Ping Nathan Mercer, Brett Roberts et al - Windows CALs

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Gurble, Jul 21, 2004.

  1. Gurble

    Gurble Guest

    Last time I was at a Microsoft presentation, Brett (I think it was
    him, anyway) invited everyone to email sales questions to an email
    address that I can't remember anymore. These were in relation to
    helping us sell Windows over Linux etc.

    So here goes. I thought I'd ask on a public forum, as I'm sure many
    others here are interested as well:

    I'd really be interested in Microsofts and/or your justification for
    charging for CALs.

    The way I see it, you pay for Windows Server, pay for Windows on the
    workstations, then you have to pay again to actually connect the two!
    Surely if you own the server and the workstations, you should be able
    to do as you please, including connecting YOUR workstations to YOUR
    server?

    The only reason I bring this up is that I was asked by one of our
    clients, who is looking at spending several thousand dollars on
    Windows Server and XP Pro licenses, and wasn't very impressed when I
    politely informed him that he'd have to spend another thousand or so
    on CALs - and especially the fact they are just a piece of paper
    saying you can connect to the server, rather than anything tangible.

    Your thoughts?
    Gurble, Jul 21, 2004
    #1
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  2. Gurble

    thing Guest

    Gurble wrote:
    > Last time I was at a Microsoft presentation, Brett (I think it was
    > him, anyway) invited everyone to email sales questions to an email
    > address that I can't remember anymore. These were in relation to
    > helping us sell Windows over Linux etc.
    >
    > So here goes. I thought I'd ask on a public forum, as I'm sure many
    > others here are interested as well:
    >
    > I'd really be interested in Microsofts and/or your justification for
    > charging for CALs.
    >
    > The way I see it, you pay for Windows Server, pay for Windows on the
    > workstations, then you have to pay again to actually connect the two!
    > Surely if you own the server and the workstations, you should be able
    > to do as you please, including connecting YOUR workstations to YOUR
    > server?
    >
    > The only reason I bring this up is that I was asked by one of our
    > clients, who is looking at spending several thousand dollars on
    > Windows Server and XP Pro licenses, and wasn't very impressed when I
    > politely informed him that he'd have to spend another thousand or so
    > on CALs - and especially the fact they are just a piece of paper
    > saying you can connect to the server, rather than anything tangible.
    >
    > Your thoughts?


    Best way for MS to get competative is carry on with the 50~66% discounts
    its offering certain customers if they look at moving to Linux...

    regards

    Thing
    thing, Jul 21, 2004
    #2
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  3. Gurble

    thing Guest

    Gurble wrote:
    > Last time I was at a Microsoft presentation, Brett (I think it was
    > him, anyway) invited everyone to email sales questions to an email
    > address that I can't remember anymore. These were in relation to
    > helping us sell Windows over Linux etc.
    >
    > So here goes. I thought I'd ask on a public forum, as I'm sure many
    > others here are interested as well:
    >
    > I'd really be interested in Microsofts and/or your justification for
    > charging for CALs.
    >
    > The way I see it, you pay for Windows Server, pay for Windows on the
    > workstations, then you have to pay again to actually connect the two!
    > Surely if you own the server and the workstations, you should be able
    > to do as you please, including connecting YOUR workstations to YOUR
    > server?
    >
    > The only reason I bring this up is that I was asked by one of our
    > clients, who is looking at spending several thousand dollars on
    > Windows Server and XP Pro licenses, and wasn't very impressed when I
    > politely informed him that he'd have to spend another thousand or so
    > on CALs - and especially the fact they are just a piece of paper
    > saying you can connect to the server, rather than anything tangible.
    >
    > Your thoughts?


    I also think MS cannot get a handle on how to deal with Linux/OSS, MS is
    now no longer the cheapest option, though step back a moment and
    consider MS was the cheapest option..so

    1) MS has got more expensive but consider that by defination other
    commercial OSes were an even bigger rip off, so is MS that bad compared
    to the other US corps?

    2) Attitude, customers want to buy what they want when they want to,
    imagine if Ford came along and said we wont service your vehicle anymore
    its 3 years old you have to upgrade? When you as a driver know the car
    is good for another 3 probably 6 years without major items failing?

    3) While MS has some nice flashy products fundementally thier products
    are still flaky and a security hazard. So stability and security REALLY
    have to become a priority. The likes of sophos and samantec have built a
    nice fat business on anti-virus ware, yet that is still reactive and not
    pro-active....

    regards

    Thing
    thing, Jul 21, 2004
    #3
  4. thing wrote:
    > 2) Attitude, customers want to buy what they want when they want to,
    > imagine if Ford came along and said we wont service your vehicle anymore
    > its 3 years old you have to upgrade? When you as a driver know the car
    > is good for another 3 probably 6 years without major items failing?


    They do, it's called the "Factory Warranty" 2 years or 100000kms or
    similar. If you want free support after that, you must pay for it.
    Dave - Dave.net.nz, Jul 21, 2004
    #4
  5. Gurble

    Dogg Guest

    On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 08:32:21 +1200, "Dave - Dave.net.nz"
    <dave@no_spam_here_dave.net.nz> wrote:

    <snippity doo daa>

    > If you want free support after that, you must pay for it.


    Is this an oxymoron?
    Dogg, Jul 21, 2004
    #5
  6. In article <>, "Dave - Dave.net.nz" <dave@no_spam_here_dave.net.nz> was seen to type:
    >thing wrote:
    >> 2) Attitude, customers want to buy what they want when they want to,
    >> imagine if Ford came along and said we wont service your vehicle anymore
    >> its 3 years old you have to upgrade? When you as a driver know the car
    >> is good for another 3 probably 6 years without major items failing?

    >
    >They do, it's called the "Factory Warranty" 2 years or 100000kms or
    >similar. If you want free support after that, you must pay for it.


    Sure. But that said, if there is a design flaw that affects safety,
    the cars get recalled and fixed at no charge :) :)



    Bruce

    ===================================================
    In short, what people think they want is news, but what they really crave
    is olds.
    Lord Vetinari, ¨The Truth¨ Terry Pratchet

    Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups
    (if there were any)
    Bruce Sinclair, Jul 21, 2004
    #6
  7. In article <>, "Dave - Dave.net.nz" <dave@no_spam_here_dave.net.nz> was seen to type:
    >Bruce Sinclair wrote:
    >>>>2) Attitude, customers want to buy what they want when they want to,
    >>>>imagine if Ford came along and said we wont service your vehicle anymore
    >>>>its 3 years old you have to upgrade? When you as a driver know the car
    >>>>is good for another 3 probably 6 years without major items failing?

    >
    >>>They do, it's called the "Factory Warranty" 2 years or 100000kms or
    >>>similar. If you want free support after that, you must pay for it.

    >
    >> Sure. But that said, if there is a design flaw that affects safety,
    >> the cars get recalled and fixed at no charge :) :)

    >
    >or they tell you not to drive at excessive speed(mitsi?)


    :) IIRC they did eventually fix the problem tho :)


    Bruce

    ===================================================
    In short, what people think they want is news, but what they really crave
    is olds.
    Lord Vetinari, ¨The Truth¨ Terry Pratchet

    Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups
    (if there were any)
    Bruce Sinclair, Jul 21, 2004
    #7
  8. "Gurble" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > Last time I was at a Microsoft presentation, Brett (I think it was
    > him, anyway) invited everyone to email sales questions to an email
    > address that I can't remember anymore. These were in relation to
    > helping us sell Windows over Linux etc.
    >
    > So here goes. I thought I'd ask on a public forum, as I'm sure many
    > others here are interested as well:
    >
    > I'd really be interested in Microsofts and/or your justification for
    > charging for CALs.
    >
    > The way I see it, you pay for Windows Server, pay for Windows on the
    > workstations, then you have to pay again to actually connect the two!
    > Surely if you own the server and the workstations, you should be able
    > to do as you please, including connecting YOUR workstations to YOUR
    > server?
    >
    > The only reason I bring this up is that I was asked by one of our
    > clients, who is looking at spending several thousand dollars on
    > Windows Server and XP Pro licenses, and wasn't very impressed when I
    > politely informed him that he'd have to spend another thousand or so
    > on CALs - and especially the fact they are just a piece of paper
    > saying you can connect to the server, rather than anything tangible.
    >
    > Your thoughts?


    I was working in reseller land when Microsoft introduced the concept of
    CAL's (in the mid 90's IIRC). Prior to then companies such as Novell etc
    charged $x for a server and it didn't matter if you were connecting 1 user
    or 1000, the price was the same. I had several customers at the time who
    disliked the Novell licensing model and thought the CAL model (i.e. "pay for
    what you use") was a far better idea so I am guessing that the model was
    introduced as a competitive differentiator. The key thing here is to look at
    the overall picture i.e. "what does it cost me to hook up a given number of
    clients to a given server ?" and compare that cost across competing
    products. For all of those people who harbour the perception that switching
    to Linux makes sense because it saves on upfront licensing costs you might
    be interested in reading this:

    http://download.microsoft.com/download/7/3/9/739c7ab3-25c4-4b8c-9680-81ae10573b9d/BearingPoint.doc

    I did some numbers a while back and it worked out that an average small
    business in NZ running Windows XP Pro, Office 2003 Pro and Small Business
    Server is paying around $1 per day per user for our software. I think that's
    pretty reasonable especially when it's compared to the cost of other
    business tools such as cellphones.

    By the way, the email alias you wanted was - there are
    a handful of people on this end of that alias and I'm one of them. Response
    times tend to be less than 24 hours (assuming the right questions have been
    asked in the original email)

    HTH

    Brett Roberts
    Microsoft NZ
    Brett Roberts, Jul 21, 2004
    #8
  9. Gurble

    Chris Guest

    thing <> wrote in
    news:hizLc.9695$:


    > 3) While MS has some nice flashy products fundementally thier products
    > are still flaky and a security hazard. So stability and security REALLY
    > have to become a priority. The likes of sophos and samantec have built a
    > nice fat business on anti-virus ware, yet that is still reactive and not
    > pro-active....
    >
    > regards
    >
    > Thing
    >
    >

    Just to go OT for a moment, I bought a copy of V-Com system Suite last week
    and found that they use Linux on the Boot CD image you can burn to run
    their recovery apps from the CD, though this didn't get aroound my earlier
    problem regarding making bootable CD's

    I consider buying this kind of S/ware as *part* of the cost of buying a new
    PC (running a windows OS).
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >




    --
    Chris

    "Two men walk into a bar. You'd think the second one would've ducked..."
    Chris, Jul 21, 2004
    #9
  10. Gurble

    AD. Guest

    On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 09:25:31 +1200, Dogg wrote:

    > On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 08:32:21 +1200, "Dave - Dave.net.nz"
    > <dave@no_spam_here_dave.net.nz> wrote:
    >
    > <snippity doo daa>
    >
    >> If you want free support after that, you must pay for it.

    >
    > Is this an oxymoron?


    Then again the free support you got earlier was factored into the purchase
    price so you still paid for it anyway :)

    Cheers
    Anton
    AD., Jul 21, 2004
    #10
  11. Dogg wrote:
    > <snippity doo daa>
    >>If you want free support after that, you must pay for it.


    > Is this an oxymoron?


    yes, indeed it is.

    what I meant was if you want "free" support for your product, you must
    buy the new product.
    Dave - Dave.net.nz, Jul 21, 2004
    #11
  12. Bruce Sinclair wrote:
    >>>2) Attitude, customers want to buy what they want when they want to,
    >>>imagine if Ford came along and said we wont service your vehicle anymore
    >>>its 3 years old you have to upgrade? When you as a driver know the car
    >>>is good for another 3 probably 6 years without major items failing?


    >>They do, it's called the "Factory Warranty" 2 years or 100000kms or
    >>similar. If you want free support after that, you must pay for it.


    > Sure. But that said, if there is a design flaw that affects safety,
    > the cars get recalled and fixed at no charge :) :)


    or they tell you not to drive at excessive speed(mitsi?)
    Dave - Dave.net.nz, Jul 21, 2004
    #12
  13. Gurble

    theseus Guest

    Brett Roberts wrote:

    >
    >

    http://download.microsoft.com/download/7/3/9/739c7ab3-25c4-4b8c-9680-81ae10573b9d/BearingPoint.doc
    >
    > I did some numbers a while back and it worked out that an average
    > small business in NZ running Windows XP Pro, Office 2003 Pro and
    > Small Business Server is paying around $1 per day per user for our
    > software. I think that's pretty reasonable especially when it's
    > compared to the cost of other business tools such as cellphones.
    > HTH


    We're a good customer of yours, we use your desktop software and 2003
    server.
    We also use Debian samba apache qmail poptop etc, its trouble free and easy
    to admin.
    I can't think of many other businesses where a local vendor vociferously
    criticizes their clients informed choices so often.
    Its immature, patronising and arrogant.
    There are enough bloody Wintrolls sledging Linux without you jumping on the
    bandwagon, its counterproductive to my attitude to Microsoft for sure.
    Leave it to monkeyman and St Bill
    theseus, Jul 22, 2004
    #13
  14. Gurble

    Ryan Jacobs Guest

    "theseus" <> wrote in message
    news:b8DLc.9738$...
    > Brett Roberts wrote:
    >
    > >
    > >

    >

    http://download.microsoft.com/download/7/3/9/739c7ab3-25c4-4b8c-9680-81ae10573b9d/BearingPoint.doc
    > >
    > > I did some numbers a while back and it worked out that an average
    > > small business in NZ running Windows XP Pro, Office 2003 Pro and
    > > Small Business Server is paying around $1 per day per user for our
    > > software. I think that's pretty reasonable especially when it's
    > > compared to the cost of other business tools such as cellphones.
    > > HTH

    >
    > We're a good customer of yours, we use your desktop software and 2003
    > server.
    > We also use Debian samba apache qmail poptop etc, its trouble free and

    easy
    > to admin.
    > I can't think of many other businesses where a local vendor vociferously
    > criticizes their clients informed choices so often.
    > Its immature, patronising and arrogant.
    > There are enough bloody Wintrolls sledging Linux without you jumping on

    the
    > bandwagon, its counterproductive to my attitude to Microsoft for sure.
    > Leave it to monkeyman and St Bill
    >
    >


    Are you serious? How was he "jumping on the bandwagon"? He was asked a
    question (refer subject line), he answered the question!

    And for the record - the sledging is *mostly* conducted by the pro Linux
    brigade.

    And you call him "immature, patronising and arrogant"! Take a close look in
    the mirror.

    RJ out.
    Ryan Jacobs, Jul 22, 2004
    #14
  15. Gurble

    E. Scrooge Guest

    "theseus" <> wrote in message
    news:b8DLc.9738$...
    > Brett Roberts wrote:
    >
    > >
    > >

    >

    http://download.microsoft.com/download/7/3/9/739c7ab3-25c4-4b8c-9680-81ae105
    73b9d/BearingPoint.doc
    > >
    > > I did some numbers a while back and it worked out that an average
    > > small business in NZ running Windows XP Pro, Office 2003 Pro and
    > > Small Business Server is paying around $1 per day per user for our
    > > software. I think that's pretty reasonable especially when it's
    > > compared to the cost of other business tools such as cellphones.
    > > HTH

    >
    > We're a good customer of yours, we use your desktop software and 2003
    > server.
    > We also use Debian samba apache qmail poptop etc, its trouble free and

    easy
    > to admin.
    > I can't think of many other businesses where a local vendor vociferously
    > criticizes their clients informed choices so often.
    > Its immature, patronising and arrogant.
    > There are enough bloody Wintrolls sledging Linux without you jumping on

    the
    > bandwagon, its counterproductive to my attitude to Microsoft for sure.
    > Leave it to monkeyman and St Bill


    There's no need to advertise the fact that you're a stupid tosser.

    Brett took the time to reply to a post that the author of the post had
    requested him to do so. If you don't like it, tough fucking luck.

    E. Scrooge
    E. Scrooge, Jul 22, 2004
    #15
  16. Gurble

    theseus Guest

    Ryan Jacobs wrote:
    > "theseus" <> wrote in message
    > news:b8DLc.9738$...
    >> Brett Roberts wrote:
    >>
    >>>
    >>>

    >>

    >

    http://download.microsoft.com/download/7/3/9/739c7ab3-25c4-4b8c-9680-81ae10573b9d/BearingPoint.doc
    >>>
    >>> I did some numbers a while back and it worked out that an average
    >>> small business in NZ running Windows XP Pro, Office 2003 Pro and
    >>> Small Business Server is paying around $1 per day per user for our
    >>> software. I think that's pretty reasonable especially when it's
    >>> compared to the cost of other business tools such as cellphones.
    >>> HTH

    >>
    >> We're a good customer of yours, we use your desktop software and 2003
    >> server.
    >> We also use Debian samba apache qmail poptop etc, its trouble free
    >> and easy to admin.
    >> I can't think of many other businesses where a local vendor
    >> vociferously criticizes their clients informed choices so often.
    >> Its immature, patronising and arrogant.
    >> There are enough bloody Wintrolls sledging Linux without you jumping
    >> on the bandwagon, its counterproductive to my attitude to Microsoft
    >> for sure. Leave it to monkeyman and St Bill
    >>
    >>

    >
    > Are you serious? How was he "jumping on the bandwagon"? He was asked a
    > question (refer subject line), he answered the question!
    >
    > And for the record - the sledging is *mostly* conducted by the pro
    > Linux brigade.
    >
    > And you call him "immature, patronising and arrogant"! Take a close
    > look in the mirror.
    >
    > RJ out.


    I see a Microsoft customer when I look in the mirror.
    I see Divine and steve sledging Microsoft.
    I see a lot more Linux newsreader headers here than that.
    I don't see any Linux vendors like Asterisk popping up here to lay down
    astroturf like Nathan and Brett.
    theseus, Jul 22, 2004
    #16
  17. Gurble

    JohnO Guest

    "theseus" <> wrote in message
    news:JEDLc.9748$...
    > Ryan Jacobs wrote:
    > > "theseus" <> wrote in message
    > > news:b8DLc.9738$...
    > >> Brett Roberts wrote:
    > >>
    > >>>
    > >>>
    > >>

    > >

    >

    http://download.microsoft.com/download/7/3/9/739c7ab3-25c4-4b8c-9680-81ae10573b9d/BearingPoint.doc
    > >>>
    > >>> I did some numbers a while back and it worked out that an average
    > >>> small business in NZ running Windows XP Pro, Office 2003 Pro and
    > >>> Small Business Server is paying around $1 per day per user for our
    > >>> software. I think that's pretty reasonable especially when it's
    > >>> compared to the cost of other business tools such as cellphones.
    > >>> HTH
    > >>
    > >> We're a good customer of yours, we use your desktop software and 2003
    > >> server.
    > >> We also use Debian samba apache qmail poptop etc, its trouble free
    > >> and easy to admin.
    > >> I can't think of many other businesses where a local vendor
    > >> vociferously criticizes their clients informed choices so often.
    > >> Its immature, patronising and arrogant.
    > >> There are enough bloody Wintrolls sledging Linux without you jumping
    > >> on the bandwagon, its counterproductive to my attitude to Microsoft
    > >> for sure. Leave it to monkeyman and St Bill
    > >>
    > >>

    > >
    > > Are you serious? How was he "jumping on the bandwagon"? He was asked a
    > > question (refer subject line), he answered the question!
    > >
    > > And for the record - the sledging is *mostly* conducted by the pro
    > > Linux brigade.
    > >
    > > And you call him "immature, patronising and arrogant"! Take a close
    > > look in the mirror.
    > >
    > > RJ out.

    >
    > I see a Microsoft customer when I look in the mirror.
    > I see Divine and steve sledging Microsoft.
    > I see a lot more Linux newsreader headers here than that.
    > I don't see any Linux vendors like Asterisk popping up here to lay down
    > astroturf like Nathan and Brett.
    >


    Theseus - I hink you've misinterpreted someone else's post as Brett's. I've
    never seen him post anything even close to sledging Linux. He's been in here
    posing useful helpful stuff without getting nasty. If fact if anything he's
    a bloody shining beacon compared to the usual miscreants in this ng.

    And BTW, I'm a Linux home user fan who uses Windows at work cause that's
    where my bread is buttered.
    JohnO, Jul 22, 2004
    #17
  18. Gurble

    Ryan Jacobs Guest

    "theseus" <> wrote in message
    news:JEDLc.9748$...
    > Ryan Jacobs wrote:
    > > "theseus" <> wrote in message
    > > news:b8DLc.9738$...
    > >> Brett Roberts wrote:
    > >>
    > >>>
    > >>>
    > >>

    > >

    >

    http://download.microsoft.com/download/7/3/9/739c7ab3-25c4-4b8c-9680-81ae10573b9d/BearingPoint.doc
    > >>>
    > >>> I did some numbers a while back and it worked out that an average
    > >>> small business in NZ running Windows XP Pro, Office 2003 Pro and
    > >>> Small Business Server is paying around $1 per day per user for our
    > >>> software. I think that's pretty reasonable especially when it's
    > >>> compared to the cost of other business tools such as cellphones.
    > >>> HTH
    > >>
    > >> We're a good customer of yours, we use your desktop software and 2003
    > >> server.
    > >> We also use Debian samba apache qmail poptop etc, its trouble free
    > >> and easy to admin.
    > >> I can't think of many other businesses where a local vendor
    > >> vociferously criticizes their clients informed choices so often.
    > >> Its immature, patronising and arrogant.
    > >> There are enough bloody Wintrolls sledging Linux without you jumping
    > >> on the bandwagon, its counterproductive to my attitude to Microsoft
    > >> for sure. Leave it to monkeyman and St Bill
    > >>
    > >>

    > >
    > > Are you serious? How was he "jumping on the bandwagon"? He was asked a
    > > question (refer subject line), he answered the question!
    > >
    > > And for the record - the sledging is *mostly* conducted by the pro
    > > Linux brigade.
    > >
    > > And you call him "immature, patronising and arrogant"! Take a close
    > > look in the mirror.
    > >
    > > RJ out.

    >
    > I see a Microsoft customer when I look in the mirror.


    Are you sure you don't see rage and anger?

    > I see Divine and steve sledging Microsoft.


    And others.......

    > I see a lot more Linux newsreader headers here than that.
    > I don't see any Linux vendors like Asterisk popping up here to lay down
    > astroturf like Nathan and Brett.


    Are you saying that MS are wilfully stopping Linux vendors from posting
    here? Don't answer that because obviously the answer is no.

    The simple fact is that *some* Linux users are giving the platform a bad
    name because of their anger & rage at MS - which is manifested by often
    un-informed and emotionally clouded viewpoints.

    RJ out.
    Ryan Jacobs, Jul 22, 2004
    #18
  19. Gurble

    AD. Guest

    On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 09:55:45 +1200, Brett Roberts wrote:

    > For all of those people who harbour the perception
    > that switching to Linux makes sense because it saves on upfront licensing
    > costs you might be interested in reading this:
    >
    > http://download.microsoft.com/download/7/3/9/739c7ab3-25c4-4b8c-9680-81ae10573b9d/BearingPoint.doc


    I would like to thank both Brett and Nathan for posting links recently
    that show how Debian really is the best choice of Linux distros.

    Yes, that was tongue in cheek ;)

    Cheers
    Anton

    PS anyone who doesn't like CALs can just buy per processor licenses :)

    I can sympathise with MS - we have similar headaches figuring out server
    and user licensing schemes for our product.
    AD., Jul 22, 2004
    #19
  20. AD. wrote:
    > PS anyone who doesn't like CALs can just buy per processor licenses :)


    heh.

    > I can sympathise with MS - we have similar headaches figuring out server
    > and user licensing schemes for our product.


    what is it?
    If you dont mind me asking.
    Dave - Dave.net.nz, Jul 22, 2004
    #20
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