poll - did you miss the voting about dividing r.p.d?

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Roland Karlsson, Oct 22, 2004.

  1. Hi,

    There have been a voting about dividingt the r.p.d. - a real one.
    It is now ready. And we will have 4 brand new groups in 4 days from now.

    Did you - just as me - miss that this was going on?

    Did you know that two of the groups are called zlr and point+shoot?

    Do you know what a zlr is?

    Do you really know what a point+shoot is?

    Do you know what the other two groups are called?

    In what group are you planning to post printing and editing things?

    And where are you going to discuss different technology stuff, e.g.
    about sensors and anti shake and flash memory?

    Are there any range-finder flash memory out there?

    OK - you guessed it. They have just blewn it and made a
    seriously bad choice IMHO. And I missed it. Did you?


    /Roland
    Roland Karlsson, Oct 22, 2004
    #1
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  2. Roland Karlsson

    Alfred Molon Guest

    In article <Xns958AE46F8788Bklotjohan@130.133.1.4>, Roland Karlsson
    says...
    > Hi,
    >
    > There have been a voting about dividingt the r.p.d. - a real one.
    > It is now ready. And we will have 4 brand new groups in 4 days from now.
    >
    > Did you - just as me - miss that this was going on?
    >
    > Did you know that two of the groups are called zlr and point+shoot?
    >
    > Do you know what a zlr is?
    >
    > Do you really know what a point+shoot is?
    >
    > Do you know what the other two groups are called?
    >
    > In what group are you planning to post printing and editing things?
    >
    > And where are you going to discuss different technology stuff, e.g.
    > about sensors and anti shake and flash memory?
    >
    > Are there any range-finder flash memory out there?
    >
    > OK - you guessed it. They have just blewn it and made a
    > seriously bad choice IMHO. And I missed it. Did you?


    As far as I know rpd will continue to exist - it's just that they will
    add four new groups, which you are free to ignore. And no, I do not know
    what a zlr is.
    --

    Alfred Molon
    ------------------------------
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Olympus_405080/
    Olympus 5060 resource - http://myolympus.org/5060/
    Olympus 8080 resource - http://myolympus.org/8080/
    Alfred Molon, Oct 22, 2004
    #2
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  3. Roland Karlsson

    Robert Barr Guest

    Roland Karlsson wrote:

    >
    > Do you know what a zlr is?


    Zirconium Lens Reflex?

    Zero Lens Reflex?

    ZLR vs. SLR: Robbing
    Peter To Buy Paul?



    Woodbury, NY—Everybody loves the profits that high-end customers can
    bring in, and these days the fat-wallet crowd is buying tons of high-end
    digital ZLRs—zoom lens reflex digicams equipped with non-interchangeable
    zoom lenses.

    So naturally, retailers are focusing on the best way to make the ZLR
    sale. The catch is, won’t selling more digital ZLRs just cannibalize
    your sales of digital SLRs?

    And if that happens, should you care? As marketing expert Adrienne Zoble
    told a PMA session in Las Vegas, "If you believe in ‘all or nothing,’
    nothing will always win. On the other hand, if you think ‘something is
    better than nothing,’ you’ll be amazed at what you can accomplish."

    On the ZLR side of the equation, we’re talking about digicams like the
    Canon Powershot Pro1, Fujifilm FinePix S20 Pro, Konica Minolta Dimage
    A2, Nikon Coolpix 8700, Olympus C-8080 Wide Zoom and Sony Cyber-shot
    DSC-F828; all are models that sell for around a thousand dollars.

    On the digital SLR side, at about the same price point, are the fairly
    recent Canon Digital Rebel and Nikon D70.

    (You can quibble about the definition of ZLR, but it’s a lot easier to
    say than either zoom lens reflex or prosumer digicam. Way back when, the
    Olympus 35mm zoom lens models like the iS-20 DLX were the first cameras
    I ever heard described as ZLRs. More recently, Olympus has pointed out
    that the prosumer most likely has never worked as a commercial
    photographer full time but has a passion for the medium—"a serious
    hobbyist or high-end amateur who may come from a 35mm SLR photo
    background or with intensive computer background, in addition to the
    love of photography or digital imaging." These are the customers who
    can’t wait to get their hands on one of today’s ZLRs.)

    The sales dilemma is simple enough to express, just not simple to deal
    with: Should you sell your customers a ZLR when you might be able to
    sell them a digital SLR instead? For you, a digital SLR comes with the
    advantage of possible accessory sales—lenses and flash units, for
    starters; but many ZLRs offer accessory adapter lenses.

    On the SLR side, many of your high-end customers own 35mm SLRs and a
    bunch of lenses, and now that both Canon and Nikon have digital SLR
    bodies at around a thousand dollars, lens owners are thinking of adding
    a digital body so they can use all that glass. Chuck Westfall, director
    of technical information for Camera Products at Canon USA, said, "Canon
    expects the prosumer category of digital cameras and their customers to
    expand dramatically in 2004 and beyond, with many of the remaining
    holdouts from the analog world finally deciding to make the move to
    digital."

    So why should these folks pay for the zoom lens on a ZLR when they
    already have a bagful of lenses? Well, "bagful" may be the key, as in
    weight, and "save your back—buy a ZLR" might be part of your sales
    pitch. The ZLRs have 5x to 8x zoom lenses that start at the equivalent
    of 28 or 35mm wide-angle coverage and zoom out to 140mm, 200mm, even
    280mm tele. It would take four or five fixed-focal-length lenses to
    match that range, or at least a couple of zooms. Compare the weight of
    that load with the mere 1.5 or 2 pounds that the ZLRs weigh, complete
    with batteries.

    Besides the weight, the simplicity of not having to change lenses is a
    big advantage for the many prosumers who take photographs related to
    their jobs (e.g., real estate agents who take pictures of houses for
    sale) but who aren’t photo experts and don’t want to be.

    Another noteworthy fact about ZLR lenses: You’ve noticed several
    manufacturers are using premium-brand lenses, a trend made to order for
    photo specialty retailers. Examples are the Sony DSC-F828, with its
    Zeiss zoom; Canon’s PowerShot Pro1, with a Canon L-series lens; and
    Nikon’s Coolpix 8700 with an ED-glass Nikkor lens. That extra lens
    quality, not to mention snob appeal, can help you sell the upscale
    models and retain your profit margin.

    ZLRs also offer special features that may be really important to some of
    your customers. For instance, the Konica Minolta Dimage A2 has an
    anti-shake feature, and the Sony Cyber-shot DSC-F828 has Sony’s
    NightFraming system to compose flash photos in low-light or no-light
    conditions, and Sony’s NightShot infrared system that enables the camera
    to capture pictures in total darkness at distances up to 15 feet by
    using infrared illumination.

    The last word on ZLRs may come from Jon Sienkiewicz, vice president of
    marketing for Konica Minolta USA’s camera division. Some prosumer camera
    purchasers buying their first digicam are trying to get maximum
    versatility, while others, who already own an early model digicam or a
    low-end starter camera, want to replace it and step up to a
    current-generation ZLR. Which leads Sienkiewicz to observe, "People are
    trying to buy their last camera fiZLR body, digital soul

    C
    Robert Barr, Oct 22, 2004
    #3
  4. Roland Karlsson

    Ken Tough Guest

    Roland Karlsson <> wrote:

    >Did you - just as me - miss that this was going on?


    Yes, I knew the vote was coming, but (probably to my
    detriment) don't read news.groups. I assumed the CFV
    would come in RPD. I was away for the weekend and it
    appears the vote happened.

    >OK - you guessed it. They have just blewn it and made a
    >seriously bad choice IMHO. And I missed it. Did you?


    Ah well, if it's so bad the groups will be taken care
    of by natural selection.

    Personally, I hoped for r.p.d.slr-systems and
    r.p.d.software and r.p.d.storage.

    --
    Ken Tough
    Ken Tough, Oct 22, 2004
    #4
  5. Roland Karlsson

    John Bean Guest

    On 22 Oct 2004 20:27:22 GMT, Roland Karlsson wrote:
    > There have been a voting about dividingt the r.p.d. - a real one.
    > It is now ready. And we will have 4 brand new groups in 4 days from now.
    >
    > Did you - just as me - miss that this was going on?


    No, I didn't.

    >
    > Did you know that two of the groups are called zlr and point+shoot?


    Yes.

    > Do you know what a zlr is?


    I voted against it.

    > Do you really know what a point+shoot is?


    Yes.

    > Do you know what the other two groups are called?


    Yes, and I voted against them.

    > In what group are you planning to post printing and editing things?


    Here.

    > And where are you going to discuss different technology stuff, e.g.
    > about sensors and anti shake and flash memory?


    Here.

    > Are there any range-finder flash memory out there?


    Sorry, you lost me on that one.

    > OK - you guessed it. They have just blewn it and made a
    > seriously bad choice IMHO. And I missed it. Did you?


    "They" is "us" Roland. There is no "they".

    --
    John Bean

    If you drink, don't drive. Don't even putt (Dean Martin)
    John Bean, Oct 22, 2004
    #5
  6. Roland Karlsson

    Bill Hilton Guest

    >From: Roland Karlsson

    >There have been a voting about dividingt the r.p.d. - a real one.
    >It is now ready. And we will have 4 brand new groups in 4 days from now.
    >
    >Did you - just as me - miss that this was going on?


    It was posted several times on this and the 35 mm NGs. Hard to see how you
    missed it.

    >OK - you guessed it. They have just blewn it and made a
    >seriously bad choice IMHO. And I missed it. Did you?


    No I didn't miss it ... I voted against it (one of the few, the proud :) but it
    looks like the vast majority favors it.

    So long as they keep this NG alive you can just ignore the new ones ... no big
    deal.
    Bill Hilton, Oct 22, 2004
    #6
  7. Roland Karlsson wrote:

    >
    >OK - you guessed it. They have just blewn it and made a
    >seriously bad choice IMHO. And I missed it. Did you?


    big deal, if you had read the newsgroup at all during the last 30 days you would
    have had two chances to vote and there was about 3 months of discussion before
    that.
    I voted against it and they voted to split it up.

    BUT, this is not an elist or an online forum. they cannot force structure or
    subject constraints here. again, big Whoop! I will keep on discussing anything
    and everthing in rpd with no change.

    just ignore the voting and go on. I expect that nearly everyone will eventually
    come back to the ACTIVE NG which those split offs are not going to be ....

    --
    chas
    The new Canon DSLR elist. no trolls, etc
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canon-dslr/join

    ....
    schuetzen - RKBA!, Oct 22, 2004
    #7
  8. Roland Karlsson

    Frank ess Guest

    Ken Tough wrote:
    > Roland Karlsson <> wrote:
    >
    >> Did you - just as me - miss that this was going on?

    >
    > Yes, I knew the vote was coming, but (probably to my
    > detriment) don't read news.groups. I assumed the CFV
    > would come in RPD. I was away for the weekend and it
    > appears the vote happened.
    >


    Me, too, and yes, it did; however, the advisement and procedure were
    posted at least twice with appropriate prefix in the subject line. I was
    fortunate enough to see them, and I voted.

    >> OK - you guessed it. They have just blewn it and made a
    >> seriously bad choice IMHO. And I missed it. Did you?

    >
    > Ah well, if it's so bad the groups will be taken care
    > of by natural selection.
    >
    > Personally, I hoped for r.p.d.slr-systems and
    > r.p.d.software and r.p.d.storage.


    My turn for a <whinge>: I liked the slr-system idea, but was in the
    minority of something like 10%. I hoped for r.p.d.arty-stuff and
    r.p.d.tech-babble. No such luck. </whinge>


    --
    Frank ess
    Frank ess, Oct 22, 2004
    #8
  9. Roland Karlsson

    Ryadia Guest

    Roland Karlsson wrote:
    >
    > Are there any range-finder flash memory out there?
    >
    > OK - you guessed it. They have just blewn it and made a
    > seriously bad choice IMHO. And I missed it. Did you?
    >
    >
    > /Roland


    The Zealots who decided to fork the group seem not to have had the
    foresight to do it properly. Somehow, after reading this group for some
    time, I've come to the conclusion the forking of the group is not in the
    interests of it's readers or posters.

    If you remover the "what's the best digicam" and "where is the best
    price" posts and their replies, a large part of the group traffic is not
    about DSLRs or ZSLRs but about the topical matters which affect all
    photographers.

    I have several MF cameras, a 20D and a digicam. All have their use. Am I
    to believe the forkers are serious in attempting to prevent me and those
    few million other photographers like me, from discussing photography if
    it does not conform to their narrow definition of what can and cannot be
    discussed? Bloody minded zealots!

    All I can say is "Good luck". Freedom is not about limitations. It's a
    good thing then, that this group will still exist because starting new
    groups based on prohibition is stepping back to a time I really don't
    want to visit.

    Ryadia
    Ryadia, Oct 22, 2004
    #9
  10. Roland Karlsson

    Jim Townsend Guest

    Roland Karlsson wrote:

    > Hi,
    >
    > There have been a voting about dividingt the r.p.d. - a real one.
    > It is now ready. And we will have 4 brand new groups in 4 days from now.
    >


    Rec.photo.digital will remain.. I might browse the DSLR group..
    but I don't really care about the other groups so to me, it's a non-issue.

    It will certainly take longer than 4 days to get the groups up and running
    worldwide.. All of the thousands of independentely owned and administered news
    providers will have to get on track and add the groups individually.

    You can't just make up a control message and create groups on a worldwide scale
    like you could years ago. Scant few news providers honor these anymore. In many
    cases it's up to the individual subscriber to ask that groups be added or removed
    and it will only occur if their news provider gives it the OK.
    Jim Townsend, Oct 22, 2004
    #10
  11. Roland Karlsson

    Jeremy Nixon Guest

    Roland Karlsson <> wrote:

    > Did you - just as me - miss that this was going on?


    No. All the announcements and RFDs were posted here. A good portion of
    the discussion was posted here. It's difficult to understand how you could
    completely miss it, unless you haven't read this group in the past several
    months.

    On the other hand, the simple fact that you managed to miss this process,
    which was posted in this group and which went on for several months, is an
    extremely good argument in favor of creating the new groups. It points
    out very well indeed how difficult it has become to follow this group.
    There are quite a few people (some of whom I even know) who want to read
    this group but have given up on it because it is impossible to keep up
    with.

    You're a regular here, whose name I recognize, and yet you clearly are
    not able to keep up with this group. Topic splitting is a good thing,
    and is necessary in this case.

    > Did you know that two of the groups are called zlr and point+shoot?
    >
    > Do you know what a zlr is?
    >
    > Do you really know what a point+shoot is?


    There was a very long discussion on exactly this point. The only outcome
    was that pretty much everyone agreed that those names are not very good,
    but no one was able to put forth any better suggestions, simply because
    those names are what we have and no one has invented any others.

    > In what group are you planning to post printing and editing things?
    >
    > And where are you going to discuss different technology stuff, e.g.
    > about sensors and anti shake and flash memory?


    Those things seem like things that would be entirely appropriate for
    this very group.

    --
    Jeremy |
    Jeremy Nixon, Oct 22, 2004
    #11
  12. Roland Karlsson

    Guest

    Kibo informs me that schuetzen - RKBA! <> stated that:

    >Roland Karlsson wrote:
    >
    >>
    >>OK - you guessed it. They have just blewn it and made a
    >>seriously bad choice IMHO. And I missed it. Did you?

    >
    >big deal, if you had read the newsgroup at all during the last 30 days you would
    >have had two chances to vote and there was about 3 months of discussion before
    >that.
    >I voted against it and they voted to split it up.


    It was only pointed out about a hundred times in news.groups that RPD is
    not being 'split'. This group will still exist after the new groups are
    created, the charter won't be changing, & people can still keep on
    discussing the same stuff here that they always have.

    >BUT, this is not an elist or an online forum. they cannot force structure or
    >subject constraints here. again, big Whoop! I will keep on discussing anything
    >and everthing in rpd with no change.


    Sure, go ahead. Nobody's trying to stop you, (or anyone else who feels
    the same way), from doing exactly that.

    >just ignore the voting and go on. I expect that nearly everyone will eventually
    >come back to the ACTIVE NG which those split offs are not going to be ....


    Personally, I think that three of the new groups will die from lack of
    interest, but that the DSLR group will slowly pick up speed over the
    next 3-6 months.

    --
    W
    . | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
    \|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
    ---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------
    , Oct 22, 2004
    #12
  13. Alfred Molon <> wrote in
    news::

    > As far as I know rpd will continue to exist - it's just that they will
    > add four new groups, which you are free to ignore. And no, I do not know
    > what a zlr is.


    The cameras in your sig block are ZLRs.

    --
    Bill
    Woodchuck Bill, Oct 22, 2004
    #13
  14. Ken Tough <> wrote in
    news:D:

    > Yes, I knew the vote was coming, but (probably to my
    > detriment) don't read news.groups. I assumed the CFV
    > would come in RPD.


    The CFV was posted to RPD twice.

    --
    Bill
    Woodchuck Bill, Oct 22, 2004
    #14
  15. Roland Karlsson

    Alfred Molon Guest

    Alfred Molon, Oct 22, 2004
    #15
  16. Woodchuck Bill, Oct 22, 2004
    #16
  17. Woodchuck Bill <> wrote in
    news:Xns958ABE9257455bswr607h4@130.133.1.4:

    >> As far as I know rpd will continue to exist - it's just that they
    >> will add four new groups, which you are free to ignore. And no, I do
    >> not know what a zlr is.

    >
    > The cameras in your sig block are ZLRs.
    >


    No - actually they are not. ZLR means SLR without
    interchangable lenses. Good - you have just created
    a group that you don't understand yourself what it
    means.

    The 5060 and the 8080 and lots of other x0y0 Oly
    cameras are called point+shoot by some. But not
    by all - personally I don't know what to call them.
    Digital compact cameras maybe.



    /Roland
    Roland Karlsson, Oct 22, 2004
    #17
  18. dy (Bill Hilton) wrote in
    news::

    > It was posted several times on this and the 35 mm NGs. Hard to see
    > how you missed it.
    >


    I did.

    And now we have those more or less bogus groups.

    dslr-system is probably useful.

    rangefinder might become useful the day we see
    any rangefinder cameras. None now.

    Can you please tell me where my G2 belongs?



    /Roland
    Roland Karlsson, Oct 23, 2004
    #18
  19. Made some statisics over the last threads, tried
    to categorize them. DSLR seem to be the only new group
    that will receive any posts. OK - the P&S category is so
    vague (everyone has his own definition) so it might be
    more there.


    DSLR: 27
    P&S: 3
    zlr: 1
    rangefinder: 0

    Sum: 31

    Sites/Galleries: 7
    Webcameras: 1
    Batteries: 2
    Photos: 2
    Flash: 3
    Flash Cards: 10
    File formats: 5
    Other cameras: 10
    group things: 4
    Editing: 3
    Printing: 3
    selling/buying: 9
    General technical: 7
    Scanner: 3
    Mobile phone cameras: 1
    Computer: 3
    Software: 3
    Digital camera history: 1
    IR: 1
    spam: 4
    General news: 1

    Sum: 83
    Roland Karlsson, Oct 23, 2004
    #19
  20. Roland Karlsson <> wrote in
    news:Xns958BA14CBB11klotjohan@130.133.1.4:

    > No - actually they are not. ZLR means SLR without
    > interchangable lenses. Good - you have just created
    > a group that you don't understand yourself what it
    > means.


    Wrong. A ZLR can be an SLR with a fixed lens, such as the Oly E20, or a
    non-SLR that is "SLR-like".

    --
    Bill
    Woodchuck Bill, Oct 23, 2004
    #20
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