Programming

Discussion in 'Computer Information' started by CLV3, Dec 15, 2005.

  1. CLV3

    CLV3 Guest

    Greetings all. I went to school for Hardware, electronics and networking and
    I am **fairly** knowledgable in these areas. HOWEVER, I would like to learn
    more in the programming areas. Is there a language that you would suggest to
    start with to learn the basics involved? I have heard Visual Basic would be
    fairly simple yet gives you some background. What do you all think?
    CLV3, Dec 15, 2005
    #1
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  2. CLV3

    Duane Arnold Guest

    "CLV3" <> wrote in message
    news:eHmof.2923$0z.728@trndny02...
    > Greetings all. I went to school for Hardware, electronics and networking
    > and
    > I am **fairly** knowledgable in these areas. HOWEVER, I would like to
    > learn
    > more in the programming areas. Is there a language that you would suggest
    > to
    > start with to learn the basics involved? I have heard Visual Basic would
    > be
    > fairly simple yet gives you some background. What do you all think?
    >
    >


    VB6 or VB.NET should be your choice.

    Duane :)
    Duane Arnold, Dec 16, 2005
    #2
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  3. CLV3

    CLV3 Guest


    > VB6 or VB.NET should be your choice.
    >
    > Duane :)
    >
    >


    Thank you. I have seen various books available that teach you. I will check
    into them. Thanks again for your quick reply and thanks even more for not
    being an ass about it. I know that we have more and more people in the NGs
    who attack people for asking simple questions (oftetimes thinking they are
    sounding funny).
    CLV3, Dec 16, 2005
    #3
  4. CLV3

    Plato Guest

    CLV3 wrote:
    >
    > Greetings all. I went to school for Hardware, electronics and networking and
    > I am **fairly** knowledgable in these areas. HOWEVER, I would like to learn
    > more in the programming areas. Is there a language that you would suggest to
    > start with to learn the basics involved? I have heard Visual Basic would be
    > fairly simple yet gives you some background. What do you all think?


    Call the computer head hunters and ask them what language is in demand.


    --
    http://www.bootdisk.com/
    Plato, Dec 16, 2005
    #4
  5. CLV3

    yootzee Guest

    Coming from a hardware background to programming (and then back to hardware
    and networking again)...VB, and especially .NET, are very easy to learn.
    But not ideal, if for no other reason than it hides a lot of the programming
    from the 'programmer', and is not compatible with anything other than
    Windows.

    A good place to start is with a linear language like C, and then once you
    have the basics of programming down (not just how to use a particular
    language), then move on to an object oriented language like C++ or Java.



    "CLV3" <> wrote in message
    news:eHmof.2923$0z.728@trndny02...
    > Greetings all. I went to school for Hardware, electronics and networking
    > and
    > I am **fairly** knowledgable in these areas. HOWEVER, I would like to
    > learn
    > more in the programming areas. Is there a language that you would suggest
    > to
    > start with to learn the basics involved? I have heard Visual Basic would
    > be
    > fairly simple yet gives you some background. What do you all think?
    >
    >
    yootzee, Dec 18, 2005
    #5
  6. CLV3

    Bolshoy Huy Guest

    Assembly is good for anyone who is serious about hardware.

    Then C++ (forget C, you will learn bad habits).
    then Java perhaps.

    ..Net is a marketing gimmick.

    Old Bill knows programming is dead as a profession in the US, so he is
    pushing this .Net bs on college students.
    Bolshoy Huy, Dec 18, 2005
    #6
  7. CLV3

    Duane Arnold Guest

    "Bolshoy Huy" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Assembly is good for anyone who is serious about hardware.
    >
    > Then C++ (forget C, you will learn bad habits).
    > then Java perhaps.
    >
    > .Net is a marketing gimmick.
    >
    > Old Bill knows programming is dead as a profession in the US, so he is
    > pushing this .Net bs on college students.
    >


    That's kind of funny and ridiculous since I am making a ton of money
    contracting using .Net CO# and VB.

    I suggest you go to www.monster.com or www.dice.com and enter .Net and go to
    the major cites in the US and look at the jobs requirements.

    Duane :)
    Duane Arnold, Dec 19, 2005
    #7
  8. CLV3

    Duane Arnold Guest

    "Duane Arnold" <> wrote in message
    news:AWmpf.4325$...
    >
    > "Bolshoy Huy" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> Assembly is good for anyone who is serious about hardware.
    >>
    >> Then C++ (forget C, you will learn bad habits).
    >> then Java perhaps.
    >>
    >> .Net is a marketing gimmick.
    >>
    >> Old Bill knows programming is dead as a profession in the US, so he is
    >> pushing this .Net bs on college students.
    >>

    >
    > That's kind of funny and ridiculous since I am making a ton of money
    > contracting using .Net CO# and VB.
    >
    > I suggest you go to www.monster.com or www.dice.com and enter .Net and go
    > to the major cites in the US and look at the jobs requirements.
    >
    > Duane :)
    >

    Correction

    That is C# .Net.

    Duane :)
    Duane Arnold, Dec 19, 2005
    #8
  9. CLV3

    Bolshoy Huy Guest

    "I suggest you go to www.monster.com or www.dice.com and enter .Net and
    go to
    the major cites in the US and look at the jobs requirements."

    good 4 u. however, for every programmer who does make $ in this biz, 10
    more aint.
    the fact is that programming, just as Howard Stern said, is the last of
    a dying breed.

    whatever happened to paper certs such as A+, MCP, MCSE, Novell? Why
    doesnt anyone want to get them anymore?
    Why has enrollment in CIS dropped by %35?
    Why should me bossman pay me $20/hr, if he could pay an Indian $2/hr?

    Why have %75 of dot.coms shut down in major cities such as NYC, SF?

    Finally, why dont programmers have a union?
    [oh, wait, the NYNMA did shut down in 2002 lol]
    Bolshoy Huy, Dec 19, 2005
    #9
  10. CLV3

    Duane Arnold Guest

    "Bolshoy Huy" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > "I suggest you go to www.monster.com or www.dice.com and enter .Net and
    > go to
    > the major cites in the US and look at the jobs requirements."
    >
    > good 4 u. however, for every programmer who does make $ in this biz, 10
    > more aint.
    > the fact is that programming, just as Howard Stern said, is the last of
    > a dying breed.


    Everyone has opinions and they are a dime a dozen..
    >
    > whatever happened to paper certs such as A+, MCP, MCSE, Novell? Why
    > doesnt anyone want to get them anymore?


    I have a MCP for .Net and working on the MCAD for .Net. and if you got it on
    the resume you can demand more money.

    > Why has enrollment in CIS dropped by %35?
    > Why should me bossman pay me $20/hr, if he could pay an Indian $2/hr?


    I am working with people from India on a project right now and you can bet
    they are not getting paid $2 an hour. I am also contracting through a
    company that's owned by people out of India and you can best believe I am
    not making $2 and hour either.

    >
    > Why have %75 of dot.coms shut down in major cities such as NYC, SF?


    What are you talking about? .Net programming although it is Internet centric
    is not only for Internet applications as one can develop .Net Windows, NT
    Service which I am doing now, Web Service which Windows desktop
    applications can consume those services and ASP applications. You can also
    use .Net to program many devices like ceular phones, bar coding and many
    other such devices.
    >
    > Finally, why dont programmers have a union?
    > [oh, wait, the NYNMA did shut down in 2002 lol]


    I have been programming since 1980 done Assembler C, C++, the whole nine
    yards and programming when Apple was in a wodden box. I have never been in a
    God Damn union in companies that where unioned and don't ever want to be any
    in one either.

    If I thought you really knew anything about programming to make money and
    put food on the table or about .NET you would be dangerious. You are not!
    The only dangerious part about you is that you don't know waht you're
    talking about and you need to run your mouth.

    ..NET and programming jobs in the US are not going anywhere. Legacy
    application running in companies running on mainframes and client servers
    are being converted to .Net. New specifications, requirements etc, etc are
    being written to use .NET companies are moving to .NET and converting
    applications as they go to .Net.

    HTTP://www.mono-project.com/Mono:About
    http://www.dotnetpowered.com/languages.aspx
    http://msdn.microsoft.com/netframework/ecma/
    http://pluralsight.com/blogs/hsutter/archive/2005/09/22/14970.aspx
    http://msdn.microsoft.com/visualc/homepageheadlines/ecma/default.aspx

    The bottom line here is that you're not a programmer making a living at it
    and you don't know what you're talking about.

    Duane :)
    Duane Arnold, Dec 19, 2005
    #10
  11. CLV3

    Fakename Guest

    The CIS programmer that I work with makes much more than I do.


    Bolshoy Huy wrote:
    > "I suggest you go to www.monster.com or www.dice.com and enter .Net and
    > go to
    > the major cites in the US and look at the jobs requirements."
    >
    > good 4 u. however, for every programmer who does make $ in this biz, 10
    > more aint.
    > the fact is that programming, just as Howard Stern said, is the last of
    > a dying breed.
    >
    > whatever happened to paper certs such as A+, MCP, MCSE, Novell? Why
    > doesnt anyone want to get them anymore?
    > Why has enrollment in CIS dropped by %35?
    > Why should me bossman pay me $20/hr, if he could pay an Indian $2/hr?
    >
    > Why have %75 of dot.coms shut down in major cities such as NYC, SF?
    >
    > Finally, why dont programmers have a union?
    > [oh, wait, the NYNMA did shut down in 2002 lol]
    >
    Fakename, Dec 20, 2005
    #11
  12. CLV3

    Bolshoy Huy Guest

    > whatever happened to paper certs such as A+, MCP, MCSE, Novell? Why
    > doesnt anyone want to get them anymore?


    I have a MCP for .Net and working on the MCAD for .Net. and if you got
    it on
    the resume you can demand more money.

    --did you say 'DEMAND'? You mean like walking in to an interview and
    waving your fist at
    the HR person yelling:" I just paid $3500 for an MCSE course, and then
    answered 10 questions, and got me a piece of toilet paper which says
    MCSE on it, and I DEMAND you pay me $35/hr, instead of outsourcing my
    job to India for $2/hr"

    > Why has enrollment in CIS dropped by %35?


    --no explanation for this one I see. Why has Telecom as a major and a
    career _completely_ collapsed in the US?

    > Why should me bossman pay me $20/hr, if he could pay an Indian $2/hr?


    I am working with people from India on a project right now and you can
    bet
    they are not getting paid $2 an hour.

    --yes, they graduated from school here; I am talking about people in
    India, Russia, China, etc.

    > Why have %75 of dot.coms shut down in major cities such as NYC, SF?


    What are you talking about? .Net programming although it is Internet
    centric
    is not only for Internet applications as one can develop .Net Windows,
    NT

    --who cares. Ever heard of the dot.com bubble? The fact is that _no
    one_
    is going to be foolish enough anymore to invest in start-ups with IPO
    and caviar dreams
    who employ Frontpagers, script kiddies, and 20 year old Flash wizards.

    > Finally, why dont programmers have a union?
    > [oh, wait, the NYNMA did shut down in 2002 lol]


    I have never been in a
    God Damn union in companies that where unioned and don't ever want to
    be any
    in one either.

    --good 4 u, as you might be forced to go on a strike like our NYC MTA
    workers just did.

    If I thought you really knew anything about programming to make money
    and
    put food on the table or about .NET you would be dangerious. You are
    not!
    The only dangerious part about you is that you don't know waht you're
    talking about and you need to run your mouth.

    ..NET and programming jobs in the US are not going anywhere. Legacy
    application running in companies running on mainframes and client
    servers

    --the fact is that programming is dead; just as textile, furniture, and
    electronis factories in the US, the labor was and is going to continue
    to be offshored.
    Bolshoy Huy, Dec 20, 2005
    #12
  13. CLV3

    Duane Arnold Guest

    "Bolshoy Huy" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >> whatever happened to paper certs such as A+, MCP, MCSE, Novell? Why
    >> doesnt anyone want to get them anymore?

    >
    > I have a MCP for .Net and working on the MCAD for .Net. and if you got
    > it on
    > the resume you can demand more money.
    >
    > --did you say 'DEMAND'? You mean like walking in to an interview and
    > waving your fist at
    > the HR person yelling:" I just paid $3500 for an MCSE course, and then
    > answered 10 questions, and got me a piece of toilet paper which says
    > MCSE on it, and I DEMAND you pay me $35/hr, instead of outsourcing my
    > job to India for $2/hr"


    You moron I paid $125 to take the MCP test. $150 for the MCP I was studying
    for material. NO, you wet behind the ear and Pamper stuck to your ass clown.
    I used an Executive Recruiting Firm when I was looking for fulltime
    employment and when consulting going through consulting firms and my price
    was set upfront before anything went any further. They look for me and come
    after me. I don't go looking for them.

    >
    >> Why has enrollment in CIS dropped by %35?

    >
    > --no explanation for this one I see. Why has Telecom as a major and a
    > career _completely_ collapsed in the US?


    Who cares about it? Companies come and they go. The company invested money
    where it shouldn't have and it got caught.


    >
    >> Why should me bossman pay me $20/hr, if he could pay an Indian $2/hr?

    >
    > I am working with people from India on a project right now and you can
    > bet
    > they are not getting paid $2 an hour.
    >
    > --yes, ; I am talking about people in
    > India, Russia, China, etc.


    The people didn't go to school here. Do you know how much it cost to get a
    work visa here and come to work in the US, which those companies pay to have
    them work here? The visa cost $1,000 of dollars. Do you think those people
    want to work here in the US so are away from there loved ones? They have no
    choice as this is where the jobs are at.

    They are all coming here to work and then they go back home for awhile and
    then they get another contract and they come back. And the reason this is
    happening is because the work force of programmers in the US don't know how
    to use .NET to date.

    >
    >> Why have %75 of dot.coms shut down in major cities such as NYC, SF?

    >
    > What are you talking about? .Net programming although it is Internet
    > centric
    > is not only for Internet applications as one can develop .Net Windows,
    > NT
    >
    > --who cares. Ever heard of the dot.com bubble? The fact is that _no
    > one_
    > is going to be foolish enough anymore to invest in start-ups with IPO
    > and caviar dreams
    > who employ Frontpagers, script kiddies, and 20 year old Flash wizards.


    Who cares about what you're talking about. The whole world and businesses
    using business solutions to do their business are not running on the
    Internet you moron. Have you ever heard of the Intranet and how companies
    use Intranet bossiness solutions and what that means in a company's day to
    day business? Do you know what legacy background or batch processing
    applications dealing with transactions mean? Do you think that everything is
    happening online and in real time and it's all the Internet, then you are a
    fool.

    >
    >> Finally, why dont programmers have a union?
    >> [oh, wait, the NYNMA did shut down in 2002 lol]

    >
    > I have never been in a
    > God Damn union in companies that where unioned and don't ever want to
    > be any
    > in one either.
    >
    > --good 4 u, as you might be forced to go on a strike like our NYC MTA
    > workers just did.


    LOL I am an independent CONTRACTOR. Do you know what that means? If
    anything, they would come looking for me to continue the work and fore fill
    obligations and projects they had in the works and needed to complete and
    keep on going..

    >
    > If I thought you really knew anything about programming to make money
    > and
    > put food on the table or about .NET you would be dangerious. You are
    > not!
    > The only dangerious part about you is that you don't know waht you're
    > talking about and you need to run your mouth.
    >
    > .NET and programming jobs in the US are not going anywhere. Legacy
    > application running in companies running on mainframes and client
    > servers


    >
    > --the fact is that programming is dead; just as textile, furniture, and
    > electronis factories in the US, the labor was and is going to continue
    > to be offshored.


    Once again, in some areas that is happening where things can be developed
    off shore. In a vast majority of other areas it is not happing in IT. Just
    like the companies I have worked in where they are numerous contractors that
    have been brought in to contract, because the company doesn't have the
    manpower to complete the project in a timely fashion. They are coming into
    do the work right at the client's site and there is no need to send anything
    off shore. What happens after the initial project was done off shore and
    implemeted in a company in the US? What happens to new requests that a
    end-user may ask the IT department to do to the application do you think
    it's going offshore again so that can be done or do you think that's going
    to be done by in-house staff or by contractors that may come in to do the
    work if the company has man power committed elsewhere? Do you think
    everything is new devlopment ? Do you even know what a development life
    cycle is about? Do you know what developing business solutions are about?

    Why don't you go ask Howard and let him change your Pamper? <g>

    Duane :)

    ..
    Duane Arnold, Dec 20, 2005
    #13
  14. CLV3

    Bolshoy Huy Guest

    "Do you think those people want to work here in the US so are away
    from there loved ones? They have no choice as this is where the jobs
    are at.
    They are all coming here to work and then they go back home for awhile
    and
    then they get another contract and they come back. "

    --like I said, IT is dead in America as it is more and more done either
    offshore or
    by H1B workers, etc.
    Americans DO NOT want to major in CIS anymore as they smell a rat; and
    the rat is M$
    with its .Net crap.
    Bolshoy Huy, Dec 21, 2005
    #14
  15. CLV3

    Duane Arnold Guest

    One other thing here you know nothing *clown*, that $20 an hour minimum wage
    that I doubt that you're even making that, you entry level or you may not
    even have a job in the industry you Howard Stern ass kissing little turd,
    you need to $20 * 2 minimum, $20 * 3 mid-range, and $20 * 4 and up top level
    ..NET contractor.

    And in a town of 90K where they do have a multi billon dollar global
    manufacturing company in the middle of corn country head quartered there and
    manufacturing plants there and around the world, they paid a .NET developer
    $100K to start fulltime. And that $3500 you think I paid for an MCP -- no
    way or an MCAD - no way when I get that, was paid by the company on me and
    for each client server programming staff member training each 8 hours a day
    for four weeks on the ins and outs of .NET as they flew in a .NET guru from
    India to train the staff -- not the contractors. That compnay that runs
    mainframe and client server platforms will hire contractors from India or
    any where they can get them, bring them on site and have them do what is
    needed new development or maintenance and send them packing. There is
    absolutely no way that company is going to send anything off shore to be
    programmed.

    The same holds true for the billion dollar medical company I am now working
    at as a contractor with the 3 guys from India. It is heavily regulated and
    audited, there is absolutely no way, that company is going to send anything
    off shore to be programmed and they meet their programming business needs by
    hiring contractors when needed any where they can get qualified people.

    There are many companies in the US that have that similar situation and will
    not outsource the programming needs of the company unless they bring in
    outside contractors on site to for fill staffing needs. There may be a need
    to have some offshore development work for 3rd party canned packages. But if
    the programming needs for the day to day business operations of a company
    like the ones above and there many, many and more many of those companies
    like that in the US, they are going to have in-house staff or have
    contratcors come in when needed for their outsourcing to complete
    programming business needs for the company. They are not sending anything
    offshore there is no way that's going to happen -- NONE.

    You have no clue. <G>

    Duane :)
    Duane Arnold, Dec 21, 2005
    #15
  16. CLV3

    Duane Arnold Guest

    >
    > --like I said, IT is dead in America as it is more and more done either
    > offshore or
    > by H1B workers, etc.
    > Americans DO NOT want to major in CIS anymore as they smell a rat; and
    > the rat is M$


    What they means if any of it comes to light and it won't that much as
    there maybe a little bit of it happening where some application may go
    offshore, is that people like you who thought you had a chance to get
    into the IT field will not be able to do it with the ease people like
    you were able to do it back in 1999 and up to 2001 that were absolute
    *clowns* coming out of college with a BS or AA in CIS in hand and
    actually didn't know *jack* like they were going to work at Taco Bell.
    Those jobs that the dot.com bubble gum/beauty/glamor jobs produced that
    everyone in that mind set were going after are gone and it's not ever
    coming back. It should have never happened in the first place as fools
    with money started investing huge amounts of money that didn't
    understand IT, the Internet, technology or business needs.

    What this will mean in the future if CIS enrollment in colleges is
    dropping is that only the elite will come into the IT field here in the
    US again in IT with degree in hand like was happing back in the 70's
    when there was no CIS course and you had to be top of the line, Top Gun,
    and head of the class and you graduated from a computer school such as
    Control Data Institute back in the 70's and the rift raft didn't
    approach it or make it out or in the late 80's when the CIS course in
    colleges were being implemented and only the best could make it.

    Any IT programming jobs outsourced overseas are going to be canned
    packaged rift raft bubble gum/beauty/glamor type applications any *fool*
    can develop where it doesn't take high end-user interface in the
    development life cycle in business solutions like most companies will
    still need. No high end-user, business analysis, integration tester, and
    other programming staff that support the solutions in-house etc etc
    are going to be on the phone or teleconferencing with someone overseas
    trying to make someone understand the business solution needs that the
    program/application is to accomplish for the company that most likely
    must interface with other application business solutions in the company.

    What it really means is that the rift raft like yourself will not have a
    chance and only the best will be coming back into IT in the US. It's
    going back to the have and the have not(s) and only the best need apply.

    > with its .Net crap.
    >


    ..NET is on the scene because of the fallout between MS and Sun Micro
    System about the use of JAVA. When the two couldn't see eye to eye
    anymore, MS decided it would do it's own thing and they developed .NET
    which is a standard like JAVA is a standard that has been approved and
    ..NET is controlled and owned by the ECMA and ISO and is not owned or
    controlled by MS where MS, Sun Micro System, IBM, Novell, HP , Intel and
    other technology leaders sit on those committees and control what
    happens to .NET.

    The only proprietary element in .NET is VB .Net and MS owns that.

    ..NET is being used in companies and will be used in companies and is not
    going anywhere you can count on it. :)

    Duane :)
    Duane Arnold, Dec 23, 2005
    #16
  17. CLV3

    Bolshoy Huy Guest

    ".NET is being used in companies and will be used in companies and is
    not
    going anywhere you can count on it. :)
    Duane :) "

    ....until some jack in the box comes up with some new concept that
    improves on it,
    markets it, pays millions to colleges to trick CIS majors into taking
    the courses,
    dumps his stock 1 day before it crashes...
    ....and sits on the Cayman islands drinking Pina Coladas while some
    other jack in the box comes up with something new.
    Bolshoy Huy, Dec 23, 2005
    #17
  18. CLV3

    Duane Arnold Guest

    "Bolshoy Huy" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > ".NET is being used in companies and will be used in companies and is
    > not
    > going anywhere you can count on it. :)
    > Duane :) "
    >
    > ...until some jack in the box comes up with some new concept that
    > improves on it,
    > markets it, pays millions to colleges to trick CIS majors into taking
    > the courses,
    > dumps his stock 1 day before it crashes...
    > ...and sits on the Cayman islands drinking Pina Coladas while some
    > other jack in the box comes up with something new.
    >


    Yeah like you know and you're in the industry and you got your finger on the
    IT pulse her in the US. You need to get on your Red tri-cycle and start
    making your way to Jack-in-The-Box where you have programmed the fryers to
    be heated and ready for you when you it the door.

    You're late<g>

    I got to go to work in a real IT job down the street form the hotel.

    Duane :).
    Duane Arnold, Dec 23, 2005
    #18
  19. CLV3

    Bolshoy Huy Guest

    Bolshoy Huy, Dec 25, 2005
    #19
  20. CLV3

    Duane Arnold Guest

    "Bolshoy Huy" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > "I suggest you go to www.monster.com or www.dice.com and enter .Net
    > and go to
    > the major cites in the US and look at the jobs requirements.
    > Duane :) "
    >
    >
    > http://jobsearch.usajobs.opm.gov/?WT.svl=searchbutton
    >
    > NYC -> IT
    >
    > No jobs matched the query
    >
    > got anything else to say to CIS college students
    > oh wise man of IT paper certs?


    You absolute silly *clown* apparently you cannot even do that right. What? I
    got to warm your bottle and change you damn Pamper too?

    http://www.dice.com/

    Here let me help you little one.

    1) You click on the link above.
    2) You select the New York link -- left side of screen
    3) Then enter .Net in the *Search Box*

    www.monster.com

    1) You click on the link above.
    2) Select Job search
    3) Enter .Net in the Search field
    3) Select Information Technology
    4) Select New York City, NY

    I did the same thing with that chicken-shit job search link you provided
    and NOTHING. No wonder you can't find a damn job with that bubble gum link
    of yours.

    You should get on the tri-cycle and paddle to the Pacific realm countries or
    maybe India and work your way back to the US and maybe you'll find a job in
    the US in IT. <g>

    And you graduated from a college and majored in CIS? What college was that
    Pamper State? You don't deserve any job in the US not even one as a janitor.
    <g>

    Duane :)
    Duane Arnold, Dec 26, 2005
    #20
    1. Advertising

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