prosumer future

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by .::SuperBLUE::., Mar 4, 2005.

  1. Does anyone have any info about what will the next prosumer generation
    cameras look like? How many "megapixels"?
    The next generation of sony 828, nikon 8800?
     
    .::SuperBLUE::., Mar 4, 2005
    #1
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  2. .::SuperBLUE::.

    Skip M Guest

    Question

    ".::SuperBLUE::." <> wrote in message
    news:d08j8d$j12$...
    > Does anyone have any info about what will the next prosumer generation
    > cameras look like? How many "megapixels"?
    > The next generation of sony 828, nikon 8800?
    >
    >


    And a sincere one, too. If the Sony 828 and Nikon 8800 are "prosumer"
    cameras, then what is the Canon 20D? In the film days, cameras like the
    Canon A2 were prosumer SLRs, slotted below the pro level 1n, but above the
    consumer Rebel and Elan. The 20D slots below the 1D mkII and 1Ds mkII, and
    above the Rebel. Wouldn't that make it a "prosumer" camera?

    --
    Skip Middleton
    http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
     
    Skip M, Mar 4, 2005
    #2
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  3. ".::SuperBLUE::." <> wrote in message
    news:d08j8d$j12$...
    > Does anyone have any info about what will the next prosumer generation
    > cameras look like? How many "megapixels"?
    > The next generation of sony 828, nikon 8800?


    They've about maxxed out the resolution, unless someone decides to do a
    larger sensor, and/or a CMOS sensor.

    I'd almost say that the next prosumer camera is a consumer D-SLR like the
    EOS-350D.
     
    Steven M. Scharf, Mar 4, 2005
    #3
  4. Steven M. Scharf wrote:
    > ".::SuperBLUE::." <> wrote in message
    > news:d08j8d$j12$...
    >> Does anyone have any info about what will the next prosumer
    >> generation cameras look like? How many "megapixels"?
    >> The next generation of sony 828, nikon 8800?

    >
    > They've about maxxed out the resolution, unless someone decides to do
    > a larger sensor, and/or a CMOS sensor.
    >
    > I'd almost say that the next prosumer camera is a consumer D-SLR like
    > the EOS-350D.


    Agreed about resolution - possibly 7Mp is a better compromise than 8Mp.

    I would have bought the 8800 if its lens hadn't been so small an aperture
    at full zoom (f/4.9), and people still complain about the slow speeds of
    many cameras, so there are two areas which could be improved. Selling
    speed isn't as easy as selling on number of megapixels, of course! I'd
    also like to see the image-stabilised zooms come down from the focal
    length range 36 - 432mm (Panasonic FZ20) to 24 - 288mm, but that's
    optically much more challenging. How about building lens distortion
    correction into the firmware?

    Cheers,
    David
     
    David J Taylor, Mar 4, 2005
    #4
  5. .::SuperBLUE::.

    bmoag Guest

    The EVF cameras are a new form factor. Most writers on this newsgroup cannot
    wrap their head around that after a lifetime of SLR use and the mantra of
    interchangeable lenses.
    The digital world is not shackled to fixed optico-mechanical limitations.
    If software could be used, in camera or in computer, to correct or create
    lens aberrations effects, why would one need or want an SLR with its larger
    and heavier form factor? The optical and mechanical properties of any
    individual lens will be far less important than they are now. This is
    already happening.
    If the lens is fixed to the camera, as with EVF/prosumer cameras the design
    of such software is made much easier.
    A second line of development, also easier if the lens is fixed to the
    camera, would involve in camera processing of data coming off the sensor to
    widen the apparent exposure latitude of the sensor. A simple example would
    be the ability to selectively decrease the signal amplitude coming off the
    highlights to minimize blow-out of details in the highlights.
    As sensor technology develops sensor size will not be the over-rated issue
    it is today. Canon went to 8mps in its dSLR without increasing sensor size
    and by most reports I have read that sensor has less noise than the Canon
    6mp dSLR sensor.
    Since I use both EVF and dSLR cameras I will just say that people who have
    not extensively worked with the images created by current 8mp EVF cameras
    have no idea what they are talking about. My experience is that these
    cameras used properly create images superior to identical images created
    with current 6mp dSLRS simply because of the apparent sharpness added by
    those 2mps of image data.
    I have more bad images because of moire and fringing with my Nikon D70 than
    with my Sony 828. The amount of software sharpening required for printing
    many D70 images is such that it is difficult to avoid a halo effect that is
    far worse than any fringing at high contrast boundaries in images made with
    current 8mp sensors.
     
    bmoag, Mar 4, 2005
    #5
  6. .::SuperBLUE::.

    Guest

    The cameras you talk about are (at best) mid-range consumer cameras.
    Prosumer does not start until you get past the 300D, D70, *1Ds, and E1
    cameras;
     
    , Mar 4, 2005
    #6
  7. .::SuperBLUE::.

    Chris Brown Guest

    In article <O00Wd.3371$>,
    bmoag <> wrote:
    >The EVF cameras are a new form factor. Most writers on this newsgroup cannot
    >wrap their head around that after a lifetime of SLR use and the mantra of
    >interchangeable lenses.
    >The digital world is not shackled to fixed optico-mechanical limitations.
    >If software could be used, in camera or in computer, to correct or create
    >lens aberrations effects, why would one need or want an SLR with its larger
    >and heavier form factor?


    Because a) they can take pictures which are not possible to take on a
    zoom-compact digicam, regardless of whether it has an EVF of not, and b) the
    image quality is better.
     
    Chris Brown, Mar 4, 2005
    #7
  8. .::SuperBLUE::.

    measekite Guest

    What is the difference between a ccd sensor and a cmos senser that makes
    more advancements in resolution using a cmos?

    Steven M. Scharf wrote:

    >".::SuperBLUE::." <> wrote in message
    >news:d08j8d$j12$...
    >
    >
    >>Does anyone have any info about what will the next prosumer generation
    >>cameras look like? How many "megapixels"?
    >>The next generation of sony 828, nikon 8800?
    >>
    >>

    >
    >They've about maxxed out the resolution, unless someone decides to do a
    >larger sensor, and/or a CMOS sensor.
    >
    >I'd almost say that the next prosumer camera is a consumer D-SLR like the
    >EOS-350D.
    >
    >
    >
    >
     
    measekite, Mar 4, 2005
    #8
  9. .::SuperBLUE::.

    jimkramer Guest

    "bmoag" <> wrote in message
    news:O00Wd.3371$...
    > The EVF cameras are a new form factor. Most writers on this newsgroup
    > cannot wrap their head around that after a lifetime of SLR use and the
    > mantra of interchangeable lenses.
    > The digital world is not shackled to fixed optico-mechanical limitations.
    > If software could be used, in camera or in computer, to correct or create
    > lens aberrations effects, why would one need or want an SLR with its
    > larger and heavier form factor? The optical and mechanical properties of
    > any individual lens will be far less important than they are now. This is
    > already happening.
    > If the lens is fixed to the camera, as with EVF/prosumer cameras the
    > design of such software is made much easier.
    > A second line of development, also easier if the lens is fixed to the
    > camera, would involve in camera processing of data coming off the sensor
    > to widen the apparent exposure latitude of the sensor. A simple example
    > would be the ability to selectively decrease the signal amplitude coming
    > off the highlights to minimize blow-out of details in the highlights.
    > As sensor technology develops sensor size will not be the over-rated issue
    > it is today. Canon went to 8mps in its dSLR without increasing sensor size
    > and by most reports I have read that sensor has less noise than the Canon
    > 6mp dSLR sensor.
    > Since I use both EVF and dSLR cameras I will just say that people who have
    > not extensively worked with the images created by current 8mp EVF cameras
    > have no idea what they are talking about. My experience is that these
    > cameras used properly create images superior to identical images created
    > with current 6mp dSLRS simply because of the apparent sharpness added by
    > those 2mps of image data.
    > I have more bad images because of moire and fringing with my Nikon D70
    > than with my Sony 828. The amount of software sharpening required for
    > printing many D70 images is such that it is difficult to avoid a halo
    > effect that is far worse than any fringing at high contrast boundaries in
    > images made with current 8mp sensors.
    >

    I'm shooting with a Sony F828 and a Canon 10D. The 10D surpasses the image
    quality of the F828 hands down both in overall print quality and at an
    individual pixel level. The 2 megapixels of extra data aren't significant
    in terms of the picture quality.
    Are you just using the kit lens with the D70? If so, try some better glass
    and compare again.

    Jim Kramer
     
    jimkramer, Mar 4, 2005
    #9
  10. .::SuperBLUE::.

    bob Guest

    bmoag wrote:
    > The optical and mechanical properties of any
    > individual lens will be far less important than they are now. This is
    > already happening.


    There's still only so much you can do with software to correct poor
    optics. There's no reason these advances should be limited to lower end
    cameras though. DSLR makers could easily put the transformation
    algorithms on a chip in the individual lenses.

    > A second line of development, also easier if the lens is fixed to the
    > camera, would involve in camera processing of data coming off the sensor to
    > widen the apparent exposure latitude of the sensor. A simple example would


    Nikon has had that in the Coolpix line to an extent for years. The call
    it contrast adjustment. I find the expansion more useful than the
    compression, by and large.

    Bob
     
    bob, Mar 4, 2005
    #10
  11. .::SuperBLUE::.

    Alfred Molon Guest

    Re: Question

    In article <MRRVd.43916$xt.29880@fed1read07>, Skip M says...

    > And a sincere one, too. If the Sony 828 and Nikon 8800 are "prosumer"
    > cameras, then what is the Canon 20D?


    It's a DLSR. Cameras as the Sony 828, Olympus 8080, Canon G2 are all
    prosumers. There has always been a consensus about this.
    --

    Alfred Molon
    ------------------------------
    Olympus 4040, 5050, 5060, 7070, 8080, E300 forum at
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MyOlympus/
    Olympus 8080 resource - http://myolympus.org/8080/
     
    Alfred Molon, Mar 4, 2005
    #11
  12. .::SuperBLUE::.

    Alfred Molon Guest

    In article <d08j8d$j12$>, .::SuperBLUE::. says...
    > Does anyone have any info about what will the next prosumer generation
    > cameras look like? How many "megapixels"?
    > The next generation of sony 828, nikon 8800?


    Obviously a camera with more pixels, the only question is how many and
    when. Hard to make guesses, but there should be 10 and 12 MP models
    sooner or later.
    --

    Alfred Molon
    ------------------------------
    Olympus 4040, 5050, 5060, 7070, 8080, E300 forum at
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MyOlympus/
    Olympus 8080 resource - http://myolympus.org/8080/
     
    Alfred Molon, Mar 4, 2005
    #12
  13. some general thoughts:
    the race for higher resolution dominates present camera models. this will
    probably peter out when we reach 25 Megs - about the resolution of decent
    oldfashioned film cameras. I'd say, give it another 2 yrs.
    my personal suggestion for the next generation: a built-in tap for
    piping-hot, freshly-brewed coffee.

    ".::SuperBLUE::." <> wrote in message
    news:d08j8d$j12$...
    > Does anyone have any info about what will the next prosumer generation
    > cameras look like? How many "megapixels"?
    > The next generation of sony 828, nikon 8800?
    >
    >
     
    Yehuda Paradise, Mar 4, 2005
    #13
  14. .::SuperBLUE::.

    Guest

    Alfred Molon wrote:

    > Obviously a camera with more pixels, the only question is how many

    and
    > when. Hard to make guesses, but there should be 10 and 12 MP models
    > sooner or later.


    Don't get so fixated on megapixels. We've already seen what happens
    when the pixel size gets too small, both in compact cameras, and the
    4:3 style of D-SLRs. Canon, Sony, Nikon, and Olympus did not get rave
    reviews of their 8 megapixel compacts, due to noise issues, and the
    Olympus E system, with its tiny sensor, also has not done well.

    I think that Canon will introduce a non-SLR with a CMOS sensor of their
    own design, i.e. Pro 2.

    It's interesting that the new Digital Rebel XT EOS-350D is about the
    same size and weight of the Pro 1.

    Steve
    http://digitalslrinfo.com
     
    , Mar 4, 2005
    #14
  15. .::SuperBLUE::.

    Chris Brown Guest

    Re: Question

    In article <>,
    Alfred Molon <> wrote:
    >In article <MRRVd.43916$xt.29880@fed1read07>, Skip M says...
    >
    >> And a sincere one, too. If the Sony 828 and Nikon 8800 are "prosumer"
    >> cameras, then what is the Canon 20D?

    >
    >It's a DLSR. Cameras as the Sony 828, Olympus 8080, Canon G2 are all
    >prosumers. There has always been a consensus about this.


    No there hasn't. If you remember back to the introduction of the EOS D30, it
    was widely hailed as the "first prosumer digital camera".
     
    Chris Brown, Mar 4, 2005
    #15
  16. .::SuperBLUE::.

    Skip M Guest

    Re: Question

    "Alfred Molon" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > In article <MRRVd.43916$xt.29880@fed1read07>, Skip M says...
    >
    >> And a sincere one, too. If the Sony 828 and Nikon 8800 are "prosumer"
    >> cameras, then what is the Canon 20D?

    >
    > It's a DLSR. Cameras as the Sony 828, Olympus 8080, Canon G2 are all
    > prosumers. There has always been a consensus about this.
    > --
    >
    > Alfred Molon
    > ------------------------------
    > Olympus 4040, 5050, 5060, 7070, 8080, E300 forum at
    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MyOlympus/
    > Olympus 8080 resource - http://myolympus.org/8080/


    Alfred, often you constitute a consensus of one. Of course, the 20D is a
    DSLR, that wasn't in question. Isn't there a distinction between a
    "prosumer" fixed lens camera and a "prosumer" DSLR? Because the 20D isn't a
    full on pro camera, like the 1D mkII, nor is it a consumer grade camera,
    like the RebelD/300D.
    --
    Skip Middleton
    http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
     
    Skip M, Mar 5, 2005
    #16
  17. .::SuperBLUE::.

    Skip M Guest

    <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > The cameras you talk about are (at best) mid-range consumer cameras.
    > Prosumer does not start until you get past the 300D, D70, *1Ds, and E1
    > cameras;
    >


    I'm guessing that you mean "*istD" not *1Ds...
    And the Oly E-1 is a solid prosumer camera.

    --
    Skip Middleton
    http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
     
    Skip M, Mar 5, 2005
    #17
  18. .::SuperBLUE::.

    Barry Bean Guest

    "Skip M" <> wrote in news:TD8Wd.44056$xt.13029
    @fed1read07:

    > <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> The cameras you talk about are (at best) mid-range consumer cameras.
    >> Prosumer does not start until you get past the 300D, D70, *1Ds, and E1
    >> cameras;

    >
    > I'm guessing that you mean "*istD" not *1Ds...
    > And the Oly E-1 is a solid prosumer camera.


    "Prosumer" is a meaningless category. Pros use what works, whether that's a
    $20K Canon or a beat up OM-1. Consumers use whatever they want. A
    "prosumer" is presumably a serious photographer, or at least wants very
    fine equipment. His needs are not mutually exclusive from either
    professionals or consumers, but there is no common thread between various
    prosumers in the same way that there is between professional s who simply
    demand reliable high performance.
     
    Barry Bean, Mar 5, 2005
    #18
  19. .::SuperBLUE::.

    Confused Guest

    Re: Question

    On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 20:03:18 +0100
    In message <>
    Posted from Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
    Alfred Molon <> wrote:

    > In article <MRRVd.43916$xt.29880@fed1read07>, Skip M says...
    >
    > > And a sincere one, too. If the Sony 828 and Nikon 8800 are "prosumer"
    > > cameras, then what is the Canon 20D?

    >
    > It's a DLSR. Cameras as the Sony 828, Olympus 8080, Canon G2 are all
    > prosumers. There has always been a consensus about this.


    No no no... that's the brainwashing of marketing departments.

    If one is a "prosumer" the other is a "prosucker".

    Jeff
     
    Confused, Mar 5, 2005
    #19
  20. "bmoag" <> writes:
    >If software could be used, in camera or in computer, to correct or create
    >lens aberrations effects, why would one need or want an SLR with its larger
    >and heavier form factor? The optical and mechanical properties of any
    >individual lens will be far less important than they are now.


    I think you vastly overrate software correction of aberrations.

    There is one aberration, geometric distortion, that is well-suited to
    correction in this manner. If a lens has only geometric distortion, all
    the light from a point in the subject converges to a single point in the
    image, so the image is *sharp*, but the point isn't in quite the right
    place. The process of fixing the image is simply one of taking a sharp
    image and slightly "warping" it to put the pixels in the right spot
    geometrically. This isn't too expensive, and can be done with almost no
    loss of picture information.

    But pretty much all other lens aberrations map a point in the subject to
    an *area* in the image. The distribution of the light depends on which
    aberration you're talking about, but the effect is loss of sharpness
    that you can't generally get back. Some information from the source is
    lost forever, no matter how much computer power you're prepared to throw
    at the problem.

    Dave
     
    Dave Martindale, Mar 5, 2005
    #20
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