Private Frame Relay steps

Discussion in 'Cisco' started by xlate101@yahoo.com, Nov 16, 2003.

  1. Guest

    I deal with a trucking company that wants to set up a private FR
    network with 11 branches in US. They want at least T1 speed on all
    links. Is the best solution to provision dedicated T1s to central
    office (hub-spoke stuff) and get an Adtran FR switch? Also, do any
    major carriers provide private FR services? I'm guessing that they
    would let you own your own switches and give you some sort of qOS on
    the "public" FR link. I've never set up something like this before and
    can't find any good sources on the web re this topic. Any links would
    help.

    Thanks -
    - Lester
    , Nov 16, 2003
    #1
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  2. Scooby Guest

    You can not provide your own frame relay services. All you really do is get
    Frame Relay services from a provider and use a FRAD or router to access the
    frame relay network. The Frame switch belong to the telco giving you
    service. Yes, the major carriers do provide Frame Relay. Since you have a
    spread out network, that is the place to start.

    However, I think if I was setting that up, I'd take a good hard look at the
    companies offering an MPLS solution.

    Also, if qos it not really an issue, perhaps redundant broadband links to
    each site would be a better solution and much cheaper.

    Frame relay is pretty simple really. Just think of it as the same as a point
    to point connection, only you don't need 10 csu/dsu units at your main
    location. You put in a router just the same as you would for a p2p
    connection. Just configure the encapsulation as frame instead of ppp or
    hdlc. These things auto recognize the virtual circuits that the telco sets
    up for you (pvc). So, it is mostly plug and play. A real good way to learn
    about this stuff is to call the telco and tell them you are thinking of a
    Frame Relay solution. They'll come in an give you a real good explanation
    about how it works. And, yes, you can run your own qos on it. But, keep in
    mind when you order the circuits about CIR (commited information rate)- when
    you order a circuit you order circuit speed and CIR. The circuit speed is
    what your maximum throughput is (T1 for example) while the CIR is what they
    promise you will always have available. They tend to oversubscribe their
    services, but not the CIR. So, you need CIR, but it comes at a price.

    That's the skinny, let me know if you have any more specific questions.
    And, good luck :)



    <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > I deal with a trucking company that wants to set up a private FR
    > network with 11 branches in US. They want at least T1 speed on all
    > links. Is the best solution to provision dedicated T1s to central
    > office (hub-spoke stuff) and get an Adtran FR switch? Also, do any
    > major carriers provide private FR services? I'm guessing that they
    > would let you own your own switches and give you some sort of qOS on
    > the "public" FR link. I've never set up something like this before and
    > can't find any good sources on the web re this topic. Any links would
    > help.
    >
    > Thanks -
    > - Lester
    Scooby, Nov 16, 2003
    #2
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  3. Doug Guest

    > Frame relay is pretty simple really. Just think of it as the same as a point
    > to point connection, only you don't need 10 csu/dsu units at your main
    > location. You put in a router just the same as you would for a p2p
    > connection. Just configure the encapsulation as frame instead of ppp or
    > hdlc. These things auto recognize the virtual circuits that the telco sets
    > up for you (pvc). So, it is mostly plug and play. A real good way to learn
    > about this stuff is to call the telco and tell them you are thinking of a
    > Frame Relay solution. They'll come in an give you a real good explanation
    > about how it works. And, yes, you can run your own qos on it. But, keep in
    > mind when you order the circuits about CIR (commited information rate)- when
    > you order a circuit you order circuit speed and CIR. The circuit speed is
    > what your maximum throughput is (T1 for example) while the CIR is what they
    > promise you will always have available. They tend to oversubscribe their
    > services, but not the CIR. So, you need CIR, but it comes at a price.
    >


    > > I deal with a trucking company that wants to set up a private FR
    > > network with 11 branches in US. They want at least T1 speed on all
    > > links. Is the best solution to provision dedicated T1s to central
    > > office (hub-spoke stuff) and get an Adtran FR switch? Also, do any
    > > major carriers provide private FR services? I'm guessing that they
    > > would let you own your own switches and give you some sort of qOS on
    > > the "public" FR link. I've never set up something like this before and
    > > can't find any good sources on the web re this topic. Any links would
    > > help.
    > >
    > > Thanks -
    > > - Lester


    Another problem you will run into with regards to CIR's, and the other
    person elluded to, is the oversubscription/overbooking. You envision
    a wagon wheel type setup, and I assume it's 11 branch offices and 1
    hub. I've only dealt with SBC for frame and their rules, so your
    provider may differ. SBC will only allow you to overbook 300%. So
    if your hub has a T1, you can only connect 3 remote T1's at full CIR.
    With 11 remote sites, that would require 4 T1's be installed at the
    hub/host.

    So, it might be a better solution to get a lower grade T3 at the hub
    to accomodate the 11 full T1's at the remote locations. It also
    provides the ability to add more remote locations without much issue
    other than possible having to up the speed on the hub's T3.

    If the remote location have a need to communicate directly, then you
    get into a whole meshing boon-doggle and the frame goes from looking
    lke a wagon wheel to a spider web. Likewise the CIR requirements get
    messy. But for sure, with this type of scenario, frame is definitely
    the way to go!
    Doug, Nov 17, 2003
    #3
  4. Scooby Guest

    "Doug" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > > Frame relay is pretty simple really. Just think of it as the same as a

    point
    > > to point connection, only you don't need 10 csu/dsu units at your main
    > > location. You put in a router just the same as you would for a p2p
    > > connection. Just configure the encapsulation as frame instead of ppp or
    > > hdlc. These things auto recognize the virtual circuits that the telco

    sets
    > > up for you (pvc). So, it is mostly plug and play. A real good way to

    learn
    > > about this stuff is to call the telco and tell them you are thinking of

    a
    > > Frame Relay solution. They'll come in an give you a real good

    explanation
    > > about how it works. And, yes, you can run your own qos on it. But,

    keep in
    > > mind when you order the circuits about CIR (commited information rate)-

    when
    > > you order a circuit you order circuit speed and CIR. The circuit speed

    is
    > > what your maximum throughput is (T1 for example) while the CIR is what

    they
    > > promise you will always have available. They tend to oversubscribe

    their
    > > services, but not the CIR. So, you need CIR, but it comes at a price.
    > >

    >
    > > > I deal with a trucking company that wants to set up a private FR
    > > > network with 11 branches in US. They want at least T1 speed on all
    > > > links. Is the best solution to provision dedicated T1s to central
    > > > office (hub-spoke stuff) and get an Adtran FR switch? Also, do any
    > > > major carriers provide private FR services? I'm guessing that they
    > > > would let you own your own switches and give you some sort of qOS on
    > > > the "public" FR link. I've never set up something like this before and
    > > > can't find any good sources on the web re this topic. Any links would
    > > > help.
    > > >
    > > > Thanks -
    > > > - Lester

    >
    > Another problem you will run into with regards to CIR's, and the other
    > person elluded to, is the oversubscription/overbooking. You envision
    > a wagon wheel type setup, and I assume it's 11 branch offices and 1
    > hub. I've only dealt with SBC for frame and their rules, so your
    > provider may differ. SBC will only allow you to overbook 300%. So
    > if your hub has a T1, you can only connect 3 remote T1's at full CIR.
    > With 11 remote sites, that would require 4 T1's be installed at the
    > hub/host.
    >
    > So, it might be a better solution to get a lower grade T3 at the hub
    > to accomodate the 11 full T1's at the remote locations. It also
    > provides the ability to add more remote locations without much issue
    > other than possible having to up the speed on the hub's T3.
    >
    > If the remote location have a need to communicate directly, then you
    > get into a whole meshing boon-doggle and the frame goes from looking
    > lke a wagon wheel to a spider web. Likewise the CIR requirements get
    > messy. But for sure, with this type of scenario, frame is definitely
    > the way to go!


    Now, that rule makes no sense at all. Certainly, under most circumstances,
    you don't want to pay full CIR for 11 remote sites back to a single T1. It
    generally does not make good networking practice. But, I still can't see
    why SBC would restrict you from doing so. Let's say that you have all 11
    sites have no traffic 98% of the time. But, when they need it, they need to
    have it available and placing more T1's at thost location would just be an
    expesive solution for something you don't need.

    I do think SBC has the right idea with the oversubcription thoughts - just
    not forcing their customers to live by them. The only reason I think they
    could have for doing so is that they have fought too many loosing battles
    with customers and trying to convince them they are getting full CIR, but
    the customer's own logjam at the hub is causing a problem. Then you just
    get an unhappy customer with bad publicity while providing the customer
    exactly what he asked for.
    Scooby, Nov 17, 2003
    #4
  5. Doug Guest

    > > Another problem you will run into with regards to CIR's, and the other
    > > person elluded to, is the oversubscription/overbooking. You envision
    > > a wagon wheel type setup, and I assume it's 11 branch offices and 1
    > > hub. I've only dealt with SBC for frame and their rules, so your
    > > provider may differ. SBC will only allow you to overbook 300%. So
    > > if your hub has a T1, you can only connect 3 remote T1's at full CIR.
    > > With 11 remote sites, that would require 4 T1's be installed at the
    > > hub/host.
    > >
    > > So, it might be a better solution to get a lower grade T3 at the hub
    > > to accomodate the 11 full T1's at the remote locations. It also
    > > provides the ability to add more remote locations without much issue
    > > other than possible having to up the speed on the hub's T3.
    > >
    > > If the remote location have a need to communicate directly, then you
    > > get into a whole meshing boon-doggle and the frame goes from looking
    > > lke a wagon wheel to a spider web. Likewise the CIR requirements get
    > > messy. But for sure, with this type of scenario, frame is definitely
    > > the way to go!

    >
    > Now, that rule makes no sense at all. Certainly, under most circumstances,
    > you don't want to pay full CIR for 11 remote sites back to a single T1. It
    > generally does not make good networking practice. But, I still can't see
    > why SBC would restrict you from doing so. Let's say that you have all 11
    > sites have no traffic 98% of the time. But, when they need it, they need to
    > have it available and placing more T1's at thost location would just be an
    > expesive solution for something you don't need.
    >
    > I do think SBC has the right idea with the oversubcription thoughts - just
    > not forcing their customers to live by them. The only reason I think they
    > could have for doing so is that they have fought too many loosing battles
    > with customers and trying to convince them they are getting full CIR, but
    > the customer's own logjam at the hub is causing a problem. Then you just
    > get an unhappy customer with bad publicity while providing the customer
    > exactly what he asked for.


    Well, you could put the CIR's in the dirt with high bursts. You CAN
    have 11 T1's into 11, but the 11 would have to have CIR's of about
    512k with 1M bursts. But as you said, I don't think Lester (the
    original poster) would like the results... A fractional T3/DS3 on
    the host end would work best.....
    Doug, Nov 17, 2003
    #5
  6. Guest

    It looks like the owners don't want to go with external FR carriers.
    Back to my original "private" design. Does terminating 11 T1s at a
    central location make sense? I was thinking that if I have these lines
    in place, I can just route among the sites. What will FR do for me?
    Maybe stupid question but I'm no CCIE (yet).
    Thanks
    Lester
    , Nov 18, 2003
    #6
  7. Scooby Guest

    Lester,

    Not sure what your owners have against Frame. But, to answer your
    question... You really need to evaluate equipment costs, circuit costs and
    reasons for wanting the 11 T1's vs. the Frame before saying if it makes
    sense. In todays world, 11 T1's make sense less and less. If those 11
    sites are far away, p2p will become VERY expensive. If you can get a p2p T1
    for the same cost that the frame drop would cost, sure go for it. Seriously
    take a good hard look at MPLS and metro ethernet as well - you may find
    there is a good solution for you. I actually see my frame relay going away
    in the next couple years as I migrate to other options.

    Did the owners state why they don't want a FR network?

    Jim


    <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > It looks like the owners don't want to go with external FR carriers.
    > Back to my original "private" design. Does terminating 11 T1s at a
    > central location make sense? I was thinking that if I have these lines
    > in place, I can just route among the sites. What will FR do for me?
    > Maybe stupid question but I'm no CCIE (yet).
    > Thanks
    > Lester
    Scooby, Nov 18, 2003
    #7
  8. Guest

    > Did the owners state why they don't want a FR network?
    >

    Some other architect told them that private FR will be better for
    security and owing their own equipment will make them more self
    sufficient. I know they have $$ to blow but just want to make sure
    that the final implementation does not have any major design flaws.
    Any recommendations on switching gear that is best for this design? 11
    sites terminated in one location. I only know Adtran line.
    Thangs
    Lester
    , Nov 18, 2003
    #8
  9. Scooby Guest

    Okay, now I'm really confused... If they are going to the trouble of
    terminating 11 T1's in one location - then why even bother with Frame Relay?
    Frame Relay is supposed to keep from having the need to do just that with a
    second bonus of not being distance sensitve like p2p T1's are. Frame Relay
    is really just a bunch of p2p T1's into the telco's equipment. But, they
    have different Frame Switches in different CO's, which is why you don't have
    to pay the distance charge all the way back to the host.

    I guess if that was me setting it up and they wanted all the p2p T1's then
    I'd just get a router big enough to handle the expected traffic and use
    internal CSU/DSU cards. Adtran is CSU/DSU's. You can use them if you
    decide to use serial ports in the router instead of internal CSU/DSU units.



    <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > > Did the owners state why they don't want a FR network?
    > >

    > Some other architect told them that private FR will be better for
    > security and owing their own equipment will make them more self
    > sufficient. I know they have $$ to blow but just want to make sure
    > that the final implementation does not have any major design flaws.
    > Any recommendations on switching gear that is best for this design? 11
    > sites terminated in one location. I only know Adtran line.
    > Thangs
    > Lester
    Scooby, Nov 18, 2003
    #9
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