Printing Grayscale in Color?

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Mark Franzels, Apr 11, 2009.

  1. Hi,

    I noticed something weird.
    I converted a photo into grayscale in photoshop.
    I tried to print the grayscale photo using a printer
    with black ink enable only versus default.
    There is difference between them. The
    one where "black ink only" is NOT specified
    produced more detailed greyish image. But
    then isn't it that in grayscale image, it is
    supposed to be made up of pure black and
    white. How come the printer produced
    different outputs if it uses all colors to print
    the grayscale versus using entirely black
    ink??

    Mark
     
    Mark Franzels, Apr 11, 2009
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Mark Franzels

    Me Guest

    Mark Franzels wrote:
    > Hi,
    >
    > I noticed something weird.
    > I converted a photo into grayscale in photoshop.
    > I tried to print the grayscale photo using a printer
    > with black ink enable only versus default.
    > There is difference between them. The
    > one where "black ink only" is NOT specified
    > produced more detailed greyish image. But
    > then isn't it that in grayscale image, it is
    > supposed to be made up of pure black and
    > white. How come the printer produced
    > different outputs if it uses all colors to print
    > the grayscale versus using entirely black
    > ink??
    >

    Most printers without dedicated monochrome ink in various "strengths"
    use blends of coloured ink to produce lighter shades. It's critical
    that the right amount of each colour is applied, or the print may have a
    colour cast, and typically that colour cast will vary between dark and
    light shades. That said, with care quite good results can be obtained
    from some colour printers (but often the result is quite bad).
    Printing just with "full strength" black only, then the printer can't
    produce as much detail in lighter areas, as there are limits to minimum
    droplet size and placement.
    Printers with dedicated monochrome inks usually have three or more black
    inks, usually called "light black" and "light light black" etc. The
    higher end printers also usually have black ink which is as neutral as
    possible, made with a little blue added to offset the brownish-yellow of
    carbon black pigments. However, they still use a little coloured ink to
    eliminate colour casts. There are some aftermarket inks to suit some
    (usually higher end) printers, which are a full set (perhaps 8 shades)
    of black cartridges.
     
    Me, Apr 11, 2009
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Mark Franzels

    M-M Guest

    In article <grppts$67g$>, Me <>
    wrote:

    > Mark Franzels wrote:
    > > Hi,
    > >
    > > I noticed something weird.
    > > I converted a photo into grayscale in photoshop.
    > > I tried to print the grayscale photo using a printer
    > > with black ink enable only versus default.
    > > There is difference between them. The
    > > one where "black ink only" is NOT specified
    > > produced more detailed greyish image. But
    > > then isn't it that in grayscale image, it is
    > > supposed to be made up of pure black and
    > > white. How come the printer produced
    > > different outputs if it uses all colors to print
    > > the grayscale versus using entirely black
    > > ink??
    > >

    > Most printers without dedicated monochrome ink in various "strengths"
    > use blends of coloured ink to produce lighter shades. It's critical
    > that the right amount of each colour is applied, or the print may have a
    > colour cast, and typically that colour cast will vary between dark and
    > light shades. That said, with care quite good results can be obtained
    > from some colour printers (but often the result is quite bad).
    > Printing just with "full strength" black only, then the printer can't
    > produce as much detail in lighter areas, as there are limits to minimum
    > droplet size and placement.
    > Printers with dedicated monochrome inks usually have three or more black
    > inks, usually called "light black" and "light light black" etc. The
    > higher end printers also usually have black ink which is as neutral as
    > possible, made with a little blue added to offset the brownish-yellow of
    > carbon black pigments. However, they still use a little coloured ink to
    > eliminate colour casts. There are some aftermarket inks to suit some
    > (usually higher end) printers, which are a full set (perhaps 8 shades)
    > of black cartridges.



    This has to get the prize for the response of the week!
    Great answer, very informative and extremely well-written.

    --
    m-m
    http://www.mhmyers.com
     
    M-M, Apr 11, 2009
    #3
  4. On Apr 11, 6:03 pm, Me <> wrote:
    > Mark Franzels wrote:
    > > Hi,

    >
    > > I noticed something weird.
    > > I converted a photo into grayscale in photoshop.
    > > I tried to print the grayscale photo using a printer
    > > with black ink enable only versus default.
    > > There is difference between them. The
    > > one where "black ink only" is NOT specified
    > > produced more detailed greyish image. But
    > > then isn't it that in grayscale image, it is
    > > supposed to be made up of pure black and
    > > white. How come the printer produced
    > > different outputs if it uses all colors to print
    > > the grayscale versus using entirely black
    > > ink??

    >
    > Most printers without dedicated monochrome ink in various "strengths"
    > use blends of coloured ink to produce lighter shades.  It's critical
    > that the right amount of each colour is applied, or the print may have a
    > colour cast, and typically that colour cast will vary between dark and
    > light shades.  That said, with care quite good results can be obtained
    > from some colour printers (but often the result is quite bad).
    > Printing just with "full strength" black only, then the printer can't
    > produce as much detail in lighter areas, as there are limits to minimum
    > droplet size and placement.
    > Printers with dedicated monochrome inks usually have three or more black
    > inks, usually called "light black" and "light light black" etc.  The
    > higher end printers also usually have black ink which is as neutral as
    > possible, made with a little blue added to offset the brownish-yellow of


    How about laser printers with black only toner. Do you
    called it with black as neutral as possible? I just noticed
    that using the same file in grayscale. The laser printer
    prints it much better than an inkjet printer with setting
    of "use black ink only". Why is that? It seems for
    purely black output. The laser printer is more optimized
    than an inkjet set at black ink only, agree? But why.
    Thanks.

    Mark

    > carbon black pigments.  However, they still use a little coloured ink to
    > eliminate colour casts.  There are some aftermarket inks to suit some
    > (usually higher end) printers, which are a full set (perhaps 8 shades)
    > of black cartridges.- Hide quoted text -
    >
    > - Show quoted text -
     
    Mark Franzels, Apr 11, 2009
    #4
  5. Mark Franzels

    Me Guest

    Mark Franzels wrote:
    > On Apr 11, 6:03 pm, Me <> wrote:
    >> Mark Franzels wrote:
    >>> Hi,
    >>> I noticed something weird.
    >>> I converted a photo into grayscale in photoshop.
    >>> I tried to print the grayscale photo using a printer
    >>> with black ink enable only versus default.
    >>> There is difference between them. The
    >>> one where "black ink only" is NOT specified
    >>> produced more detailed greyish image. But
    >>> then isn't it that in grayscale image, it is
    >>> supposed to be made up of pure black and
    >>> white. How come the printer produced
    >>> different outputs if it uses all colors to print
    >>> the grayscale versus using entirely black
    >>> ink??

    >> Most printers without dedicated monochrome ink in various "strengths"
    >> use blends of coloured ink to produce lighter shades. It's critical
    >> that the right amount of each colour is applied, or the print may have a
    >> colour cast, and typically that colour cast will vary between dark and
    >> light shades. That said, with care quite good results can be obtained
    >> from some colour printers (but often the result is quite bad).
    >> Printing just with "full strength" black only, then the printer can't
    >> produce as much detail in lighter areas, as there are limits to minimum
    >> droplet size and placement.
    >> Printers with dedicated monochrome inks usually have three or more black
    >> inks, usually called "light black" and "light light black" etc. The
    >> higher end printers also usually have black ink which is as neutral as
    >> possible, made with a little blue added to offset the brownish-yellow of

    >
    > How about laser printers with black only toner. Do you
    > called it with black as neutral as possible? I just noticed
    > that using the same file in grayscale. The laser printer
    > prints it much better than an inkjet printer with setting
    > of "use black ink only". Why is that? It seems for
    > purely black output. The laser printer is more optimized
    > than an inkjet set at black ink only, agree? But why.
    > Thanks.
    >

    It probably varies between printer, but a laser optimised to use black
    toner might be able to place toner more accurately than the inkjet.
    If you've got a Canon inkjet, some models use dye inks for colour photo
    printing, and a pigment ink for black for text only printing (more
    waterproof and less prone to bleed than dye based ink on uncoated
    papers). At a guess, when switched to black only, it's using the
    pigment ink, and the nozzles/head used are probably not capable of
    producing small droplet sizes, or the printer "assumes" text, where high
    dpi isn't needed. The three main makers (Epson, Canon, and HP) use
    significantly different methods to vary droplet size.
     
    Me, Apr 12, 2009
    #5
  6. On Apr 12, 9:08 am, Me <> wrote:
    > Mark Franzels wrote:
    > > On Apr 11, 6:03 pm, Me <> wrote:
    > >> Mark Franzels wrote:
    > >>> Hi,
    > >>> I noticed something weird.
    > >>> I converted a photo into grayscale in photoshop.
    > >>> I tried to print the grayscale photo using a printer
    > >>> with black ink enable only versus default.
    > >>> There is difference between them. The
    > >>> one where "black ink only" is NOT specified
    > >>> produced more detailed greyish image. But
    > >>> then isn't it that in grayscale image, it is
    > >>> supposed to be made up of pure black and
    > >>> white. How come the printer produced
    > >>> different outputs if it uses all colors to print
    > >>> the grayscale versus using entirely black
    > >>> ink??
    > >> Most printers without dedicated monochrome ink in various "strengths"
    > >> use blends of coloured ink to produce lighter shades.  It's critical
    > >> that the right amount of each colour is applied, or the print may have a
    > >> colour cast, and typically that colour cast will vary between dark and
    > >> light shades.  That said, with care quite good results can be obtained
    > >> from some colour printers (but often the result is quite bad).
    > >> Printing just with "full strength" black only, then the printer can't
    > >> produce as much detail in lighter areas, as there are limits to minimum
    > >> droplet size and placement.
    > >> Printers with dedicated monochrome inks usually have three or more black
    > >> inks, usually called "light black" and "light light black" etc.  The
    > >> higher end printers also usually have black ink which is as neutral as
    > >> possible, made with a little blue added to offset the brownish-yellow of

    >
    > > How about laser printers with black only toner. Do you
    > > called it with black as neutral as possible? I just noticed
    > > that using the same file in grayscale. The laser printer
    > > prints it much better than an inkjet printer with setting
    > > of "use black ink only". Why is that? It seems for
    > > purely black output. The laser printer is more optimized
    > > than an inkjet set at black ink only, agree? But why.
    > > Thanks.

    >
    > It probably varies between printer, but a laser optimised to use black
    > toner might be able to place toner more accurately than the inkjet.
    > If you've got a Canon inkjet, some models use dye inks for colour photo
    > printing, and a pigment ink for black for text only printing (more
    > waterproof and less prone to bleed than dye based ink on uncoated
    > papers).  At a guess, when switched to black only, it's using the
    > pigment ink, and the nozzles/head used are probably not capable of
    > producing small droplet sizes, or the printer "assumes" text, where high
    > dpi isn't needed.  The three main makers (Epson, Canon, and HP) use
    > significantly different methods to vary droplet size.- Hide quoted text -
    >
    > - Show quoted text -


    It's an HP specifically HP Deskjet 910 with the most
    cheapest ink.. the black cartridge is model HP CB314
    that only costs $5 and it can print up to 500 pages.
    So I guess the nozzles are made gross? What can
    you say about other HP cartridges especially
    black, does it use pigments or dye? How can I
    know what it is? Why, when you use normal
    inkjets and set the ink to print in black cartridge
    only, is it supposed to produce grayscale the
    same shades as that of dedicated monochrome
    laser printers?
     
    Mark Franzels, Apr 12, 2009
    #6
  7. Mark Franzels

    Pat Guest

    On Apr 12, 6:22 am, Mark Franzels <> wrote:
    > On Apr 12, 9:08 am, Me <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    > > Mark Franzels wrote:
    > > > On Apr 11, 6:03 pm, Me <> wrote:
    > > >> Mark Franzels wrote:
    > > >>> Hi,
    > > >>> I noticed something weird.
    > > >>> I converted a photo into grayscale in photoshop.
    > > >>> I tried to print the grayscale photo using a printer
    > > >>> with black ink enable only versus default.
    > > >>> There is difference between them. The
    > > >>> one where "black ink only" is NOT specified
    > > >>> produced more detailed greyish image. But
    > > >>> then isn't it that in grayscale image, it is
    > > >>> supposed to be made up of pure black and
    > > >>> white. How come the printer produced
    > > >>> different outputs if it uses all colors to print
    > > >>> the grayscale versus using entirely black
    > > >>> ink??
    > > >> Most printers without dedicated monochrome ink in various "strengths"
    > > >> use blends of coloured ink to produce lighter shades.  It's critical
    > > >> that the right amount of each colour is applied, or the print may have a
    > > >> colour cast, and typically that colour cast will vary between dark and
    > > >> light shades.  That said, with care quite good results can be obtained
    > > >> from some colour printers (but often the result is quite bad).
    > > >> Printing just with "full strength" black only, then the printer can't
    > > >> produce as much detail in lighter areas, as there are limits to minimum
    > > >> droplet size and placement.
    > > >> Printers with dedicated monochrome inks usually have three or more black
    > > >> inks, usually called "light black" and "light light black" etc.  The
    > > >> higher end printers also usually have black ink which is as neutral as
    > > >> possible, made with a little blue added to offset the brownish-yellow of

    >
    > > > How about laser printers with black only toner. Do you
    > > > called it with black as neutral as possible? I just noticed
    > > > that using the same file in grayscale. The laser printer
    > > > prints it much better than an inkjet printer with setting
    > > > of "use black ink only". Why is that? It seems for
    > > > purely black output. The laser printer is more optimized
    > > > than an inkjet set at black ink only, agree? But why.
    > > > Thanks.

    >
    > > It probably varies between printer, but a laser optimised to use black
    > > toner might be able to place toner more accurately than the inkjet.
    > > If you've got a Canon inkjet, some models use dye inks for colour photo
    > > printing, and a pigment ink for black for text only printing (more
    > > waterproof and less prone to bleed than dye based ink on uncoated
    > > papers).  At a guess, when switched to black only, it's using the
    > > pigment ink, and the nozzles/head used are probably not capable of
    > > producing small droplet sizes, or the printer "assumes" text, where high
    > > dpi isn't needed.  The three main makers (Epson, Canon, and HP) use
    > > significantly different methods to vary droplet size.- Hide quoted text -

    >
    > > - Show quoted text -

    >
    > It's an HP specifically HP Deskjet 910 with the most
    > cheapest ink.. the black cartridge is model HP CB314
    > that only costs $5 and it can print up to 500 pages.
    > So I guess the nozzles are made gross? What can
    > you say about other HP cartridges especially
    > black, does it use pigments or dye? How can I
    > know what it is? Why, when you use normal
    > inkjets and set the ink to print in black cartridge
    > only, is it supposed to produce grayscale the
    > same shades as that of dedicated monochrome
    > laser printers?


    Actually, I think you have so many variable going on that you couldn't
    find one good reason if you tried. For example, a black from an
    inkjet on regular paper is nowhere near as black as a laser. Part of
    it is that the laser puts down 100% color and the inkjet needs some
    sort of carrier. Also, ink absorbs and laser does not. Then there's
    the different reflective nature of the systems. It also probably has
    something to do with putting down more/better material to absorb light
    if you use colors as well as black.

    On my color laser, it gives you the option to go one of thee ways: CMY
    +K; K; or K overprint.
     
    Pat, Apr 12, 2009
    #7
  8. On Apr 12, 9:39 pm, Pat <> wrote:
    > On Apr 12, 6:22 am, Mark Franzels <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > On Apr 12, 9:08 am, Me <> wrote:

    >
    > > > Mark Franzels wrote:
    > > > > On Apr 11, 6:03 pm, Me <> wrote:
    > > > >> Mark Franzels wrote:
    > > > >>> Hi,
    > > > >>> I noticed something weird.
    > > > >>> I converted a photo into grayscale in photoshop.
    > > > >>> I tried to print the grayscale photo using a printer
    > > > >>> with black ink enable only versus default.
    > > > >>> There is difference between them. The
    > > > >>> one where "black ink only" is NOT specified
    > > > >>> produced more detailed greyish image. But
    > > > >>> then isn't it that in grayscale image, it is
    > > > >>> supposed to be made up of pure black and
    > > > >>> white. How come the printer produced
    > > > >>> different outputs if it uses all colors to print
    > > > >>> the grayscale versus using entirely black
    > > > >>> ink??
    > > > >> Most printers without dedicated monochrome ink in various "strengths"
    > > > >> use blends of coloured ink to produce lighter shades.  It's critical
    > > > >> that the right amount of each colour is applied, or the print may have a
    > > > >> colour cast, and typically that colour cast will vary between dark and
    > > > >> light shades.  That said, with care quite good results can be obtained
    > > > >> from some colour printers (but often the result is quite bad).
    > > > >> Printing just with "full strength" black only, then the printer can't
    > > > >> produce as much detail in lighter areas, as there are limits to minimum
    > > > >> droplet size and placement.
    > > > >> Printers with dedicated monochrome inks usually have three or more black
    > > > >> inks, usually called "light black" and "light light black" etc.  The
    > > > >> higher end printers also usually have black ink which is as neutral as
    > > > >> possible, made with a little blue added to offset the brownish-yellow of

    >
    > > > > How about laser printers with black only toner. Do you
    > > > > called it with black as neutral as possible? I just noticed
    > > > > that using the same file in grayscale. The laser printer
    > > > > prints it much better than an inkjet printer with setting
    > > > > of "use black ink only". Why is that? It seems for
    > > > > purely black output. The laser printer is more optimized
    > > > > than an inkjet set at black ink only, agree? But why.
    > > > > Thanks.

    >
    > > > It probably varies between printer, but a laser optimised to use black
    > > > toner might be able to place toner more accurately than the inkjet.
    > > > If you've got a Canon inkjet, some models use dye inks for colour photo
    > > > printing, and a pigment ink for black for text only printing (more
    > > > waterproof and less prone to bleed than dye based ink on uncoated
    > > > papers).  At a guess, when switched to black only, it's using the
    > > > pigment ink, and the nozzles/head used are probably not capable of
    > > > producing small droplet sizes, or the printer "assumes" text, where high
    > > > dpi isn't needed.  The three main makers (Epson, Canon, and HP) use
    > > > significantly different methods to vary droplet size.- Hide quoted text -

    >
    > > > - Show quoted text -

    >
    > > It's an HP specifically HP Deskjet 910 with the most
    > > cheapest ink.. the black cartridge is model HP CB314
    > > that only costs $5 and it can print up to 500 pages.
    > > So I guess the nozzles are made gross? What can
    > > you say about other HP cartridges especially
    > > black, does it use pigments or dye? How can I
    > > know what it is? Why, when you use normal
    > > inkjets and set the ink to print in black cartridge
    > > only, is it supposed to produce grayscale the
    > > same shades as that of dedicated monochrome
    > > laser printers?

    >
    > Actually, I think you have so many variable going on that you couldn't
    > find one good reason if you tried.  For example, a black from an
    > inkjet on regular paper is nowhere near as black as a laser.  Part of
    > it is that the laser puts down 100% color and the inkjet needs some
    > sort of carrier. Also, ink absorbs and laser does not.  Then there's


    What carrier are you talking about and what has it got to do
    with inkjet printing?

    > the different reflective nature of the systems.  It also probably has
    > something to do with putting down more/better material to absorb light
    > if you use colors as well as black.


    What more/better material to absorb light? Do you mean
    the printed output or something inside the printer?

    I think it has to do with marketing stragegy too. If people can
    just use black to print grayscale, their color cartridge
    may not sell like pancakes.. instead they design the printers
    in such a way that most of the time you need color to
    print some black shade. When I printed in purely blank
    ink, all the subtle shadings are not printed, even pure
    text from a magazine in PDF is not printed black, but
    very faded black, so even if printing a normal black fonts.
    The manufacturers make sure the colors would be used
    so they can earn profit from it.

    All HP inks have heads on the the cartridge right? Mabye
    the nozzles in my HP blank ink cartridge are only low
    res, that's why it is very cheap at $5 and can
    supposedly print 500 pages... what it doesn't tell
    you is 500 pages of very faded text that can give
    you severe eyestrain just by reading it. I wonder
    what about those more expensive HP black in
    cartridge.. do they print the subtle shadings well.
    (note: If anyone has experience in printing HP
    black ink only and comparing the output to
    the laser, let me know. Thanks.)

    Mark

    >
    > On my color laser, it gives you the option to go one of thee ways: CMY
    > +K; K; or K overprint.- Hide quoted text -
    >
    > - Show quoted text -
     
    Mark Franzels, Apr 12, 2009
    #8
  9. Mark Franzels

    Me Guest

    Mark Franzels wrote:
    > On Apr 12, 9:08 am, Me <> wrote:
    >> Mark Franzels wrote:
    >>> On Apr 11, 6:03 pm, Me <> wrote:
    >>>> Mark Franzels wrote:
    >>>>> Hi,
    >>>>> I noticed something weird.
    >>>>> I converted a photo into grayscale in photoshop.
    >>>>> I tried to print the grayscale photo using a printer
    >>>>> with black ink enable only versus default.
    >>>>> There is difference between them. The
    >>>>> one where "black ink only" is NOT specified
    >>>>> produced more detailed greyish image. But
    >>>>> then isn't it that in grayscale image, it is
    >>>>> supposed to be made up of pure black and
    >>>>> white. How come the printer produced
    >>>>> different outputs if it uses all colors to print
    >>>>> the grayscale versus using entirely black
    >>>>> ink??
    >>>> Most printers without dedicated monochrome ink in various "strengths"
    >>>> use blends of coloured ink to produce lighter shades. It's critical
    >>>> that the right amount of each colour is applied, or the print may have a
    >>>> colour cast, and typically that colour cast will vary between dark and
    >>>> light shades. That said, with care quite good results can be obtained
    >>>> from some colour printers (but often the result is quite bad).
    >>>> Printing just with "full strength" black only, then the printer can't
    >>>> produce as much detail in lighter areas, as there are limits to minimum
    >>>> droplet size and placement.
    >>>> Printers with dedicated monochrome inks usually have three or more black
    >>>> inks, usually called "light black" and "light light black" etc. The
    >>>> higher end printers also usually have black ink which is as neutral as
    >>>> possible, made with a little blue added to offset the brownish-yellow of
    >>> How about laser printers with black only toner. Do you
    >>> called it with black as neutral as possible? I just noticed
    >>> that using the same file in grayscale. The laser printer
    >>> prints it much better than an inkjet printer with setting
    >>> of "use black ink only". Why is that? It seems for
    >>> purely black output. The laser printer is more optimized
    >>> than an inkjet set at black ink only, agree? But why.
    >>> Thanks.

    >> It probably varies between printer, but a laser optimised to use black
    >> toner might be able to place toner more accurately than the inkjet.
    >> If you've got a Canon inkjet, some models use dye inks for colour photo
    >> printing, and a pigment ink for black for text only printing (more
    >> waterproof and less prone to bleed than dye based ink on uncoated
    >> papers). At a guess, when switched to black only, it's using the
    >> pigment ink, and the nozzles/head used are probably not capable of
    >> producing small droplet sizes, or the printer "assumes" text, where high
    >> dpi isn't needed. The three main makers (Epson, Canon, and HP) use
    >> significantly different methods to vary droplet size.- Hide quoted text -
    >>
    >> - Show quoted text -

    >
    > It's an HP specifically HP Deskjet 910 with the most
    > cheapest ink.. the black cartridge is model HP CB314
    > that only costs $5 and it can print up to 500 pages.
    > So I guess the nozzles are made gross? What can
    > you say about other HP cartridges especially
    > black, does it use pigments or dye?

    I think those cartridges are all dye based ink. That is a printer from
    the mid-late 1990s ? HP used to make some reliable gear.
    IIRC I had a Deskjet 910 printer years ago, and when printing in
    greyscale, it used a very coarse raster pattern for half tones. I think
    that more modern inkjets will be quite different.
    For photo printing (colour), those old printers have truly terrible
    print fading problems, as well as zero water resistance.


    > How can I
    > know what it is? Why, when you use normal
    > inkjets and set the ink to print in black cartridge
    > only, is it supposed to produce grayscale the
    > same shades as that of dedicated monochrome
    > laser printers?
    >
     
    Me, Apr 12, 2009
    #9
  10. Mark Franzels

    Pat Guest

    On Apr 12, 10:24 am, Mark Franzels <> wrote:
    > On Apr 12, 9:39 pm, Pat <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    > > On Apr 12, 6:22 am, Mark Franzels <> wrote:

    >
    > > > On Apr 12, 9:08 am, Me <> wrote:

    >
    > > > > Mark Franzels wrote:
    > > > > > On Apr 11, 6:03 pm, Me <> wrote:
    > > > > >> Mark Franzels wrote:
    > > > > >>> Hi,
    > > > > >>> I noticed something weird.
    > > > > >>> I converted a photo into grayscale in photoshop.
    > > > > >>> I tried to print the grayscale photo using a printer
    > > > > >>> with black ink enable only versus default.
    > > > > >>> There is difference between them. The
    > > > > >>> one where "black ink only" is NOT specified
    > > > > >>> produced more detailed greyish image. But
    > > > > >>> then isn't it that in grayscale image, it is
    > > > > >>> supposed to be made up of pure black and
    > > > > >>> white. How come the printer produced
    > > > > >>> different outputs if it uses all colors to print
    > > > > >>> the grayscale versus using entirely black
    > > > > >>> ink??
    > > > > >> Most printers without dedicated monochrome ink in various "strengths"
    > > > > >> use blends of coloured ink to produce lighter shades.  It's critical
    > > > > >> that the right amount of each colour is applied, or the print may have a
    > > > > >> colour cast, and typically that colour cast will vary between dark and
    > > > > >> light shades.  That said, with care quite good results can be obtained
    > > > > >> from some colour printers (but often the result is quite bad).
    > > > > >> Printing just with "full strength" black only, then the printer can't
    > > > > >> produce as much detail in lighter areas, as there are limits to minimum
    > > > > >> droplet size and placement.
    > > > > >> Printers with dedicated monochrome inks usually have three or more black
    > > > > >> inks, usually called "light black" and "light light black" etc.  The
    > > > > >> higher end printers also usually have black ink which is as neutral as
    > > > > >> possible, made with a little blue added to offset the brownish-yellow of

    >
    > > > > > How about laser printers with black only toner. Do you
    > > > > > called it with black as neutral as possible? I just noticed
    > > > > > that using the same file in grayscale. The laser printer
    > > > > > prints it much better than an inkjet printer with setting
    > > > > > of "use black ink only". Why is that? It seems for
    > > > > > purely black output. The laser printer is more optimized
    > > > > > than an inkjet set at black ink only, agree? But why.
    > > > > > Thanks.

    >
    > > > > It probably varies between printer, but a laser optimised to use black
    > > > > toner might be able to place toner more accurately than the inkjet.
    > > > > If you've got a Canon inkjet, some models use dye inks for colour photo
    > > > > printing, and a pigment ink for black for text only printing (more
    > > > > waterproof and less prone to bleed than dye based ink on uncoated
    > > > > papers).  At a guess, when switched to black only, it's using the
    > > > > pigment ink, and the nozzles/head used are probably not capable of
    > > > > producing small droplet sizes, or the printer "assumes" text, where high
    > > > > dpi isn't needed.  The three main makers (Epson, Canon, and HP) use
    > > > > significantly different methods to vary droplet size.- Hide quoted text -

    >
    > > > > - Show quoted text -

    >
    > > > It's an HP specifically HP Deskjet 910 with the most
    > > > cheapest ink.. the black cartridge is model HP CB314
    > > > that only costs $5 and it can print up to 500 pages.
    > > > So I guess the nozzles are made gross? What can
    > > > you say about other HP cartridges especially
    > > > black, does it use pigments or dye? How can I
    > > > know what it is? Why, when you use normal
    > > > inkjets and set the ink to print in black cartridge
    > > > only, is it supposed to produce grayscale the
    > > > same shades as that of dedicated monochrome
    > > > laser printers?

    >
    > > Actually, I think you have so many variable going on that you couldn't
    > > find one good reason if you tried.  For example, a black from an
    > > inkjet on regular paper is nowhere near as black as a laser.  Part of
    > > it is that the laser puts down 100% color and the inkjet needs some
    > > sort of carrier. Also, ink absorbs and laser does not.  Then there's

    >
    > What carrier are you talking about and what has it got to do
    > with inkjet printing?


    An inkjet uses ink. The pigment needs a carrier -- usually water --
    to get it onto the paper. That then either evaporates off or absorbs
    in (or both). It goes into the paper whereas a laser is bonded to the
    surface and doesn't absorb.

    >
    > > the different reflective nature of the systems.  It also probably has
    > > something to do with putting down more/better material to absorb light
    > > if you use colors as well as black.

    >
    > What more/better material to absorb light? Do you mean
    > the printed output or something inside the printer?


    Vision is reflected light. White is all of the colors in more or less
    the same quantity. Black is not a color. Black is where all light is
    absorbed. A thin later of ink/paint/anything might let light reflect
    off of the surface below it. Then it won't look as black as denser
    layer of ink might. That's why when an inkjet starts to run out of
    color, for the first little bit the color looks lighter (and then
    disappears).

    If you use colored ink as well as black, you are putting down more
    material to absorb light.

    >
    > I think it has to do with marketing stragegy too. If people can
    > just use black to print grayscale, their color cartridge
    > may not sell like pancakes.. instead they design the printers
    > in such a way that most of the time you need color to
    > print some black shade. When I printed in purely blank
    > ink, all the subtle shadings are not printed, even pure
    > text from a magazine in PDF is not printed black, but
    > very faded black, so even if printing a normal black fonts.
    > The manufacturers make sure the colors would be used
    > so they can earn profit from it.
    >
    > All HP inks have heads on the the cartridge right? Mabye
    > the nozzles in my HP blank ink cartridge are only low
    > res, that's why it is very cheap at $5 and can
    > supposedly print 500 pages... what it doesn't tell
    > you is 500 pages of very faded text that can give
    > you severe eyestrain just by reading it. I wonder
    > what about those more expensive HP black in
    > cartridge.. do they print the subtle shadings well.
    > (note: If anyone has experience in printing HP
    > black ink only and comparing the output to
    > the laser, let me know. Thanks.)


    I don't think inkjets are a dark and if you use cheap paper, they are
    no wheres nears as sharp.

    I used to use a black-only inkjet -- the Deskjet 500. IIRC it did
    okay but you would be comparing it to dot-matrix at the time. Back
    then, a lot of photocopiers weren't all that hot, either.

    To test your printer hypothesis, just wait for a color cartridge to
    get low. The design something that is solid color red, blue, and
    yellow -- say a third of a sheet each. Just run it until you run out
    of ink on all colors. Then try printing some black text. That will
    show you what the black ink is doing.

    >
    > Mark
    >
    >
    >
    > > On my color laser, it gives you the option to go one of thee ways: CMY
    > > +K; K; or K overprint.- Hide quoted text -

    >
    > > - Show quoted text -
     
    Pat, Apr 12, 2009
    #10
  11. On Apr 13, 1:43 am, Me <> wrote:
    > Mark Franzels wrote:
    > > On Apr 12, 9:08 am, Me <> wrote:
    > >> Mark Franzels wrote:
    > >>> On Apr 11, 6:03 pm, Me <> wrote:
    > >>>> Mark Franzels wrote:
    > >>>>> Hi,
    > >>>>> I noticed something weird.
    > >>>>> I converted a photo into grayscale in photoshop.
    > >>>>> I tried to print the grayscale photo using a printer
    > >>>>> with black ink enable only versus default.
    > >>>>> There is difference between them. The
    > >>>>> one where "black ink only" is NOT specified
    > >>>>> produced more detailed greyish image. But
    > >>>>> then isn't it that in grayscale image, it is
    > >>>>> supposed to be made up of pure black and
    > >>>>> white. How come the printer produced
    > >>>>> different outputs if it uses all colors to print
    > >>>>> the grayscale versus using entirely black
    > >>>>> ink??
    > >>>> Most printers without dedicated monochrome ink in various "strengths"
    > >>>> use blends of coloured ink to produce lighter shades.  It's critical
    > >>>> that the right amount of each colour is applied, or the print may have a
    > >>>> colour cast, and typically that colour cast will vary between dark and
    > >>>> light shades.  That said, with care quite good results can be obtained
    > >>>> from some colour printers (but often the result is quite bad).
    > >>>> Printing just with "full strength" black only, then the printer can't
    > >>>> produce as much detail in lighter areas, as there are limits to minimum
    > >>>> droplet size and placement.
    > >>>> Printers with dedicated monochrome inks usually have three or more black
    > >>>> inks, usually called "light black" and "light light black" etc.  The
    > >>>> higher end printers also usually have black ink which is as neutral as
    > >>>> possible, made with a little blue added to offset the brownish-yellow of
    > >>> How about laser printers with black only toner. Do you
    > >>> called it with black as neutral as possible? I just noticed
    > >>> that using the same file in grayscale. The laser printer
    > >>> prints it much better than an inkjet printer with setting
    > >>> of "use black ink only". Why is that? It seems for
    > >>> purely black output. The laser printer is more optimized
    > >>> than an inkjet set at black ink only, agree? But why.
    > >>> Thanks.
    > >> It probably varies between printer, but a laser optimised to use black
    > >> toner might be able to place toner more accurately than the inkjet.
    > >> If you've got a Canon inkjet, some models use dye inks for colour photo
    > >> printing, and a pigment ink for black for text only printing (more
    > >> waterproof and less prone to bleed than dye based ink on uncoated
    > >> papers).  At a guess, when switched to black only, it's using the
    > >> pigment ink, and the nozzles/head used are probably not capable of
    > >> producing small droplet sizes, or the printer "assumes" text, where high
    > >> dpi isn't needed.  The three main makers (Epson, Canon, and HP) use
    > >> significantly different methods to vary droplet size.- Hide quoted text -

    >
    > >> - Show quoted text -

    >
    > > It's an HP specifically HP Deskjet 910 with the most
    > > cheapest ink.. the black cartridge is model HP CB314
    > > that only costs $5 and it can print up to 500 pages.
    > > So I guess the nozzles are made gross? What can
    > > you say about other HP cartridges especially
    > > black, does it use pigments or dye?

    >
    > I think those cartridges are all dye based ink. That is a printer from
    > the mid-late 1990s ? HP used to make some reliable gear.
    > IIRC I had a Deskjet 910 printer years ago, and when printing in


    I also have the HP 910 printer but these are not available
    in the states... where do you live.. is it the same one as this
    (pls. look at the picture)?

    http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/document?cc=us&docname=c01042881&dlc=en&lc=en

    It is mentioned that "Product Availability 910 CB722A
    Philippines, India, South Africa, Vietnam, Thailand,
    Korea, Turkey, Chile"


    > greyscale, it used a very coarse raster pattern for half tones. I think
    > that more modern inkjets will be quite different.


    When you said it used coarse raster pattern for half tones
    when printing in greyscale.. do you mean black ink only
    or all colors enabled? There is a setting in the HP tray
    where you can use black ink only.

    > For photo printing (colour), those old printers have truly terrible
    > print fading problems, as well as zero water resistance.


    Have you tried other HP models where they can print
    grayscale in black ink that uses all shades? I'll change
    my printer to these if there is one. Thanks.

    Mark

    >
    >
    >
    > > How can I
    > > know what it is? Why, when you use normal
    > > inkjets and set the ink to print in black cartridge
    > > only, is it supposed to produce grayscale the
    > > same shades as that of dedicated monochrome
    > > laser printers?- Hide quoted text -

    >
    > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
    >
    > - Show quoted text -
     
    Mark Franzels, Apr 13, 2009
    #11
    1. Advertising

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

It takes just 2 minutes to sign up (and it's free!). Just click the sign up button to choose a username and then you can ask your own questions on the forum.
Similar Threads
  1. Conrad Weiler

    Scanning b/w with color or grayscale?

    Conrad Weiler, Jun 11, 2004, in forum: Digital Photography
    Replies:
    1
    Views:
    1,123
    Wally
    Jun 12, 2004
  2. Jimmy Clay
    Replies:
    0
    Views:
    846
    Jimmy Clay
    Dec 22, 2007
  3. Mark Franzels

    Color Photo to Grayscale Converter

    Mark Franzels, Apr 11, 2009, in forum: Digital Photography
    Replies:
    9
    Views:
    1,082
  4. pystol
    Replies:
    3
    Views:
    2,373
    Richard
    Aug 5, 2009
  5. Diabolic Preacher
    Replies:
    1
    Views:
    1,015
    RickMerrill
    Feb 15, 2010
Loading...

Share This Page