Pledge to the moderator...

Discussion in 'UK VOIP' started by ßødincµs²°°°, Nov 21, 2006.

  1. I'm starting to suspect that we are seeing some nasty marketing
    techniques infecting this newsgroup.
    Too many "pro-Skype" messages, with too many trolls talking wonders
    about the easiness of this, the affordability of that, etc... and
    arguing against the "serious" stuff.
    The suspect is that these people are bribed by Skype to advertise it
    with the "viral marketing" technique to infiltrate relevant newsgroups,
    and outweighing the balance to their (economic) advantage.
    Any newbie reading some recent messages could get the big picture wrong.
    Can we stick to the chapter, and talk about Voice over IP?
    Skype is an Instant Messaging system, like Yahoo (that was doing voice
    chat AGES before Skype) or MSN.
    It doesn't belong to VoIP, the VoIP protocols are SIP and H323.
    I don't want to sound "geek", but can we have a breath of fresh air?

    TA

    --
    ßødincµs²°°° - The Y2K Druid
    ----------------------------
    Law 42 on computing: Anything that could go wron@~ ¬
    $: Access Violation -- Core dumped
     
    ßødincµs²°°°, Nov 21, 2006
    #1
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  2. ßødincµs²°°°

    Martin² Guest

    I am not Skype user let alone fan,
    but it does carry Voice over Internet Protocol.
    Perhaps this should be uk.telecom.sip.voip group ?
    Regards,
    Martin
     
    Martin², Nov 21, 2006
    #2
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  3. ßødincµs²°°°

    Ivor Jones Guest

    "ßødincµs²°°°" <> wrote in message
    news:

    [snip]

    > Skype is an Instant Messaging system, like Yahoo (that
    > was doing voice chat AGES before Skype) or MSN.
    > It doesn't belong to VoIP, the VoIP protocols are SIP and
    > H323.


    Actually, much as I hate to admit it, technically it *is* voice over ip..!

    BTW there is also IAX.

    Ivor
     
    Ivor Jones, Nov 21, 2006
    #3
  4. ßødincµs²°°°

    Puffnstuff Guest

    On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 00:49:52 GMT, ßødincµs²°°° <>
    wrote:

    >I'm starting to suspect that we are seeing some nasty marketing
    >techniques infecting this newsgroup.
    >Too many "pro-Skype" messages, with too many trolls talking wonders
    >about the easiness of this, the affordability of that, etc... and
    >arguing against the "serious" stuff.
    >The suspect is that these people are bribed by Skype to advertise it
    >with the "viral marketing" technique to infiltrate relevant newsgroups,
    >and outweighing the balance to their (economic) advantage.
    >Any newbie reading some recent messages could get the big picture wrong.
    >Can we stick to the chapter, and talk about Voice over IP?
    >Skype is an Instant Messaging system, like Yahoo (that was doing voice
    >chat AGES before Skype) or MSN.
    >It doesn't belong to VoIP, the VoIP protocols are SIP and H323.
    >I don't want to sound "geek", but can we have a breath of fresh air?
    >
    >TA


    How sad you are.
     
    Puffnstuff, Nov 21, 2006
    #4
  5. ßødincµs²°°°

    RH Guest

    "ßødincµs²°°°" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > I'm starting to suspect that we are seeing some nasty marketing
    > techniques infecting this newsgroup.
    > Too many "pro-Skype" messages, with too many trolls talking wonders
    > about the easiness of this, the affordability of that, etc... and
    > arguing against the "serious" stuff.
    > The suspect is that these people are bribed by Skype to advertise it
    > with the "viral marketing" technique to infiltrate relevant newsgroups,
    > and outweighing the balance to their (economic) advantage.
    > Any newbie reading some recent messages could get the big picture wrong.
    > Can we stick to the chapter, and talk about Voice over IP?
    > Skype is an Instant Messaging system, like Yahoo (that was doing voice
    > chat AGES before Skype) or MSN.
    > It doesn't belong to VoIP, the VoIP protocols are SIP and H323.
    > I don't want to sound "geek", but can we have a breath of fresh air?


    Sorry I think your talking lot of bollards.

    I think if a billion dollar company wanted to do marketing it would not
    waste effort
    in doing it on on this forum where they are despised

    The truth is Skype is a VOIP system and in someways it is probably the best
    system around, there is no real alternative to skype for free internet
    calls, yes you can do it with SIP providers but networks are so small that
    the person you want to speak to is probably not using your network if they
    are using SIP (even more so for international calls), Skype is for everyone,
    even computerphobic people I know have managed to install and run skype,
    which would be impossible on most SIP systems with port forwarding and what
    have you

    Skype also suffers from same issues SIP VOIP does like the ability to
    traffic shape at the ISP level

    Don't get me wrong I am not a super Skype user, I like my SIP systems as
    well, running Trixbox with multiple SIP providers, but SKYPE does have its
    place in the world. and without skype the whole home user VOIP sector would
    be smaller. How many people on this list first looked at VOIP through SKYPE,
    I know I did.

    I know I should not feed the trolls, but have done in this case...
     
    RH, Nov 21, 2006
    #5
  6. On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 00:49:52 GMT, ßødincµs²°°° <>
    wrote:

    >I'm starting to suspect that we are seeing some nasty marketing
    >techniques infecting this newsgroup.
    >Too many "pro-Skype" messages, with too many trolls talking wonders
    >about the easiness of this, the affordability of that, etc... and
    >arguing against the "serious" stuff.
    >The suspect is that these people are bribed by Skype to advertise it
    >with the "viral marketing" technique to infiltrate relevant newsgroups,
    >and outweighing the balance to their (economic) advantage.
    >Any newbie reading some recent messages could get the big picture wrong.
    >Can we stick to the chapter, and talk about Voice over IP?
    >Skype is an Instant Messaging system, like Yahoo (that was doing voice
    >chat AGES before Skype) or MSN.
    >It doesn't belong to VoIP, the VoIP protocols are SIP and H323.
    >I don't want to sound "geek", but can we have a breath of fresh air?


    http://www.cynical-c.com/archives/bloggraphics/kutcherside.jpg
     
    Darren J Longhorn, Nov 21, 2006
    #6
  7. ßødincµs²°°°

    nemo2 Guest

    On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 10:22:04 -0000, "RH"
    <> wrote:

    >snipped
    >Don't get me wrong I am not a super Skype user, I like my SIP systems as
    >well, running Trixbox with multiple SIP providers, but SKYPE does have its
    >place in the world. and without skype the whole home user VOIP sector would
    >be smaller. How many people on this list first looked at VOIP through SKYPE,
    >I know I did.
    >
    >I know I should not feed the trolls, but have done in this case...
    >

    RH,

    I have to admit that I use skype, the main reason is that it will get
    through a university firewall that blocks voipcheap. As my daughter is
    no longer in halls I could go back to voipcheap, but skype is easy to
    support; well it just appears to work.

    I've just brought a router that supports voip, but at the moment I
    can't be bothered to set it up as I've other things that are more
    important; I will get around to it sometime - honestly.

    I'm not worried about the security aspect of skype as we don't talk
    about anything confidential on skype. However, in reality what are the
    chances of my conversation being interceted by somebody who could
    capture the concersation and then use the information; not high I
    suspect.

    I thought that your response was a good one, people use skype, because
    it's easy and a lot of other people use it and most of them won't know
    or care who owns skype.

    regards

    nemo2
     
    nemo2, Nov 21, 2006
    #7
  8. ßødincµs²°°°

    RH Guest

    > I'm not worried about the security aspect of skype as we don't talk
    > about anything confidential on skype. However, in reality what are the
    > chances of my conversation being interceted by somebody who could
    > capture the concersation and then use the information; not high I
    > suspect.


    I suspect if your an international terrorist and being monitored by CIA then
    skype and voip in general might not be safe, And if you are worried about
    VOIP
    being intercepted I have a feeling its probably easier to do at PC level of
    the user
    rather than inbetween users. Of course the most likely security issue of
    sorts, which I have
    have expereinced is having a low life steal your laptop with skype on it
     
    RH, Nov 21, 2006
    #8
  9. Recently, Ivor Jones popped out over the fence
    around uk.telecom.voip and said...
    |"ßødincµs²°°°" <> wrote in message
    |news:
    |
    |[snip]
    |
    |> Skype is an Instant Messaging system, like Yahoo (that
    |> was doing voice chat AGES before Skype) or MSN.
    |> It doesn't belong to VoIP, the VoIP protocols are SIP and
    |> H323.
    |
    |Actually, much as I hate to admit it, technically it *is* voice over ip..!
    |
    |BTW there is also IAX.
    |
    |Ivor
    |
    Forgot 'bout IAX, is it a ratified standard like SIP or H323?

    Anyway, ever heard about ISO OSI levels? Well, IM (Skype, Yahoo, etc...)
    voice traffic doesn't reach the IP ISO OSI level in the TCP stack. Being
    a proprietary protocol it stands - by definition - at application level,
    aka level 7.
    IP protocol is way down
    there
    |
    |
    |
    V

    --
    ßødincµs²°°° - The Y2K Druid
    ----------------------------
    Law 42 on computing: Anything that could go wron@~ ¬
    $: Access Violation -- Core dumped
     
    ßødincµs²°°°, Nov 22, 2006
    #9
  10. Recently, Martin² popped out over the fence
    around uk.telecom.voip and said...
    |I am not Skype user let alone fan,
    |but it does carry Voice over Internet Protocol.
    |Perhaps this should be uk.telecom.sip.voip group ?
    |Regards,
    |Martin
    |
    I'm on ratified standards, ISO OSI TCP protocol stack levels and so on.
    No, IM voice traffic is NOT VoIP (see my follow-up to Ivor post).
    I'm NOT against Skype in principle, but it's The Poor Man's choice.
    People smart enough to be lurking on a Usenet group should be already
    aware of the consequences of UPnP, proprietary protocols and monopolies.
    That's why I'm suspicious, how they are so "geek" to be here, and
    pretend to be John Doe?

    :-?

    --
    ßødincµs²°°° - The Y2K Druid
    ----------------------------
    Law 42 on computing: Anything that could go wron@~ ¬
    $: Access Violation -- Core dumped
     
    ßødincµs²°°°, Nov 22, 2006
    #10
  11. Recently, Puffnstuff popped out over the fence
    around uk.telecom.voip and said...

    |How sad you are.
    Gotcha! Typical reaction of the boy caught red-handed.

    Oh, and learn to snip properly... Ever heard of Netiquette?
    Ask to Wikipedia...

    --
    ßødincµs²°°° - The Y2K Druid
    ----------------------------
    Law 42 on computing: Anything that could go wron@~ ¬
    $: Access Violation -- Core dumped
     
    ßødincµs²°°°, Nov 22, 2006
    #11
  12. Recently, nemo2 popped out over the fence
    around uk.telecom.voip and said...
    |On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 10:22:04 -0000, "RH"
    |<> wrote:
    |
    |>snipped
    |>Don't get me wrong I am not a super Skype user, I like my SIP systems as
    |>well, running Trixbox with multiple SIP providers, but SKYPE does have its
    |>place in the world. and without skype the whole home user VOIP sector would
    |>be smaller. How many people on this list first looked at VOIP through SKYPE,
    |>I know I did.
    I did setup for one of my customers a voice intercom system running
    through Internet when Skype wasn't even conceived, with Yahoo Messenger.
    I've been there, etc...

    |>I know I should not feed the trolls, but have done in this case...
    |>
    |RH,
    |
    |I have to admit that I use skype, the main reason is that it will get
    |through a university firewall that blocks voipcheap. As my daughter is
    |no longer in halls I could go back to voipcheap, but skype is easy to
    |support; well it just appears to work.
    This statement says it all. Let me examine it...

    1) "...it will get through a university firewall that block
    voipcheap...". = Security hole + Uni network policy violation + higher
    bill to the Uni (that's paid with MY taxes, too).
    I don't like the sound of it, and the Uni network admins either.

    2) "...skype is esay to support..." = Like early MacOS, everything was
    concealed to the user "because it's better they don't know". Wrong
    business model. Open source OS based PCs are outnumbering Macs, and Open
    Source OSs are around by 1/10th than MacOS.

    3) "...well it just appears to work." = I'm washing my hands of the
    consequences to my PC security, my network neighborhood connection
    (shared) bandwidth clogged, and too much people relying on the same
    stuff (we've been into this already, Mr. Gates loves you all).
    Isn't this a bit irresponsible?

    |I'm not worried about the security aspect of skype as we don't talk
    |about anything confidential on skype. However, in reality what are the
    |chances of my conversation being interceted by somebody who could
    |capture the concersation and then use the information; not high I
    |suspect.
    The security hole is NOT in the fact that your conversation can be
    tapped into, but the fact that some hackers - using bespoke crafted
    packets pretending to be belonging to Skype traffic - can bypass your
    firewall.

    |I thought that your response was a good one, people use skype, because
    |it's easy and a lot of other people use it and most of them won't know
    |or care who owns skype.
    I don't care neither, I'm too old to care... But I've been there, seen
    that, and bought the T-shirt.
    Skype is an expensive toy (to run securely) and I'm - again - too old to
    play around.
    A hundred quid for an all-in-one ADSL VoIP Wireless router (AVM Fritz!
    Box Fon WLAN) and everything is served: 4 VoIP lines, 2 wired
    extensions, broadband with traffic shaping, wired / wireless internet
    throughout the house.
    I'm using business grade VoIP telephony since August 2005, and a month
    ago I ditched my landline. Never been happier.
    Do this with Skype.

    --
    ßødincµs²°°° - The Y2K Druid
    ----------------------------
    Law 42 on computing: Anything that could go wron@~ ¬
    $: Access Violation -- Core dumped
     
    ßødincµs²°°°, Nov 22, 2006
    #12
  13. ßødincµs²°°°

    Martin² Guest

    RH:
    >there is no real alternative to skype for free internet calls, yes you can
    >do it with SIP providers....


    Wrong ! You DON'T need any SIP providers, you can make free calls to any one
    with SIP software / equipment just by dialling their IP number.
    Regards,
    Martin
     
    Martin², Nov 22, 2006
    #13
  14. ßødincµs²°°°

    Puffnstuff Guest

    On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 01:12:39 GMT, ßødincµs²°°° <>
    wrote:

    >Do this with Skype.


    But there you are, people don't want to **** about.
    They just want to download something plug their headset in and it
    works, which is what Skype does, and does well.

    You are a nerd and love nerdy things, thank heavens most people arent

    Now STFU
     
    Puffnstuff, Nov 22, 2006
    #14
  15. ßødincµs²°°°

    RH Guest

    "Martin²" <> wrote in message
    news:4563b050$0$8712$...
    > RH:
    >>there is no real alternative to skype for free internet calls, yes you can
    >>do it with SIP providers....

    >
    > Wrong ! You DON'T need any SIP providers, you can make free calls to any
    > one with SIP software / equipment just by dialling their IP number.
    > Regards,
    > Martin


    Ok, I have family abroad, I want to chat to them using a VOIP system:

    SKYPE : Register and download and RUN (5 minutes or so)

    SIP : Download software bang your head against brickwall to configure
    software and router, lots of testing needed to make sure it works, then
    family needs to find out the IP address they are using (as not static IP)
    so eventually it all works really well,

    However you are then buggered if more than one person wants to run a system
    in the house or someone wants to install at their office at work on a mid
    sized lan

    (time could be days if trying to get a non technical person to get it
    working)
     
    RH, Nov 22, 2006
    #15
  16. ßødincµs²°°°

    RH Guest

    > |I have to admit that I use skype, the main reason is that it will get
    > |through a university firewall that blocks voipcheap. As my daughter is
    > |no longer in halls I could go back to voipcheap, but skype is easy to
    > |support; well it just appears to work.
    > This statement says it all. Let me examine it...
    >
    > 1) "...it will get through a university firewall that block
    > voipcheap...". = Security hole + Uni network policy violation + higher
    > bill to the Uni (that's paid with MY taxes, too).
    > I don't like the sound of it, and the Uni network admins either.


    Traditional SIP is problematic due to ports which need to be open and
    routing of these ports
    where as SKYPE is designed go through firewall systems.

    Not all universities are against skype being run by students

    > 2) "...skype is esay to support..." = Like early MacOS, everything was
    > concealed to the user "because it's better they don't know". Wrong
    > business model. Open source OS based PCs are outnumbering Macs, and Open
    > Source OSs are around by 1/10th than MacOS.


    I can bet that is probably true with china and a few other countries pushing
    linux, at government level
    but i can think of no one apart from overt techy people who prefer Linux
    over XP, the costs of linux
    can be way higher in terms of costs of time than XP. In regard to Macs this
    is a small market
    limited by hardware choice, IMHO OS X is the best user level OS based on
    unix/linux, like XP it tends to just work, no need to run compile scripts
    just to install a small peiece of software and no need to go round hunting
    web forums trying to find the answers

    > Skype is an expensive toy (to run securely) and I'm - again - too old to
    > play around.
    > A hundred quid for an all-in-one ADSL VoIP Wireless router (AVM Fritz!
    > Box Fon WLAN) and everything is served: 4 VoIP lines, 2 wired
    > extensions, broadband with traffic shaping, wired / wireless internet
    > throughout the house.
    > I'm using business grade VoIP telephony since August 2005, and a month
    > ago I ditched my landline. Never been happier.
    > Do this with Skype.


    Again you have failed to see the purpose and advantages of skype. I agree
    you have a nice setup which could not easily be done by skype, But I also
    use SKYPE, mainly so people can contact me free of charge but it is also
    great when travelling, If I am staying at a hotel with a wifi connection, I
    can just load up skype and talk, impossible usually with SIP, same if I go
    to friends house or internet cafe, I can usually just run software and go,
    no fiddling with someone elses router.

    People have different needs, A multi million pound F1 car has the most
    modern uptodate engine and fancy gearboxes and goes superfast and is
    technically better than a ford focus, But is useless for most drivers needs
    living an average city life. And if skype was such a bad useless product no
    one would be using it
     
    RH, Nov 22, 2006
    #16
  17. ßødincµs²°°°

    steveybar Guest

    "Puffnstuff" <> wrote in message
    news:...

    >snip<


    > Now STFU


    Puffnstuff - Do you really have to be so rude to people..........!! - there
    is no need at all.

    But I suppose if you haven't got the intelligence to constructively state
    your case.........
     
    steveybar, Nov 22, 2006
    #17
  18. ßødincµs²°°°

    Puffnstuff Guest

    On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 17:03:58 -0000, "steveybar"
    <> wrote:

    >
    >"Puffnstuff" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >
    >>snip<

    >
    >> Now STFU

    >
    >Puffnstuff - Do you really have to be so rude to people..........!! - there
    >is no need at all.


    Why not when people are so rude to others?
    Reeling off tons of techie rubbish in an attempt to shame Skype users.


    >
    >But I suppose if you haven't got the intelligence to constructively state
    >your case.........
    >

    Ahhhhhhhh so you dont like me being rude but its OK for you to do so?
    Right I see where your coming from now, dont do what I do, do as I say
     
    Puffnstuff, Nov 22, 2006
    #18
  19. ßødincµs²°°°

    Poor Man Guest

    On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 00:40:05 GMT, ßødincµs²°°° wrote:

    >No, IM voice traffic is NOT VoIP (see my follow-up to Ivor post).
    >I'm NOT against Skype in principle, but it's The Poor Man's choice.


    Don't knock us - there are a lot of us about.
     
    Poor Man, Nov 22, 2006
    #19
  20. ßødincµs²°°°

    Ivor Jones Guest

    "Puffnstuff" <> wrote in message
    news:
    > On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 01:12:39 GMT, ßødincµs²°°°
    > <> wrote:
    >
    > > Do this with Skype.

    >
    > But there you are, people don't want to **** about.
    > They just want to download something plug their headset
    > in and it works, which is what Skype does, and does well.
    >
    > You are a nerd and love nerdy things, thank heavens most
    > people arent
    >
    > Now STFU


    Ah, the old "I don't understand it so I'll rubbish it" argument. Coupled
    with the "I've lost the argument so I'll start swearing" defence.

    Neither do a jot for your credibility, old boy. I suggest *you* do the
    shutting up.


    Ivor
     
    Ivor Jones, Nov 22, 2006
    #20
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