I'm the bad guy, right?
    However, I also have 20+ years experience in broadcast TV
    engineering and management and I'm looking for a 100%
    career change, so my er, 'love' of computer networks (go
    figure?) gave me enough grounding to do the exams and
    achieve the pass I was after.

    However, the point I want to make is this: as and when I
    get an IT job based on my recent qualifications, the one
    factor I will be most aware of is that I know *nothing*
    when it come to the translation of 'exam smarts' into day
    to day operation of commercial networks and systems. Right
    now I would trade a lot to be able to prove 'x' years in a
    commercial networking environment.

    The bottom line is this: it's a good old fashioned
    competitive world out there, and we're all competing for
    the same jobs. However, having looked at more resumes over
    the years than you can possibly imagine, when I'm looking
    to employ someone I want to see a balance between
    qualifications and commercial experience.

    I honestly belive that there really are no guaranteed
    shortcuts to career promotion or success, intensive
    training or otherwise - it's up to the individual to prove
    that his or her background and attitude is the right one
    for the job they're applying for.

    HTH,

    Jon
    >-----Original Message-----
    >"Jp Senior" <> wrote in message

    news:<#>...
    >> I have been flipping through the net the last few days,

    and have found
    >> numerous "Boot Camps" and Cram Sessions for MCSE

    exams. I'm wondering what
    >> kind of signifigance training from these places has for

    the industry.
    >> Myself, I'm getting extensive training for CCNA, CCNP,

    MCSE, A+, Network+,
    >> Security+. But I have a feeling I'm going to lose my

    job to Joe Shmo who
    >> walks in from mcsebootcamp.com.
    >> I figure 2 years of training should be able to get me a

    job a little better
    >> than this idiot. I also don't really feel that people

    who buy a book or two
    >> and study it should even be allowed to write a test.

    It's simply a cash cow
    >> for Microsoft. The truly skilled and trained folks out

    there get to deal
    >> with people who have drilled 14 days of exam material

    into their heads, and
    >> can simply only write a test.
    >> That being said, why is Microsoft still willing to

    allow people with no
    >> hands-on and practical knowledge of the test?
    >> How can I show myself better than Joe Shmo on an

    application? It's true
    >> that many employers only look for certification, and if

    certs can be taken
    >> this easily, why should they care about mine?
    >>

    >
    >Hmm, sounds like pots and kettles to me...
    >
    >Whilst your comments about bootcamps are generally on the

    money,
    >consider the case of someone who has lots of real-world

    commercial
    >hands-on experience (as opposed to sanitised home or

    training centre
    >labs) - who needs the certs to back up their existing

    knowledge and
    >experience. Plenty of them would be able to fill in the

    holes of their
    >MS knowledge in a 14 day bootcamp, and would be a much

    better
    >candidate than someone with training but no commercial

    experience.
    >
    >If MS were to introduce strict rules as to who could sit

    the MCSE
    >exams (rather than having exams that would weed out the

    braindumpers,
    >and crammers), then surely the requirements should be one

    year of
    >experience administering a network operating system in a
    >medium-to-large organization.
    >
    >http://www.microsoft.com/traincert/mcp/mcse/faq.asp
    >Q. Who should become certified as an MCSE in Windows 2000?
    >A. The MCSE on Microsoft Windows 2000 credential is

    appropriate for IT
    >professionals working in the typically complex computing

    environment
    >of medium-to-large organizations. We recommend that an

    MCSE on Windows
    >2000 have at least one year of experience implementing and
    >administering a network operating system.
    >
    >You do have that experience don't you ?
    >.
    >
     
    Jon, Sep 15, 2003
    #3
  4. "Andy Foster" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Whilst your comments about bootcamps are generally on the money,
    > consider the case of someone who has lots of real-world commercial
    > hands-on experience (as opposed to sanitised home or training centre
    > labs) - who needs the certs to back up their existing knowledge and
    > experience. Plenty of them would be able to fill in the holes of their
    > MS knowledge in a 14 day bootcamp, and would be a much better
    > candidate than someone with training but no commercial experience.


    Wow... I thought I was the only MCNGP who had this attitude about boot
    camps.

    Compadre!

    > If MS were to introduce strict rules as to who could sit the MCSE
    > exams (rather than having exams that would weed out the braindumpers,
    > and crammers), then surely the requirements should be one year of
    > experience administering a network operating system in a
    > medium-to-large organization.


    I'd add even small organization there. Someone just starting out would need
    to do volunteer work, and I wouldn't consider most libraries and/or schools
    to necessarily be medium or large organizations. I agree on the one-year
    experience, though.

    > http://www.microsoft.com/traincert/mcp/mcse/faq.asp
    > Q. Who should become certified as an MCSE in Windows 2000?
    > A. The MCSE on Microsoft Windows 2000 credential is appropriate for IT
    > professionals working in the typically complex computing environment
    > of medium-to-large organizations. We recommend that an MCSE on Windows
    > 2000 have at least one year of experience implementing and
    > administering a network operating system.


    I can understand why the medium to large, since that's the kind of business
    that would need to employ MCSE's in the first place, but I still think it
    would be more difficult for someone breaking into the field to get
    experience, even volunteer, in larger companies.

    Perhaps a school system might meet those needs, however.

    --
    Fris "Will Engineer For Food" beeĀ® MCNGP #13

    http://www.mcngp.tk
    The MCNGP Team - We're here to help


    >
    > You do have that experience don't you ?
     
    =?iso-8859-1?Q?Frisbee=AE_MCNGP?=, Sep 15, 2003
    #4
  5. Jp Senior

    Andy Foster Guest

    FrisbeeĀ® MCNGP <> wrote in message news:<#>...
    >
    > > If MS were to introduce strict rules as to who could sit the MCSE
    > > exams (rather than having exams that would weed out the braindumpers,
    > > and crammers), then surely the requirements should be one year of
    > > experience administering a network operating system in a
    > > medium-to-large organization.

    >
    > I'd add even small organization there. Someone just starting out would need
    > to do volunteer work, and I wouldn't consider most libraries and/or schools
    > to necessarily be medium or large organizations. I agree on the one-year
    > experience, though.
    >
    >


    Fris, you seem to have missed the point (although in other
    circumstances your comments would be right on the money...)

    The OP is spending loads of money to become a paper MCSE (in that
    he'll have the certs but no experience to back it up), and wants to
    stop others doing him out of a job by doing the same, but without
    spending so much money.
    *If* there are going to be rules about who can and cannot take the
    exams, MS' guidlines would be as good a place to start as any.

    As certs are next to worthless without experience, as regards getting
    a half decent job in IT, your suggestion about volunteer work has
    potential.
     
    Andy Foster, Sep 15, 2003
    #5
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